Cadillac News: Rumorpile: Peeking Into Cadillac's Product Crystalball

[hyperv6]

The problem with the XTS is this. 

It is not the floaty boat of yesteryear but it is not a  sport sedan either. I is a luxury sedan based on a FWD Buick and Chevy. 

The heritage of the car for the many who know where it is based hurts it in their minds image. In this class you can not screw around too much with the younger buyers because they are smarter and on line to be better informed. 

While it is still a good car it makes it hard for some to pay that kind of a price for a better Buick. 

If Cadillac was content with running with Lincoln then the XTS would be fine. When it was developed GM was at a point that was their contention as this is really a car based in the pre bankruptcy of GM and Shelved till they came out and was used to buy time their they got their direction and footing. Many sides inside GM were fighting for the direction and finally Ruess got it in the one direction and put JDN to take them there. 

This infighting is why the message of Cadillac as been so mixed over the last so many years. Also it is why they has so much turn over at the head of the division.  You will also see this is why they are in NYC not so much for culture but to get the division the hell away from GM and those there that meddle.

Mark went though hell and back for the CT6 and even then it was compromised because he did not get all he wanted. JDN is more the non GM insider that is not intimidated by the old guard and he is going to do what he and Mark thinks needs done.

Another thing that has tossed a monkey wrench in this is that the market is changing fast and the CUV and SUV segment is changing fast. This was all the while when GM was also replacing the SUV and CUV platforms.

When looking at the Cadillac question you have to take all factors into consideration. This is not just a product decision  but  one of budgets, manpower, internal politics,  market changes and time lines. All of this is in play. Then you have to factor in they are buying the time marketing wise till they get the new product that will take time to earn it's spot in the hearts of the buyers. 

Like every batter at the plate wants a home run most will take the single as this is a step forward to earn the lead. Each of these steps is one step to a win. 

So you can sit here and debate the short term issues or irrelevant problems but it is the big picture that will make the difference here. 

I swear some here focus so much on the petty bug on the windshield and never see the road forward. 

The fact is better product is coming, No not one single one will solve all the problems. No using old names will not solve the problems. No bench seats and fender skirts will not solve the problems they face. But if they can get all positive moves with each and every product in styling, quality and desirability they will move around the bases score runs with the customer and over time win the game. 

Cadillac does not have to sell more cars than BMW or Benz to be successful. The key here is to build a rep and image that will sell more cars at higher prices per unit sold. This segment is one that really is profitable and volume is not a major factor as much as ATP. The profits in these models are only surpassed by Trucks and it is the most profitable car segment. Chevy has to sell a number of cars to see the same profits one Cadillac has. 

So keep this in perspective and watch the bottom line. If Cadillac makes more money then this is a total win. 

As for the XTS it is still a transitional car and it will linger as long as it is making money. I do not expect it to be replaced with a similar model in the future. It may be replaced with a CUV of a similar size. 

 

 

[67impss]

19 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

product is what defines a name and name do not define product.

As damaged as some of the names were they would be better off leaving the emblems off all together. 

If you are going to define your product by the name you are lacking in product. 

You can name your kid Elvis but that is no promise he can sing.

Hyper just for clarification are we defining the Fleetwood name as damaged because of the last iteration D body or previous series.

I'd agree with the assessment of the previous D bodys being in the float your boat crowd, but the last version could be thrown though emergency maneuvers better than cars weighing 1000lbs less and that lt1 was gold at that time. IMOHO

[hyperv6]

1 hour ago, 67impss said:

Hyper just for clarification are we defining the Fleetwood name as damaged because of the last iteration D body or previous series.

I'd agree with the assessment of the previous D bodys being in the float your boat crowd, but the last version could be thrown though emergency maneuvers better than cars weighing 1000lbs less and that lt1 was gold at that time. IMOHO

Anything from the last 30 years has a bit of damage to it to most non traditional Cadillac customers.

Even as fun as the last fleetwood was to us enthusiast the people that Cadillac needs to draw in are people who saw it for what really was a Caprice. 

While you and I love it because of the Chevy roots the customer paying twice the Caprice price was not interested. 

No bashing the car as it was a fine car for what it was but it is not how Cadillac wants to be defined today. The more space between GMs other divisions the better. 

Now I know there will always be platform sharing but today they do a much better job of tailoring them apart.

i love the Chevy engines but Cadillac needs their own  engines or at the very least their own versions like the TT V6 that they do not share. 

People paying more want more than shared Chevy parts at this price point. At zbuick share away but at Cadillac they need their own things.

even now JDN is working to have their own designers and engineers that only work for Cadilac. No more work on the CTS on Monday and work on a Cruize one Friday engineers.

 

 

[67impss]

I kinda think that was the fail/fall of GM the closing of the Motor divisions the bean counters got their way and then it was just cut and paste all the way to bankruptcy. They rode a long and valiant ride but for every Ferro we got a Aztec (funny that both were Pontiacs) without divisional engineers who don't group think it'll be cut and paste all over again.

In all fairness though the engines are pure GM There aren't any traces of Chevrolet other than bore spacing. If other manufacturers can do it that way ? The divisional engineers working with powertrain should work. Though I don't like the Corvette direction as it appears to be arcing (I hope that we will still have an entry level pushrod) there will be a premium V8 soon.

I still think that you and others are very wrong on the Traditional American fullsize auto, while smaller volume of sales they are needed and as a plus would be a police usage. Agreed that Cadillac wouldn't wade into those waters this time but left to Chevrolet only. The whole reason that we're in SUV's is the downsizing of American autos then subsequent regrowth. Cars just flat out get better mileage it's physics of frontal area mass.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, 67impss said:

I kinda think that was the fail/fall of GM the closing of the Motor divisions the bean counters got their way and then it was just cut and paste all the way to bankruptcy.

100% agree, and I've stated it here going back YEARS. General Motors was atop it's broad zenith when the Divisions strove to compete against all others plus (to some degree) the other Divisions. And this wasn't on a marketing level, but an engineering level. A great time in the industry.

[hyperv6]

1 hour ago, 67impss said:

I kinda think that was the fail/fall of GM the closing of the Motor divisions the bean counters got their way and then it was just cut and paste all the way to bankruptcy. They rode a long and valiant ride but for every Ferro we got a Aztec (funny that both were Pontiacs) without divisional engineers who don't group think it'll be cut and paste all over again.

In all fairness though the engines are pure GM There aren't any traces of Chevrolet other than bore spacing. If other manufacturers can do it that way ? The divisional engineers working with powertrain should work. Though I don't like the Corvette direction as it appears to be arcing (I hope that we will still have an entry level pushrod) there will be a premium V8 soon.

I still think that you and others are very wrong on the Traditional American fullsize auto, while smaller volume of sales they are needed and as a plus would be a police usage. Agreed that Cadillac wouldn't wade into those waters this time but left to Chevrolet only. The whole reason that we're in SUV's is the downsizing of American autos then subsequent regrowth. Cars just flat out get better mileage it's physics of frontal area mass.

Here is the deal. You can call it GM but it is the same damn engine found in the Chevy truck Corvette and Camaro for better or worse. When you sell around 3 million plus of said engine in a Chevy it is more Chevys engine than anyone's. You want performance parts you look up Chevy. You and to buy the direct from GM you get the Chevy Performance book. 

Like I said it is a great engine but Cadillac needs to offer more than what can be had in a lesser priced car. It is a matter of image and value for the customer at the higher price paid. 

Police are faster and faster going to V6 CUV/SUV models the Explorer in particular at Fords fire sale price of $26K per unit. Not only do they get AWD but they get a V6 that is easier on the budget. High Speed persuits are not really an iussue as most of these V6 engines have plenty of power and Durability has not even been an issue. Off road is even better and more room inside. 

The deal with the divisions is GM had way too many models and they killed all that were not global in some significant form namely China. It was not the bean counters it was just simple math of investment and return. In the high cost of development making single market models make no Cents anymore along with a lot of Dollars. Trust me I am a die hard Pontiac fan still with a flawed but loved Fiero in the garage but they were damage so that it would have taken billions to save that GM really needed at Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. Trust me if there was just one legitimate reason to save Pontiac I would be on the soap box but pure economics of not being global doomed them. 

GMC can get away with is as they are just higher value Chevy models and cost little to keep around and are so profitable with the Denali line that if GMC was an independent company they would rank 150 on the Fortune 500 list in profits alone. 

The Corvette is going where it has to go. There is no more that can be done in this world of 700 Hp+ cars today. You have to move the engine to center the mass and get a lower profile. Now do  not be fooled that it is going to have to cost $200K as we will get a base model like the Stingray in the $70K range. Yes there will be more expensive models as the coming ZR1 that will be closing in on $150K. It comes down to how much do you want to pay and how much carbon fiber do you want or can afford. 

To move forward you have to let go of the past including some sacred things. 

Just look at the Amish they have held onto the past and look what they are driving for better or worse. 

The whole reason for the SUV/CUV is this. 

The CUV is an outgrowth of the Minivan. The Minivan showed people how a two box vehicle can be more usable and more practical in this consumer world of function over style. 

The CUV is really more a blending of what a man will accept and what a woman wants to buy. Lets face it most Minivan males have their balls in the wife's purse. I would never buy a Minivan but I am ok driving the wife's Terrain. Seeing women now influence over 50% of sales this must not be ignored. 

It is tough styling a two box but as long as they don't go Aztek then people tend to be ok with it. 

The problem you will face with the push rod is this. A GM drive train engineer said they will have to in the near future do DOHC on most models as the two valve engines just will not meet the future emission standards. While Trump may back off the Fed standards there are states that will not. They will make the switch not because they want to but because they will have to. 

The Corvette will be the first to move to this engine and they carry the push rods on a while but in time it will be replaced and we also will see them in the Camaro and trucks. 

Now word is the Chevy version and the Cadillac are two different sizes and different engines with the Cadillac getting TT. We will have to wait and see. 

GM nearly died from not making the changed years ago and they will not make the same mistake twice as the next time it will be fatal. You may have to give up on some sacred things but that is part of survival. Sometimes you have to lose a finger to save a hand. 

This is not my opinion it is just how the market works today and how things are going. This is what GM people and others in the market are saying. They are the ones dealing with the realities. 

The fact you see GM designing and building transmission for Ford and Ford helping pick up some of the funding. I laughed when I saw the first Aluminum F150 coming out of the Warren proving grounds. Who would have ever though they would see a top secret Ford truck testing at the GM proving grounds. That speaks volumes of the realities of economics. 

If you want to make a lot of profit today best to get out of auto MFG market. 

[hyperv6]

By the way if it were not for China and the Denali profits GM would be Chevy, Cadillac and Holden and that is it. 

Look at all MFG outside VW and PSA and most are two divisions and some small domestic divisions. 

VW has managed it so far but the Diesel thing could have done much more damage. They got lucky. The PSA deal is a formula for failure as they just don't have the global love and volumes that VW has with the lesser priced cars and VW also makes a ton of their exotic brands at low volumes. 

GM is still one of the few that can do it all from engineering of gas, Diesel electric and Hydrogen cars. Few MFG could have done the Bolt or any of the other EV cars on their own, 

I see GM doing more partnerships where MFG will come to them to share cost on programs and components GM will design and use along with the partner. They have one of the best tech centers and staffs in the world and they can cut cost by doing more programs like they have done with Ford, Honda and BMW in the past.  The others will be calling as they will not be able to do it on their own. especially the EV. 

[smk4565]

I could see Police departments going to Edge and Acadia size vehicles, even Escape and Equinox for city use when you don't really need highway acceleration power.  Even an Explorer is pretty large and thirsty; Police cars will downsize in time just like every thing else.

Holden could be gone soon too.  

EV will rise, it hasn't hit that tipping point yet.  EV is still too expensive, but when the price eventually drops, it could replace gas cars in a hurry, so car makers have to be ready.  All the more reason for Cadillac to be on board with EV's and this product plan doesn't include any.

[daves87rs]

Reading through the comments, I might be the only one who thinks this way at the moment:

Caddy needs to worry less how many models they have and worry more about getting the cars they have right now done the best that they can. When these cars/trucks are a success, then you add more as you see fit...

If they go ahead ans dump a bunch of models on to the market, they will end up half ass. This might work for chevy (nobody might notice), but it's a bit different when it is your halo brand.  

The first need to hit the market, no doubt. They need to get those SUV/CUVs out there, to claim their stake. Might not hurt to throw something different out there different from everyone to make this brand your own, and not a copy of someone's else.

 

I think they can do, it, just make sure it is planned out right.....

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

EV is still too expensive, but when the price eventually drops, it could replace gas cars in a hurry, so car makers have to be ready.  All the more reason for Cadillac to be on board with EV's and this product plan doesn't include any.

Yup!

This is a perfect example how a brand can miss the trends and become irrelevant...

EVs are slowly but surely growing..and once they reach that tipping point you mention, they will explode in sales...

Contrary to what sales data may want to say, or examples of how SUVs sales really started in the 1960s but exploded in the 1990s...because I have something to say about that...

The Detroit 3 missed the clues that gas was gonna be expensive, and insurance premiums on muscle cars, and got caught with their pants down in the 1970s and just handed their market share to the Japanese when they had no small cars to sell and produced crappy small cars. The Japanese built crappy cars in this time, the problem was the American small car was crappier. How could big SUVs sell in this time when full sized cars were downsized and were not selling as much as before?  It took a decrease in fuel prices in the late 1980s to spark an SUV craze in the 1990s...

EVs...

It seems forever that our politicians ARE WARNING US OF HIGH GASOLINE PRICES...

It seems like forever that TREE HUGGERS ARE MORE MORE CONTROLLING AND REGULATING HOW WE LIVE...

It seems like forever that EVERY STEP IS TAKEN TOWARDS EVs...

And I dont know where other people live, but in Montreal, even though EVs are not exactly taking us by storm here either, WE COULD SENSE, FEEL, HEAR, SEE, SMELL, the tides turning towards EVs...

Cadillac had a sexy EV. Too expensive, but it was there...and it was available before many others...where is it now?

M-B, Porsche, Audi, Volvo, Jag, BMW...and others are telling us that by 2025, they will have many many cars and SUVs that will be electric only vehicles...

COUNTRIES are telling us THEY WILL BE BANNING gasoline powered cars...some countries its in WRITING AS OF NOW...

Where does Cadillac stand?

One step behind, like usual for the last 30 years...

PS: The Escalade may be a hit now....but it was Johnny Come Lately...GM is phoquing lucky that the Escalade caught on...

1. The Navigator was sooooo much more than the Escalade the first 5 years as the Escalade's 1st generation was a make shift Yukon/Tahoe and the 2nd generation not much better...

2. Although  Lincoln brought out the Navigator that caught Cadillac and GM with their pants down, GM was lucky Lincoln flubbed it big time...

3. Even Oldsmobile saw it coming as the Bravada's 1st genertion was on the Syclone platormed Jimmy...in the late 1980s or early 1990s when the Bravada came out...

 

People could use semantics to downplay my thinking about land yachts with the XTS...the reality is that the same crowd that used to buy Fleetwoods in the late 1980s along with the FWD Sedan Deville...who also stuck around to buy the Caprice 9C/Impala SS Fleetwood and DeVille , who then stuck around when the Fleetwood got killed and the DeVille became DTS also stuck around to buy the XTS because Cadillac is STILL afraid to let go of this crowd, hence the stigma I talked about...

So...maybe the XTS may not be a land yacht,  it sure plays to that crowd..

And maybe the Escalade is not a land yacht either, it sure plays to that image...

I aint sayin'  that the Escalade is a bad thing to sell, what I am saying is that the land yacht stigma is alive and kickin'.

The Escalade being a positive(maybe), but the XTS is a definite negative...

Spin what I have said in anyway you want to now, I think my thought process is logical enough where I dont have to justify it any longer...

           

15 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Caddy needs to worry less how many models they have and worry more about getting the cars they have right now done the best that they can.

Agreed..

But they need the cars that are in the 'hot' niches as fast as they could possibly make them and they best make them BETTER than the best that they can...

[Suaviloquent]

It is going to tke quite a few years. And there are not many domestic luxury options out there. But the imports all in some way huddle along the same lines, or have similar turf wars.

 

Having options is one reason alone why sales are harder for Cadillac. 

I have no clue what Cadillac should do, it seems like they can get away with both feet in the water, but does anyone even expect a true S-Class rival to all of a sudden create a dent in S-Class sales? I don't think so. The new LS is considered one of the few non-German compeition, and that takes a reputation to build up that car, but Lexus let it rot for too long. 

 

I think Cadillac is better off building more high-end SUVs and crossovers. Stick to what you know you can always be good at. I think the S-Class rival needs to in itself not be targeted at the S-Class. More like make a low volume Escala production vehicle, and make it truly aspirational. Make it more of an S600 Maybach competitor. 

 

But GM has to be willing to put money into its interiors, and there is not one GM vehicle which I think has the best interior in its class, regardless of price. 

[hyperv6]

8 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Reading through the comments, I might be the only one who thinks this way at the moment:

Caddy needs to worry less how many models they have and worry more about getting the cars they have right now done the best that they can. When these cars/trucks are a success, then you add more as you see fit...

If they go ahead ans dump a bunch of models on to the market, they will end up half ass. This might work for chevy (nobody might notice), but it's a bit different when it is your halo brand.  

The first need to hit the market, no doubt. They need to get those SUV/CUVs out there, to claim their stake. Might not hurt to throw something different out there different from everyone to make this brand your own, and not a copy of someone's else.

 

I think they can do, it, just make sure it is planned out right.....

No you are not alone and it is just what is going on. The deal is it takes time money and man power so it tales a while. 

Also once the product gets here it will take time for each model to earn equity.

The key is Cadillac is making money now. Better product, more CUV models and an earned better image will come over time that they do have.

This is not a deal Chevy could work with but in the Cadillac segment it can work.

Just now, hyperv6 said:

No it is just what is going on. The deal is it takes time money and man power so it tales a while. 

Also once the product gets here it will take time for each model to earn equity.

The key is Cadillac is making money now. Better product, more CUV models and an earned better image will come over time that they do have.

This is not a deal Chevy could work with but in the Cadillac segment it can work.

 

[ccap41]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 5:25 PM, smk4565 said:

They don't have anything high end except the Escalade though.  That has always been a struggle since the Allante in the 80s, they can't crack into that top tier of high end cars.

What isn't high end about their V Series?

[surreal1272]

On 3/31/2017 at 3:25 PM, smk4565 said:

They don't have anything high end except the Escalade though.  That has always been a struggle since the Allante in the 80s, they can't crack into that top tier of high end cars.

This would disagree with your assessment that Cadillac has nothing high end other than the Slade. 

 

[ccap41]

9 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

This would disagree with your assessment that Cadillac has nothing high end other than the Slade. 

 

If I'm not mistaken.. It whoops up on AMG's as well.

[smk4565]

By high end I mean cars with base price of $80 or even 100k.  CTS-V is like a $90k car but based on a $46k car.  it is still a mid size luxury segment car.  Cadillac lacks the S-class, SL, Porsche 911, Audi R8, BMW i8, M760iL sort of cars in the $100-200k range.

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

If I'm not mistaken.. It whoops up on AMG's as well.

It won't whoop up on an E63 S, and AMG has several offerings above the E-class with the 65 series cars and the GT series.  Plus they have the Project 1 Hyper car that will beat everything, LaFerrari included, however at a crazy price.

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It won't whoop up on an E63 S, and AMG has several offerings above the E-class with the 65 series cars and the GT series.  Plus they have the Project 1 Hyper car that will beat everything, LaFerrari included, however at a crazy price.

All o the 65's are slower than their own 63's so we can axe those.

The only performance metric the E63 S has over the CTS-V is accelerating from a stop. The porky 4500lb AMG doesn't turn or stop as well as the V nor does it have the top end the V has. It literally just has AWD.

The GT is the only one what would truly whoop up on the CTS-V.

That project 1 looks terrible, if it ends up anything like the pictures I've seen. Give me one of the other 3 hyper cars that look much more beautiful in the P1, LaFerrari or 918.

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

By high end I mean cars with base price of $80 or even 100k.  CTS-V is like a $90k car but based on a $46k car.  it is still a mid size luxury segment car.  Cadillac lacks the S-class, SL, Porsche 911, Audi R8, BMW i8, M760iL sort of cars in the $100-200k range.

So Mercedes only has the S, G and GT as  "high end cars"? Funny story, lowly Chevy has a couple of cars that will shame 911's.

You're so full of sh!t sometimes.

[ccap41]

It is cute that Mercedes had to take a note out of peasant Ford's book by adding a Drift Mode.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

It won't whoop up on an E63 S, and AMG has several offerings above the E-class with the 65 series cars and the GT series.  Plus they have the Project 1 Hyper car that will beat everything, LaFerrari included, however at a crazy price.

Way to sidestep the fact that you were wrong in stating that Cadillac has nothing upper end other than the Slade. 

 

Oh and a half million dollar car hyper car better damn sure beat everything. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

By high end I mean cars with base price of $80 or even 100k.  CTS-V is like a $90k car but based on a $46k car.  it is still a mid size luxury segment car.  Cadillac lacks the S-class, SL, Porsche 911, Audi R8, BMW i8, M760iL sort of cars in the $100-200k range.

The CTS-V is more than $100K but nice attempt at moving the bar again. 

 

Btw, a base Slade starts at $73K. Maybe you didn't notice that while you were attempting to move said bar. 

 

The AMG E Class is also not high end, by your own definition since the base model starts well south of $80K. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

By high end I mean cars with base price of $80 or even 100k.  CTS-V is like a $90k car but based on a $46k car.  it is still a mid size luxury segment car.  Cadillac lacks the S-class, SL, Porsche 911, Audi R8, BMW i8, M760iL sort of cars in the $100-200k range.

Moving the Field Goal post AGAIN!.

CTS Starts at $45,995 with Turbo 4 Banger 268 HP 295 lb-ft

CTS-V starts at $85,995 with 640 HP 630 lb-ft

CTS-V weight 4141

E-Class starts at $52,150 with a Turbo 4 Banger 241 HP 273 lb-ft

AMG E-Class starts at $72,400 with 396 HP 384 lb-ft

AMG E-Class weight 4145

Here are fully loaded everything I could add results and the CTS-V tops your $100K where AMG E-Class DOES NOT.

End Result is CTS-V eats the AMG!

AMG - $94,205

AMG Spec

CTS-V $100,245

CTS-V Spec

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

It won't whoop up on an E63 S, and AMG has several offerings above the E-class with the 65 series cars and the GT series.  Plus they have the Project 1 Hyper car that will beat everything, LaFerrari included, however at a crazy price.

WRONG, There is NO E65 available in the US. Their own web site only allows an E43. Even the lower C63S cannot beat the CTS-V.

Apple to Apple Sedan Comparison is that MB looses to Cadillac in an AMG to CTS-V comparison. 

ACCEPT THE FACTS

MB only wins above this class based on the facts of the web site.

[ccap41]

@dfelt That's the half-assed AMG. The real E63 AMG starts around 100kl(for some weird ass reason it's super difficult to just find a starting price for those damn things).

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

@dfelt That's the half-assed AMG. The real E63 AMG starts around 100kl(for some weird ass reason it's super difficult to just find a starting price for those damn things).

Not according to their web site MBUSA.com They clearly state that the AMG E43 Sedan starts at $72,400.

 

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Not according to their web site MBUSA.com They clearly state that the AMG E43 Sedan starts at $72,400.

 

Read E63 as E43, Just called the Seattle MB dealership asking about this and was informed that the E63 is a future model that is not available for order or sale at this time and they have no further information than what MB has stated on the web site under the AMG listing. 

I was invited to come in and test drive the inspiring AMG E43.

So at this time, E63 is vaporware.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Way to sidestep the fact that you were wrong in stating that Cadillac has nothing upper end other than the Slade. 

 

Oh and a half million dollar car hyper car better damn sure beat everything. 

The CTS-V is more than $100K but nice attempt at moving the bar again. 

 

Btw, a base Slade starts at $73K. Maybe you didn't notice that while you were attempting to move said bar. 

 

The AMG E Class is also not high end, by your own definition since the base model starts well south of $80K. 

$2,500,000 hyper car to be fair.

I was looking at the CTS line overall, CTS is not a high end car.  E-class isn't either, it is the mid-level Mercedes, they have a CLS, S-class, SL, AMG GT, and G-wagen above it.

Escalade starts near $75k so even if it tops out at $99k, there isn't a low end model out there.  Escalade is the top level Cadillac right now.    

The E43 AMG starts at $72k yes, and it did just win a Car and Driver comparison beating the CTS V-sport, 540i and A6.  But the E63 which isn't on sale yet will probably start at $100k.

Looking at CTS sales numbers though, how much longer will the car even be around?

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Moving the Field Goal post AGAIN!.

CTS Starts at $45,995 with Turbo 4 Banger 268 HP 295 lb-ft

CTS-V starts at $85,995 with 640 HP 630 lb-ft

CTS-V weight 4141

E-Class starts at $52,150 with a Turbo 4 Banger 241 HP 273 lb-ft

AMG E-Class starts at $72,400 with 396 HP 384 lb-ft

AMG E-Class weight 4145

Here are fully loaded everything I could add results and the CTS-V tops your $100K where AMG E-Class DOES NOT.

End Result is CTS-V eats the AMG!

AMG - $94,205

AMG Spec

CTS-V $100,245

CTS-V Spec

WRONG, There is NO E65 available in the US. Their own web site only allows an E43. Even the lower C63S cannot beat the CTS-V.

Apple to Apple Sedan Comparison is that MB looses to Cadillac in an AMG to CTS-V comparison. 

ACCEPT THE FACTS

MB only wins above this class based on the facts of the web site.

E63 not on sale yet, goes on sale this summer.  The E43 should be compared to the CTS turbo V6.  E63 S is on sale now in UK for £88,295 for whatever that is worth.

Edited April 3, 2017 by smk4565
addition

[surreal1272]

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

$2,500,000 hyper car to be fair.

I was looking at the CTS line overall, CTS is not a high end car.  E-class isn't either, it is the mid-level Mercedes, they have a CLS, S-class, SL, AMG GT, and G-wagen above it.

Escalade starts near $75k so even if it tops out at $99k, there isn't a low end model out there.  Escalade is the top level Cadillac right now.    

The E43 AMG starts at $72k yes, and it did just win a Car and Driver comparison beating the CTS V-sport, 540i and A6.  But the E63 which isn't on sale yet will probably start at $100k.

Looking at CTS sales numbers though, how much longer will the car even be around?

E63 not on sale yet, goes on sale this summer.  The E43 should be compared to the CTS turbo V6.  E63 S is on sale now in UK for £88,295 for whatever that is worth.

 

"The Escalade is the only high end Cadillac"

"I'm talking about $80-$100K base price when I say high end"

 

Put the bar down. We are done here. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Not according to their web site MBUSA.com They clearly state that the AMG E43 Sedan starts at $72,400.

 

Yes, that's the half-assed "AMG". Hence the sub 400hp, V6, and "43". You know real AMG cars are 5-600hp! The 2018 E63 AMG S is 603hp.

[G. David Felt]

33 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, that's the half-assed "AMG". Hence the sub 400hp, V6, and "43". You know real AMG cars are 5-600hp! The 2018 E63 AMG S is 603hp.

Not up to snuff compared to the 640 of the V! But then badge snobs will not care.

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Not up to snuff compared to the 640 of the V! But then badge snobs will not care.

Oh helllllls nah it isn't! The only real advantage the AMG has over the V is its 0-60 with its AWD.

[smk4565]

58 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Not up to snuff compared to the 640 of the V! But then badge snobs will not care.

640 horsepower isn't any good if you can't put it on the ground.  The Hellcat has 707 hp, doesn't make it a better car than a CTS-V.  The E-class will crush any mid-size sedan in interior, refinement, interior noise, luxury amenities, etc.  The new E63 is going to surprise some people on it's performance data.

Credit to the CTS V-sport for being 2nd place in C&D's recent comparison, it had good performance numbers and handling, but again, Cadillac build quality plagues it.  Until they fix their refinement, interior and build quality issues, doesn't really how much power they put into the CTS or ATS V-series.

[ccap41]

All of those lame-ass things that us enthusiasts don't care about when bench racing.(being a smartass)

Also, it's ~20k more so it ought to.

Edited April 3, 2017 by ccap41

[balthazar]

EV is still too expensive, but when the price eventually drops

2001 Prius MSRP : $19,995
2017 Prius MSRP : $24,685

I know it's not an EV, but there's some overlap. My point is- vehicle prices don't go down, they only go up. EV battery costs may come down, but the cars won't ever get appreciably cheaper. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

All of those lame-ass things that us enthusiasts don't care about when bench racing.(being a smartass)

Also, it's ~20k more so it ought to.

Nevermind his blatant contradiction "putting the power down" when the V puts it down better than most in the world. Fact is that the V was the better performer in that test and the only thing they really railed on was regarding Cue. 

[smk4565]

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

 

2001 Prius MSRP : $19,995
2017 Prius MSRP : $24,685

I know it's not an EV, but there's some overlap. My point is- vehicle prices don't go down, they only go up. EV battery costs may come down, but the cars won't ever get appreciably cheaper. 

Cars don't get cheaper, but EVs will to some degree and they will add range and power.  The problem with most EV's now is poor range.  If a Nissan Leaf starts at $30k now with 125 mile range or whatever it is, supposed in 5-to years it is still $30k but has a 350 mile range.  By that point in time an Altima will be $30k also, and the Leaf looks like a good buy.

The shell and interior of the car are going to cost the same, once you can build batteries and electric motors for the same price of a gas engine and transmission, the EV takes over.

[smk4565]

8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Nevermind his blatant contradiction "putting the power down" when the V puts it down better than most in the world. Fact is that the V was the better performer in that test and the only thing they really railed on was regarding Cue. 

Probably why a 640 hp CTS-V does 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and a 444 hp Audi S6 does 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, and the Audi weighs more.  

[balthazar]

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cars don't get cheaper, but EVs will to some degree and they will add range and power.  The problem with most EV's now is poor range.  If a Nissan Leaf starts at $30k now with 125 mile range or whatever it is, supposed in 5-to years it is still $30k but has a 350 mile range.  By that point in time an Altima will be $30k also, and the Leaf looks like a good buy.

The shell and interior of the car are going to cost the same, once you can build batteries and electric motors for the same price of a gas engine and transmission, the EV takes over.

If they sell today @ $X, and they increase range & power, the price is going to go UP, not down.

In what bizzaro world do you think a Leaf won't see a 1 dollar MSRP increase in 10 years time? But BTW, it'll take the Leaf 30 years to go from 80 miles to 350, if it ever gets there at all. It took it 7 years to go from 73 miles to 84- that's 1 mile range increase per model year- at that rate it'll take 250 model years to reach 350. Leaf will never look like a good buy vs. an Altima unless gas prices explode to $10/gal.

[smk4565]

The Volt has added range and gotten cheaper.  I doubt the Bolt is selling for $50k base in 2025.  These things will get more cost effective.  

And if you want performance you'll have to have electric or plug in.  The emissions and fuel economy standards around the world will kill V8s and larger engines.  So the future sports cars and sport sedans, big luxury cars etc, will have to have some form of electrification. 

[balthazar]

But once again- there will be no marketshare swap with IC in a mere 10 years. You're looking at a solid 30.
As long as the bulk of an OEMs vehicles supply compliance with CAFE (if it stays), there will be room for high performance IC cars.
The monster problem is finding whatever the happy medium is between where OEMs wish to be with EVs and what consumers are willing to sign for.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

But once again- there will be no marketshare swap with IC in a mere 10 years. You're looking at a solid 30.
As long as the bulk of an OEMs vehicles supply compliance with CAFE (if it stays), there will be room for high performance IC cars.
The monster problem is finding whatever the happy medium is between where OEMs wish to be with EVs and what consumers are willing to sign for.

But the take rate is already there for performance EVs, in time it will spread down.  Tesla is selling 2,000 Model S per month or around that, no Cadillac sedan can sell at that rate or that price.  Ditto for Audi A6 and A8.  What if Tesla sells 5,000 Model 3 a month?  That would beat ATS, CTS and CT6 combined.  So then what does Cadillac do?    And Tesla doesn't even have the production capacity or dealership network to move big numbers, but BMW, Mercedes and Audi/Porsche do.  Once they dive in, they still steer the luxury market that way.

[balthazar]

The "take rate already there" for EVs in total is 1%.
There are no "big numbers"- Mercedes can sell millions of cars/yr but only 600 EVs/yr.

You are talking about a fantasy market at this point.

[Guest AsianPersuasian]

Cadillac really needs a new look. Everything looks the same as it did 10 years ago.  Art and Science is now Old Fart and Mylanta.  They think that they are branding to young millennials, but they are not. Just old hipster wannabes.  Just stick to floaty boats that keep old bones from fracturing at every pothole. 

[balthazar]

29 minutes ago, Guest AsianPersuasian said:

Cadillac really needs a new look. Everything looks the same as it did 10 years ago.  Art and Science is now Old Fart and Mylanta.  

Here's what the competition has been up to over the last EIGHTEEN years ('99-'16) :

Want to re-evaluate your position any?

- - - - -

Cadillac looks nothing like it did 10 years ago, never mind 18. 
Now, which one looks more contemporary, the CTS or the bottom BMW?

Edited April 4, 2017 by balthazar

[Guest AsianPersuasian]

Cadillac just fell to Lincoln.

Cadillac and Lincoln Value

[surreal1272]

On 4/5/2017 at 4:11 PM, Guest AsianPersuasian said:

Cadillac just fell to Lincoln.

Cadillac and Lincoln Value

Meanwhile Cadillac enjoys more sales and a higher ATP. They'll be fine against Lincoln.