Industry News: Muscle Car Wars Find A New Battleground In China

[William Maley]

The rivalry of the Chevrolet Camaro and Ford Mustang has been going for ages in the U.S. But now this fight has expanded into China.

Automotive News reports that a growing group of Chinese buyers are being drawn towards to these models as the exude the no-apologies Americana attitude.

"We're seeing the beginning of a muscle car culture here. Something that is uniquely American appeals to the Chinese consumer. The image that it relays to the automotive public is very positive," said James Chao, a China market auto analyst with IHS Markit.

Sales of both models are small with Chevrolet only moving 2,000 Camaros since its launch 2011. Ford is doing slightly better with 6,200 Mustangs sold since its launch in 2015. In the first quarter, Mustang sales saw a 90 percent increase to 963 vehicles. Part of the reason for the slow sales comes down to the price. The Camaro starts about 399,900 yuan (about $58,000) - more than double of the base price of $26,900 in the U.S. The Mustang isn't that far behind, costing about $15 dollars less. Prices are increased due to a 25 percent import tariff on U.S. made vehicles, homologation and shipping fees, and Chinese buyers trending to splurge on higher-time models.

But despite the low sales, the Camaro and Mustang are bringing buyers to dealers. These models act as eye candy to help draw shoppers into showrooms with the hope they'll purchase a vehicle, where it be the eye candy or something a little less exciting.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

View full article

[G. David Felt]

Interesting, Wonder if GM or Ford would consider building an EV or Plugin Hybrid in China for the credit it would give them?

[FordCosworth]

Interesting. Another market, though extremely tiny, but nonetheless, where the Mustang is taking to the Camaro.

And then there is this...

" Prices are increased due to a 25 percent import tariff on U.S. made vehicles ". 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not sure GM was even trying with the Camaro over there.... leaving it with limited importation due to cost.  It was a big deal that they even imported the Enclave over there.

[G. David Felt]

With a 10% Plugin Hybrid / EV sales level for 2018 on 2019 models. It will be interesting to see what all the auto companies do for China next year.

Here people thought CARB and EPA were tough.

[FordCosworth]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not sure GM was even trying with the Camaro over there.... leaving it with limited importation due to cost.  It was a big deal that they even imported the Enclave over there.

I'm not sure Ford is trying with the Mustang over there either. 

I believe if either auto assembler was, they'd be utilizing one of their joint ventures that China demands for assembly instead of the current format they both use

Mustang has only been selling there for 2yrs, Camaro over 5yrs, yet the Mustang in relation is stomping the hell out of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Camaro was busy stomping on the Mustang here in the US during 4 of those 5 years.  

GM's more interested in growing Buick and Cadillac.  Buick is a huge money maker for them over there where they can sell re-badged Daewoos at the low end for big markups and charge Benz like prices for the Encore and the GL8. Buick has been a prestige brand since the last time China had an Emperor.  Where is Lincoln?  Just getting started. 

Let's compare numbers....

During March the Ford sold 90,457 units, down biggly.

General Motors delivered a March record of 345,448 vehicles

GM sold 2.5 times as many Envisions as Ford sold Mustangs. 

GM sold nearly as many Buicks in China (88,519) than Ford sold vehicles of any brand and any size.

Chevy just isn't one of the bigger brands for GM in China. They use their other brands there.... so it's not a big surprise that Camaro sales are low.

In the end, I'm not really all that concerned about Camaro or Mustang sales in China... as the original article implies, muscle cars (or more properly, pony cars?) have never been a big deal to the Chinese, so the sales of these two cars there is a relatively new phenomenon. The Chinese go for big, soft luxury... being chauffeur driven has been the prestige there.  Hard to have a chauffeur with a Camaro or Mustang.

 

[FordCosworth]

 " Camaro was busy stomping on the Mustang here in the US during 4 of those 5 years. "

That was 99% due to the new factor for the Camaro. 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

 " Camaro was busy stomping on the Mustang here in the US during 4 of those 5 years. "

That was 99% due to the new factor for the Camaro. 

 

Does that kind of excuse work in China? You yourself said that the Camaro has been selling there since 2011.... the Mustang is new.

[FordCosworth]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Does that kind of excuse work in China? You yourself said that the Camaro has been selling there since 2011.... the Mustang is new.

When the new Mustang came out, it took the Camaro by the throat again..

The Camaro is once agian new, and getting its ass kicked here

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, FordCosworth said:

When the new Mustang came out, it took the Camaro by the throat again..

The Camaro is once agian new, and getting its ass kicked here

The Mustang is getting it's ass kicked by a mommyvan. 

Again, Chevrolet is not GM's brand of choice there, Buick, Cadillac, and Wuling, and Baojun are.   Wuling and Baojun sell over 1.5m vehicles annually. Buick adds another million.

Those three brands alone are 2.5 million units annually.  That's 208,333 cars a month from just three brands... add to that GM also has Cadillac, Chevrolet, and some other China-only brands as well (Opel is/was there for some reason)

Ford isn't even in the 6 digit per month figure.

GM has 4 cars in the Top Selling Cars in China list.

Ford has zero.

 

But Mustang beat Camaro.... so... 

[FordCosworth]

" But Mustang beat Camaro.... so...  "

As long as the cookies are homemade 

 

 

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Mustang is getting it's ass kicked by a mommyvan. 

Not sure what the point of that comparison is.

Mustang outsells Camaro

-"Yeah well, Camry out sells Mustang.  " 

[Drew Dowdell]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Not sure what the point of that comparison is.

Mustang outsells Camaro

-"Yeah well, Camry out sells Mustang.  " 

The main point is the perspective of the bigger picture.... inside of that, there are multiple points.  One is that Chevrolet is not as big priority for GM in China. Chevy still needs to perform, but it's not make or break.  Ford brand is literally all Ford has in China at this point... Lincoln is just barely getting started and Ford has no other brand partners like GM does. The second point is that sports cars have never been a Chinese priority, posh chauffeur driven sedans and MPVs are, so I can't really fault GM for not putting any effort there.  I can certainly fault Lincoln for only joining the market in 2014. Mustang outsold Camaro in China.... yippie.... GM sold 3.8 times as many vehicles as Ford did in China.  

Lincoln sold 32,588 cars in China in 2016.  

Cadillac (which isn't even doing that well in China compared to Benz or Audi) does that in 2 months.

Buick does that every 2.5 weeks. 

I'm sure Mary Barra is crying over the 310 units per month she's losing out to Mustang sales.  Really.... three hundred and ten vehicles per month in a country of 1.37 billion people is what @FordCosworth is tap dancing over.  Perspective.

Unfortunately, this story is a molehill that a giant mountain has been made from.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Mustang outsold Camaro in China.... yippie.... GM sold 3.8 times as many vehicles as Ford did in China.  

Yeah and neither sales totals were significant(Mustang/Camaro).

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Yeah and neither sales totals were significant(Mustang/Camaro).

Exactly. 

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Exactly. 

Sales are an interesting thing to talk about but they're lame as F to use as "leverage" in an argument. Real enthusiasts don't even care about sales they're just using them in "fights". Whatever gets the companies to make their products better every year for us consumers is a win.

[G. David Felt]

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Sales are an interesting thing to talk about but they're lame as F to use as "leverage" in an argument. Real enthusiasts don't even care about sales they're just using them in "fights". Whatever gets the companies to make their products better every year for us consumers is a win.

 Sounds like something we would be debating with SMK.

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

Interesting. Another market, though extremely tiny, but nonetheless, where the Mustang is taking to the Camaro.

And then there is this...

" Prices are increased due to a 25 percent import tariff on U.S. made vehicles ". 

 

I dont think I need an explanation why I down voted...

And If I did give you one, William would give me another 2 points for abusive behavior for calling a spade a spade...

 

But I did give a +1 to the poster who best explains my thoughts.
 

Quote

 

Sales are an interesting thing to talk about but they're lame as F to use as "leverage" in an argument. Real enthusiasts don't even care about sales they're just using them in "fights".

 

His way though is a more political correct way of going about it.

I dont do P.C.

Heads up....you'd get plusieurs down votes today!!! I only get one...why?

Again...your behavior and you playing coy!

Edited April 24, 2017 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont think I need an explanation why I down voted...

And If I did give you one, William would give me another 2 points for abusive behavior for calling a spade a spade...

A little ironic then.. can't keep it PG to explain but can hand out votes. Don't expect explanations when somebody downvotes you then.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

A little ironic then.. can't keep it PG to explain but can hand out votes. Don't expect explanations when somebody downvotes you then.

CCAP....you got the +1 vote....

But then again....you jumped the gun on me...read the edited version....

 

But it seems like you want to know why I gave him a -1?

HE IS A TROLL!!!
HE IS A FORD SHILL!

IF I GET ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR WARNINGS, ITS ON YOU!!!

[FordCosworth]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

CCAP....you got the +1 vote....

But then again....you jumped the gun on me...read the edited version....

 

But it seems like you want to know why I gave him a -1?

HE IS A TROLL!!!
HE IS A FORD SHILL!

IF I GET ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR WARNINGS, ITS ON YOU!!!

Rather upsetting and quite sad when an adult blames their behavior on someone else.

 

[oldshurst442]

Just now, FordCosworth said:

Rather upsetting and quite sad when an adult blames their behavior on someone else.

 

Let me guess....

Pee Wee Herman was your hero growing up?!

[FordCosworth]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Let me guess....

Pee Wee Herman was your hero growing up?!

Like usual. You are incorrect.

[oldshurst442]

Just now, FordCosworth said:

Like usual. You are incorrect.

LIke usual

YOU ARE A TROLL!

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

CCAP....you got the +1 vote....

But then again....you jumped the gun on me...read the edited version....

 

But it seems like you want to know why I gave him a -1?

HE IS A TROLL!!!
HE IS A FORD SHILL!

IF I GET ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR WARNINGS, ITS ON YOU!!!

Personally, I don't care why you gave anybody a -1. But you don't like it when somebody gives you one w/o an explanation.

Hahaha I'll take the blame!

[oldshurst442]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Personally, I don't care why you gave anybody a -1. But you don't like it when somebody gives you one w/o an explanation.

Hahaha I'll take the blame!

I GAVE ONE!

But YOU dont like it when people, because there are others like me, have time and time and again EXPLAINED AS TO WHY IT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Drew and Dfelt have explained eloquently today for the millionth time!!!

And...its ironic when YOU ALWAYS have to ask why and its ironic when you always get the same answer for the millionth time..

Its OK...

Im a big boy, I could handle the heat.

In fact. Im banning myself again so Drew has one less headache to deal with.

3 days Im banning myself and it starts...NOW!

See ya Thursday at around 17:40 ish 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

21 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I GAVE ONE!

But YOU dont like it when people, because there are others like me, have time and time and again EXPLAINED AS TO WHY IT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Drew and Dfelt have explained eloquently today for the millionth time!!!

And...its ironic when YOU ALWAYS have to ask why and its ironic when you always get the same answer for the millionth time..

Its OK...

Im a big boy, I could handle the heat.

In fact. Im banning myself again so Drew has one less headache to deal with.

3 days Im banning myself and it starts...NOW!

See ya Thursday at around 17:40 ish 

 

Looking forward to seeing you back...

On 4/24/2017 at 1:59 PM, FordCosworth said:

I'm not sure Ford is trying with the Mustang over there either. 

I believe if either auto assembler was, they'd be utilizing one of their joint ventures that China demands for assembly instead of the current format they both use

Mustang has only been selling there for 2yrs, Camaro over 5yrs, yet the Mustang in relation is stomping the hell out of it.

Mustang is an amazing product, no questions asked.

On 4/24/2017 at 0:21 PM, FordCosworth said:

Interesting. Another market, though extremely tiny, but nonetheless, where the Mustang is taking to the Camaro.

And then there is this...

" Prices are increased due to a 25 percent import tariff on U.S. made vehicles ". 

 

Fair trade has been ignored for far too long...

[FAPTurbo]

tesla sold 11,000 vehicles in China last year so im not sure why knuckle dragging pony car fans think these numbers are remotely worth dickwaving about...

[A Horse With No Name]

8 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

tesla sold 11,000 vehicles in China last year so im not sure why knuckle dragging pony car fans think these numbers are remotely worth dickwaving about... 

Because said D$#cks have not found similar girl bits to enjoy...

Seriously, I don't know why domestic car guys feel the need to trash other domestic car makers.  I travel in automotive circles that are heavily import oriented...the import guys don't trash talk the domestics like this, why should the domestic guys?

If in seeing the Camaro and Mustang the only thing you can think about is trash talking one of them...you are not a real car guy (or gal).

Edited April 26, 2017 by A Horse With No Name

[ccap41]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:16 PM, oldshurst442 said:

But then again....you jumped the gun on me...read the edited version....

Wellllll I didn't do any gun jumping, you jumped the gun clicking "submit reply" if you didn't say what you wanted to say and had to edit.

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:37 PM, oldshurst442 said:

And...its ironic when YOU ALWAYS have to ask why and its ironic when you always get the same answer for the millionth time..

Oh I know why, you guys wear too tight of panties and they get ruffled too easily. You take internet stuffs personally. It's the internet, BRO!

[FordCosworth]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Wellllll I didn't do any gun jumping, you jumped the gun clicking "submit reply" if you didn't say what you wanted to say and had to edit.

Oh I know why, you guys wear too tight of panties and they get ruffled too easily. You take internet stuffs personally. It's the internet, BRO!

" Oh I know why, you guys wear too tight of panties and they get ruffled too easily. You take internet stuffs personally. It's the internet, BRO! "

Comment of the Day! 

* and its only 8AM PST

 

[G. David Felt]

17 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Oh I know why, you guys wear too tight of panties and they get ruffled too easily. You take internet stuffs personally. It's the internet, BRO!

Seems like this might bring in the debate of briefs or boxers?  

[FordCosworth]

11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Seems like this might bring in the debate of briefs or boxers?  

Commando

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, FordCosworth said:

Commando

Now that is an ugly visual...!

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, FordCosworth said:

Commando

I never enjoyed it... I'm a boxer briefs kinda guy. Hold my sht in place. lol

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I never enjoyed it... I'm a boxer briefs kinda guy. Hold my sht in place. lol

Now see, if you had gotten the Focus ST with the Recaro's rather than the Titanium....the seats would have helped with the process as well...

Edited April 26, 2017 by A Horse With No Name
spelling

[FordCosworth]

3 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Now see, if you had gotten the Focus ST with the Recaro's rather than the Titanium....the seats would have helped with the process as well...

Heated and massaging

 

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, FordCosworth said:

Heated and massaging

 

Rumor is CCAP provides his own heat and massage...jsut sayin...

[FordCosworth]

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

Rumor is CCAP provides his own heat and massage...jsut sayin...

Must love yourself before one can love another

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, FordCosworth said:

Must love yourself before one can love another

Like the musicians always say, practice, practice, practice....

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Wellllll I didn't do any gun jumping, you jumped the gun clicking "submit reply" if you didn't say what you wanted to say and had to edit.

Oh I know why, you guys wear too tight of panties and they get ruffled too easily. You take internet stuffs personally. It's the internet, BRO!

Are you OK, Bro?

Is anything bothering you?

Because....I could flip this on you!!!!

Why does it bother YOU that WE may have an issue with trolls down voting without any explanation?

It looks like YOUR panties are worn too tightly to give a shyte what WE think?!

Its only the internet!!!

 

 

PS: It looks like YOU also wants to win an internet argument....
 

Quote

 

Wellllll I didn't do any gun jumping, you jumped the gun clicking "submit reply" if you didn't say what you wanted to say and had to edit.

 

 

 

Because THAT answer is just plain douchey and it screams that YOU want to have THE edge...

So....I repeat....

Anything bothering you for you to behave in such crappy manner?

 

Looks like I broke other ban..

I giving myself another 24 hours....unless someone wants to cheap shot me....because yes, I feel like that was a cheap shot!!!!

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[A Horse With No Name]

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Are you OK, Bro?

Is anything bothering you?

Because....I could flip this on you!!!!

Why does it bother YOU that WE may have an issue with trolls down voting without any explanation?

It looks like YOUR panties are worn too tightly to give a shyte what WE think?!

Its only the internet!!!

 

 

PS: It looks like YOU also wants to win an internet argument....
 

Because THAT answer is just plain douchey and it screams that YOU want to have THE edge...

So....I repeat....

Anything bothering you for you to behave in such crappy manner?

 

Looks like I broke other ban..

I giving myself another 24 hours....unless someone wants to cheap shot me....because yes, I feel like that was a cheap shot!!!!

 

 

I think you need to try the self massaging and heating thing, or at least the seats in the Focus ST.

Seriously now....the Focus ST has great seats.  I love CCAPS Focus, but still a little disappointed he didn't get the ST.  I really like the Focus ST BTW...

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Are you OK, Bro?

Is anything bothering you?

Because....I could flip this on you!!!!

Why does it bother YOU that WE may have an issue with trolls down voting without any explanation?

It looks like YOUR panties are worn too tightly to give a shyte what WE think?!

Its only the internet!!!

Because it is pathetic to let faceless internet folks who give you a little red "-1" negatively effect your life.

lol I think the person who said they'd take a little break from a site and less than 48hrs later was back would be the ruffled one. But if you want it to be me, that's okay as well. I can take it.

It bothers me because I get asked the question of "why?" if I downvote something because said user "needs" a response. They won't like the response but they ask for it. Then it turns into endless circles of "you're a jerk" and "no you're a jerk". and so forth...

The person who receives the downvotes never calmly or politely asks why the vote, they come back firing 99% of the time(I think dfelt is the only person I've seen calmly ask for an explanation) because the person who received the vote is already pissy.

People care about petty sht these days and internet downvotes is definitely one of them.

[oldshurst442]

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

lol I think the person who said they'd take a little break from a site and less than 48hrs later was back would be the ruffled one.

Knowing I wouldnt be present for a while...you felt the need to address me?

YOU knew I was NOT gonna be responding yet you had the need to reply to me in that way?

Only for you to shove this back to my face?

I aint ruffled my dear....

Have you noticed all my responses to you have been question marks?

Yeah....I responded....I felt you cheap shotted me!

Because obviously this is the internets and we shouldnt let a stranger get to us yet YOU felt the need to address me on a post that was made 48 hours ago that YOU knew I made telling you I wouldnt be responding yet YOU took YOUR internet time to show YOUR bravado to me?

Yup.....

Irony....

 

YOU  continue whining why it bothers ME...

 

PS:

I also discuss things calmly...

But not when loud mouthed bravado types dont do it calmy...

Much like yourself now!

Irony part two...

You once had a hissy fit with me when I used a broad stroke regarding Americans  IGNORING the bigger picture when you told me I was a hypocrite..

 

Well guess what?

YOU are doing the same thing now!

 

WHINING about others WHINING ignoring the WHY!

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I think you need to try the self massaging and heating thing, or at least the seats in the Focus ST.

Seriously now....the Focus ST has great seats.  I love CCAPS Focus, but still a little disappointed he didn't get the ST.  I really like the Focus ST BTW...

Yeah Yeah Yeah... I knoooooow. In my aging self I didn't want to have m only vehicle a manual as I don't enjoy them in traffic or when I'm tired in the morning or at night as much.

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Knowing I wouldnt be present for a while...you felt the need to address me?

Next time just save a Word document and wait until you post again to make sure you're online? I'll be sure to take note of that absurd request.

I showed you my "bravado"..? Or, crazy idea here.. I just posted when I got back on here the following day when this thread popped up on the top of my feed.

Is there an allotted about of time which it is and is not acceptable to send a reply to another poster?

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah Yeah Yeah... I knoooooow. In my aging self I didn't want to have m only vehicle a manual as I don't enjoy them in traffic or when I'm tired in the morning or at night as much.

Next time just save a Word document and wait until you post again to make sure you're online? I'll be sure to take note of that absurd request.

I showed you my "bravado"..? Or, crazy idea here.. I just posted when I got back on here the following day when this thread popped up on the top of my feed.

Is there an allotted about of time which it is and is not acceptable to send a reply to another poster?

No alotted time....

Yet YOU shoved it in my face though....

Quote

lol I think the person who said they'd take a little break from a site and less than 48hrs later was back would be the ruffled one.

But I aint allowed to shove it right back to you?

Why are you defending yourself to me then?

Im just a stranger on the internet...

I am not important to you but you felt the need to put me in my place, right?

OK....does this post ring a bell to you?
 

Quote

 

Because it is pathetic to let faceless internet folks who give you a little red "-1" negatively effect your life.

lol I think the person who said they'd take a little break from a site and less than 48hrs later was back would be the ruffled one. But if you want it to be me, that's okay as well. I can take it.

It bothers me because I get asked the question of "why?" if I downvote something because said user "needs" a response. They won't like the response but they ask for it. Then it turns into endless circles of "you're a jerk" and "no you're a jerk". and so forth...

 

Because YOU and I are engaging ιn EXACTLY what YOU are trying to school me in!

And again in YOUR own words...
 

Quote

 

Next time just save a Word document and wait until you post again to make sure you're online? I'll be sure to take note of that absurd request.

I showed you my "bravado"..? Or, crazy idea here.. I just posted when I got back on here the following day when this thread popped up on the top of my feed.

Is there an allotted about of time which it is and is not acceptable to send a reply to another poster?

 

 

If YOU REALLY went by your ORIGINAL THOUGHTS ABOUT NOT LETTING A CIRCLE JERK HAPPEN....MAYBE YOU SHOULDNT HAVE RESPONDED TO ME AT ALL!!!

AND THAT WAY I WOULDNT HAVE THE NEED TO ADDRESS YOUR CHEAP SHOT AT ME AND THEREFORE YOU WOULDNT HAVE TO RESPOND BACK IN KINDNESS!!!

So you see, WHAT YOU PREACH AINT EXACTLY WHAT YOUR ACTIONS SAY!!!

I COULD CALL YOU A HYPOCRITE....

You see, I dont have a problem....I calls it how I sees it....

Always have! ALWAYS WILL!

So....are you gonna respond back?

Can YOU be the bigger man and I get the last word in?

Are you strong enough for that?

Because the more we continue this, the more YOUR preaching seems less sincere...

[A Horse With No Name]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah Yeah Yeah... I knoooooow. In my aging self I didn't want to have m only vehicle a manual as I don't enjoy them in traffic or when I'm tired in the morning or at night as much.

 

I can relate...

Hurst...could we get back to cars, please....

[G. David Felt]

16 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I can relate...

Hurst...could we get back to cars, please....

Hurst, it would be awesome if they came out with some cool gadgets for EV auto's! Hurst could reinvent themselves and help push the Muscle car EV market!  

[oldshurst442]

18 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I can relate...

Hurst...could we get back to cars, please....

Yes! yes we can!

I earned myself at least a week ban for this!

So yeah...Ill take a week off!

Ill read posts and just up vote where I see fit!