No, The Model 3 Isn't An Upgrade To the Model S

[William Maley]

Tesla held their first quarter earnings call yesterday. The company reported revenue in the quarter that more than doubled and that they are on track on getting the Model 3 in production in July. But this was overshadowed by some comments made by CEO Elon Musk.

"We have seen some impact of Model S orders as a function of people being confused" that Model 3 is the upgrade to Model S, Musk said on a conference call.

Yes, it seems some of Tesla's prospective buyers believe the new Model 3 - the upcoming entry-level model - is the replacement for the Model S. This misconception has likely risen as Tesla has been promoting this vehicle since last July. Tesla's worry is that this misconception will draw people away from the Model S.

"We want to be super clear that Model 3 is not version three of our car. Model 3 is essentially a smaller, more affordable version of the Model S with fewer features," said Musk.

"The Model S will be better than Model 3. As it should be, as it's a more expensive car."

Sadly, customer deposits in the first quarter don't reflect that. Deposits on the Model S and X dropped 7 percent.

Source: Reuters

View full article

[A Horse With No Name]

Hope they survive....not optimistic.

[G. David Felt]

I think many of the beta, bleeding edge buyers are done and now mainstream customers want the Tesla EV as a Tesla 3 price but at a feature function of Tesla S.

Next 2-3 years are going to be very interesting.

[oldshurst442]

@balthazar

This article proves your point even further!!!

I concede ENTIRELY my position I held and Im more in line with yours!

 

What is troubling me more is this:

Quote

 

"We have seen some impact of Model S orders as a function of people being confused" that Model 3 is the upgrade to Model S, Musk said on a conference call.

Yes, it seems some of Tesla's prospective buyers believe the new Model 3 - the upcoming entry-level model - is the replacement for the Model S.

 

(Not the fact that the misconception exists)

But:

In today's so-called "information age" where information is literally at a touch of a button...people are MISINIMFORMED about ANYTHING MORE THAN EVER IN HISTORY OF MAN-KIND!!! (an exaggeration yes...its my dramatic Greek heritage!)

How the HELL could people be so misinformed is beyond my comprehension...

 

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

@balthazar

This article proves your point even further!!!

I concede ENTIRELY my position I held and Im more in line with yours!

 

What is troubling me more is this:

(Not the fact that the misconception exists)

But:

In today's so-called "information age" where information is literally at a touch of a button...people are MISINIMFORMED about ANYTHING MORE THAN EVER IN HISTORY OF MAN-KIND!!! (an exaggeration yes...its my dramatic Greek heritage!)

How the HELL could people be so misinformed is beyond my comprehension...

 

#FakeNews

Someone somewhere said this is the replacement and boom, Lemmings followed off the cliff of stupidity that a cheaper version of the Tesla S was coming with all the Feature / Functions of the S.

  Idiots! 

[smk4565]

I just read a survey that 30 million people say their next car will be electric.  Might take years for those 30 million to buy cars but they are coming.

It is actually very possible that Tesla overtakes Lincoln and Cadillac in 2022 to become the top selling American luxury brand.

[Drew Dowdell]

We live in a world where educated people refuse to vaccinate their kids because Jenny McCarthy says she read somewhere that it might be bad for them. 

[balthazar]

I am suspicious the real reason is 'buyer confusion', as Musk claims. I tend to think Tesla buyers are solidly on the high side of average consumer knowledge- anything markedly different (as Tesla is WRT being an EV) fairly begs a high level of involvement.

What I do believe is more likely is that the Model 3 is cannibalizing the S already, because it's on the threshold of passing from vaporware to reality. ESPECIALLY if a vast swath of buyers are indicating they'll spend $45-55K for a "$35K" car... no doubt some potential S buyers are deciding they can live just fine with a 12-in shorter 'Model S Mini'.

My prediction is that the S is going to fall farther once the 3 is on the dealership floor... to the point that the assumed sales addition of the 3 is going to be a net lower. Couple that with the inevitable production delays of the 3 and Tesla will be way off their claim of 500K units in 2018.

- - - - -

However, if Tesla can get the bulk of 3 buyers in at $50K, perhaps the volume will provide economies of scale and a profit.
Next; probably should fast-track the next gen Model S, then worry about the Model Y after that.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We live in a world where educated people refuse to vaccinate their kids because Jenny McCarthy says she read somewhere that it might be bad for them. 

Jenny McCarthy is everything that is wrong with the country in a nutshell

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I just read a survey that 30 million people say their next car will be electric.  Might take years for those 30 million to buy cars but they are coming.

It is actually very possible that Tesla overtakes Lincoln and Cadillac in 2022 to become the top selling American luxury brand.

Self levitating pigs are also a real possibility.  It might actually save our bacon in terms of luxury cars

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I am suspicious the real reason is 'buyer confusion', as Musk claims. I tend to think Tesla buyers are solidly on the high side of average consumer knowledge- anything markedly different (as Tesla is WRT being an EV) fairly begs a high level of involvement.

What I do believe is more likely is that the Model 3 is cannibalizing the S already, because it's on the threshold of passing from vaporware to reality. ESPECIALLY if a vast swath of buyers are indicating they'll spend $45-55K for a "$35K" car... no doubt some potential S buyers are deciding they can live just fine with a 12-in shorter 'Model S Mini'.

My prediction is that the S is going to fall farther once the 3 is on the dealership floor... to the point that the assumed sales addition of the 3 is going to be a net lower. Couple that with the inevitable production delays of the 3 and Tesla will be way off their claim of 500K units in 2018.

- - - - -

However, if Tesla can get the bulk of 3 buyers in at $50K, perhaps the volume will provide economies of scale and a profit.
Next; probably should fast-track the next gen Model S, then worry about the Model Y after that.

No, they will still be making the claim of 500k cars, it's just that it is going to be the self levitating pigs that are driving them.

[smk4565]

Even if Tesla sells 200k cars and not 500k they are the top American luxury brand.

[FAPTurbo]

no one ordering the model 3 is confused...

buyers are just making the sensible connections that a) a decked out 3 is probably more satisfactory than a 'base' S, b) it's new and cool, and c) tesla's going to put everything they've learned from the S and X into the 3...

[A Horse With No Name]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Even if Tesla sells 200k cars and not 500k they are the top American luxury brand.

That fancy pill you swallowed is a hallucinogenic, apparently.

9 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

no one ordering the model 3 is confused...

buyers are just making the sensible connections that a) a decked out 3 is probably more satisfactory than a 'base' S, b) it's new and cool, and c) tesla's going to put everything they've learned from the S and X into the 3...

Maybe...we have yet to see this thing in production...

[ocnblu]

This substantiates my view on the matter:  Tesla lovers are extremely dim upstairs.

[A Horse With No Name]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Even if Tesla sells 200k cars and not 500k they are the top American luxury brand.

That fancy pill you swallowed is apparently a hallucinogenic.

[FAPTurbo]

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

This substantiates my view on the matter:  Tesla lovers are extremely dim upstairs.

People banking on an indefinite supply of fossil fuels even more so.

3 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

Given the general quality of dialogue here, one might rather ask why lead paint chips taste sweet and why certain posters mistook them for potato chips.

[G. David Felt]

55 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Even if Tesla sells 200k cars and not 500k they are the top American luxury brand.

I have to disagree with you on the Top American Luxury Brand. Maybe a mid luxury brand, but not top. Having been in the Tesla and driven with a number of coworkers who have them, Cadillac, MB and BMW builds a far nicer auto.

30 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

People banking on an indefinite supply of fossil fuels even more so.

Given the general quality of dialogue here, one might rather ask why lead paint chips taste sweet and why certain posters mistook them for potato chips.

You could also say that it is wrong to think that Aluminum makes a good auto material.

[balthazar]

I want to know why I haven't heard complaints about the Model S's door handles- the metal face of them is usually quite wavy and being chrome; quite noticeable.

[oldshurst442]

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I want to know why I haven't heard complaints about the Model S's door handles- the metal face of them is usually quite wavy and being chrome; quite noticeable.

I will take a look at my partner's Model S to see if this phenomenon is present on his car. I will report on Saturday or Sunday.

I never noticed anything and he never told me about it.

[A Horse With No Name]

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I want to know why I haven't heard complaints about the Model S's door handles- the metal face of them is usually quite wavy and being chrome; quite noticeable.

I have been having a pre WW2 classic fetish...those were Luxury cars, the Tesla is but a faint shadow of them in so many more ways than door handles.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, FAPTurbo said:

no one ordering the model 3 is confused...

buyers are just making the sensible connections that a) a decked out 3 is probably more satisfactory than a 'base' S, b) it's new and cool, and c) tesla's going to put everything they've learned from the S and X into the 3...

Logical.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

I am suspicious the real reason is 'buyer confusion', as Musk claims. I tend to think Tesla buyers are solidly on the high side of average consumer knowledge- anything markedly different (as Tesla is WRT being an EV) fairly begs a high level of involvement.

What I do believe is more likely is that the Model 3 is cannibalizing the S already, because it's on the threshold of passing from vaporware to reality. ESPECIALLY if a vast swath of buyers are indicating they'll spend $45-55K for a "$35K" car... no doubt some potential S buyers are deciding they can live just fine with a 12-in shorter 'Model S Mini'.

My prediction is that the S is going to fall farther once the 3 is on the dealership floor... to the point that the assumed sales addition of the 3 is going to be a net lower. Couple that with the inevitable production delays of the 3 and Tesla will be way off their claim of 500K units in 2018.

- - - - -

However, if Tesla can get the bulk of 3 buyers in at $50K, perhaps the volume will provide economies of scale and a profit.
Next; probably should fast-track the next gen Model S, then worry about the Model Y after that.

Logical once more.

[A Horse With No Name]

21 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I have to disagree with you on the Top American Luxury Brand. Maybe a mid luxury brand, but not top. Having been in the Tesla and driven with a number of coworkers who have them, Cadillac, MB and BMW builds a far nicer auto.

The tech is impressive but Tesla is Lincoln or Acura level at the very most.

Edited May 5, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[G. David Felt]

17 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The tech is impressive but Tesla is Lincoln or Acura level at the very most.

Exactly, they have pushed the envelope and surpassed everyone with their Tech, but the refinement still leaves much to be desired.

[smk4565]

42 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The tech is impressive but Tesla is Lincoln or Acura level at the very most.

Telsa sells $100k sedans, something Lincoln or Cadillac are not capable of.  Tesla also makes a car much faster than any Lincoln or Cadillac.  Based on performance and price point, and brand image, they mop the floor with Lincoln or Cadillac.  I don't think Tesla interiors are the end all be all, but they are on par or better than any Lincoln for sure, and I'd say better than most at Cadillac.   

 

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Telsa sells $100k sedans, something Lincoln or Cadillac are not capable of.  Tesla also makes a car much faster than any Lincoln or Cadillac.  Based on performance and price point, and brand image, they mop the floor with Lincoln or Cadillac.  I don't think Tesla interiors are the end all be all, but they are on par or better than any Lincoln for sure, and I'd say better than most at Cadillac.   

 

That last sentence is where you went off the rails. Tesla interiors still feel very kit-car and much of the switchgear is Chrysler based. The $100k Model S 100 has the same switchgear as a Chrysler 200

[balthazar]

And... Cadillac does sell $100K vehicles, this has been pointed out repeatedly.

I just googled pics of the Model S interior. A few were prototype pics, but other were labeled '2013' and '2015'. Some issues visible of fitment and ergonomics, but would have to sit in one personally to make a judgement. I can tell you that I have a hard time getting past that tombstone screen plunked in the middle of the dash like it is. Overall, a nice-enough $60K interior, but it's not where a $100K interior should be (again: via pics).

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That last sentence is where you went off the rails. Tesla interiors still feel very kit-car and much of the switchgear is Chrysler based. The $100k Model S 100 has the same switchgear as a Chrysler 200

I don't think Tesla has $100k car interiors, or even $65k car interiors, but it isn't like the glorified Fusions and Escapes that Lincoln has are setting any new standard.  Even the Continental is pretty weak inside.  The CT6 is nicer than a Model S on the inside.  I do think Tesla needs to improve their interiors, but they are competitive with other American luxury car interiors, maybe just not the top Cadillacs, but the lower Cadillacs.

[balthazar]

Continental certainly is not "weak" inside.

[oldshurst442]

The interior of a Model S...

This discussion reminds me of how many whined about the Corvette's interior all these decades.

Like Balthy said....its a nice enough interior for a 60K car..not for a 100K+ car...

The thing is, like the Vettes of the past, true believers look past that because the real meat of the matter resides what is underneath the body shell....

Nobody buys the Vette for its fine Italian leather appointments...

Nobody buys the Tesla Model S for the pampered Grey Poupon amenities...

 

Its fine just how it is.

It is personalized and it does have the option of opting for a slightly higher quality interior....

I dont know how better it is than the lowest level one as my partner chose the very lowest possible interior option on his P85D and that is the only experience I have with a Model S but to tell you the truth...

Like a C5 or C6 Vette or a Zeta Camaro, it aint as bad as some of us are portraying it to be.

Its OK....nothing special.

But it aint a deal breaker as the tech involved with the Model S more than makes up for the lack of Grey Poupon...

Like a C5 or C6 Vette, its the hardware that makes the car...and that is where the 100K price tag comes in....

Im sure that Tesla could have gone the Pagani or Spyker route and given us handcrafted interiors, but that would also have raised the price tag but about 150%.

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

And... Cadillac does sell $100K vehicles, this has been pointed out repeatedly.

I just googled pics of the Model S interior. A few were prototype pics, but other were labeled '2013' and '2015'. Some issues visible of fitment and ergonomics, but would have to sit in one personally to make a judgement. I can tell you that I have a hard time getting past that tombstone screen plunked in the middle of the dash like it is. Overall, a nice-enough $60K interior, but it's not where a $100K interior should be (again: via pics).

I have sat in a Model S, I thought it was like a nice Volvo or almost a Saab-like in the way that it is modern and simplistic.  But it feels more like a $50-60k car interior, I don't think it is as nice as some Audis, or the E-class or 5-series.  

A Model S P100D starts at $140,000 and runs up to $160,00 if you check all the option boxes.  Cadillac isn't there.  Look at a CT6, base price like $54k and that is their top car.  If you max out the options list on an Escalade you get to $100k, but most luxury brands maxed out are nearing or above $200k.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Continental certainly is not "weak" inside.

That is debatable.

[balthazar]

Let's put it this way; from pics, it looks more upscale & luxurious by far than than the Model S.

[Disclaimer: I have not sat in either.]

[daves87rs]

Not sure I'd call Telsa a luxo car, more like a status car. They won't offer anything any other automaker can do or even improve on (Bolt)

 

That said, I think they will find the niche. They are different from other cars....which can be good in sometimes boring field....

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Let's put it this way; from pics, it looks more upscale & luxurious by far than than the Model S.

[Disclaimer: I have not sat in either.]

Id say the Continental's interior is more refined than the Model S.

But then again, it ought to be.

The Continental's PRIMARY role is quiet luxury, the Model S is fast, state of the art efficient electric car. But... the Model S has it beat on the quiet part.

Im disappoint with the Lincoln as it might have Tesla beat and the Continental is a 60K car and we just said that the Tesla's interior is worthy of a 60K car, so what gives?

Because THIS is where I believe Lincoln should have given us an interior worthy of a 100K car in a 60K car...

The opposite of what we are whining about Tesla....

(My disclaimer: I dont know about Lincoln's Black Label, so maybe my nonsense whining may be addressed with the Black Label trim?)

[A Horse With No Name]

9 hours ago, dfelt said:

Exactly, they have pushed the envelope and surpassed everyone with their Tech, but the refinement still leaves much to be desired.

Bingo!

[G. David Felt]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 If you max out the options list on an Escalade you get to $100k, but most luxury brands maxed out are nearing or above $200k.

Again you were doing fine till this last box, if you do an ESV Platinum, your nicely north of 100K. 

Plus Escalade keeps it's value, I see 2 year old Tesla S on the used market at about 1/3 to 50% of their value compared to a 2yr old Escalade at 75% or more of it's original value.

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

(My disclaimer: I dont know about Lincoln's Black Label, so maybe my nonsense whining may be addressed with the Black Label trim?)

Nope it is not, having been in a Black Label, it is nice but nothing special that puts it that much more above their others trims.

In fact if you did not know about their Black Label and the added services they give you that I question are really used by many of the buyers, I doubt anyone would tell the difference.

[A Horse With No Name]

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Again you were doing fine till this last box, if you do an ESV Platinum, your nicely north of 100K. 

Plus Escalade keeps it's value, I see 2 year old Tesla S on the used market at about 1/3 to 50% of their value compared to a 2yr old Escalade at 75% or more of it's original value.

Nope it is not, having been in a Black Label, it is nice but nothing special that puts it that much more above their others trims.

In fact if you did not know about their Black Label and the added services they give you that I question are really used by many of the buyers, I doubt anyone would tell the difference.

Black label is an interesting marketing concept but a poor use of fiscal resources IMHO.  Agree, nice, nothing spectacular.

I do not see Tesla used selling anywhere near as cheaply as you suggest though.

Escalade holds its value very well...must be a lot of want to be rappers and low level professional athletes floating around...(Just kidding bro, Horse ducks from wrench thrown from Washington to Ohio....!)

[Drew Dowdell]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think Tesla has $100k car interiors, or even $65k car interiors, but it isn't like the glorified Fusions and Escapes that Lincoln has are setting any new standard.  Even the Continental is pretty weak inside.  The CT6 is nicer than a Model S on the inside.  I do think Tesla needs to improve their interiors, but they are competitive with other American luxury car interiors, maybe just not the top Cadillacs, but the lower Cadillacs.

You mean you think a $100k car is competitive with a $30k ATS? And somehow you are knocking Cadillac for that?

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

That is debatable.

Compared to other $50 - $70k vehicles, I think the Continental is very strong. I don't want to be like @smk4565 who tries to compare every freaking vehicle to a $150lk S56 SMG Designo Edition and expect vehicles 1/3 of the price to match it. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Black label is mostly some nicer trim pieces, more interesting color combinations, and a wheel package. It's like a Designo trim at MB.

[Cmicasa the Great]

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You mean you think a $100k car is competitive with a $30k ATS? And somehow you are knocking Cadillac for that?

Compared to other $50 - $70k vehicles, I think the Continental is very strong. I don't want to be like @smk4565 who tries to compare every freaking vehicle to a $150lk S56 SMG Designo Edition and expect vehicles 1/3 of the price to match it. 

But he's no different than every other car reviewer at Motor Trend... and C&D when it comes to an American vehicle. The first thing mentioned in any of their articles is "whether Cadillac is up to snuff with the Germans..." The CT6 when viewed objectively.. is a better, more luxo car than the S550. It looks, and feels the part inside and out. The Continental looks and feels luxo inside.. but the outside screams "everyday car" to me. I would say the LaX is more elegant.. and even the ES350.  There.. its been said.

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Compared to other $50 - $70k vehicles, I think the Continental is very strong. I don't want to be like @smk4565 who tries to compare every freaking vehicle to a $150lk S56 SMG Designo Edition and expect vehicles 1/3 of the price to match it. 

Like you, that wasnt my goal either.

Further down in the thread after that post you quoted, you get a glimpse of my thought process. And yes, I do think the Continental's interior is fine in its price range...

Why I am whining?

Its because I kinda wished Lincoln (and Cadillac) dont only give us "just fine for their price range", I want Lincoln (and Cadillac) to punch ABOVE their price  range to REALLY WOO badge snobs...or at least match Audi because Audi, in my opinion, are the industry leaders in their interiors no matter what price range we are talking about. And the Continental does not match up to a comparable Audi.

As for Tesla, high tech wizardry gives them a pass in that regard.

HOWEVER, soon, as other brands delve into EVs, Tesla better start investing in their interiors as many would not be as forgivable  as they are now concerning the interiors as their tech advantage wont longer be.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

But he's no different than every other car reviewer at Motor Trend... and C&D when it comes to an American vehicle. The first thing mentioned in any of their articles is "whether Cadillac is up to snuff with the Germans..." The CT6 when viewed objectively.. is a better, more luxo car than the S550. It looks, and feels the part inside and out. The Continental looks and feels luxo inside.. but the outside screams "everyday car" to me. I would say the LaX is more elegant.. and even the ES350.  There.. its been said.

One of the original reasons I pushed C&G from just being a forum and into a review site was after I read two articles on C&D.  One where they knocked a Buick Lucerne for its slalom capabilities compared to a BMW..... and another where the Aveo's 0-60 time was being criticized... and at the time it was the least expensive car on the market.  We review cars specifically to avoid dumb comparisons like those.  

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

One of the original reasons I pushed C&G from just being a forum and into a review site was after I read two articles on C&D.  One where they knocked a Buick Lucerne for its slalom capabilities compared to a BMW..... and another where the Aveo's 0-60 time was being criticized... and at the time it was the least expensive car on the market.  We review cars specifically to avoid dumb comparisons like those.  

Oh.. U don't have to tell me. When I was a "star" over at Motor Trend Forum I dealt with Angus McKenzie over a idiotic high rating he gave the Toyota Matrix.. while at the same time dogging the Pontiac Vibe. He tried to chalk it up to a Typo.. yes.. a typo.. during the darkest days of the Domestics past.. having issues with perception.. he used that excuse in a nationally published consumer read magazine

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Like you, that wasnt my goal either.

Further down in the thread after that post you quoted, you get a glimpse of my thought process. And yes, I do think the Continental's interior is fine in its price range...

Why I am whining?

Its because I kinda wished Lincoln (and Cadillac) dont only give us "just fine for their price range", I want Lincoln (and Cadillac) to punch ABOVE their price  range to REALLY WOO badge snobs...or at least match Audi because Audi, in my opinion, are the industry leaders in their interiors no matter what price range we are talking about. And the Continental does not match up to a comparable Audi.

As for Tesla, high tech wizardry gives them a pass in that regard.

HOWEVER, soon, as other brands delve into EVs, Tesla better start investing in their interiors as many would not be as forgivable  as they are now concerning the interiors as their tech advantage wont longer be.

Lincoln had been below its class with the MKS for years... I'd say even going back to the first FWD generation of Continental.... after the last RWD Continental, Lincoln gave up on competing on interiors.  Today's Continental I'd put on par or higher than other vehicles in its price class. 

As an experiment, I just priced out a CT6 Platinum. Checking every box got me to $91k... That is a lot of car, features, and options compared to an S-Class that start just around that same price.  And you don't get any of the fancy options in the S-class at that price that the Cadillac has. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

As an experiment, I just priced out a CT6 Platinum. Checking every box got me to $91k... That is a lot of car, features, and options compared to an S-Class that start just around that same price.  And you don't get any of the fancy options in the S-class at that price that the Cadillac has. 

Ironically I think that is an issue for Cadillac. Consumers actually want them to rape the consumers in order to be viewed on the same level as the Sclass. It will be most interesting if this type of thing continues with the CT6 when the CT7 or 8 arrives. Effectively you will have a CT6 Platinum that is the competitor of the Sclass for less while the base CT7 or 8 goes even further than it while starting off exactly the same in regards to pricing 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Black label is an interesting marketing concept but a poor use of fiscal resources IMHO.  Agree, nice, nothing spectacular.

I do not see Tesla used selling anywhere near as cheaply as you suggest though.

Escalade holds its value very well...must be a lot of want to be rappers and low level professional athletes floating around...(Just kidding bro, Horse ducks from wrench thrown from Washington to Ohio....!)

 Love it, I catch your Horse Ducks and thrown you an Evergreen Tree.

In regards to Tesla, they are so common here that you see a ton of them everywhere and all over the used car lots.

55 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Oh.. U don't have to tell me. When I was a "star" over at Motor Trend Forum I dealt with Angus McKenzie over a idiotic high rating he gave the Toyota Matrix.. while at the same time dogging the Pontiac Vibe. He tried to chalk it up to a Typo.. yes.. a typo.. during the darkest days of the Domestics past.. having issues with perception.. he used that excuse in a nationally published consumer read magazine

I agree, it was unbelievable how the mags gave amazing reviews on the Matrix and then pounded the Pontiac Vibe and yet they were twins built on the same bloody assembly line with the majority of same parts other than badging.

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 Love it, I catch your Horse Ducks and thrown you an Evergreen Tree.

In regards to Tesla, they are so common here that you see a ton of them everywhere and all over the used car lots.

I agree, it was unbelievable how the mags gave amazing reviews on the Matrix and then pounded the Pontiac Vibe and yet they were twins built on the same bloody assembly line with the majority of same parts other than badging.

It is really hard to have any kind of rational and intelligent discussion bout cars anywhere, which is why I value these forums so much.  Oh and guys, thanks for this thread and a bunch of others that have been civil and intelligent.

Vibe was not a bad car, matrix was not a fantastic one...

[Cmicasa the Great]

10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Vibe was not a bad car, matrix was not a fantastic one...

Nice way of looking at it.. Because they were the same with exception to SUBJECTIVE styling. Even I never tried to dog out the Matrix without dogging out the Vibe.. from a Toyota hating point of view. And I hate Toyota with a passion. My biggest quip with the Vibe always remained the fact that GM just didn't use Delta to make it or import the Astra at the time for Pontiac as it would do later for Saturn... another pointless, money costing venture that should have never been. Seriously.. Saturn was an expensive experiment that should have just been a renaming of Oldsmobile, but called Aurora.. which Olds was gonna be called eventually anyway. And hell if U look at the Saturns pre-names (when they were called SL etc) U see the face of what Olds would become in the Intrigue, Alero, and Aurora. Olds, historically was GM's test-bed for tech. Olds would get tech before Cadillac in many cases.. In other words the Alero could have shown up with plastic doors.. LOL.. now I'm just ranting

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Nice way of looking at it.. Because they were the same with exception to SUBJECTIVE styling. Even I never tried to dog out the Matrix without dogging out the Vibe.. from a Toyota hating point of view. And I hate Toyota with a passion. My biggest quip with the Vibe always remained the fact that GM just didn't use Delta to make it or import the Astra at the time for Pontiac as it would do later for Saturn... another pointless, money costing venture that should have never been. Seriously.. Saturn was an expensive experiment that should have just been a renaming of Oldsmobile, but called Aurora.. which Olds was gonna be called eventually anyway. And hell if U look at the Saturns pre-names (when they were called SL etc) U see the face of what Olds would become in the Intrigue, Alero, and Aurora. Olds, historically was GM's test-bed for tech. Olds would get tech before Cadillac in many cases.. In other words the Alero could have shown up with plastic doors.. LOL.. now I'm just ranting

Vibe was the tail end of a decade and a half long venture where GM got to learn Toyota manufacturing processes. The value of that can be seen in the rest of the GM lineup today.   The Astra would never had made it as a Vibe... 1: it was too small 2: it was too underpowered (even by Vibe standards) 3: No AWD.

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Vibe was the tail end of a decade and a half long venture where GM got to learn Toyota manufacturing processes. The value of that can be seen in the rest of the GM lineup today.   The Astra would never had made it as a Vibe... 1: it was too small 2: it was too underpowered (even by Vibe standards) 3: No AWD.

OK.. I agree on the manufacturing process, but when I speak of the Astra.. for Pontiac (we aren't talking Chevy).. the so-called "excitement division".. I was speaking of the VXR/OPC editions