G.M. plant siezed by Venezuelan Gov't

[balthazar]

https://www.dailysabah.com/automotive/2017/04/20/general-motors-auto-plant-in-venezuela-seized-by-government-gm-decries-illegality

[oldshurst442]

These kinds of things has happened in the past.

In China it happened quite frequently and the fear is still present as we speak to happen again.

In Nazi Germany it has happened.

What can GM do?

Cry fowl?  (talk to the International trade organization) Good luck wit dat...

Tell Trump to invade Venezuela? (or at least tell Trump to impose trade sanctions and get NATO countries onbard)

 

IMO...its the cost of doing business outside your home country when that particular country seems like a shady country.....

Brazil and China and....even Mexico seems like a bad idea....

 

[G. David Felt]

Ugh,  Kinda expected after that rot hole stole the oil companies production facilities. I am surprised this has not happened sooner as that country will eventually implode. Socialism like communism does not work.

China is not a pure communism, but a mix of capitalism with communism.

[FordCosworth]

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Ugh,  Kinda expected after that rot hole stole the oil companies production facilities. I am surprised this has not happened sooner as that country will eventually implode. Socialism like communism does not work.

China is not a pure communism, but a mix of capitalism with communism.

There's a certain socialist country in the EU, that borders on the Mediterranean that also failed and collapsed. 

Welfare states are not sustainable. 

[surreal1272]

To call Venezuela a purely socialist country is a bit misleading and a misnomer. It was for decades controlled by a power hungry dictator who bled the system dry and tried to "nationalize" every industry under a single umbrella while using his power to intimidate and dismiss his detractors and enemies. Ever since Chavez, the country has struggled to recover from his actions. That country was about as socialist as Cuba. To compare it to a "certain socialist country in the EU" is very much an apples to oranges comparison when you understand what has happened there over the last thirty years.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/ways-chavez-destroyed-venezuelan-economy/story?id=18239956

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/south-america/an-australian-venezuelan-speaks-how-hugo-chavez-totally-ruined-my-country/news-story/7e47152c9573dc7e4db88899d03dd89c

 

None of this is the direct result of socialism. It is a direct result of a failed cesspot dictator.

Edited April 20, 2017 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

To call Venezuela a purely socialist country is a bit misleading and a misnomer. It was for decades controlled by a power hungry dictator who bled the system dry and tried to "nationalize" every industry under a single umbrella while using his power to intimidate and dismiss his detractors and enemies. Ever since Chavez, the country has struggled to recover from his actions. That country was about as socialist as Cuba. To compare it to a "certain socialist country in the EU" is very much an apples to oranges comparison when you understand what has happened there over the last thirty years.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/ways-chavez-destroyed-venezuelan-economy/story?id=18239956

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/south-america/an-australian-venezuelan-speaks-how-hugo-chavez-totally-ruined-my-country/news-story/7e47152c9573dc7e4db88899d03dd89c

 

None of this is the direct result of socialism. It is a direct result of a failed cesspot dictator.

I get the point your going for, but he wanted a socialist system of equality for all even though he himself and his family did not live that way.

Totally agree with him destroying the country.

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I get the point your going for, but he wanted a socialist system of equality for all even though he himself and his family did not live that way.

Totally agree with him destroying the country.

His acts and ways that he destroyed that country had nothing to do with socialism. It was socialism in name only because that was the platform he was trying to sell when he really only wanted it for himself. BTW, I am not advocating socialism here but to say that Venezuela failed because of it is being grossly misinformed. It has worked for some countries and has not worked for others, much the same as capitalism. No one system is perfect nor the be all to end all.

[loki]

anyone listen to the .. i think it was  like, radiolab, now i forrget what program did it and kinda went through the history of how this happened.. mostly the collapse of oil prices and that the government spent money like it was going out of style because of the oil $ coming in....  then prices sollapsed, chavez was doing somewhat ok , but he died then his successor did everything wrong and just made it worse..

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, loki said:

anyone listen to the .. i think it was  like, radiolab, now i forrget what program did it and kinda went through the history of how this happened.. mostly the collapse of oil prices and that the government spent money like it was going out of style because of the oil $ coming in....  then prices sollapsed, chavez was doing somewhat ok , but he died then his successor did everything wrong and just made it worse..

Interesting

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

There's a certain socialist country in the EU, that borders on the Mediterranean that also failed and collapsed. 

Welfare states are not sustainable. 

You talkin' about Greece?

Afraid to say it?

1821

1841

1878

1904

1912

1914

1919

1923

1939

1946

1950

These are all all out wars that modern Greece fought...the one in Korea was the ONLY one that did not involve her freedom...

If you are talkin' about Greece, maybe a little research will do you some good and maybe you wouldn't believe some of that #fakenews we here so much about...

Meaning...while Greece does have social programs that most of the population abuses...you would realize quickly that abuse of social programs is a tiny wee part of modern Greece's failure...

All those wars all those decades where Greece is fighting for her FREEDOM from the Ottomans, the Germans (WW1), the Nazis, the BRITISH that CONTROL HER ISLANDS, will quickly realize that Greece's coffers are NON-EXISTANT let alone empty running social programs....

Greece has been looted and raped many times over even by her so called friends...

 

I keep on hearing about Greece's failure due to socialism...

Those are people that

1. are blind to the truth and only go with what their biased political views tells them

2. hate Greece in general

3. are ignorant to the truth

 

I aint calling you or anybody else out here, just pointing out the direction to have maybe some sort of falsehoods put to rest.

 

And if you weren't talking about Greece...

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

And yes...I saw that post where you deny what you soooooo blatantly did intend to mention...but the Gods wiped your post clean...

 

 

[hyperv6]

You can try to explain it away but it is socializam. There are levels is socializam but any of them can fall to this level when any goverment controls this much of every aspect of your life with few checks and balances.

Sone if you here would love to have goverment running all things in your life but you need to use care at what you wish for as while capitalisam is not perfect it also has more safe guards to prevent on person taking over your life and all aspects of what you can or can't do. 

Social goverments when they do work like Sweden works well for their needs to this point. But it can go wrong fast like Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and others.

Power should never be focused in only one part of goverment. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by hyperv6

[surreal1272]

32 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

You can try to explain it away but it is socializam. There are levels is socializam but any of them can fall to this level when any goverment controls this much of every aspect of your life with few checks and balances.

Sone if you here would love to have goverment running all things in your life but you need to use care at what you wish for as while capitalisam is not perfect it also has more safe guards to prevent on person taking over your life and all aspects of what you can or can't do. 

Social goverments when they do work like Sweden works well for their needs to this point. But it can go wrong fast like Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and others.

Power should never be focused in only one part of goverment. 

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about who wants government to run everything (no one has said that they want the government to run their lives btw). 

 

Also questionable are these capitalism safeguards. When the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer, then clearly those "safeguards" are a little skewed in one direction. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by surreal1272

[loki]

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about who wants government to run everything (no one has said that they want the government to run their lives btw). 

 

Also questionable are these capitalism safeguards. When the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer, then clearly those "safeguards" are a little skewed in one direction. 

let's play some , use quotes to open discussion....
“The problem with fiat money is that it rewards the minority that can handle money, but fools the generation that has worked and saved money.”
- Adam Smith

“By this means (fractional reserve banking) government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.”
- John Maynard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1920)

“In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation […] Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the “hidden” confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights.”
- Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom (1968)

14 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

You can try to explain it away but it is socializam. There are levels is socializam but any of them can fall to this level when any goverment controls this much of every aspect of your life with few checks and balances.

Sone if you here would love to have goverment running all things in your life but you need to use care at what you wish for as while capitalisam is not perfect it also has more safe guards to prevent on person taking over your life and all aspects of what you can or can't do. 

Social goverments when they do work like Sweden works well for their needs to this point. But it can go wrong fast like Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and others.

Power should never be focused in only one part of goverment. 

“Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”
- Amschel Rothschild

 

guess this one!!!
The responsibility of the state. “Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly.... Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.

[surreal1272]

8 minutes ago, loki said:

let's play some , use quotes to open discussion....
“The problem with fiat money is that it rewards the minority that can handle money, but fools the generation that has worked and saved money.”
- Adam Smith

“By this means (fractional reserve banking) government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.”
- John Maynard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1920)

“In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation […] Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the “hidden” confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights.”
- Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom (1968)

“Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”
- Amschel Rothschild

 

guess this one!!!
The responsibility of the state. “Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly.... Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.

That would be the king of all thieves, the Catholic Church.

[G. David Felt]

Religion the questionable guide of Humanity.

[loki]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

That would be the king of all thieves, the Catholic Church.

nice diversionary post of one line,  (not wrong though) did you know this, or google it?

you have any substance to add?

57 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Religion the questionable guide of Humanity.

yes, but another entry in the catechism is ...

" 35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason."

2000+years of logic and reason that the church has used to get to where it is today. Mistakes have been made, but is that the fault of the religion or human nature? i put 2000+ because of the jewish tradition that had been the roots of christian tradition.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, loki said:

nice diversionary post of one line,  (not wrong though) did you know this, or google it?

you have any substance to add?

yes, but another entry in the catechism is ...

" 35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason."

2000+years of logic and reason that the church has used to get to where it is today. Mistakes have been made, but is that the fault of the religion or human nature? i put 2000+ because of the jewish tradition that had been the roots of christian tradition.

Interesting statements.

I pose that after thousands of years, if god existed, he has enough proof of wrong and write to take humanity to a new system of purity if this so called god existed.

Since this has not happened, I propose the next logical best thing. A intelligent species that is capable of interstellar travel visited this backwater world when Humans were just starting to evolve and as such the ignorance of man mad them a god or gods.

This is why places like Venezuela have dropped to self destruction and steal companies property like what has happened to GM. Some so called leader / dictator is now thinking he knows best for the people of the country and is in reality just another idiot trying to steal the wealth while suppressing the people.

Too bad GM did not have a way to defend their properties around the world.

[loki]

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Too bad GM did not have a way to defend their properties around the world.

i think the bailout was the only chance they got from us. no blackwater security sent there.   i'd say GM has the right to defend their property, but paying for security may not be worth it...

Tesla could have covered them with their stock worth alone.

 

if there can be proof of wrong and right... that must mean there is objective truth right?  how close are we to be able to know and control things with science?  i'd say somewhat far, but not in the grand scheme of things. thus if science is somewhat far, since living things are much more complex, we still have many "discoveries" to find, prove and spread this object truth.

if interstellar travelers existed... any technology that we can't understand, is essentially magic.  i'm not ruling that out, and would explain some things from prehistoric caves and such. but then the question is, why haven't they been back?  Star treks 'prime directive"?  lol

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, loki said:

nice diversionary post of one line,  (not wrong though) did you know this, or google it?

you have any substance to add?

yes, but another entry in the catechism is ...

" 35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason."

2000+years of logic and reason that the church has used to get to where it is today. Mistakes have been made, but is that the fault of the religion or human nature? i put 2000+ because of the jewish tradition that had been the roots of christian tradition.

I had reference that it was from organized religion but had to verify that was indeed a catholic thing. Nothing really to add to it becuase I don't believe in organized religion. 35 years in the Bible Belt turned me off of it long ago. 

 

And it is the fault of religion and man since man created religion to hold dominion over the weak and the powerless. 

 

Just my two cents and that is a subject for another time since it is unrelated to this thread. 

[hyperv6]

16 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about who wants government to run everything (no one has said that they want the government to run their lives btw). 

 

Also questionable are these capitalism safeguards. When the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer, then clearly those "safeguards" are a little skewed in one direction. 

 I can be off as I don't hold your voting records. I can just go by comments espoused on the site. 

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best system we have. The fact is if we are all the same no one benefits but if a good portion of our society succeeds then many of us benefit. Like my owner and employer. He has succeeded and with what he has made he provides jobs and many opportunities  for the rest of us to hold good jobs and make a good wage. I do not begrudge him his fortune and he was the one who took the risk, time and work to make it. More power to him.

Our society anymore is a jealous society. Many think because you succeed you are stealing it, Got lucky or you got it by greed. the truth is many successful people did it though hard work and some luck. They made their opportunities by taking chances.

We are all born of the same nature and unless you inherit your fortune we all have the same opportunities to make it or not.

 Not all lucky people are just lucky many position themselves to be in place to increase the odds of getting a break.

Money makes money and once you get a foot hold many take it to the bank through wise moves and discipline. Others with no disciplined end up blowing it and have nothing to show for their luck. Lottery winners are prime examples of not being in control.

Hey if someone makes a fortune legally more power to em. They owe me nothing. What ever tax they pay as long as it is legal is ok with me. You don't like it change the law.

Here is a quote that sums it up well.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

Winston Churchill
 

Life is not always fair and the first step is to accept that. The next step is to be smart and work hard to potion yourself in life to make the most of any opportunity that comes along.

Too many confuse luck with opportunity.

I got no hand outs and no large inheritance. I was taught a good work ethic and had the support of two good parents that lived under one roof. My grades could have been better but I did learn early on that you make the most of anything that comes along and build on it. I may not be rich but I am doing well and learned no matter what I have to appreciate what I have and not  be jealous of what someone else has.

If you can not be happy with what you have now you will never be happy no matter whatever  you do get. There will always be more you want. Never settle but never appreciate what you do have and never worry about what others have.  

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

 I can be off as I don't hold your voting records. I can just go by comments espoused on the site. 

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best system we have. The fact is if we are all the same no one benefits but if a good portion of our society succeeds then many of us benefit. Like my owner and employer. He has succeeded and with what he has made he provides jobs and many opportunities  for the rest of us to hold good jobs and make a good wage. I do not begrudge him his fortune and he was the one who took the risk, time and work to make it. More power to him.

Our society anymore is a jealous society. Many think because you succeed you are stealing it, Got lucky or you got it by greed. the truth is many successful people did it though hard work and some luck. They made their opportunities by taking chances.

We are all born of the same nature and unless you inherit your fortune we all have the same opportunities to make it or not.

 Not all lucky people are just lucky many position themselves to be in place to increase the odds of getting a break.

Money makes money and once you get a foot hold many take it to the bank through wise moves and discipline. Others with no disciplined end up blowing it and have nothing to show for their luck. Lottery winners are prime examples of not being in control.

Hey if someone makes a fortune legally more power to em. They owe me nothing. What ever tax they pay as long as it is legal is ok with me. You don't like it change the law.

Here is a quote that sums it up well.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

Winston Churchill
 

Life is not always fair and the first step is to accept that. The next step is to be smart and work hard to potion yourself in life to make the most of any opportunity that comes along.

Too many confuse luck with opportunity.

I got no hand outs and no large inheritance. I was taught a good work ethic and had the support of two good parents that lived under one roof. My grades could have been better but I did learn early on that you make the most of anything that comes along and build on it. I may not be rich but I am doing well and learned no matter what I have to appreciate what I have and not  be jealous of what someone else has.

If you can not be happy with what you have now you will never be happy no matter whatever  you do get. There will always be more you want. Never settle but never appreciate what you do have and never worry about what others have.  

 

 

 

No offense but so many words yet so little said. My point is that it is wreckless on your part to assume the stance of posters here just because they "espouse" certain views. I can say that everyone deserves a shot at a decent education but that doesn't make me a socialist. That makes me a caring human being. 

[G. David Felt]

55 minutes ago, loki said:

i think the bailout was the only chance they got from us. no blackwater security sent there.   i'd say GM has the right to defend their property, but paying for security may not be worth it...

Tesla could have covered them with their stock worth alone.

 

if there can be proof of wrong and right... that must mean there is objective truth right?  how close are we to be able to know and control things with science?  i'd say somewhat far, but not in the grand scheme of things. thus if science is somewhat far, since living things are much more complex, we still have many "discoveries" to find, prove and spread this object truth.

if interstellar travelers existed... any technology that we can't understand, is essentially magic.  i'm not ruling that out, and would explain some things from prehistoric caves and such. but then the question is, why haven't they been back?  Star treks 'prime directive"?  lol

Yes could be their Prime Directive or Thor closed the gate to us!

[loki]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes could be their Prime Directive or Thor closed the gate to us!

You forgot "Spoiler alert!"!!!!

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, loki said:

You forgot "Spoiler alert!"!!!!

Dont you folk already know?

 

We blew her up and The Monkees took over!

 

 

 

Truth be told....All over Latin America....the USA's hypocrisy with certain fascist regimes might be a result of what has happened in  Venezuela past and present.....

The term puppet government comes to mind.....

HELLO PUPPET!!!

 

It really is a case of Its a little bit me, Its a little bit you too!!!

 

American Foreign policy....Karma is a bitch and it bit ..GM in the ass this instance...

 

Trump and Trudeau...have certain things to work out as Trump has fired SEVERAL salvos up North the last 48 hours...

Its Star Wars Episode 1 The Phantom Menace all over again

Something about trade routes...

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

All I know is that there sure are some sensitive and rather sanctimonious folks here in regards to any criticism of capitalism while they can seemingly dish it out freely towards anything not related to capitalism. Simply astounding. 

[hyperv6]

22 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

All I know is that there sure are some sensitive and rather sanctimonious folks here in regards to any criticism of capitalism while they can seemingly dish it out freely towards anything not related to capitalism. Simply astounding. 

No we are just people with our own views that express them as you do. 

You have your view and we have ours. 

I am not trying to convert or change you thinking. To me it is nothing  more than debate.

You appear to be taking it personal when it is just an opposing view. 

Trust me I lose no sleep over this. 

I see you as a good person but just with a view I do not agree with and just was debating it. I would trust you see me in the same light. 

My feathers are not ruffled so neither should yours be. 

 

 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

No we are just people with our own views that express them as you do. 

You have your view and we have ours. 

I am not trying to convert or change you thinking. To me it is nothing  more than debate.

You appear to be taking it personal when it is just an opposing view. 

Trust me I lose no sleep over this. 

I see you as a good person but just with a view I do not agree with and just was debating it. I would trust you see me in the same light. 

My feathers are not ruffled so neither should yours be. 

 

 

There is nothing personal. Just nothing the views being espoused by certain posters, escpecially ones who seem incapable of seeing any gray area in the subject. Nothing less, nothing more. If you interpreted that as me taking it personal, then you are wrong. 

[Drew Dowdell]

We live in a capitalist/socialist hybrid. 

What capitalists don't like to admit is that we got "great" by adopting more socialism and we've gotten less great as we've moved towards more pure capitalism.   The reality is there is a scale and somewhere mid-point between socialism and capitalism is the best point. 

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We live in a capitalist/socialist hybrid. 

What capitalists don't like to admit is that we got "great" by adopting more socialism and we've gotten less great as we've moved towards more pure capitalism.   The reality is there is a scale and somewhere mid-point between socialism and capitalism is the best point. 

That's the gray area I was speaking of but too many folks think it is a matter of simple black and white. It isn't and has never been that simple. 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We live in a capitalist/socialist hybrid. 

What capitalists don't like to admit is that we got "great" by adopting more socialism and we've gotten less great as we've moved towards more pure capitalism.   The reality is there is a scale and somewhere mid-point between socialism and capitalism is the best point. 

Really @hyperv6, you're going to vote me down because I said the world isn't black and white?  Or are you just one of those who doesn't like to admit that socialism had a large part in pushing this country forward?

[hyperv6]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

There is nothing personal. Just nothing the views being espoused by certain posters, escpecially ones who seem incapable of seeing any gray area in the subject. Nothing less, nothing more. If you interpreted that as me taking it personal, then you are wrong. 

Just passion brother that is all it is.

I also love to debate a worthy opponent. 

Then you have the total idiots on both sides that want to debate but can't even tell you who their Senator is.

But I guess it takes all kinds. 

If we disagree never mistake my passion as a lack of respect for you. We my not always agree but you do have my respect.

 

[hyperv6]

29 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Really @hyperv6, you're going to vote me down because I said the world isn't black and white?  Or are you just one of those who doesn't like to admit that socialism had a large part in pushing this country forward?

I would not do it if it were a negative but I do feel it is a neutral.

Socialisam while not entirely bad also as some nasty side effects that did not build this country for the first 150 years.

social programs came mostly during FDR and many were only intended to be temporary. 

As a whole I feel many make people less self reliant and the goverment more irresponsible. 

Many today have been trained not to use the kind social programs as a way ahead but as a way of life. I have spent 20 years in the worst parts of town and learned first hand the good and bad it has brought with it. For some they turn it into a industry. The Arab store keepers buying and selling food stamps amoung other things driving new Jags and much more.

Most generations learned to collect the money and now their kids and grand kids do the same. Want more money have more kids or get divorced and double dip, there are a 101 games.

The polititions promise the world for free and promise to tax the evil rich to pay for it. They are just buying votes with social programs.

God knows we should offer help to those who will work that may not make as much and stop paying many to stay home. I remember many would joke how they made more not working tha working.

We do not teach self reliance anymore. We do not teach personal responsibility anymore. We do not teach good work habits or anything about moral or ethical standards. 

Sorry but just doing goverment hand outs are like free cheese it is a bandaids on a gaping infected wound.

The first 15o years of this country and the 300 years before the founding you took responsibility or you died. You made your own way or you died.

The truth is we are just one magnetic pulse away from millions dying in less than six months. Why will they die. They depend on the goverment and others to the point they can no longer make it on their own. Also many will turn on others and feed off the weak.

Not being doom and gloom here but my family came here in the 1600's to escape pusicution in Europe. They had to take care of them selves as no one else would. It made them tougher, smarter and self sufishiant.

Free collage? No one paid for mine. I got a job and payed my way changing oil and other tasks working six days a week. I am one of many doing this. No one owed me anything. 

As for the rich. Were some see evil if they made it legally I see a lesson to be learned when I see them make it on their own. We should hold these people up as example of what can be legally done. My company owner is a great example as he started the company in a bedroom and today is now a large international company. He also has started other companies and expanded ours and now provides good livings for more than a high tax rate woud ever do. 

There is always areas the goverment will need to be involved like defense and health on a national level. But much of the rest should be up to the states.

I gave you a plus one for the new photo. Much better.

Edited April 23, 2017 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

The idea that the New Deal was supposed to be temporary (nothing which could be further from the truth, especially given the quotes from FDR at the time) is the EXACT reason why we are falling behind again today. 

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

I would not do it if it were a negative but I do feel it is a neutral.

Socialisam while not entirely bad also as some nasty side effects that did not build this country for the first 150 years.

social programs came mostly during FDR and many were only intended to be temporary. 

As a whole I feel many make people less self reliant and the goverment more irresponsible. 

Many today have been trained not to use the kind social programs as a way ahead but as a way of life. I have spent 20 years in the worst parts of town and learned first hand the good and bad it has brought with it. For some they turn it into a industry. The Arab store keepers buying and selling food stamps amoung other things driving new Jags and much more.

Most generations learned to collect the money and now their kids and grand kids do the same. Want more money have more kids or get divorced and double dip, there are a 101 games.

The polititions promise the world for free and promise to tax the evil rich to pay for it. They are just buying votes with social programs.

God knows we should offer help to those who will work that may not make as much and stop paying many to stay home. I remember many would joke how they made more not working tha working.

We do not teach self reliance anymore. We do not teach personal responsibility anymore. We do not teach good work habits or anything about moral or ethical standards. 

Sorry but just doing goverment hand outs are like free cheese it is a bandaids on a gaping infected wound.

The first 15o years of this country and the 300 years before the founding you took responsibility or you died. You made your own way or you died.

The truth is we are just one magnetic pulse away from millions dying in less than six months. Why will they die. They depend on the goverment and others to the point they can no longer make it on their own. Also many will turn on others and feed off the weak.

Not being doom and gloom here but my family came here in the 1600's to escape pusicution in Europe. They had to take care of them selves as no one else would. It made them tougher, smarter and self sufishiant.

Free collage? No one paid for mine. I got a job and payed my way changing oil and other tasks working six days a week. I am one of many doing this. No one owed me anything. 

As for the rich. Were some see evil if they made it legally I see a lesson to be learned when I see them make it on their own. We should hold these people up as example of what can be legally done. My company owner is a great example as he started the company in a bedroom and today is now a large international company. He also has started other companies and expanded ours and now provides good livings for more than a high tax rate woud ever do. 

There is always areas the goverment will need to be involved like defense and health on a national level. But much of the rest should be up to the states.

I gave you a plus one for the new photo. Much better.

Shall I list the long list of side effects of capitalism? Shall I also point out the fallacy of continuing to equate you (and your family's) experience with the other 330 million people in this country as the be all, end all of pointing out the superiority of capitalism? 

 

For the record, this is the black and white line of thinking I am talking about and honestly it is not even worth any more of my time to discuss it with people who continue to see that way, no matter what they are told. I will say this. I love how you think people can only build a successful business in a purely capitalist environment. Guess all those successful businesspeople in Europe are just pathetic loserrs who don't know anything about hard work because they happen to live in a socialist country.

[oldshurst442]

That is funny...

My grandparents and my mom came from a so called socialist country...Greece, to come to another socialist country...Canada.

yet...no hand-outs were made to my family either...neither from Greece nor from Canada...

That would be 4 generations now...

33 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Not being doom and gloom here but my family came here in the 1600's to escape pusicution in Europe. They had to take care of them selves as no one else would. It made them tougher, smarter and self sufishiant.

Free collage? No one paid for mine. I got a job and payed my way changing oil and other tasks working six days a week. I am one of many doing this. No one owed me anything. 

Nope...nobody paid for my dad's education in socialist Canada.

Nobody paid for mine nor my wife's education in Canada.

We all paid for it by ourselves. My parents had money saved up for me...but my wife had poorer parents than mine so she had to work part time jobs...

My kids...well. Im setting money aside for them. I have a healthy amount right now for them!!!\

The thing is...in socialist Canada...there are savings programs for education...

The Canadian guvment gives me a dollar for every dollar I put into an education fund!!!

The thing is...the USA offers that same deal...

Yes Hyper...even in your capitalistic America...there are SOCIAL programs for the GREATER GOOD of YOUR people!

Unless of course you want to abolish all that and go back to how it was...

Law of the jungle? THAT is what you want to go back to?

Because THAT is what your post suggests!

 

We all have opinions dude!

We are all entitled to them!

But...when I talk to people...and my points get brushed under a rug to have YOUR points be front and center like its some sort of golden rule...then it ceases to be about respect!

 

56 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

Socialisam while not entirely bad also as some nasty side effects that did not build this country for the first 150 years.

social programs came mostly during FDR and many were only intended to be temporary. 

As a whole I feel many make people less self reliant and the goverment more irresponsible. 

Many today have been trained not to use the kind social programs as a way ahead but as a way of life. I have spent 20 years in the worst parts of town and learned first hand the good and bad it has brought with it. For some they turn it into a industry. The Arab store keepers buying and selling food stamps amoung other things driving new Jags and much more.

Most generations learned to collect the money and now their kids and grand kids do the same. Want more money have more kids or get divorced and double dip, there are a 101 games.

The polititions promise the world for free and promise to tax the evil rich to pay for it. They are just buying votes with social programs

As for the rich. Were some see evil if they made it legally I see a lesson to be learned when I see them make it on their own. We should hold these people up as example of what can be legally done. My company owner is a great example as he started the company in a bedroom and today is now a large international company. He also has started other companies and expanded ours and now provides good livings for more than a high tax rate woud ever do. 

There is always areas the goverment will need to be involved like defense and health on a national level. But much of the rest should be up to the states.

All that in your post...

ALL JIBBERISH AND BULLSHYTE!

It aint even an opinion or fact or an opinion based on fact!

You have abusers in all kinds of political ideologies...

You have lazy asses in all kinds of political ideologies...

You have thieves and cons in all kinds of political ideologies...

 

I aint trying to change your mind...don't care...

But I see right through the bullshyte!

 

You wanna talk about respect?

HA!

You ignore me!!!

I don't care...makes me laugh...

And do you know why?

Because I know YOU cant DEAL WITH MY REALITY!!!

MY reality is a complete opposite of yours!

I don't let up on you, and THAT is why YOU ignore me!!!

Edited April 23, 2017 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

That is funny...

My grandparents and my mom came from a so called socialist country...Greece, to come to another socialist country...Canada.

yet...no hand-outs were made to my family either...neither from Greece nor from Canada...

That would be 4 generations now...

Nope...nobody paid for my dad's education in socialist Canada.

Nobody paid for mine nor my wife's education in Canada.

We all paid for it by ourselves. My parents had money saved up for me...but my wife had poorer parents than mine so she had to work part time jobs...

My kids...well. Im setting money aside for them. I have a healthy amount right now for them!!!\

The thing is...in socialist Canada...there are savings programs for education...

The Canadian guvment gives me a dollar for every dollar I put into an education fund!!!

The thing is...the USA offers that same deal...

Yes Hyper...even in your capitalistic America...there are SOCIAL programs for the GREATER GOOD of YOUR people!

Unless of course you want to abolish all that and go back to how it was...

Law of the jungle? THAT is what you want to go back to?

Because THAT is what your post suggests!

 

We all have opinions dude!

We are all entitled to them!

But...when I talk to people...and my points get brushed under a rug to have YOUR points be front and center like its some sort of golden rule...then it ceases to be about respect!

 

All that in your post...

ALL JIBBERISH AND BULLSHYTE!

It aint even an opinion or fact or an opinion based on fact!

You have abusers in all kinds of political ideologies...

You have lazy asses in all kinds of political ideologies...

You have thieves and cons in all kinds of political ideologies...

 

I aint trying to change your mind...don't care...

But I see right through the bullshyte!

 

You wanna talk about respect?

HA!

You ignore me!!!

I don't care...makes me laugh...

And do you know why?

Because I know YOU cant DEAL WITH MY REALITY!!!

MY reality is a complete opposite of yours!

I don't let up on you, and THAT is why YOU ignore me!!!

Well said but I don't know why the middle quote had me as who said it lol. I know who you were talking to though. 

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Well said but I don't know why the middle quote had me as who said it lol. I know who you were talking to though. 

I must have used YOUR post to quote @hyperv6 post...sorry.....

Yes indeed, it was @hyperv6 that I was  quoting and referring too!!!

After all,  it was HIS post!!!

[hyperv6]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The idea that the New Deal was supposed to be temporary (nothing which could be further from the truth, especially given the quotes from FDR at the time) is the EXACT reason why we are falling behind again today. 

The real reason the new deal was put in was to keep the people from rising up. Yes there was a humanitarian side but most all great uprisings against goverments are due to poor economies and poor people. Don't believe it then go back and read your history. 

Quotes mean little as they seldom show true intent.

But if you look at most of the programs none were intended to be long term and most of them went away a long time ago too. 

Like the Federal income tax it came stated as temporary but became perminste as politicians became addicted to spending other people's money.

We are falling behind because we have become a very undisciplined, lazy, spoiled society that expect everything is given. 

I hate to say it but we have gone way too long with no hard times. My father grew up where they stood in line when he was a small child to get food and most of the rest The grew, raised and slaughtered to put food on the table. Today the guy bumming money at the off ramp has a record, out standing warrants for selling drugs and $4000 of ink on his body. He interrupts his begging with cell phone calls when he takes a break at his car across the street. Isolated no as the guy who replaces him the next day is just like him. 

I agree there are some in need but most of them know where you go and if they want to escape that life they do,Many just repeat the same mistakes loaded up on Heroin or some other mind altering substance they can not afford because they were never taught right and wrong because Dad was gone and Mom had the same bad habits. This guys kids and grand kids will fall even farther behind and remain dependent on the goverment. 

It is fine to help people but we need to break the cycle and stop calling everything an illness and hold them accountable.

The reason I have no addictions and no record and a generally good life is due to my parents setting standards in how I lived, what I did and who I hung out with. This is a major issue today and the root of our decline.

[hyperv6]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Shall I list the long list of side effects of capitalism? Shall I also point out the fallacy of continuing to equate you (and your family's) experience with the other 330 million people in this country as the be all, end all of pointing out the superiority of capitalism? 

 

For the record, this is the black and white line of thinking I am talking about and honestly it is not even worth any more of my time to discuss it with people who continue to see that way, no matter what they are told. I will say this. I love how you think people can only build a successful business in a purely capitalist environment. Guess all those successful businesspeople in Europe are just pathetic loserrs who don't know anything about hard work because they happen to live in a socialist country.

Capitalism is far from perfect as stated in my Churchill quote but it is a far site better than any alturnitive. 

At least here you have many opportunities to change you life and fortune but else where you do as they say and live as they say or else. Speak out you get sent to a cold place if you are lucky if you are not lucky they never find you body or you are hung in a court yard of the village as an example.

Socialisam has places that it works but generally they are small low population countries that are very passive. Even then they have to hope the wrong person never gets elected as that person can take everything away from the at any moment since they depend on the Goverment on nearly everything.

So yes capitalism is not always fair but so is life in general. I have a cousin dying of cancer that just retired at 48. That is not fair but what can you do. I just saw a small child died of a heart issue just weeks old fair no but it is part of life.

Most of life is two choices. We as humans try to fudge it but like the old line a lie is a lie and there is no in between.

Edited April 24, 2017 by hyperv6

[FAPTurbo]

this thread's proof that americans can't tell the difference between democratic socialism and totalitarianism but what else can we expect from people who invented chicken fried steak and hemorrhoid donuts for their fat, slovenly asses.

[Drew Dowdell]

it's utterly ridiculous and a failure of our education system that this thread even exists.  The number of falsehoods in @hyperv6 post from 8 hours ago is enough to make any 6th grade teacher want to quit their job and go be a sniper instead.

Puritans did NOT come to the the new world to escape persecution. You apparently never learned anything about them beyond the cartoony 4th grade level.   The Puritans came here because they weren't allowed to persecute to the level they wanted to.  King Charles I, who himself was not afraid to have people killed for not adhering to a rather strict faith, had to tell the Puritans to knock it off with the persecution of other religions.  So in an effort to be as strict as possible they decided to break away from England.  Even when they came to the new world, the Puritans would execute followers of other faiths.  So let's make sure we get the facts straight.... the Puritans were the contemporary equivalent of Wahhabism type of Islam.  

Just to correct at least one of the falsehoods in that long post. 

[loki]

39 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

King Charles I, who himself was not afraid to have people killed for not adhering to a rather strict faith, had to tell the Puritans to knock it off with the persecution of other religions.

hypocrites, that what those people were...except the king was the biggest one cause he had the power - army - , oh wait, he the authority also, being the head of the religion NVM!!!! 

[surreal1272]

@hyperv6--You spoke of the 150 years of pure capitalism building this country prior to the New Deal. Does that include the same capitalism responsible for the railroad industry that ran rough shod accross this country, displacing Native Americans while being built by Chinese and Mexican slave labor? How about our vast agriculture that was made successful by African American slave labor? Or how about the budding industrial revolution which led to such fine labor practices such as child labor and Irish slave labor? I can go on if you'd like but I am curious as to which part of early American capitalism should we owe our "success"? This country was built by economic tyrants.

 

We won't even get into you Puritan statements since Drew covered the bases there. f@#king puritans, a group so uptight that England said "get the f@#k out".

[FordCosworth]

I downvote your whiny white guilt and condescending attitude. 

The whole damn world was built by " economic tyrants who exploited slaves ". FYI, the term  “slave” stems from “Slavic” i.e. can be a reference to the experience of millions of (white) Slavish people who endured centuries of slavery at the hands of African muslims. This, of course, is a most inconvenient truth, for it is a most Politically Incorrect truth. But truth is the truth. Easy enough to read about it too and includes most all countries and races, yet I don't see you crying for them.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

That would be relevant had we been talking about that period in time.  We are not.  We are discussing the 150 or so years of "pure capitalism" that @hyperv6 referred to.... a capitalism that only existed due to theft, indentured servitude, and slavery by the capitalists..... or as Hyper likes to call it "the good old days"

[surreal1272]

12 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

I downvote your whiny white guilt and condescending attitude. 

The whole damn world was built by " economic tyrants who exploited slaves ". FYI, the term  “slave” stems from “Slavic” i.e. can be a reference to the experience of millions of (white) Slavish people who endured centuries of slavery at the hands of African muslims. This, of course, is a most inconvenient truth, for it is a most Politically Incorrect truth. But truth is the truth. Easy enough to read about it too and includes most all countries and races, yet I don't see you crying for them.

 

Not applicable because none of those you mention are CAPITALIST societies. Did you forget that is what we were talking about about? Did you forget that the point of supporting capitalism was to illustrate how much better this country was than those Muslim societies you clearly dislike? Did that simple fact somehow slip that bigoted mind of yours? Your disdain for muslims aside (while excusing centuries of the same damn thing done by Christians), stick to the subject which was the pros and cons of capitalism vs socialism. I pointed out to hyper6 that the first 150 years of this country's capitalist success comes with huge caveats. It's simple history that apparently you don't get. You want to talk about all those other societies done in by Muslim rule? Start a thread about but that was not what was being talked about here. 

 

BTW, what is your trick for determining "white guilt" and a "condescending attitude"? Is it connected to the actual words being said or who said them. Seems like the latter to me.

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That would be relevant had we been talking about that period in time.  We are not.  We are discussing the 150 or so years of "pure capitalism" that @hyperv6 referred to.... a capitalism that only existed due to theft, indentured servitude, and slavery by the capitalists..... or as Hyper likes to call it "the good old days"

He only brings up other BS because who made the posts though Drew It really has nothing to do with the subject hence him trying to point out my "condescending attitude" and my "white guilt". For the record, I have no white guilt. That's just a term made up by flaky liberals and twisted by shortsighted conservatives who wouldn't know guilt if it slapped them upside the head with a brick. I simply understand the history better than him because I do not see it as a black and white issue where as he gets hung up on anything Muslim. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@FordCosworth--The lesson here is, context is your friend. Guess some people are easily triggered just by expressing a simple opinion. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

It is relevant....Since the actual topic of the thread some morphed into this " USA and the past 150yrs "... 

Narrow minds miss the big picture.

[surreal1272]

5 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

It is relevant....Since the actual topic of the thread some morphed into this " USA and the past 150yrs "... 

Narrow minds miss the big picture.

Did you look in the mirror when you said "narrow minds"? Again, it is not relevant to capitalism in the U.S. when you bring up a subject NOT RELATED to capitalism in the U.S. All you are trying to do is deflect because you were triggered by my post. Again, if you want to talk about Muslim slave holding nations, start a thread about it but it has jack $h! to do with what is being discussed here.

 

BTW, Greece wasn't related to the subject either but it didn't stop you from bringing it up the first chance you got (a point you later denied making).

Edited April 24, 2017 by surreal1272