Quick Drive: Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport Q4

[Anthony Fongaro]

This short drive, I drove something I didn’t think I ever would. It wasn't a six-figure super car that can do over 200 mph. No, I never thought I would be driving a modern Alfa Romeo in the United States. For the last 10 years, only two Alfa Romeos have made it to our shores carrying ridiculous price tags. Now, Alfa Romeo is taking a stand with its new Giulia sedan and it’s not what I expected.

That isn’t a bad thing. What I expected was the same old stereotype of every Italian sedan. Beautiful design and leather, electronics that don’t work and eventually can’t keep up with the Germans. In terms of style, the Giulia isn’t actually pretty. In fact, I would say it seems a bit tame. I understand why they would stay a bit conservative coming back into the market, and the styling cues on the top-of-the-line Quadrifoglio are more dramatic. The front end is classic Alfa Romeo with its upside-down triangle grill.

Hop inside and the first thing you see is a rather large steering wheel. Alfa probably figured that if Ferrari puts their start/stop button on their steering wheel, why shouldn’t they? The gauges are large and clear as is the 8.8” widescreen display right next to them. Place your hand behind the shifter and a large disc controls that display similar to the systems in Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Sadly, while everything in the front of the cabin feels modern, the navigation system looks like it came from the early 2000s. The graphics aren’t quite as detailed as its rivals but the system does work well .

Once you turn the Giulia on, the magic starts to happen. The steering is sharp and direct. Stomp on the gas pedal and the 2.0-liter turbocharged inline four sounds fantastic. The engine produces 280 horsepower and 306 lb-ft of torque at 2,000 rpm. Combine this with both all-wheel-drive and an 8-speed automatic, Alfa claims 60mph will be hit in around the 5 second mark. While driving the car, you get the feeling that the spark is really coming back with Alfa Romeo. No longer do you have to pine for an Italian vehicle that is usable but not too quirky like a Fiat. Shifting gears can be done with the oversized paddle shifters or with the gear selector. I found the paddle shifters to be a bit too big but they worked well.

While driving, you will notice a rotary nob with “DNA” on it. D is for Dynamic, N is for Natural, and A is for Advanced Efficiency. Since the weather was dry, I did half of my drive in Normal and half in Dynamic. If this was my vehicle, I would keep it in Dynamic at all times since Dynamic has a sharper throttle and a more robust exhaust note. As for efficiency, the two-liter engine is rated at 22 mpg city and 31 mpg highway.

This particular Alfa Romeo did have a few features worth mentioning. First is the 900-watt Harmon/Kardon 14-speaker sound system. There also was a panoramic sunroof (which in my tester was broken. Not a good sign before driving it). It also had the Driver Assistance Dynamic and Driver Assistance Static Packages. Dynamic gets you adaptive cruise control, automatic high beam headlight control, and forward collision warning. Static gets you blind spot monitoring and cross pass detection. There were also the beautiful 19” wheels which made my test car look great.

I left my drive wondering how this will do against competition. Pin it against German rivals and I think the Giulia can go blow-for-blow against them. It may not have all the safety of a Mercedes or a complex all-wheel-drive system of an Audi, but the way that it drives, stops, and corners makes up for it. Finally, we have an Italian sedan that is attainable. Hopefully it doesn't suffer from "Alfa-itus" of older Alfa Romeos.

Photo courtesy of FCA Media

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[G. David Felt]

Awesome write up, thanks for sharing. Too bad a new car put out for test driving has such a black eye out of the box. BROKEN PANORAMIC SUNROOF. Right there it shows their history of building piss poor auto's and why they will fail. The first cars should be perfect coming back into a market where the majority of people who remember Alfa and have driven them, worked on them, etc. know what garbage they are. 

Wait and see, but I bet this car is eaten alive by Consumers Reports and everyone else in the auto world that did not take marketing money from Alfa. 

Hate to say it but I do not expect them to succeed. History is against them. Sergio should have never wasted the Billions taken from the American nameplates. IF he was Smart, he would have reinvested that money in them and made them better rather than trying to bring back a dead name plate.

[surreal1272]

So my question is, was this a pre-production tester  @Anthony Fongaro?

[Anthony Fongaro]

Actually no, this was a production vehicle.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

Good write-up.  I think the start-stop button being on the wheel was due to the relationship Alfa-Romeo and Ferrari had while this vehicle was being developed. A lot of Ferrari went into this vehicle before Serg sold off that brand.  It was probably 97% done by the time of the sale.

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, Anthony Fongaro said:

Actually no, this was a production vehicle.

 

That's what I thought. So it seems like it's not just the preproduction Alfas suffering from quality issues. Interesting and not a good sign for FCA. 

[smk4565]

I don't see how you let a test car out with something broken on it.  You want the press cars in tip top shape.  This is the battle they will have to fight, even if it drives great, people will wonder if it will break all the time and would they just be safer buying a German car.  You can't afford to have customers feel like they are gambling when buying your product.

[ccap41]

4 hours ago, Anthony Fongaro said:

There also was a panoramic sunroof (which in my tester was broken. Not a good sign before driving it).

@Stew 

@Anthony Fongaro Very good write up, I enjoyed it. Out of curiosity what are your 3 favorite things about the car and your 3 least favorite things about the car after getting some seat time?

Edited March 15, 2017 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

@Stew 

And it was not a preproduction model. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see how you let a test car out with something broken on it.  You want the press cars in tip top shape.  This is the battle they will have to fight, even if it drives great, people will wonder if it will break all the time and would they just be safer buying a German car.  You can't afford to have customers feel like they are gambling when buying your product.

Take a Cadillac and support America over this Garbage back in the States!

[Anthony Fongaro]

39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

@Stew 

@Anthony Fongaro Very good write up, I enjoyed it. Out of curiosity what are your 3 favorite things about the car and your 3 least favorite things about the car after getting some seat time?

I liked the steering, the seats, and the engine. I didn't like the navigation system, the paddle shifters were a little big and the obvious: the "Alfa-itus" of the sunroof not working.

[William Maley]

Question from the peanut gallery here - How the Giulia ride when you're not hustling it around some corners?

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see how you let a test car out with something broken on it.  You want the press cars in tip top shape.  This is the battle they will have to fight, even if it drives great, people will wonder if it will break all the time and would they just be safer buying a German car.  You can't afford to have customers feel like they are gambling when buying your product.

This wasn't a press car, but @Anthony Fongaro can correct me if I'm wrong.

[ccap41]

52 minutes ago, Anthony Fongaro said:

I liked the steering, the seats, and the engine. I didn't like the navigation system, the paddle shifters were a little big and the obvious: the "Alfa-itus" of the sunroof not working.

Thanks!

Interesting how the 'car-guy' things are what makes the car good but the 'everyday people' things on the inside is where it faults. That could be a tough sell to the masses.

Come to think of it, I think I'm going to be asking this same question to a lot more reviewers. I like it. It's simple and gets some highs and lows that aren't factual(like a 0-60 time) but opinionated and valued as a consumer.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ccap41

[Stew]

Sucks about the sunroof.  how many miles were on the car and it's history?  Still can't gleam reliability from early test reviews and really have to wait until the second model year since first ones on new cars generally suck (aga, the exploding engines on early stingrays which 1 mag had 2 engi nes go which IMHO is a LOT worse than a sunroof needing repair.  Both vettes were VERY low mileage to, full production cars and one was even their long termer.  

[Anthony Fongaro]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This wasn't a press car, but @Anthony Fongaro can correct me if I'm wrong.

This is true. The car I drove was not a press car. 

[Anthony Fongaro]

15 minutes ago, Stew said:

Sucks about the sunroof.  how many miles were on the car and it's history?  Still can't gleam reliability from early test reviews and really have to wait until the second model year since first ones on new cars generally suck (aga, the exploding engines on early stingrays which 1 mag had 2 engi nes go which IMHO is a LOT worse than a sunroof needing repair.  Both vettes were VERY low mileage to, full production cars and one was even their long termer.  

The Giulia I drove had around 50 miles on it.  After I drove the car, the dealership I went to was going to send the car back to Alfa Romeo to have the sunroof malfunction analyzed. I haven't seen other reviews of the regular Giulia, but I've seen that the Giulia Quadrifoglio has been alright for the most part. We just have to wait and see. 

[Stew]

3 minutes ago, Anthony Fongaro said:

The Giulia I drove had around 50 miles on it.  After I drove the car, the dealership I went to was going to send the car back to Alfa Romeo to have the sunroof malfunction analyzed. I haven't seen other reviews of the regular Giulia, but I've seen that the Giulia Quadrifoglio has been alright for the most part. We just have to wait and see. 

Car and Driver just did a comparison where the Quadrifoglio  came out on top of the C63, M3, and ATS-V with no issues and Motor trend did a 9 car test where the regular Giulia finished 1st with no issues beating out 8 rivals.  it is a wait and see, it is just annoying when people automatically damn it when their choices aren't exactly the top of the reliability game themselves (not talking about you and thanks for the response)......

[Stew]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Take a Cadillac and support America over this Garbage back in the States!

Check MT's latest comparison, one had issues with the infotainment and the other had no issues, hint the Alfa's system was not the one with issues

[Stew]

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

Awesome write up, thanks for sharing. Too bad a new car put out for test driving has such a black eye out of the box. BROKEN PANORAMIC SUNROOF. Right there it shows their history of building piss poor auto's and why they will fail. The first cars should be perfect coming back into a market where the majority of people who remember Alfa and have driven them, worked on them, etc. know what garbage they are. 

Wait and see, but I bet this car is eaten alive by Consumers Reports and everyone else in the auto world that did not take marketing money from Alfa. 

Hate to say it but I do not expect them to succeed. History is against them. Sergio should have never wasted the Billions taken from the American nameplates. IF he was Smart, he would have reinvested that money in them and made them better rather than trying to bring back a dead name plate.

A non-functional sunroof on an early production model is NOT enough to say the quality is going to suck.  My brother's ATS is 15, 3rd year in prodcution, with less than 10k miles and has had to have the entire CUE infotainment headunit replaced AND the PCM flashed for shifting and rough idle issues........  Besides, what does the sunroof was broke mean?  it wouldn't open?  There were actual parts broken off?  Tremendous wind noise?  

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

A non-functional sunroof on an early production model is NOT enough to say the quality is going to suck.  My brother's ATS is 15, 3rd year in prodcution, with less than 10k miles and has had to have the entire CUE infotainment headunit replaced AND the PCM flashed for shifting and rough idle issues........  Besides, what does the sunroof was broke mean?  it wouldn't open?  There were actual parts broken off?  Tremendous wind noise?  

So we are moving the bar from not being able to criticize a preproduction model to not being able to criticize an early production model? 

[G. David Felt]

11 minutes ago, Stew said:

Check MT's latest comparison, one had issues with the infotainment and the other had no issues, hint the Alfa's system was not the one with issues

And as History has proven as well as many write ups, the Alfa is unreliable and too many people are idiots to learn CUE. I find just as many writeups where people wonder why others say it does not work. 

So I will damn them till they have some solid history as history is what we have and garbage is what dead Alfa built and died of.

Two sides to this coin and you only want to see the it's great best over everyone and yet just as many see problems and like this a production auto that is broken from the get go.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's an early production model on a brand new platform without any direct predecessor.  I wouldn't get too hung up on a sunroof issue.  Similarly, my 2004 CTS had a faulty sunroof switch that had to be replaced early in its life but that was literally the only warranty repair I had in 48k miles of ownership.

[hyperv6]

It is not what the Alfa does now that is the concern but how will it hold up long term and just how expensive will it be to maintain. 

Ferrari's are great cars but become money pits and price out  many owners that can afford the car but not to maintain it. 

Then you have the quality issues long term to consider. 

This is not just an Alfa issue but many cars in this segment. Some prove to be fairly maintenance free while others call for service plans that can be expensive and if ignored can lead to major failures. 

[William Maley]

34 minutes ago, dfelt said:

And as History has proven as well as many write ups, the Alfa is unreliable and too many people are idiots to learn CUE. I find just as many writeups where people wonder why others say it does not work. 

So I will damn them till they have some solid history as history is what we have and garbage is what dead Alfa built and died of.

Two sides to this coin and you only want to see the it's great best over everyone and yet just as many see problems and like this a production auto that is broken from the get go.

3

Umm, not fully sure about that (part I bolded). CUE has gotten better, but it is still a pain to use. A lot of it is because of decisions made by GM in terms of how the system was developed, various technical parts, and decisions on how the system is controlled. Sure, CUE takes a while to learn. But is the fault on the person who has decided to purchase the vehicle or the company that went forward with it? More on the latter than the former.

As for Alfa Romeo - Yes, the company has reputation for problematic vehicles. A Well deserved one at that. But the first year of any new vehicle from a manufacturer is going to have issues. I was reading today that Consumer Reports' Giulia Ti has already been to the dealership three times since they have bought it. If they waited a year on purchasing the Giuila, they maybe have one less visit to a dealer (only guessing here). 

I'm willing to hold off burning Alfa Romeo at the stake in terms of reliability for a couple of years till we get more data and experiences on it. If it stays the same or gets worse, then I'm all for being critical.

Besides, what made Alfa left the U.S. back in 1996 wasn't fully reliability - it was suffering significant losses due to poor sales and not wanting to make the investment to meet upcoming safety and emission standards.

[surreal1272]

The thing is that this is the same argument that was used for Fiat when they first came back here. How has that worked out for them? Last I checked, they were still huge piles so history is fair to use in the case of Alfa. 

[hyperv6]

The problem with Alfa is their reputation is much worse than Cadillac. 

They were always seen as the odd sedan with the grill like a Vagina. They were driven by the odd neighbor who used a fake Italian accent. They had rust problem, they has major repair cost and they have many catastrophic engine failures. 

When they were here they were little noticed and when they left no one notices. They are best know as a trivia question as to what car did Dustin Hoffman drive in the Graduate. 

On the other hand Cadillac has major work to do in getting the public to appreciate and trust them again. This is with a brand that once was the car of millionaires and the car that was a symbol of success. It too was damaged by many bad things over the last few decades but yet they still have a treasured past for most Americans while Alfa still remains the odd ball. 

Alfa globally has a better rep of their history due to racing. But yet little love for the modern models. But the pressure Sergio has placed on them has set them up to fail from the start. 
Sergio stated by next year they are to sell 140,000 units in N America and 400,000 units globally. That is not going to happen and odds are good that it will not happen in even 5-10 years even with the CUV. 

So Alfa here needs to create a love that never really existed from a fairly unknown history for a car in one of the toughest segments to break into. 

Then the VW question. If VW buys in what do they do with them. Take them and slip a Audi platform under the body? Do they sell them off since all they want are Jeep and Ram? 

This is a car for people who march to the beat of a different drum and are willing to accept the baggage that comes with the car like low resale and high repair cost. They can not use American pride like Cadillac or a history here that anyone recalls.  

[smk4565]

Alfa has a worse reputation than Cadillac, but a better product than Cadillac.  So that gives them a chance.  Something that can work in Alfa Romeo's favor is the majority of people under 30-35 don't really even know what Alfa Romeo is or much about their history.  They haven't been here in 20 years, if you are 30 now, you were 10 the last time they sold a new car here.  To younger buyers they don't have baggage like Cadillac or Lincoln might have.  The other question though is can 30 year olds afford Alfa Romeo pricing?  If Alfa has to rely on older buyers that remember what they were in the 80s, they have a big hill to climb.

 

If VW were to buy Alfa they would want that Georgio platform.  Every magazine ranks the Guilia over the M3 and C63, and you don't even see the A4 anywhere near those comparisons because it isn't competitive.  

[ccap41]

4 hours ago, William Maley said:

Besides, what made Alfa left the U.S. back in 1996 wasn't fully reliability - it was suffering significant losses due to poor sales

Those kind of go hand in hand when talking long term.. not necessarily but they CAN. 

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Something that can work in Alfa Romeo's favor is the majority of people under 30-35 don't really even know what Alfa Romeo is or much about their history

That is what I was thinking as well. They've been gone long enough that us youngsters don't really know about how bad they were unless they're a gear head. 

41 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If VW were to buy Alfa they would want that Georgio platform.  Every magazine ranks the Guilia over the M3 and C63, and you don't even see the A4 anywhere near those comparisons because it isn't competitive.

The A4 finished 2nd in the latest Motor Trend comparision w/ the 330i finishing 7th. 

[surreal1272]

20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Those kind of go hand in hand when talking long term.. not necessarily but they CAN. 

That is what I was thinking as well. They've been gone long enough that us youngsters don't really know about how bad they were unless they're a gear head. 

The A4 finished 2nd in the latest Motor Trend comparision w/ the 330i finishing 7th. 

Their $h!ty sales numbers and their $h!ty reliability absolutely went hand in hand. It's not even a debatable subject for anyone old enough to remember those piles (and I do lol). 

[Stew]

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

So we are moving the bar from not being able to criticize a preproduction model to not being able to criticize an early production model? 

 

14 hours ago, William Maley said:

Umm, not fully sure about that (part I bolded). CUE has gotten better, but it is still a pain to use. A lot of it is because of decisions made by GM in terms of how the system was developed, various technical parts, and decisions on how the system is controlled. Sure, CUE takes a while to learn. But is the fault on the person who has decided to purchase the vehicle or the company that went forward with it? More on the latter than the former.

As for Alfa Romeo - Yes, the company has reputation for problematic vehicles. A Well deserved one at that. But the first year of any new vehicle from a manufacturer is going to have issues. I was reading today that Consumer Reports' Giulia Ti has already been to the dealership three times since they have bought it. If they waited a year on purchasing the Giuila, they maybe have one less visit to a dealer (only guessing here). 

I'm willing to hold off burning Alfa Romeo at the stake in terms of reliability for a couple of years till we get more data and experiences on it. If it stays the same or gets worse, then I'm all for being critical.

Besides, what made Alfa left the U.S. back in 1996 wasn't fully reliability - it was suffering significant losses due to poor sales and not wanting to make the investment to meet upcoming safety and emission standards.

Surreal, those 2 Corvettes were production models, so.......

 

Dfelt, no they have not been proven unreliable.  Little electrical glitches in pre-production and early production models are not unheard of for ANY manufacturer.  Again, see Car and Driver having TWO Corvettes actually grenade their engines.  See early production Civics being recalled because the new 2.0 NA engine had issues, see GM's new 1.5 turbo in the Malibu LITERALLY melting their pistons, these are reliability issues.  i have yet to see where an Alfa actually broke down, the engine blew up, or it left the driver stranded. 

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Those kind of go hand in hand when talking long term.. not necessarily but they CAN. 

That is what I was thinking as well. They've been gone long enough that us youngsters don't really know about how bad they were unless they're a gear head. 

The A4 finished 2nd in the latest Motor Trend comparision w/ the 330i finishing 7th. 

We need a new RS4.  The A4 and S4 are great and i love the virtual cockpit.  The new A5 is really growing on me too.  BMW used to be everyone's darling, but they have seriously lost their way. 

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The thing is that this is the same argument that was used for Fiat when they first came back here. How has that worked out for them? Last I checked, they were still huge piles so history is fair to use in the case of Alfa. 

Mo.,o it isn't.  The Fiat's were old on old platforms well before they got here.  The only trul new Fiat is the 500X CUV and I haven't really seen data on it where it is so new, but my guess is, like the Renegade, the biggest thing was the first year tuning of the 9 speed auto. 

[surreal1272]

44 minutes ago, Stew said:

 

Surreal, those 2 Corvettes were production models, so.......

 

Dfelt, no they have not been proven unreliable.  Little electrical glitches in pre-production and early production models are not unheard of for ANY manufacturer.  Again, see Car and Driver having TWO Corvettes actually grenade their engines.  See early production Civics being recalled because the new 2.0 NA engine had issues, see GM's new 1.5 turbo in the Malibu LITERALLY melting their pistons, these are reliability issues.  i have yet to see where an Alfa actually broke down, the engine blew up, or it left the driver stranded. 

We need a new RS4.  The A4 and S4 are great and i love the virtual cockpit.  The new A5 is really growing on me too.  BMW used to be everyone's darling, but they have seriously lost their way. 

Mo.,o it isn't.  The Fiat's were old on old platforms well before they got here.  The only trul new Fiat is the 500X CUV and I haven't really seen data on it where it is so new, but my guess is, like the Renegade, the biggest thing was the first year tuning of the 9 speed auto. 

That wasn't my question and you are deflecting by continuing to bring up a car that does not have the $h!ty history that Alfa does. 

44 minutes ago, Stew said:

 

Surreal, those 2 Corvettes were production models, so.......

 

Dfelt, no they have not been proven unreliable.  Little electrical glitches in pre-production and early production models are not unheard of for ANY manufacturer.  Again, see Car and Driver having TWO Corvettes actually grenade their engines.  See early production Civics being recalled because the new 2.0 NA engine had issues, see GM's new 1.5 turbo in the Malibu LITERALLY melting their pistons, these are reliability issues.  i have yet to see where an Alfa actually broke down, the engine blew up, or it left the driver stranded. 

We need a new RS4.  The A4 and S4 are great and i love the virtual cockpit.  The new A5 is really growing on me too.  BMW used to be everyone's darling, but they have seriously lost their way. 

Mo.,o it isn't.  The Fiat's were old on old platforms well before they got here.  The only trul new Fiat is the 500X CUV and I haven't really seen data on it where it is so new, but my guess is, like the Renegade, the biggest thing was the first year tuning of the 9 speed auto. 

Yes it is 100% comparable and who gives two $h!s whether its an old platform or not. How many times does it have to be said that those cars are still being built by the same unreliable people with the same bad history, thus resulting in a subpar product? Sorry, but I will continue to call a spade a spade here.

 

The funny thing here is that you continue to use a car or two from different manufacturers to support your argument when it doesn't. Why? Because while it's true that others have problems with certain cars at one time or another, Fiat and Alfa had and continue to have problems with ALL of their cars ALL of the time and that is the difference you are clearly not getting. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by surreal1272

[Stew]

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That wasn't my question and you are deflecting by continuing to bring up a car that does not have the $h!ty history that Alfa does. 

Yes it is 100% comparable and who gives two $h!s whether its an old platform or not. How many times does it have to be said that those cars are still being built by the same unreliable people with the same bad history, thus resulting in a subpar product? Sorry, but I will continue to call a spade a spade here.

 

The funny thing here is that you continue to use a car or two from different manufacturers to support your argument when it doesn't. Why? Because while it's true that others have problems with certain cars at one time or another, Fiat and Alfa had and continue to have problems with ALL of their cars ALL of the time and that is the difference you are clearly not getting. 

Showing examples of $h!ty reliability from other manufacturers is certainly relevant here.  You want to damn this new car without any real data or proof and at the same time do not want other manufactures brought up because it invalidates your point.  You are the one not even giving a vehicle a chance while ignoring MAJOR quality and reliability issues from another manufacturer simply because you like them.  get real.  You Also keep bringing up reputation, but guess what?  GM doesn't exactly have a great quality record, especially Cadillac, but i don't see you holding that against them.......  It is like you want one to succeed and want the other to fail.  i personally want to see both succeed.  

[ccap41]

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Because while it's true that others have problems with certain cars at one time or another, Fiat and Alfa had and continue to have problems with ALL of their cars ALL of the time and that is the difference you are clearly not getting. 

THIS IS THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE!! 

[Stew]

Just now, ccap41 said:

THIS IS THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE!! 

Except this is the first large production Alfa in 20 years.  fiats, again, were old on old platforms before they ever crossed the ocean while this is a new platform with a proven transmission and an engine designed, like the platform, for far more mainstream models.   I hear your side of the story, but it isn't the only side.  You can down one car manufacturer because you don't want to succeed while ignoring the issues of the one you want to succeed.  GM's problems, for example, go FAR beyond the few small things i have listed.  

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

Except this is the first large production Alfa in 20 years.  fiats, again, were old on old platforms before they ever crossed the ocean while this is a new platform with a proven transmission and an engine designed, like the platform, for far more mainstream models.   I hear your side of the story, but it isn't the only side.  You can down one car manufacturer because you don't want to succeed while ignoring the issues of the one you want to succeed.  GM's problems, for example, go FAR beyond the few small things i have listed.  

Old on an old platform that they're selling. Probably doesn't satisfy any customer knowing they were sold something old and out of date that's unreliable any more knowing that.

How many Civics and Corvettes were known to be unreliable POS throughout the years? Because if the answer is anything other than "ALL OF THEM" then we're not being too fair, right?

[surreal1272]

5 minutes ago, Stew said:

Except this is the first large production Alfa in 20 years.  fiats, again, were old on old platforms before they ever crossed the ocean while this is a new platform with a proven transmission and an engine designed, like the platform, for far more mainstream models.   I hear your side of the story, but it isn't the only side.  You can down one car manufacturer because you don't want to succeed while ignoring the issues of the one you want to succeed.  GM's problems, for example, go FAR beyond the few small things i have listed.  

GMs problem are nowhere close to Fiat and Alfas. It's not even the same sport trying to compare Fiat and Alfa to any of the domestics, as a matter of fact. Again, history speaks for itself and is 100% relevant to today's product, bad sunroofs and all.

[Stew]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Old on an old platform that they're selling. Probably doesn't satisfy any customer knowing they were sold something old and out of date that's unreliable any more knowing that.

How many Civics and Corvettes were known to be unreliable POS throughout the years? Because if the answer is anything other than "ALL OF THEM" then we're not being too fair, right?

A $h! ton of Corvettes.  they were never known for their reliability or build quality.  Civic?  generally good there and that is why my next daily will be one.  The Giulietta in Europe actually does NOT have a bad reliability record so you cannot say all of them.  That car is also a high production unit which gives us a better idea than the Alfas built 20 years ago or low production sports cars. 

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

GMs problem are nowhere close to Fiat and Alfas. It's not even the same sport trying to compare Fiat and Alfa to any of the domestics, as a matter of fact. Again, history speaks for itself and is 100% relevant to today's product, bad sunroofs and all.

Nope, again, you are ignoring the issues of the manufacturer you want to succeed while damning the one the one you want  to succeed.  When Alfa left all GM had was pure, unreliable, poorly built garbage.  Every model basically across every manufacturer.  Same for Ford.  Yet, you ive them the benefit of the doubt when there is proof out there that they still aren't too great. 

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

A $h! ton of Corvettes.  they were never known for their reliability or build quality.  Civic?  generally good there and that is why my next daily will be one.  The Giulietta in Europe actually does NOT have a bad reliability record so you cannot say all of them.  That car is also a high production unit which gives us a better idea than the Alfas built 20 years ago or low production sports cars. 

Nope, again, you are ignoring the issues of the manufacturer you want to succeed while damning the one the one you want  to succeed.  When Alfa left all GM had was pure, unreliable, poorly built garbage.  Every model basically across every manufacturer.  Same for Ford.  Yet, you ive them the benefit of the doubt when there is proof out there that they still aren't too great. 

I am not ignoring anything Stew. I have clearly stated that the others have has their issues. It is you that has ignored the difference between them and Fiat/Alfa though, plain and simple. You have already moved the bar from not criticizing a preproduction car to now not criticizing an early or first year model car. I'm not even sure you would even have this stance if Fiat did not own Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep since you are a molar fan (nothing wrong with that btw, just to make that clear).

[Stew]

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I am not ignoring anything Stew. I have clearly stated that the others have has their issues. It is you that has ignored the difference between them and Fiat/Alfa though, plain and simple. You have already moved the bar from not criticizing a preproduction car to now not criticizing an early or first year model car. I'm not even sure you would even have this stance if Fiat did not own Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep since you are a molar fan (nothing wrong with that btw, just to make that clear).

I have actually been an Alfa fan, as i was Pontiac, I loved my flawed b and D bodies and MN12s.  You act as if I am only a one manufacturer fanboy.  guess what?  i have owned more GM than anything and a number of Fords.  Right now I have 2 Dodges, a Chevy, a VW, and a Toyota.   When Alfa left, GM and Fords were just as bad (i have owned a number of each from that era). 

[surreal1272]

10 minutes ago, Stew said:

I have actually been an Alfa fan, as i was Pontiac, I loved my flawed b and D bodies and MN12s.  You act as if I am only a one manufacturer fanboy.  guess what?  i have owned more GM than anything and a number of Fords.  Right now I have 2 Dodges, a Chevy, a VW, and a Toyota.   When Alfa left, GM and Fords were just as bad (i have owned a number of each from that era). 

Stop putting words in mouth Stew. Never said that you were a one brand fan but I know you are a fan of Mopar (damn autocorrect keeps changing it to "molar"), nothing less nothing more. Furthermore, I am actually old enough to have grown up with Fiats and Alfas (new models at the time) and that is why I will never trust them any farther than I can kick them. Again, while the domestics had their fair share of $h! on their hands, Alfa and Fiat stepped it up with good old fashioned diarrhea in bucket and it continues for another three decades after the crappy 80s while the domestics have improved drastically during that time. That is the fundamental difference here.

Edited March 16, 2017 by surreal1272

[Stew]

Just now, surreal1272 said:

Stop putting words in mouth Stew. Never said that you were a one brand fan but I know you are a fan of molar, nothing less nothing more. Furthermore, I am actually old enough to have grown up with Fiats and Alfas (new models at the time) and that is why I will never trust them any farther than I can kick them. Again, while the domestics had their fair share of $h! on their hands, Alfa and Fiat stepped it up with good old fashioned diarrhea in bucket and it continues for another three decades after the crappy 80s while the domestics have improved drastically during that time. That is the fundamental difference here.

You do remember the Ford and GM products of the time, right?  I got them because i liked them, but everyone had issues.  Blown headgaskets in my 3.8 T-Bird, every front end piece, AC, and blown out freeze plugs TWICE in my 5.0 T-Bird, and every GM had the fuel pump fail, front end issues, and the interiors literally fell apart in your hands.  We are talking about the same tim period here. 

[surreal1272]

Just now, Stew said:

You do remember the Ford and GM products of the time, right?  I got them because i liked them, but everyone had issues.  Blown headgaskets in my 3.8 T-Bird, every front end piece, AC, and blown out freeze plugs TWICE in my 5.0 T-Bird, and every GM had the fuel pump fail, front end issues, and the interiors literally fell apart in your hands.  We are talking about the same tim period here. 

Again, not debating the issues of the domestics as they are well documented and I have been a victim of them myself. However, they were far better than the crap being pumped out of Italy. Not sure why you keep sidesteepping that fundamental point but again, I am old enough to have experienced the repeated issues of Italian cars when they still existed in this country. It is also why I am not a fan of British cars.

[Stew]

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, not debating the issues of the domestics as they are well documented and I have been a victim of them myself. However, they were far better than the crap being pumped out of Italy. Not sure why you keep sidesteepping that fundamental point but again, I am old enough to have experienced the repeated issues of Italian cars when they still existed in this country. It is also why I am not a fan of British cars.

I guess my point is that they deserve the same chance as anyone else.  So far the issues have been minor and not unexpected for a new car on a new platform.  Kind of off-topic, but looking at the new Camry and hearing how good the new TNG platform is, everyone will have a lot to worry about as Toyota is coming back full force.  

[surreal1272]

Normally I would agree on that point but you don't get a chance when you have the worst reputation in the world. I'm just going to leave this snippet from a 2011 Autoblog article. Pay close attention to the part in bold and then try to civic events me that domestics were ever this bad. 

Putting Bad Quality in the Rearview Mirror

"As long as they have the quality high and competitive so as to avoid bad publicity, they will do well if they play up the 'La Dolce Vita" personality of Fiat and the Italian roots," says Charlie Hughes, industry consultant at Brand Rules, and the former marketing chief of Fiat when it was operating in the U.S. in the late 1970s.

Hughes says the dark days of terrible Fiat quality during the Carter administration will only be relevant to a small number of buyers with long memories. One of them is Thomas Pellechia of Hammondsport, NY, an author. Pellechia said he lusted for a Fiat X1/9 in 1976, paying $4,000 for a chocolate brown two-seater with removable hard top. "Driving the X1/9 was exactly what I had expected it to be -- heaven," he said. "It not only looked intriguing and pretty, it felt right and comfortable. Acceleration was exhilarating, shifting was effortless, and being seen in this car was essential."

Have you considered purchasing a Fiat 500?

Yes. I love them!	1 (50.0%)
No. Can't see myself driving one.

The exhilaration quickly gave way to misery. The car would start up fine, but after a short while would buck and overheat, according to Pellechia, who said that several trips to the dealer brought no relief. After a terrifying break-down in the Holland Tunnel between New Jersey and Manhattan, and with fewer than 2,000 miles on the odometer, Pellechia says he unloaded it for $1,500 to a used car dealer. While that was relatively low mileage, Pellechia says the warranty had expired at just 1,000 miles.

His experience wasn't unique. Hughes says of 100,000 Fiats sold in 1975, the company had huge warranty claims on 99,000. "It was bad, real bad," he said of the brand's quality.

Today Fiat still ranks below average in J.D. Power's Vehicle Ownership Satisfaction Study in Europe. But the 500 stands out as an exception, ranking as the top city car, for example, in France.

[Drew Dowdell]

Really?  A 1976?  Come on now... if we're going to expect people to stop bringing up the Cadillac Cimerron  or 8-6-4 in every CTS-V review, we need to let a 1976 Alfa go too.

As I said earlier... a faulty sunroof switch isn't that big of a deal.  My 2nd year CTS had a similar issue and it was otherwise rock solid after the sunroof dial was replaced under warranty. (I wish they'd bring that dial back as a sunroof control, so much better than the pushbutton)

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Really?  A 1976?  Come on now... if we're going to expect people to stop bringing up the Cadillac Cimerron  or 8-6-4 in every CTS-V review, we need to let a 1976 Alfa go too.

As I said earlier... a faulty sunroof switch isn't that big of a deal.  My 2nd year CTS had a similar issue and it was otherwise rock solid after the sunroof dial was replaced under warranty. (I wish they'd bring that dial back as a sunroof control, so much better than the pushbutton)

My best friend used to have a 1985 Spider (that was a year old at the time) that was the most horrible pile I have ever seen. Also, the point was to show that while GM and Ford had some lemons over the decades (especially in the 80s), they simply do not pale in comparison to the Greek tradgedies that were Fiat and Alfa back then. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I had two friends with similar vintage Firebirds that couldn't stay running when making right hand turns at suburban speeds. I'm still willing to forget about quality problems from 3 decades ago and give GM and Alfa a chance.

[surreal1272]

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I had two friends with similar vintage Firebirds that couldn't stay running when making right hand turns at suburban speeds. I'm still willing to forget about quality problems from 3 decades ago and give GM and Alfa a chance.

Again though Drew, my stance on Fiat is further supported by the current model of cars they offer, like the prize winner known as the 500. Their past is still present just by that one example. When I see three or four years of overall trouble free ownership of their cars, then I will be swayed. Until then, they have done nothing to convince me that they are any better than they were 30 years ago.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, surreal1272 said:

Again though Drew, my stance on Fiat is further supported by the current model of cars they offer, like the prize winner known as the 500. Their past is still present just by that one example. When I see three or four years of overall trouble free ownership of their cars, then I will be swayed. Until then, they have done nothing to convince me that they are any better than they were 30 years ago.

The 500 is a reliability dog, I know, but that doesn't mean the entire company is like that.