GM News: General Motors Plans More Cuts

[William Maley]

General Motors seems being in a cutting mood as it drives to improve its profit margins and stock price. Last week saw the sale of Opel and Vauxhall to PSA Group and it's only the beginning said GM CEO Mary Barra.

Automotive News reports that GM is considering reducing investments in North American cars and "select" international markets according to a chart that was shared during a conference call with analysts last week. The chart says these two earned a spot on the chopping block due to low profit potential and weak strength in franchises.

"There's a little bit more work that we're doing in the international markets. Our overall philosophy is that every country, every market segment has to earn its cost of capital," Barra said on the conference call. 

Barra and GM President Dan Ammann declined to go into details about these plans.

GM has already made significant changes in terms of their international operations by ending or reducing operations Australia, Indonesia, Russia, and Thailand. The automaker has also scaled back plans in India. The comments made during the call suggest more cuts could take place here and possibly elsewhere.

As for 'reducing investments in North American cars', this likely means GM is taking a hard look at various segments in passenger car segment. With consumers trending towards utility vehicles and trucks, sales of passenger cars have been falling precipitously. As of March 1st, dealers had four month's worth of inventory of cars, compared to an 81-day supply for light trucks and less than 60-days for full-size SUVs. GM could walk away from certain segments such as compacts or full-size sedans, or delay investments in certain models.

These moves will allow GM to funnel money into models that make more money, and returning capital to shareholders.

"That's an immediate opportunity for us to reward shareholders without changing the risk profile of the company or our ability to manage through a downturn," GM CFO Chuck Stevens said.

Analysts are mixed on GM's plans.

"It takes a lot of discipline to shift away from a volume-is-king kind of mentality," she said. "In the end, that's going to make a better GM -- a longer-standing company that's not only more profitable but more relevant," said Rebecca Lindland, a senior analyst with Kelley Blue Book to Automotive News.

John Murphy, an analyst with Bank of America Merrill Lynch isn't so sure about this plan.

"It appears that GM's recent decision-making has become much more short-term-focused and, in our opinion, could create challenges for the company in the coming years," Murphy wrote in a report.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[Stew]

Very interesting.........

[Cmicasa the Great]

Low ass margin on India. Seriously. Their population is less than China's but their condensing of the population requires mostly small cars.. and it isn't exactly the luxury car capitol either.. S.America political BS is hurting its economy. 

Its hard to speculate on this. GM does not want to get caught in the legendary 1996 debacle where they cut all their full-size cars and moved to SUVs.. of course back then no one had really heard of a car based SUV called CUV. Not to mention at this point CUVs are getting similar fuel economy as their counterparts in cars. I could see the Impala being merged into a niche RWD vehicle.. (Chevy Impala merges with Chevy SS anyone?) The Lacrosse and Regal become one.. with the Regal being the loser since the PSA deal.. but then again they have gone on record as saying that this next gen Regal/Commodore would not be affected. The Sonic/Spark thing I saw coming. Seriously.. why buy the tweener Sonic when U could buy the actual smaller and cheaper Spark or the Sonic's taller self Trax? I called this hard.. and said it on GMI and MTForum that it made no sense from a marketing point of view to not simply call the TRAX the SONIC TRX (trim) and reap the reward of sales being a marketer.  The Sonic is a cool as lil whip.. but I'm sure GM is making more off the Spark (and Trax) because it is being built by non-UAW labor while the Sonic is being built here. 

Buick.. I could see after the NG Regal (if it still comes) runs its course, the Buick line-up being one LaX, a global Hatchback, and at least two more CUVs to go along with the Encore, Envision, and Enclave. Why???

Quote

Cars accounted for 38.3 percent of GM's U.S. sales in 2013 but just 25.3 percent in the first two months of this year. 

Chevy.. The nixing of the Impala or merging it into a RWD based Omega (or AlphaL [current CTS]), death of Sonic or merging of it with Spark... I kinda see these two like I saw the insanity back in the day of having the Beretta and Corsica in the same line-up. I can see a fleshing out of the EV Bolt and PHEV Volt into another sized variant. Expect to see one more CUV or SUV coming in between the Nox and Traverse.

Cadillac is , ironically, safe in GROWING its line-up.. the necessity of it in GM's portfolio is pure profit and legitimacy. Expect ATS to become CT3, CTS to become CT5, CT6 to get even more plush, CT8 to arrive, and possibly still a CT7.. all by 2020. CUVs? XT4 is already running around, XT5 doing great.. XT7 is supposed to be coming, and of course I can't see them touching the Escalade formula

GMC. I could see a rethink on  the BIG Acadia.. maybe a new name or Acadia XL.. I can still envision a revisit to the H3. 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

This is good news, cut profit losing departments, scale down and consolidate the cars. Improve the CUV and SUV / Trucks are fine for GM. Build and grow a Wrangler competitor and bring back a few hot SUV/CUV's like the Trailblazer SS, Syclone and Typhoon.

[smk4565]

75 % of sales being truck and utility is a telling number, and that could grow too.  If only 20% of their sales are passenger car by 2020, then a lot of passenger car lines are going to get dumped.  Sonic, Impala, Regal, ATS would be easy cuts.   Or merge Spark and Sonic into one vehicle some how.  Even Lacrosse is in a rapidly shrinking segment, the next Gen Lacrosse maybe goes down in size to become their version of the Malibu if Buick is to have only 1 car, it probably has to be more middle sized. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

75 % of sales being truck and utility is a telling number, and that could grow too.  If only 20% of their sales are passenger car by 2020, then a lot of passenger car lines are going to get dumped.  Sonic, Impala, Regal, ATS would be easy cuts.   Or merge Spark and Sonic into one vehicle some how.  Even Lacrosse is in a rapidly shrinking segment, the next Gen Lacrosse maybe goes down in size to become their version of the Malibu if Buick is to have only 1 car, it probably has to be more middle sized. 

Thanks for pretty much repeating my every word/

[daves87rs]

Not surprised, As rumors have been floating around for a while..

 

Goodbye Impy, Sonic.

Also expecting some factory closings as well........

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

11 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Not surprised, As rumors have been floating around for a while..

 

Goodbye Impy, Sonic.

Also expecting some factory closings as well........

 

I just don't see the Impala going away again.. It would be foolish to concede the large car crown to Taurus or Avalon. Especially when it is just so damn great of a car. Again.. I see platform sharing with the CT6 or CTS being the absolute best way to further economies of scale within the company. Frankly I would have already had the rumors swirling about a RWD Impala as the SS was being killed. It really makes no financial sense to have one vehicle sitting on a doable platform like Omega. U already have under utilization of one platform over at team Corvette. The Omega based Impala with a 2.0L, 3.6L and TT 3.6L (420HP) or LT1 SS and.. an LT4 650HP SSR would be the stuff of dreams. It would effectively wear a Hellcat's ass out.

[ocnblu]

I hope CAFE standards are relaxed soon.  I would love to see Americans be able to purchase a Bolt and an Impala SS with LT4 engine out of the same showroom... along with a diesel Colorado and a 6.2L Silverado shortbed regular cab sport truck.

[G. David Felt]

I question how relaxed they would be, I actually expect them to stay the same but have the time to meet the higher numbers pushed out.

NY is doing free 220V home charger, no sales tax and $2K rebate for buying an EV. The push is on as I expect more states to push to get people out of ICE and into EV.

[ccap41]

I honestly don't think they should be relaxed as much as push the dates back. I think the goals and standards should be kept high to push a high standard but I also think companies need the time and market to change enough to even have a chance. If nobody wants to buy an EV because they're too scared of change then it's awfully difficult to push a company to make something people are too scared to buy.

15 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I question how relaxed they would be, I actually expect them to stay the same but have the time to meet the higher numbers pushed out.

NY is doing free 220V home charger, no sales tax and $2K rebate for buying an EV. The push is on as I expect more states to push to get people out of ICE and into EV.

Completely agree. I should have just read your post before typing, lol.

[G. David Felt]

The following states have no sales tax:

Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon

The following states have sales tax but you do not pay when you buy an EV.

Washington, California, New York, Florida, Arizona, Oklahoma, New Jersey, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia

Amazing how many states allow you to buy an EV and not pay sales tax plus have plenty of other incentives. 

Full list of incentives here:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/state-electric-vehicle-incentives-state-chart.aspx

[daves87rs]

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I just don't see the Impala going away again.. It would be foolish to concede the large car crown to Taurus or Avalon. Especially when it is just so damn great of a car. Again.. I see platform sharing with the CT6 or CTS being the absolute best way to further economies of scale within the company. Frankly I would have already had the rumors swirling about a RWD Impala as the SS was being killed. It really makes no financial sense to have one vehicle sitting on a doable platform like Omega. U already have under utilization of one platform over at team Corvette. The Omega based Impala with a 2.0L, 3.6L and TT 3.6L (420HP) or LT1 SS and.. an LT4 650HP SSR would be the stuff of dreams. It would effectively wear a Hellcat's ass out.

Big cars are dead my friend. It's called saving money at this point....the other two mentioned are on their out as well, most likely replaced by CUVs. I agree, I like the Impy a lot, and would love to see an SS version...would be nice if they could treat us to the old holden parts bin...... But-there are no plans for the Impala past 2019.....same as the Sonic....

I would also think that one of those two caddies are gone as well.....

[balthazar]

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

NY is doing free 220V home charger, no sales tax and $2K rebate for buying an EV. 

All that cash coming out of the state transportation fund?
That's like $4K/car.

[ocnblu]

So New Yorkers are forced to pay for a numbnuts agenda to get people into vehicles they clearly do not want.  Counterproductive.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

Big cars are dead my friend. It's called saving money at this point....the other two mentioned are on their out as well, most likely replaced by CUVs. I agree, I like the Impy a lot, and would love to see an SS version...would be nice if they could treat us to the old holden parts bin...... But-there are no plans for the Impala past 2019.....same as the Sonic....

I would also think that one of those two caddies are gone as well.....

Hold up.. U are saying U thing either the CTS or CT6 is dead NG??? Doubt it seriously. The CTS certainly is in for a name change but Cadillavc knows that a 5series competitor is a necessity... The CT8 will remain while I could see the XTS dying. The Impala.. I'm not sure, but optimistic that GM doesn't pull a 1996 all over again.. because whether they are efficient as or not, CUVs are not perceived as such, thus GM would be foolish to put all those eggs in a brittle basket. Its literally the reason why we have the Avalon today.. an answer to the question that GM thought it had answered when it killed the Fleetwood, Roadmaster, Impala/Caprice, and Olds Cruiser

[hyperv6]

The future is going to be all about being efficient and cost effective. 

The keys will be to do more with less and make it so you can make changes even faster.

I fear companies like PSA and VW will at some point collapse under their own weight. 

Note we already saw GM, Chrysler and even Ford do this already. A large economic down turn will kill the largest company.

while it is cool to have a zillion models and address every segment this path is no longer sustainable. Development cast are too high as are operating cost. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by hyperv6

[ocnblu]

Just taking the Sonic, for example.  Instead of a comprehensive redesign like the Spark and Cruze enjoy, the Sonic was given a half-hearted facelift that has been panned by fans of the car (although I think it's an improvement).  You know GM is aware of the unique design features that made the car a hit, so they erased those features... and they're building the Bolt in the same plant... coincidence?  It could be argued they're purposely sabotaging the Sonic in order to make room for the Bolt.

With the Impala... it got a knock-out beautiful design as a send-off, so people would remember it fondly... you know GM is tuned into future trends many years in advance... the migration to CUV's was expected... maybe not to the extent and the speed at which people turned, but they knew it was coming.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ocnblu

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Big cars are dead my friend. It's called saving money at this point....the other two mentioned are on their out as well, most likely replaced by CUVs. I agree, I like the Impy a lot, and would love to see an SS version...would be nice if they could treat us to the old holden parts bin...... But-there are no plans for the Impala past 2019.....same as the Sonic....

I would also think that one of those two caddies are gone as well.....

 

11 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Hold up.. U are saying U thing either the CTS or CT6 is dead NG??? Doubt it seriously. The CTS certainly is in for a name change but Cadillavc knows that a 5series competitor is a necessity... The CT8 will remain while I could see the XTS dying. The Impala.. I'm not sure, but optimistic that GM doesn't pull a 1996 all over again.. because whether they are efficient as or not, CUVs are not perceived as such, thus GM would be foolish to put all those eggs in a brittle basket. Its literally the reason why we have the Avalon today.. an answer to the question that GM thought it had answered when it killed the Fleetwood, Roadmaster, Impala/Caprice, and Olds Cruiser

If Cadillac was to kill off a big car, I would say the XTS would go as they bring in more CUVs. ATS & CTS will stay and become a CT#, CT6 is here to stay also.

9 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

The future is going to be all about being efficient and cost effective. 

The keys will be to do more with less and make it so you can make changes even faster.

I fear companies like PSA and VW will at some point collapse under their own weight. 

Note we already saw GM, Chrysler and even Ford do this already. A large economic down turn will kill the largest company.

while it is cool to have a zillion models and address every segment this path is no longer sustainable. Development cast are too high as are operating cost. 

 You right CAST cost way too much money!

• Thanks for the laugh as I really needed it this morning for HUMP Day!  

[FordCosworth]

Why would Cadillac cancel the XTS, their top selling Sedan? 

That makes as much sense as someone driving an XA10 

[hyperv6]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

If Cadillac was to kill off a big car, I would say the XTS would go as they bring in more CUVs. ATS & CTS will stay and become a CT#, CT6 is here to stay also.

 You right CAST cost way too much money!

• Thanks for the laugh as I really needed it this morning for HUMP Day!  

Thanks my pad auto incorrect.

53 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

Why would Cadillac cancel the XTS, their top selling Sedan? 

That makes as much sense as someone driving an XA10 

Because that does not represent the kind of product Cadillac wants or needs to improve their image.

Also you have the Lacrosse sitting there ready to take that segment as it is already in that price and segment.

Just because it is selling does not mean it is really repairing the image of Cadillac.

While it may appear counter productive to do in the short term it will fix the long term problem of perceived image and also help funnel customers to Buick for this kind of car.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, FordCosworth said:

Why would Cadillac cancel the XTS, their top selling Sedan? 

That makes as much sense as someone driving an XA10 

Because in the end scenario the XTS's sales could be sent over to the CT6. People aren't buying the XTS over the CT6 because its a better car.. nor is it really a "softer" cushier ride. Anyone who has been in a CT6 will attest to it being the right up there with any other as far as ride.. with handling to boot

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

Why would Cadillac cancel the XTS, their top selling Sedan? 

That makes as much sense as someone driving an XA10 

Simple, the XTS does not meet the future long term plans of Cadillac and their product line. Many other products can cover the XTS sales plus the CT# product line will take over for this any way. 

ATS, CTS, XTS are all dead in the near term replaced by the much better planned CT# product line which will have a much more uniform marketing plan.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS and Impala being on the chopping block is fairly obvious. If the XTS goes, so does the Impala... and probably Lacrosse next time around.  Think about it, the Epsilon chassis can't have that much life left to it. It's solid, but exceptionally heavy for the class even after the latest round of weight cutting, and too narrow for the cars they are trying to use it on.  This is my own conjecture but, I'd expect one last refresh for the Impala and XTS, while the Lacrosse is already on it's last iteration on this platform before all three head off to the great used car lot in the sky.   After that, who knows?  Maybe greater use of the next generation of Alpha or Omega?

[Drew Dowdell]

The main problem I see with this plan is that it means that GM might be moving away from models that only sell in one market (like the US) in favor of models that sell globally.  While that might work for something like a Cruze or Encore, some models are very market specific... like Suburban and Tahoe.  The fascination with high volumes at the expense of variety greatly hurts consumer choice.

Yes... I'm still stewing about the cancelation of the Avalanche.... it still makes no sense.

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The main problem I see with this plan is that it means that GM might be moving away from models that only sell in one market (like the US) in favor of models that sell globally.  While that might work for something like a Cruze or Encore, some models are very market specific... like Suburban and Tahoe.  The fascination with high volumes at the expense of variety greatly hurts consumer choice.

Yes... I'm still stewing about the cancelation of the Avalanche.... it still makes no sense.

 

None at all.. except for some reason I think that the Avalanche had a HUMMER-ISH perception about it. Makes no sense I kno.. but some people saw it and instantly thought DINOSAUR and not in terms of age.. but heft. Ironically it is no smaller than the Suburban it was built off. Sales, along with the EXT were phenomenal in fact.. as was Hummer overall. GM could have spent less simply marketing them as efficient as the competition or even its own platform mates, but it chopped them instead. AGAIN.. who couldn't see a positive reception for a H3 and H3T with a Diesel in it getting 28MPG? How about a Duramax powered Avy or EXT?

[Drew Dowdell]

The key thing about the avalanche was it's versatility. It is a full 2ft shorter than any crew-cab pickup with an 8ft bed. That means it can fit in places those bigger trucks can't, but still has all the utility of them. The only thing it couldn't be was a crew-cab with an 8ft bed both at the same time. But how often is that really needed if you're not a contractor?

No, GM done messed up when they cancelled that truck. They still have crazy good resale and they haven't been in production for 4 years now.

[G. David Felt]

Agree the Avalanche and EXT should be brought back!

[hyperv6]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The XTS and Impala being on the chopping block is fairly obvious. If the XTS goes, so does the Impala... and probably Lacrosse next time around.  Think about it, the Epsilon chassis can't have that much life left to it. It's solid, but exceptionally heavy for the class even after the latest round of weight cutting, and too narrow for the cars they are trying to use it on.  This is my own conjecture but, I'd expect one last refresh for the Impala and XTS, while the Lacrosse is already on it's last iteration on this platform before all three head off to the great used car lot in the sky.   After that, who knows?  Maybe greater use of the next generation of Alpha or Omega?

I don't see the Impala going away but for sure the Epsilon. 
 

I just have a gut feeling the Impala and SS will merge on a Alpha based sedan platform using many Camaro parts under the body. This way they could sell lower volumes but also help the Camaro and Cadillac Alpha cars spread out the cost. 

GM also needs a new NASCAR Sedan. 

This platform could underpin a new Buick Lacrosse with RWD and AWD to replace the XTS. Just think back to the Buick Show car sedan that we saw and think of it as a replacement for the XTS in this segment. 

With consolidation of model that also means platforms. The Alpha can and will be used more in the future with the 2nd gen coming. 

Will this Chevy and Buick happen. I can not say for sure but there is enough there to present a business case and with today's shrinking car market merging it with the Alpha would make benefit GM and the Alpha program. 

 

This also fits the global narrative with models of both Buick and Chevy being sold globally in small numbers in each market but many numbers collectively. 

The consolidation of the number of models does hurt the consumer choice but look around most MFG offer even less models and even less choices in options as they ship them overseas in three levels and 6 colors. Order one you have to be kidding is all you will hear. 

The whole future is about efficiency in running the business. Controlling cost and getting the most out of every investment. 

Case in point. Why do some really cool models never make it to production even if they would make money? Because there are other maybe more mundane models that can sell three times as many and return three times the investment. 

Folks running a car company is only so much passion. Today it is the heartless mind set of maximizing profits that keep them alive. Sad but true, 

Making money in the Auto industry is tough and only going to get tougher. 

Hell I am looking at buying a mid size truck and the sticker is over $40K. The cost of making cars will not get cheaper and our incomes are not going to keep pace. The automakers are looking at this and trying to find ways to buy time to get to where people will be able to afford cars in the future. Controlling cost is only one part of it but it is a big part. Getting stock prices up to where they need to be with higher profits is another. 

We can piss and moan that they did not build this really cool coupe or sports car but when you look at how much it would make vs. another program they have to do the responsible thing and make the most of the investment. It is not that they don't want to do it but in this age it is hard to do anything but. 

This again is big picture stuff. 
 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

FYI has anyone noticed what I have found. 

Hummer may be making a comeback at Chevy. 

Why do I say this. Well I have been working to buy a ZR2 Extended Cab Truck. {That is an ordeal in its self right now with poor GM marketing of models and colors not yet available even if they are shown in the brochure} 

The Z had ex Hummer engineers  involved to create it. They used a H3 Truck as the bench mark for abilities as the ZR2 will do a 60% grade and can travel the class 4 Moab trail as the Hummer could. 

I suspect that GM may do the same with the full size and even a SUV. This may be their way to create a real Jeep competitor without the expense of special platforms and other high cost things. It will be added income and if they need to change things it is easy to change a model vs. a whole division. 

As got GMC they are not getting a ZR2 of their own per the lead of the Colorado platform. She was asked if GM would consider a new Blaze since she watches over the Holden version. She would only say that would be interesting and smiled. Up to that point she was pure yes and no. That is what I call GM talk as I know many people in GM and to get a hint you have to listen how they answer things or say things. When there is a possible thing they remain silent and often with a smile. If it is a now they just say no. 

So while we may have less models we may see more variation of these models to off set the lack of diversity in fewer products. 

The ZR has caused me grief as I went to order it this week First off the Red Hot one that has been at the shows and in the brochure is not available. Second I went to order the Extended cab as I want the larger bed. Well you can't order one. 

From what I can learn on my own since the dealers have so little clue is that all the trucks from now till June are 2017 models and will only be Crew Cabs. Makes sense as it will be the most popular. They are going to build around one per dealer. I have confirmed the production of the 2018 will be early July as the norm. I suspect the Extended Cab will go on line then but I can not get this confirmed. I will have to check the order guide when it comes out in May as so little info is out.

As for ordering I had one dealer salesman lie to me he ordered my truck. I asked for a build workbench sheet and he never returned my e mail.  I had another get mad as I said I wanted to make a deal on one and he told me it was MSRP only and I said Ok I will remember that. He then went into a tirade about being permitted to make $1300 on the deal. Well if that is all he will make then he needs to find another dealer to work for as invoice is more than that not counting Hold back and other bonuses. 

I think some of these sales people think this is a limited edition but it is just going to be a regular production vehicle that GM has said next year they will build as many as the public wants like a Z71. 

So for now I wait to see when they get the Extend Cab out. Or if I get tired of waiting I will opt for a loaded Canyon SLT Extended cab. 

As for the Red Hot color no one can say if it will be there next year? 

You would think the trucks shown in the brochure would be the ones they would sell. Hell the Extended Cab is on the cover but yet you can not buy it. 

[daves87rs]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:07 PM, Cmicasa the Great said:

Hold up.. U are saying U thing either the CTS or CT6 is dead NG??? Doubt it seriously. The CTS certainly is in for a name change but Cadillavc knows that a 5series competitor is a necessity... The CT8 will remain while I could see the XTS dying. The Impala.. I'm not sure, but optimistic that GM doesn't pull a 1996 all over again.. because whether they are efficient as or not, CUVs are not perceived as such, thus GM would be foolish to put all those eggs in a brittle basket. Its literally the reason why we have the Avalon today.. an answer to the question that GM thought it had answered when it killed the Fleetwood, Roadmaster, Impala/Caprice, and Olds Cruiser

Simply put- yes.

Hyper is also right on many accounts as well.

To be honest, they CTS doesn't even excite me anymore....it's gotten fat and lame. If they want to compete with BMW, the car better damn near knock your socks off.....

[balthazar]

Well the 5-series sure ain't gettin' any toes naked.

[ocnblu]

lol

[G. David Felt]

9 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Simply put- yes.

Hyper is also right on many accounts as well.

To be honest, they CTS doesn't even excite me anymore....it's gotten fat and lame. If they want to compete with BMW, the car better damn near knock your socks off.....

CTS is far more exciting than anything Audi, BMW or MB are putting out and much lighter in comparison to the other RWD. Weight based on current 2017 models from their web site, except MB that only showed 2016 model weight TBD for 2017 model.

CTS RWD - 3652

Audi A5 Sportback FWD - 3450

BMW 530i RWD - 3746

MB E350 RWD - 3825

[hyperv6]

The problem is the ATS and CTS did not age well.

Also the styling is so close on all the Cadillac cars they really lack a true personality of their own. I am all for a family face but you have to still make them different enough to draw people in.

The CTS V sport also got lost in the shuffle too.

I hope JDN can make these cars all look like a Cadillac but give each its own personality.

I have always hated BMW for not really doing much in styling. At least Benz will take a swing at it now and then.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

I have always hated BMW for not really doing much in styling. At least Benz will take a swing at it every 25 years

Fixed that for you.

[ccap41]

5 hours ago, dfelt said:

CTS is far more exciting than anything Audi, BMW or MB are putting out and much lighter in comparison to the other RWD. Weight based on current 2017 models from their web site, except MB that only showed 2016 model weight TBD for 2017 model.

CTS RWD - 3652

Audi A5 Sportback FWD - 3450

BMW 530i RWD - 3746

MB E350 RWD - 3825

So what?

It's what they do with those savings that makes the savings worth it or not.

I've never understood the infatuation with just saying X is lighter than Y. There are 12,000 variables mixed in there that will make the car good or bad. Is the CTS the fastest, quickest, stops the shortest, handles the most lateral g's, quietest, smoothest, most economical? I it doesn't to all of those the best then there's no point in just saying one car is lighter than the other..because it comes across as waste of savings.

[daves87rs]

14 hours ago, dfelt said:

CTS is far more exciting than anything Audi, BMW or MB are putting out and much lighter in comparison to the other RWD. Weight based on current 2017 models from their web site, except MB that only showed 2016 model weight TBD for 2017 model.

CTS RWD - 3652

Audi A5 Sportback FWD - 3450

BMW 530i RWD - 3746

MB E350 RWD - 3825

Well, a couple of them have a bit more go to them...but I would agree with you there.

But the others ooze status, the caddy doesn't anymore....

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Well, a couple of them have a bit more go to them...but I would agree with you there.

But the others ooze status, the caddy doesn't anymore....

When you see BMW, Audi and MB everywhere especially a ton of the 3 class and C class and A3 and cheaper models compared to my Escalade. I stay I have plenty of status. I take my Escalade ESV Platinum edition any day over those other companies.

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 3/15/2017 at 11:49 PM, daves87rs said:

Simply put- yes.

Hyper is also right on many accounts as well.

To be honest, they CTS doesn't even excite me anymore....it's gotten fat and lame. If they want to compete with BMW, the car better damn near knock your socks off.....

To be honest your comment is your opinion as stated as such. The CTS not exciting U is irrelevant as to whether it is a world beater in reality. As pointed out.. the CTS is still considered to be quite lite in weight versus the competition. So where is that fat? Are U comparing it to the new lesson learned in its new sister platform OMEGA? Truly.. is it in your head that for some reason when the next gen CTS(CT5) arrives Cadillac will have neglected to use those lessons in lightening the load? A CT6 currently weighs less than the CTS.. why wouldn't the next gen CTS be lighter since it is smaller??? Of course I'm talking about future iterations that are a year away.. while U are talking as if the CTS is for some reason no longer a competitive ride within its class.

Its still considered the best handling in the class.. best braking by all accounts... one of the quickest around a road course... and looks??? While certainly subjective I continue to get praise as well as admiration for picking " such a beautiful car..." versus the ho-hum of the 5series, M5 or otherwise.. or blandness of the Jellybean that is the A6.. or the mainstream mimic GS.. a car that I have to focus on hard with my Lasik corrected eyes just to discern whether it be an Accord.. Mazda6.. "what the fuck is that... " My words.. just the other day. In fact the XF is the only car in the class that comes off as unique.. and it is about a decade old at this point..despite the supposed change... having competed with the SECOND GEN CTS. I kno.. because I compared the XFR before I bought my first '09 CTSV Sedan Pearl. 

Prestige. I am here to tell U that the trails of slobber that glisten from Valet stand to my door when I pull up in my CTS are quite evident.. the friends who might follow in their run of the mill.. dime a dozen German Midsize seem to get no more props than someone pulling up in a damn Camry. 

Sorry.. but in truth.. as weird as it may sound.. A CTS is now damn near an exotic compared to the 5series BMW. If for no other reason than over-saturation of the market.. (which is good for BMW's sales but bad for resale and prestige) and Cadillac's lack of proper marketing.. Altho I will admit that the current CTS-V commercial that is being run is pretty fantastic

 

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

9 hours ago, dfelt said:

When you see BMW, Audi and MB everywhere especially a ton of the 3 class and C class and A3 and cheaper models compared to my Escalade. I stay I have plenty of status. I take my Escalade ESV Platinum edition any day over those other companies.

And U should.. cause when people see your 'Slade coming down they kno U arrived and are in command. When they see a fuckin GLS come down they road they think.. "oh this bitch gave her punk ass husband a helluva blow-job."

[smk4565]

ATS and CTS sales are both hurting though, I don't think either have any cache in the market place.  Rumor is Lexus is cancelling the GS all together, sedans are becoming a tough market if you aren't on your A game.  And cars like the CTS and GS only sell in a few countries, they don't have huge global volume, and all these car makers look at global numbers.  I'd imagine Acura RLX will be dead within a year, and they will never have more than 2 sedans in the future.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

ATS and CTS sales are both hurting though, I don't think either have any cache in the market place.  Rumor is Lexus is cancelling the GS all together, sedans are becoming a tough market if you aren't on your A game.  And cars like the CTS and GS only sell in a few countries, they don't have huge global volume, and all these car makers look at global numbers.  I'd imagine Acura RLX will be dead within a year, and they will never have more than 2 sedans in the future.

U equate sales.. sales to cachet.. in the luxury market??? Lunacy.. for so many reasons. Fact is that every sale of the CTS and ATS are still profitable.. very profitable in fact.. they help very much with that highest or damn near highest ATP in the segment. Mercedes sells so many BS cheap people cars that its ATP reflects that they are more.. at this point.. just another mainstream maker.. maaaaaybe on par with Nissan/Infiniti. Oh.. and FUCK Mercedes.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U equate sales.. sales to cachet.. in the luxury market??? Lunacy.. for so many reasons. Fact is that every sale of the CTS and ATS are still profitable.. very profitable in fact.. they help very much with that highest or damn near highest ATP in the segment. Mercedes sells so many BS cheap people cars that its ATP reflects that they are more.. at this point.. just another mainstream maker.. maaaaaybe on par with Nissan/Infiniti. Oh.. and f@#k Mercedes.

Cadillac has a high ATP because Escalade is like 20-25% of their sales volume.  Wait until XT4 goes on sales and that ATP drops into the $40k range.

I don't equate cache to sales, the Porsche 911 has plenty of cache and not a lot of volume.  I'd even say the Jaguar XF has more cache than a CTS and no one buys Jaguar XFs.

And maybe Mercedes is on par with Nissan or Infiniti, yet Cadillac can't beat them on  their home turf.  Billions spent on ATS and CTS only to price them $5-10k less than the rival Mercedes and get outsold by wide margin.

[Drew Dowdell]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac has a high ATP because Escalade is like 20-25% of their sales volume.  Wait until XT4 goes on sales and that ATP drops into the $40k range.

I don't equate cache to sales, the Porsche 911 has plenty of cache and not a lot of volume.  I'd even say the Jaguar XF has more cache than a CTS and no one buys Jaguar XFs.

And maybe Mercedes is on par with Nissan or Infiniti, yet Cadillac can't beat them on  their home turf.  Billions spent on ATS and CTS only to price them $5-10k less than the rival Mercedes and get outsold by wide margin.

Incorrect. Cadillac has high ATP because higher trim models are being sold. 

[smk4565]

25 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Incorrect. Cadillac has high ATP because higher trim models are being sold. 

I'd love to see ATP's of ATS and CTS compared to the German rivals.  CT6 is hard to compare to rivals because it isn't priced like any of them. 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't equate cache to sales...

...$5-10k less than the rival Mercedes and get outsold by wide margin.

Oh, you most definitely do.

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac has a high ATP because Escalade is like 20-25% of their sales volume.  Wait until XT4 goes on sales and that ATP drops into the $40k range.

I don't equate cache to sales, the Porsche 911 has plenty of cache and not a lot of volume.  I'd even say the Jaguar XF has more cache than a CTS and no one buys Jaguar XFs.

And maybe Mercedes is on par with Nissan or Infiniti, yet Cadillac can't beat them on  their home turf.  Billions spent on ATS and CTS only to price them $5-10k less than the rival Mercedes and get outsold by wide margin.

BS... if for no other reason than U seem to have no realistic grasp on MATH. Escalade and ESV combined sales thus far, this year and all of last.. is  21-22% of all of Cadillac sales. In fact.. a vast majority of Cadillac sales seem to be the SRX/XT5, ATS and XTS... which means that.. as I see Drew points out... Cadillac is making more per vehicle by selling higher trims.. instead of low end shit that just gets a sale on the board. Mercedes on the other hand seems to sell more LOW END BS than high end stuff . 

Porsche's 911 has cache because its a sports car legend. Ironically I bet good money that the Vette is almost as high on the cache list despite it having always been historically less expensive. The XF vs the CTS.. I'm sorry.. I don't think so. The XF has about as much cachet as the name Jag.. same for the CTS as a Cadillac. Fortunately.. despite all of Cadillac's hiccups over the last 25 years to hurt it.. enough people still remember that it was for 75 years prior.. the Standard. 

Yeah Mercedes beats Caddy on its home turf.. but U state the obvious reason why.. they are an equivalent to Nissan/Infiniti.. a mainstream company. If Cadillac included from Chevy, in order for them to have cars on par with Mercedes' non S-Class, E-class, C-Class, GLS, CLS, and G-Wagon.. then yeah.. I think we would see what's what. Fuck Mercedes. 

[smk4565]

 Last year Daimler had a $58,600 ATP including Smart cars.  Even with Smart and CLA's dragging them down they still beat Cadillac, BMW, Lexus and Audi.  The E-class is priced like a CT6 and actually goes higher in price than the CT6, and outsells CTS, XTS and CT6 combined, so it isn't like Mercedes is selling some cheap car to get sales.   

Speaking of Cadillac though, I was wondering the other day why they don't combine up a pair of 3.0TT V6s from the CT6 to make a 6 liter TT V12 for the Escalade?   Seems like a no brainer.

[G. David Felt]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Speaking of Cadillac though, I was wondering the other day why they don't combine up a pair of 3.0TT V6s from the CT6 to make a 6 liter TT V12 for the Escalade?   Seems like a no brainer.

First off the TT V6 was not planned to be doubled to a V12 and the days of a V12 are coming to a close. The investment makes no business sense as even BMW and MB is having to find alternative places to sell their bigger motors as the R&D dollars are no longer recoverable in such a small numbers of auto's sold.

The future is smaller Turbo / Supercharged ICE engines, Hybrids and EV's. You know this as you have even pointed out the future of your beloved MB hybrid and EV programs.