No, The Model 3 Isn't An Upgrade To the Model S

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You mean you think a $100k car is competitive with a $30k ATS? And somehow you are knocking Cadillac for that?

Compared to other $50 - $70k vehicles, I think the Continental is very strong. I don't want to be like @smk4565 who tries to compare every freaking vehicle to a $150lk S56 SMG Designo Edition and expect vehicles 1/3 of the price to match it. 

A Model S interior is on par with a Corvette or CTS, if you like technology and touchscreens it is better, if you like wood trim on doors, maybe a nod to the CTS, so to each their own.   Model S isn't a $100k sedan interior, but it selling performance and quietness and no gasoline, so they can get by with a $60k car interior.

Continental's interior isn't better than any of the German 3, it isn't better than the CT6, not better than a Genesis G90, not better than an S90.  So it is like the worst interior of the $50-70k segment.  It is better than a Lexus GS, so maybe 2nd worst interior in the segment.  Worst chassis for sure.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Like you, that wasnt my goal either.

Further down in the thread after that post you quoted, you get a glimpse of my thought process. And yes, I do think the Continental's interior is fine in its price range...

Why I am whining?

Its because I kinda wished Lincoln (and Cadillac) dont only give us "just fine for their price range", I want Lincoln (and Cadillac) to punch ABOVE their price  range to REALLY WOO badge snobs...or at least match Audi because Audi, in my opinion, are the industry leaders in their interiors no matter what price range we are talking about. And the Continental does not match up to a comparable Audi.

As for Tesla, high tech wizardry gives them a pass in that regard.

HOWEVER, soon, as other brands delve into EVs, Tesla better start investing in their interiors as many would not be as forgivable  as they are now concerning the interiors as their tech advantage wont longer be.

100% correct.  When Audi and Mercedes are selling EV's and get them to production quicker than Tesla, and have better interiors than Tesla, then Tesla has a fight on their hands.  So it will be interesting to see how they respond to direct competition.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

100% correct.  When Audi and Mercedes are selling EV's and get them to production quicker than Tesla, and have better interiors than Tesla, then Tesla has a fight on their hands.  So it will be interesting to see how they respond to direct competition.

well, what is worrying me is that Musk did say that a Model S replacement is not in the works.

But he did go on record saying that an urban pick-up truck is on its way.

And he did say that Model 3 suitors are confusing the model as a Model S upgrade...

Whether that last part is true or what Balthy and Fappy suggested is more on point, the end result does NOT bode well for the Model S as I fear it will be left to rot on the vine...

 

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A Model S interior is on par with a Corvette or CTS, if you like technology and touchscreens it is better, if you like wood trim on doors, maybe a nod to the CTS, so to each their own.   Model S isn't a $100k sedan interior, but it selling performance and quietness and no gasoline, so they can get by with a $60k car interior.

Continental's interior isn't better than any of the German 3, it isn't better than the CT6, not better than a Genesis G90, not better than an S90.  So it is like the worst interior of the $50-70k segment.  It is better than a Lexus GS, so maybe 2nd worst interior in the segment.  Worst chassis for sure.

See these are the dumb comparisons that C&G exists to combat.  The G90 base price is $24,000 more than the base price of the Continental.  The CT6 is $10k more than the Continental and the CT6 product mix is heavily skewed towards the mid to high trims (they're intentionally not building many of the 2.0T RWD models) pushing its real-world base price even higher. 

The models you should have chosen were CTS, G80, and A6.  Compared to those, the Continental is quite competitive. 

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

well, what is worrying me is that Musk did say that a Model S replacement is not in the works.

But he did go on record saying that an urban pick-up truck is on its way.

And he did say that Model 3 suitors are confusing the model as a Model S upgrade...

Whether that last part is true or what Balthy and Fappy suggested is more on point, the end result does NOT bode well for the Model S as I fear it will be left to rot on the vine...

 

Telsa does running upgrades on their models over time.  I don't see a need for a full Model-S replacement, but they could do a refresh on it... give it a new interior that sort of thing.  

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

100% correct.  When Audi and Mercedes are selling EV's and get them to production quicker than Tesla, and have better interiors than Tesla, then Tesla has a fight on their hands.  So it will be interesting to see how they respond to direct competition.

More interesting is who will end up owning Tesla when other Auto companies deliver Equal or Better EV's and Tesla needs a White Night to save them.

[oldshurst442]

9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Telsa does running upgrades on their models over time.  I don't see a need for a full Model-S replacement, but they could do a refresh on it... give it a new interior that sort of thing.  

Yes. Upgrades happen frequently. Its awesome how this is a thing!

But, Im almost certain that others will follow that same path and copy Tesla with the internet/WI-FI/Windows style computer upgrades.

So...

The Model S is still a sexy car and the refresh they did on it last year to bring it to the new face of Tesla styling ala  Model X and 3 just makes the car sexier and keeps it fresh and relevant!

But like an iPhone, they may need a complete overhaul of the bodyshell to be able to stay current!

Henri Ford reluctantly changed his Model T after 2 decades and he needed to, somehow 2017 is not like 1917....we are a fickle society today where we need change often in regards to our toys because eventually, all cars will upgrade themselves via Wi-Fi and its back to square 1...

The newest, shiniest toy gets the praises and the sales!

 

[Drew Dowdell]

41 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

OK.. I agree on the manufacturing process, but when I speak of the Astra.. for Pontiac (we aren't talking Chevy).. the so-called "excitement division".. I was speaking of the VXR/OPC editions

That was never the Vibe's purpose.  It was meant to be an outdoorsy small crossover kinda along the lines of a Subaru Impreza Outback. Excitement can be more than just speed and handling.  Keep in mind some of the other products at Pontiac at the time, the Aztek (for all its warts, was actually a surprisingly good off-roader for being a chopped up mini-van, and offered a tent option, and had one of the best AWD systems offered at the time), and the cladded Montana, which also offered AWD. 

Pontiac was attempting to offer two forms off excitement in those days.... on-road performance or off-road adventure.  As a strategy, I could see it working.  It was in the execution where they failed. 

[G. David Felt]

27 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

well, what is worrying me is that Musk did say that a Model S replacement is not in the works.

But he did go on record saying that an urban pick-up truck is on its way.

And he did say that Model 3 suitors are confusing the model as a Model S upgrade...

Whether that last part is true or what Balthy and Fappy suggested is more on point, the end result does NOT bode well for the Model S as I fear it will be left to rot on the vine...

 

Musk could already be thinking of more main stream as he starts his plan for a white night to buy Tesla.

I think there is great value in an EV Pickup, but leaving the S to rot and not have an update is a big miss with so many EV auto company startups going after the 100K EV auto purchase crowd.

[A Horse With No Name]

24 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Musk could already be thinking of more main stream as he starts his plan for a white night to buy Tesla.

 

The French seem like a logical choice to me for a number of reasons.

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Telsa does running upgrades on their models over time.  I don't see a need for a full Model-S replacement, but they could do a refresh on it... give it a new interior that sort of thing.  

Those only go so far. Tesla was awesome when first out, but the style is very dated and bland and Tesla needs to bring some excitement back to the body of the Tesla S.

Time for Tesla S to go 2.0 version with a body refresh on top of an interior major update.

[Drew Dowdell]

43 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Musk could already be thinking of more main stream as he starts his plan for a white night to buy Tesla.

I think there is great value in an EV Pickup, but leaving the S to rot and not have an update is a big miss with so many EV auto company startups going after the 100K EV auto purchase crowd.

I don't see Musk's ego allowing him to give up control of Tesla or SpaceX or SolarCity (which is now part of Tesla anyway).  He's not going to sell... and he's got the cash to push forward with more investment if he wants to.   Plus, for now... he's the darling of the stock market and can issue more stock if he wants to. 

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't see Musk's ego allowing him to give up control of Tesla or SpaceX or SolarCity (which is now part of Tesla anyway).  He's not going to sell... and he's got the cash to push forward with more investment if he wants to.   Plus, for now... he's the darling of the stock market and can issue more stock if he wants to. 

Someone asked me if I thought Tesla was a smart investment. I said no, over priced and I really do not see it as a smart investment for people with limited sources of cash. Yes for the very wealthy, but not the little guy.

I truly hope Tesla survives, but I do question if it can.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

One of the original reasons I pushed C&G from just being a forum and into a review site was after I read two articles on C&D.  One where they knocked a Buick Lucerne for its slalom capabilities compared to a BMW..... and another where the Aveo's 0-60 time was being criticized... and at the time it was the least expensive car on the market.  We review cars specifically to avoid dumb comparisons like those.  

Excellent point.  You have to review cars for intended purpose.  A Lucerne should be reviewed for how well does it haul old folks to bingo.  It isn't a performance car.  It should be compared to handling and ride of an Avalon.  

For the Continental though, it can't match performance with any other $50-70k luxury car, so it better smoke them in interior and it does not.  To comment on your later post, I'll give you that Continental better lines up price wise with CTS, G80 and A6, S90 also, but I think the only one it beats in that group is G80, it is maybe equal to a CTS, it isn't better than the A6 which is old.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Excellent point.  You have to review cars for intended purpose.  A Lucerne should be reviewed for how well does it haul old folks to bingo.  It isn't a performance car.  It should be compared to handling and ride of an Avalon.  

For the Continental though, it can't match performance with any other $50-70k luxury car, so it better smoke them in interior and it does not.  To comment on your later post, I'll give you that Continental better lines up price wise with CTS, G80 and A6, S90 also, but I think the only one it beats in that group is G80, it is maybe equal to a CTS, it isn't better than the A6 which is old.

A base A6 is rather spartan inside. I'd put the Continental slightly higher than the CTS right now... primarily because of the CTS's center stack and the capacitive touch controls.  For comfort concerned drivers, that better interior goes to the Continental over the CTS hands down.

You keep looking at the Continental as a $50k luxury car.... it's not.  It bases at $44k.  That's mid-range C-Class over at Benz, and even if you bump it up to $53k looking at E-Class you're in a taxi-cab that you can't even plug your iPhone into with spending an extra $45 for a cable. $53k gets an AWD Turbo V6 Continental with leather compared to a RWD Turbo-4 E-Class with plastic seats.  If you have $53k in your pocket to spend... and not a penny more... the Continental gives you more performance and more luxury.  Period. 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The models you should have chosen were CTS, G80, and A6.  Compared to those, the Continental is quite competitive. 

Like the 300 the Conti is really starting to get under my skin a bit. Not so sure Ford doesn't have a winner here.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A base A6 is rather spartan inside. I'd put the Continental slightly higher than the CTS right now... primarily because of the CTS's center stack and the capacitive touch controls.  For comfort concerned drivers, that better interior goes to the Continental over the CTS hands down.

You keep looking at the Continental as a $50k luxury car.... it's not.  It bases at $44k.  That's mid-range C-Class over at Benz, and even if you bump it up to $53k looking at E-Class you're in a taxi-cab that you can't even plug your iPhone into with spending an extra $45 for a cable. $53k gets an AWD Turbo V6 Continental with leather compared to a RWD Turbo-4 E-Class with plastic seats.  If you have $53k in your pocket to spend... and not a penny more... the Continental gives you more performance and more luxury.  Period. 

A C-class has a better interior than a Continental though, unless you are talking rear seat room.  CTS does have a bad center stack, Continental has a bit more in luxury than CTS, but CTS has it in chassis and transmission, call the engines a tie without the V.  You can run a Continental up to $70k, that is a well equipped E-class.  I'd still take the A6 which is from 2012 I think over a Continental interior.  

Plus the Fusion underpinnings and 6-speed auto from 2010 are huge down grades to the Continental.  With how little they spent on the mechanicals, the Continental should have an A8 level interior because they $25k sedan under pinnings.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Like the 300 the Conti is really starting to get under my skin a bit. Not so sure Ford doesn't have a winner here.

They don't, the 400 hp twin turbo V6 does 0-60 in 5.4 seconds.   The base V6 must be lethargic.   The E-class V6 does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.  Gets better gas mileage too.  And I know, the Continental isn't about performance, it is about "quiet luxury"  but an E-class is quieter than it (63 DBA at 70 mph vs 67 in the Lincoln), and has air suspension.  Give the Continental another year and it will be a fleet car like the MKS or Town Car were.  The Continental should be priced like a Lexus ES, more like $38k base and $55k for a loaded 400 hp Black Label with free maintenance.  Then maybe it is a worthwhile buy.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

They don't, the 400 hp twin turbo V6 does 0-60 in 5.4 seconds.   The base V6 must be lethargic.   The E-class V6 does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.  Gets better gas mileage too.  And I know, the Continental isn't about performance, it is about "quiet luxury"  but an E-class is quieter than it (63 DBA at 70 mph vs 67 in the Lincoln), and has air suspension.  Give the Continental another year and it will be a fleet car like the MKS or Town Car were.  The Continental should be priced like a Lexus ES, more like $38k base and $55k for a loaded 400 hp Black Label with free maintenance.  Then maybe it is a worthwhile buy.

It is gaining market share quite nicely actually.

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A base A6 is rather spartan inside. I'd put the Continental slightly higher than the CTS right now... primarily because of the CTS's center stack and the capacitive touch controls.  For comfort concerned drivers, that better interior goes to the Continental over the CTS hands down.

You keep looking at the Continental as a $50k luxury car.... it's not.  It bases at $44k.  That's mid-range C-Class over at Benz, and even if you bump it up to $53k looking at E-Class you're in a taxi-cab that you can't even plug your iPhone into with spending an extra $45 for a cable. $53k gets an AWD Turbo V6 Continental with leather compared to a RWD Turbo-4 E-Class with plastic seats.  If you have $53k in your pocket to spend... and not a penny more... the Continental gives you more performance and more luxury.  Period. 

And it is actually a little bit more unique.  Hate to say this, but given the choice I might choose the Lincoln over the Benz.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A C-class has a better interior than a Continental though, unless you are talking rear seat room.  CTS does have a bad center stack, Continental has a bit more in luxury than CTS, but CTS has it in chassis and transmission, call the engines a tie without the V.  You can run a Continental up to $70k, that is a well equipped E-class.  I'd still take the A6 which is from 2012 I think over a Continental interior.  

Plus the Fusion underpinnings and 6-speed auto from 2010 are huge down grades to the Continental.  With how little they spent on the mechanicals, the Continental should have an A8 level interior because they $25k sedan under pinnings.

 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

They don't, the 400 hp twin turbo V6 does 0-60 in 5.4 seconds.   The base V6 must be lethargic.   The E-class V6 does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.  Gets better gas mileage too.  And I know, the Continental isn't about performance, it is about "quiet luxury"  but an E-class is quieter than it (63 DBA at 70 mph vs 67 in the Lincoln), and has air suspension.  Give the Continental another year and it will be a fleet car like the MKS or Town Car were.  The Continental should be priced like a Lexus ES, more like $38k base and $55k for a loaded 400 hp Black Label with free maintenance.  Then maybe it is a worthwhile buy.

No one buying comfort cruisers cases about the 0-60 as long as it is sufficient.... anything under 6.0 is more than enough.

The C-Class is just too small for it's price to be a comfort cruiser.  Someone looking for a Continental size car wouldn't give the C-Class a second glance. 

[smk4565]

25 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

No one buying comfort cruisers cases about the 0-60 as long as it is sufficient.... anything under 6.0 is more than enough.

The C-Class is just too small for it's price to be a comfort cruiser.  Someone looking for a Continental size car wouldn't give the C-Class a second glance. 

Agreed, if someone wants a large car they don't going to buy an A4 or C-class.  But the Continental is supposed to sell based on interior, ride quality and being quiet.  It isn't that quite and it rides on a Fusion chassis.  So the interior better be amazing, and it isn't.  The XTS is just as nice and well made as a Continental, and the XTS is dated and has one wheel in the grave.

Edited May 6, 2017 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Like Mercedes, Ford utilizes global platforms for their cars. You keep saying 'Fusion chassis' but the CD4 platform underpins numerous Ford & Lincoln cars, CUVs and SUVs. Long utilized by domestic makes and just recently, copied by the Germans as 'the wave of the future'.

The A6 interior is an aesthetic hot mess- it has FOUR different shaped vents in the dash. A schizophrenic's comfort zone is every other man's visual disaster. Besides, half of the audi lineup uses VW engines (2.0T). Hard pass on audi.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Agreed, if someone wants a large car they don't going to buy an A4 or C-class.  But the Continental is supposed to sell based on interior, ride quality and being quiet.  It isn't that quite and it rides on a Fusion chassis.  So the interior better be amazing, and it isn't.  The XTS is just as nice and well made as a Continental, and the XTS is dated and has one wheel in the grave.

Now you're just making stuff up to knock the Americans. I like the XTS a lot, you know that, but I'm still willing to concede that the Continental has a better interior.

[A Horse With No Name]

33 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Now you're just making stuff up to knock the Americans. I like the XTS a lot, you know that, but I'm still willing to concede that the Continental has a better interior.

The whole one brand wonder way of. thinking wears old rather rápidly!

[smk4565]

I'd like it if Lincoln made a great Continental but they didn't.  The last Lincoln product that was a hit was the Navigator in 1998 and then fumbled that after about 5 years and haven't done anything since.  

So back to Tesla this is a reason I think they will surpass Lincoln around 2020, or when ever Tesla gets their 2nd SUV out.  Once they have 2 sedans and 2 SUV they will beat Lincoln and never look back.

[oldshurst442]

On 2017-05-04 at 8:28 PM, balthazar said:

I want to know why I haven't heard complaints about the Model S's door handles- the metal face of them is usually quite wavy and being chrome; quite noticeable.

 

On 2017-05-04 at 8:38 PM, oldshurst442 said:

I will take a look at my partner's Model S to see if this phenomenon is present on his car. I will report on Saturday or Sunday.

I never noticed anything and he never told me about it.

I took a look at the door handles today and no such waving or warping or whatever on his P85D.

I asked him about it and the only anomaly he had on them was a recall.

He told me that on some Model S' they wouldnt slide open....not on his though!

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by oldshurst442