Chevrolet News:Rumorpile: Dont Fret. A New Camaro Z/28 is Coming

[William Maley]

The Camaro Z/28 will be returning for an encore act and it might be using the next-generation of Chevrolet's small-block V8.

Car and Driver reports that GM is working on the next-generation LT engines, codenamed LT6 and LT7. These new V8 engines will lose the pushrods and two-valve combustion chambers that have been a key part of the small-block V8. Instead, the new engines will feature dual overhead camshafts, four-valve combustion chambers, flat crankshaft, titanium connecting rods, and possibly dual injection (port and direct). For the Z/28, a 5.5L LT6 could produce 700 horsepower (that's without any sort of forced induction). 

Car and Driver speculates there could also be a twin-turbo LT7 that could be used in the next Corvette, high-performance Camaros, and Cadillacs.

The Camaro Z/28 could arrive next year as a 2019 model year vehicle.

Source: Car and Driver

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[G. David Felt]

Interesting, reading all the comments, all 44 of them, many do not believe the Pushrod will go away. I question the need for DOHC when we have history that proves pushrods can do the same HP with better Torque over DOHC overweight pigs that have high HP and pathetic Torque.

I question if this will really happen. As others in the story state in the comments section, a DOHC engine like this makes it top heavy and really changes the dynamics for center of gravity.

[smk4565]

I don't get why they keep pushing the Camaro farther and farther up market.  This is why you have the Corvette and Cadillac.  Cadillac should be building GM's best sports cars, not Chevy.  But I guess if they can get some fool to pay $100,000 for a Camaro, more power to them.

If they continue this plan though, and want to push Corvette up market, then the Corvette might as well start around $89,000 for the base model, $139,000 for Z06 and $200,000 for ZR-1.

[balthazar]

Cadillac has nothing to do with the Camaro.

[regfootball]

this is just for the Z28.  If you can put this engine in a Caddy and sell 5,000 of them.  Why not put it in a Z28 too, sell 5,000 of those, and you just cut development cost per unit in half.

Leave the pushrods for the SS.  The ZL1 has it too.  This would really make the Z28 unique among Camaros.

Chevy probably makes more profit on one ZL1 or Z28 than they do on 5 other camaros or 20 Cruzes.

 

Now there's your foundation and justification for a new v8 in Cadillacs as well.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I don't get why they keep pushing the Camaro farther and farther up market.  This is why you have the Corvette and Cadillac.  Cadillac should be building GM's best sports cars, not Chevy.  But I guess if they can get some fool to pay $100,000 for a Camaro, more power to them.

If they continue this plan though, and want to push Corvette up market, then the Corvette might as well start around $89,000 for the base model, $139,000 for Z06 and $200,000 for ZR-1.

Are these the same fools that pay a few hundred grand for a forty year old G-Wagon or a different set of fools?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac has nothing to do with the Camaro.

Cadillac has nothing to do with sports cars period.

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Are these the same fools that pay a few hundred grand for a forty year old G-Wagon or a different set of fools?

The G-wagen starts at $120,000 though.  The Camaro starts at $25,000 and they want to run it up to $100,000.  That is a big gap, that is like selling a $100,000 Impala.  The G-wagen does have amazing off road ability, but I suspect 90% of the buyers aren't going off road, in which case the GLE is a better vehicle overall.   However an all new G-wagen comes out next year, so it will be on a zero year old chassis with a new 4.0 V8, and the new 9-speed automatic, so then maybe it is a different story.

[balthazar]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac has nothing to do with sports cars period.

I don't get why they keep pushing the Camaro farther and farther up market.  This is why you have the Corvette and Cadillac.  Cadillac should be building GM's best sports cars, not Chevy.

Like you said: Cadillac has nothing to do with sports cars. Which is why Cadillac is not building sports cars.

See, you answered your own question.

As for Camaro pricing, see your first quote above. It doesn't matter to Cadillac what Chevrolet prices the Camaro at.

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

 

Like you said: Cadillac has nothing to do with sports cars. Which is why Cadillac is not building sports cars.

See, you answered your own question.

As for Camaro pricing, see your first quote above. It doesn't matter to Cadillac what Chevrolet prices the Camaro at.

Cadillac should build sports cars, they are only half a luxury brand without them.  If they are top tier where is the stuff to compete with Porsche, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Bentley, the top half of Mercedes line up, etc.  Even dopey Lexus did the LF-A and now has the $100,000 LC which is slower than an S-class coupe by the way, and sized like an E-class coupe.

[balthazar]

Is Rolls royce a "half a luxury brand"? Is Ferrari or Lamborghini "half a sports car brand" for not having luxury models?
Sports cars can be fun- they sell a lot of posters for teenager's bedroom walls, but one doesn't mean the other 'has' to be there also. And an actual 'luxury sports car' is relative new in the grand timeline of things.

Personally I would MUCH prefer a 'production concept' Cadillac than a 'sports car' people hardly buy any of.

[aurora97]

A few things;

1.  Until the ATS is no longer on the Alpha platform, then Cadillac will be related to the Camaro.

2.  Any new V8 would be shared by as many GM brands to maximize its R&D and production costs to get a return on investment.

3.  Until the V8 is officially no longer allowed to exist by the Feds, there will always be the arms race with Ford and Dodge to out-muscle the latest muscle car.  The Z/28 would compete with the Mustang GT500 and the Demon Hellcat.  Also, the "collector car" market with Barrett-Jackson, Mecum, etc. has created a secondary market for these "high-end" muscle cars to go for higher dollar at auction as "an investment" for those who wish to rub the car with a diaper and not actually drive it.

[balthazar]

26 minutes ago, aurora97 said:

1.  Until the ATS is no longer on the Alpha platform, then Cadillac will be related to the Camaro.

There's a relation on an engineering level. But Camaro on Alpha & ATS on Alpha is still immaterial to what Chevrolet & Cadillac are doing with each model and overall.

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't get why they keep pushing the Camaro farther and farther up market.  This is why you have the Corvette and Cadillac.  Cadillac should be building GM's best sports cars, not Chevy.  But I guess if they can get some fool to pay $100,000 for a Camaro, more power to them.

If they continue this plan though, and want to push Corvette up market, then the Corvette might as well start around $89,000 for the base model, $139,000 for Z06 and $200,000 for ZR-1.

Are you afraid that Chevy just might actually make a real push into being a complete competition with your vaunted MB? After all Cadillac is focusing on pure Luxury only something MB used to do only in the US, but MB is no different than Chevy in Europe. 

As such, if MB can play in the 20K market, why not Chevy in the 100K market or higher? No reason not to make Chevy a truly Global brand that covers from Eco entry to luxury just like MB.

[G. David Felt]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

There's a relation on an engineering level. But Camaro on Alpha & ATS on Alpha is still immaterial to what Chevrolet & Cadillac are doing with each model and overall.

Plus MB does this across their product range on their modular platform from Cheap Eco box's to their luxury level, so why should GM not also maximize basic foundation investments in the platform.

They already are night and day different in style, interiors, etc.

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac has nothing to do with sports cars period.

The G-wagen starts at $120,000 though.  The Camaro starts at $25,000 and they want to run it up to $100,000.  That is a big gap, that is like selling a $100,000 Impala.  The G-wagen does have amazing off road ability, but I suspect 90% of the buyers aren't going off road, in which case the GLE is a better vehicle overall.   However an all new G-wagen comes out next year, so it will be on a zero year old chassis with a new 4.0 V8, and the new 9-speed automatic, so then maybe it is a different story.

My point is still valid. You want to talk about "fools buying a $100K Camaro" but think nothing of the fools who pay out the ass for a 40 year box truck just because it has a Benz emblem on the hood.

[ccap41]

Doesn't the C Class start in the 30's ad run over 100,000 and they've had Black Series and "S" models to the AMGs which add tens of thousands on top. The Black Series in 2012 MSRP'd for 125k.

Go on about the peasant model adding ridiculous shet to raise the price over 100k.

Personally, I dig the G Wagen because of its off-road capability is pretty insane for a factory vehicle. As long as you can deal with wind noise, it's great.

[FordCosworth]

GM going FPC???

Can't beat your cross town rival, join them.   

 

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

GM going FPC???

Can't beat your cross town rival, join them.   

 

Flat Plane Crank? Where'd you hear this...? Or are you trolling...?

[FordCosworth]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Flat Plane Crank? Where'd you hear this...? Or are you trolling...?

In the OP.

" the new engines will feature dual overhead camshafts, four-valve combustion chambers, flat crankshaft, titanium connecting rods, and possibly dual injection (port and direct) "

And somehow, without FI...

" 5.5L LT6 could produce 700 horsepower "

[ccap41]

9 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

In the OP.

" the new engines will feature dual overhead camshafts, four-valve combustion chambers, flat crankshaft, titanium connecting rods, and possibly dual injection (port and direct) "

And somehow, without FI...

" 5.5L LT6 could produce 700 horsepower "

Damn, I completely read over that after I read DOHC and 4v/cyl.

I'd credit you with a nice catch but it was more me just being an asshat w/ poor reading skills LOL

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Are you afraid that Chevy just might actually make a real push into being a complete competition with your vaunted MB? After all Cadillac is focusing on pure Luxury only something MB used to do only in the US, but MB is no different than Chevy in Europe. 

As such, if MB can play in the 20K market, why not Chevy in the 100K market or higher? No reason not to make Chevy a truly Global brand that covers from Eco entry to luxury just like MB.

Chevy shouldn't be in the $100k market, because Cadillac should be, and Cadillac has long struggled with anything over $70k that wasn't an Escalade.  We've seen the STS-V and XLR fail and they priced the CT6 low because of it.   And I have zero concern from Chevy competing with MB, Chevy has cheap plastic interiors for one, and 2: Mercedes's hyper car will have over 1,000 hp, weigh 2,200 lbs and have F1 car suspension and active aero, so not worried.  The LaFerrari and Bugatti aren't even going to compete with Mercedes.  

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Doesn't the C Class start in the 30's ad run over 100,000 and they've had Black Series and "S" models to the AMGs which add tens of thousands on top. The Black Series in 2012 MSRP'd for 125k.

Go on about the peasant model adding ridiculous shet to raise the price over 100k.

Personally, I dig the G Wagen because of its off-road capability is pretty insane for a factory vehicle. As long as you can deal with wind noise, it's great.

$100k for a C-class is nuts too.  I think the C63 S tops out around $94k now, which to me is about $10k too much, but if you skip carbon ceramic brakes that helps keep cost in check.   But at $100k you are at E63 money, or S550 money and an AMG GT or SL550 in the low 100s, so no reason to ever push a C-class above $90k when there are other better options in the same show room.

[surreal1272]

Flat plane crank engines existed long before Ford made it a catchphrase. It's still a bad ass engine on the GT350R but it is not the first.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flat-plane-silliness-how-crankshaft-press-release-duped-stephen-kim

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

$100k for a C-class is nuts too.  I think the C63 S tops out around $94k now, which to me is about $10k too much, but if you skip carbon ceramic brakes that helps keep cost in check.   But at $100k you are at E63 money, or S550 money and an AMG GT or SL550 in the low 100s, so no reason to ever push a C-class above $90k when there are other better options in the same show room.

I built one to over 101k checking all the boxes but none of those "MB logo center cap"-like crap. Real options.

Well, they've built 125k C Classes. WTF, man? And ya know what? They sold because they were great. This ZL1 would very likely spank that C AMG Black in every performance metric as well, for half the price.

[smk4565]

And I disagree with $100k plus C-classes because Mercedes has other cars to step up to.  Which is why I don't like $100k Camaros because you have Corvette in the same showroom and Cadillac in the portfolio. 

[ccap41]

Sometimes people just want a little niche vehicle in their lives. If they're done correctly and people find value in them, they're worth it. Just like the C AMG Black and the last Z/28(while they must have overproduced those some as last I knew you could find a few brand new/unsold ones yet).

[surreal1272]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And I disagree with $100k plus C-classes because Mercedes has other cars to step up to.  Which is why I don't like $100k Camaros because you have Corvette in the same showroom and Cadillac in the portfolio. 

Weak excuse as Cadillacs are not sold in the same showroom and offer plenty that Chevys do not. The Corvette is also on the way up as well making your argument even more null. 

[FordCosworth]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Sometimes people just want a little niche vehicle in their lives. If they're done correctly and people find value in them, they're worth it. Just like the C AMG Black and the last Z/28(while they must have overproduced those some as last I knew you could find a few brand new/unsold ones yet).

The Z/28 wasnt necessarily over produced...

The reality was it was overpriced...

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/deal-alert-2015-chevrolet-camaro-z28-sees-25000-slashed-from-msrp/

 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Flat plane crank engines existed long before Ford made it a catchphrase. It's still a bad ass engine on the GT350R but it is not the first.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flat-plane-silliness-how-crankshaft-press-release-duped-stephen-kim

The story is spot on, Ford as it stated has built an outstanding motor and yet there is so much more to it than just the Crank. So many other far more important parts that contribute to the performance than just the over hyped / marketed Crank.

[ccap41]

38 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

The Z/28 wasnt necessarily over produced...

The reality was it was overpriced...

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/deal-alert-2015-chevrolet-camaro-z28-sees-25000-slashed-from-msrp/

 

Same thing though.

If they produced 1000 less units the 100 that got marked down because they didn't sell never would have gotten marked down. (throwing out example numbers).

Supply vs Demand. They over supplied the market OR they overpriced their supply OR any combination in between those two.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

The story is spot on, Ford as it stated has built an outstanding motor and yet there is so much more to it than just the Crank. So many other far more important parts that contribute to the performance than just the over hyped / marketed Crank.

Very true. 

[balthazar]

Cadillac is not in Chevrolet's portfolio. 
You are approaching marketing from the boardroom/accounting angle. 

Do you have a professional interest in accounting?

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Weak excuse as Cadillacs are not sold in the same showroom and offer plenty that Chevys do not. The Corvette is also on the way up as well making your argument even more null. 

They don't have to be.  This is why VW doesn't make the Phaeton anymore after that flop and why VW doesn't make a $100k sports car, or why Audi doesn't make a $250,000 car.  VW has a price point, Audi has a price point, Bentley and Lambo have a price point.  Each carries out their mission.  

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They don't have to be.  This is why VW doesn't make the Phaeton anymore after that flop and why VW doesn't make a $100k sports car, or why Audi doesn't make a $250,000 car.  VW has a price point, Audi has a price point, Bentley and Lambo have a price point.  Each carries out their mission.  

Two totally different scenarios and you know it. You're just trying to come up with excuses to bash yet another GM product. 

 

And if if you want to talk price points, what the hell is up with Benz? They sell $200k+ cars on the same lot as $32k cars and sub $30k vans. See, your logic for everyone else gets turned on it's ear when you throw Benz into that mix. 

[smk4565]

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Two totally different scenarios and you know it. You're just trying to come up with excuses to bash yet another GM product. 

 

And if if you want to talk price points, what the hell is up with Benz? They sell $200k+ cars on the same lot as $32k cars and sub $30k vans. See, your logic for everyone else gets turned on it's ear when you throw Benz into that mix. 

Benz is one brand, so they sell all on one lot.  GM is not one brand, they have 4, more similar to the VW-Audi-Porsche-Bentley-Lambo set up with tiered brands.  Use Toyota-Lexus as an example, different dealership, Toyota doesn't have $100,000 cars, Lexus does that.

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Benz is one brand, so they sell all on one lot.  GM is not one brand, they have 4, more similar to the VW-Audi-Porsche-Bentley-Lambo set up with tiered brands.  Use Toyota-Lexus as an example, different dealership, Toyota doesn't have $100,000 cars, Lexus does that.

No. The Metris line was it's own lineup that only recently got the priviledge of being sold next to $100K S-Class cars. Oh and who owns Smart btw? Furthermore, VW and the Phaeton is a terrible example. It failed because it was essentially a VW A8 for an A8 price. It's doesn't take a genius to figure out why that wouldn't work. The Camaro and Vette do not suffer form that at all within the GM family. They have no counterparts in Cadillac so there is no overlap or confusion. This is why your initial comparison does not work nor apply here. GM is nothing like the VW lineup, nothing.

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

No. The Metris line was it's own lineup that only recently got the priviledge of being sold next to $100K S-Class cars. Furthermore, VW and the Phaeton is a terrible example. It failed because it was essentially a VW A8 for an A8 price. It's doesn't take a genius to figure out why that wouldn't work. The Camaro and Vette do not suffer form that at all within the GM family. They have no counterparts in Cadillac so there is no overlap or confusion. This is why your initial comparison does not work nor apply here. GM is nothing like the VW lineup, nothing.

Which is why Cadillac should have a sports car for $100k with Corvette performance and CT6 Platinum level (or better) interior.  GM's lineup isn't like VW's because Chevy isn't just the mainstream brand, it has become the performance brand of GM also.  And Buick and GMC overlap Cadillac a lot.  VW's brands are more spread out, they are actually more the model of how GM should do it.  GM is more like FCA with a truck brand and a lot of car brands that step on each other.

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

GM is nothing like the VW lineup, nothing.

I think he's saying that they SHOULD be more like the VW lineup though.

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think he's saying that they SHOULD be more like the VW lineup though.

Like I told him though, they are not nor do they need to be. Each company has it's own business model and right now, GMs is working just fine overall (not that there aren't some issues mind you, just to be clear here). VW is not the company I would aspire to given their problems as of late.

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which is why Cadillac should have a sports car for $100k with Corvette performance and CT6 Platinum level (or better) interior.  GM's lineup isn't like VW's because Chevy isn't just the mainstream brand, it has become the performance brand of GM also.  And Buick and GMC overlap Cadillac a lot.  VW's brands are more spread out, they are actually more the model of how GM should do it.  GM is more like FCA with a truck brand and a lot of car brands that step on each other.

VW is not more spread out. They have a ton of overlap with Audi accross the board, save for the most expensive Audis. You can't even count Porsche, Bugatti, and Lamborghini in this mix since they were established brands that VW merely funneled cash into to keep them solvent. Now that you mention it though, VW has overlap with Porsche too (Touareg and Cayenne) so that puts another dent in your spread out argument. Again, overall what GM is doing is working for them and they are looking at ways to expand their top tier cars, since they are pure profit machines so your overall argument just isn't carrying much weight here.

[Frisky Dingo]

Arguing aside, everyone should have pretty much seen this coming. Their performance car division is so successful right now, they're going to fettle and come up with every concoction they can.

As for pricing, one can only assume such a car is going to be 80K or more. Which I don't think is totally unreasonable. There's numerous examples of other six-figure cars based on 30K ones- M4 GTS, C63 AMG BS, Cadillac Escalade, etc. I'm not sure that necessarily takes away from those vehicles by default, especially in the case of performance cars.

That said, the Corvette obviously needs to go upmarket- which GM seems to be doing- and Cadillac could definitely use a halo supercar of their own. Only they and BMW seem to refuse to do so.