Cadillac News: Cadillac Says A Refreshed XTS Coming This Year, New Products Beginning In Second Half of 2018

[William Maley]

If there is one issue that is top of mind for various folks at Cadillac, it is the lack of crossovers. Their sedan-heavy lineup isn't doing them any favors in a marketplace crazy for crossovers and SUVs. The brand does have some breathing room thanks to increasing sales in China, but they know they need crossovers now.

“It’s left us with the obvious difficulty. The core part of our volume lineup is in the market that’s contracting while we are unable, as good as XT5 and Escalade are, we are unable to fully exploit the updraft that’s taking place in the other half of the market,” said Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen to The Detroit News.

The bad news is the first of a handful will not arrive till the second half of 2018 according to de Nysschen. The first is a model that will be smaller than the XT5, what we believe will be called the XT3. Some analysts believe the XT3 will be built at Fairfax Assembly Plant in Kansas City, Kansas. Then a full-size crossover slotted between the XT5 and Escalade will come next. We think this could be the sister model to the Chevrolet Traverse and Buick Enclave. Finally, de Nysschen hinted that an even smaller crossover could arrive after 2020.

That doesn't mean Cadillac isn't working on their sedan lineup either. The XTS is expected to get a refresh later this year. Cadillac will also be launching a sedan to compete with the likes of the Audi A3 and Mercedes-Benz CLA in 2019. A coupe and convertible will join the sedan around the same time. de Nysschen explained the entry-level luxury marketplace is growing and the company wants a piece of it.

Source: The Detroit News

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[G. David Felt]

I agree that they need a deeper CUV lineup, not sure about the car lineup. I honestly do not see a need for the convertible. Coupe yea, but convertible is such a small dying market that why waste the R&D dollars when there are far better areas to spend it in.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I agree that they need a deeper CUV lineup, not sure about the car lineup. I honestly do not see a need for the convertible. Coupe yea, but convertible is such a small dying market that why waste the R&D dollars when there are far better areas to spend it in.

Coupe and Convertible are definitely necessary. Its part of what is holding Cadillac back in terms of prestige. In fact.. I believe Cadillac should have a convertible in CT3, CT5, and CT6 (or CT8) no different than Benz. Quite frankly Cadillac's line-up, BARRING the cheap compliance and mainstream cars from Benz, should be pretty much the SAME as Benzo's.

[G. David Felt]

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Coupe and Convertible are definitely necessary. Its part of what is holding Cadillac back in terms of prestige. In fact.. I believe Cadillac should have a convertible in CT3, CT5, and CT6 (or CT8) no different than Benz. Quite frankly Cadillac's line-up, BARRING the cheap compliance and mainstream cars from Benz, should be pretty much the SAME as Benzo's.

Guess living in a rainy state with money, I rarely see a convertible, but plenty of coupes. I honestly cannot say when I last saw a convertible from Benz, BMW or really any other car brand except Mustang and Camaro.

I will say that Silver Escalade is sexy. Imagine if the C pillar was black rather than silver and you would have a long floating roof on it till you got to the sexy tail lights. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

I see them all the time here in Maryland especially because of the fact that we really only have three seasons and we get pretty nice Sunshine days from March to October.  Regardless... a luxo brand should not be all about practicality to be frank.  Exuberance is a necessity. A convertible is more of an expression of opulence than even a sports car. Especially if your 4 seater is rolling down the freeway,  top down and just one occupant.  And mind U...  I'm not a convertible buyer,  but I have a crazy amount of friends who are.  

Also the floating roof on the Escalade is an easy mod

[hyperv6]

The lack of a Coupe and Convertible is not holding Cadillac back. If anything it is helping them as coupes in general are languishing in sales in all classes right now. 

They really need to get the details right on the CTS and ATS in the major make over. They then need to address the market with image and let it go till it grows to connect again with Cadillac. Even then the CUV and SUV models will dominate. 

If they do a coupe it will need to be on the high end as they will sell in such low volumes the price will have to make up the profits. Lets face it the CTS and ATS coupe both really are rare sights as are most coupes outside the muscle coupes that are now on the decline in sales. 

If you were to do a convertible I would love a proper Roadster with a good trunk to compete with the BMW roadster. Base it on the Alpha and price it to a place where people would be willing to give it a chance vs another $100K failure. This would also keep the Vette and it exclusive. 

Cadillac does not have to compete with Benz and BMW on every level. They just need to build cars that work and build their image. They need to get products people will buy and not regret later.  

This class is very socially aware and people often feel they are defined by what they drive. Cadillac needs to continue to improve the product to a level of no compromise or excuse and let the product earns its place back over the coming years. ATP is way up as are sales in China so it is not a matter of survival it is a matter of time and product.

Lets face it people like to drop the name BMW or Benz at a party and if you drop Cadillac people think you just do not measure up yet. Compelling products will bring that back but it will take time to earn that image and trust back. 

Cadillac did not piss the image away over one year and one model and they will not get it back with one model and one year. 

To be honest if they get the CUV models right people will give them a shot and the image will be earned back for the name covering the cars too. GM can make the best CUV models and Cadillac can ride these back to respectability. 

You earn their respect and trust on a CUV and next time they buy a car it may be a Cadillac. 

[regfootball]

Cadillac is completely pants down on the market.  Need crossovers.

[cp-the-nerd]

Entry level luxury coupe/sedan to compete with Audi A3... why do I get the sinking feeling this is going to be FWD.

[G. David Felt]

5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Also the floating roof on the Escalade is an easy mod

Sexy as HELL!  

20 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Entry level luxury coupe/sedan to compete with Audi A3... why do I get the sinking feeling this is going to be FWD.

I really hope not, but I do wonder after seeing the terrible badge job on Holden.

[Cmicasa the Great]

12 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

The lack of a Coupe and Convertible is not holding Cadillac back. If anything it is helping them as coupes in general are languishing in sales in all classes right now. 

They really need to get the details right on the CTS and ATS in the major make over. They then need to address the market with image and let it go till it grows to connect again with Cadillac. Even then the CUV and SUV models will dominate. 

If they do a coupe it will need to be on the high end as they will sell in such low volumes the price will have to make up the profits. Lets face it the CTS and ATS coupe both really are rare sights as are most coupes outside the muscle coupes that are now on the decline in sales. 

If you were to do a convertible I would love a proper Roadster with a good trunk to compete with the BMW roadster. Base it on the Alpha and price it to a place where people would be willing to give it a chance vs another $100K failure. This would also keep the Vette and it exclusive. 

Cadillac does not have to compete with Benz and BMW on every level. They just need to build cars that work and build their image. They need to get products people will buy and not regret later.  

This class is very socially aware and people often feel they are defined by what they drive. Cadillac needs to continue to improve the product to a level of no compromise or excuse and let the product earns its place back over the coming years. ATP is way up as are sales in China so it is not a matter of survival it is a matter of time and product.

Lets face it people like to drop the name BMW or Benz at a party and if you drop Cadillac people think you just do not measure up yet. Compelling products will bring that back but it will take time to earn that image and trust back. 

Cadillac did not piss the image away over one year and one model and they will not get it back with one model and one year. 

To be honest if they get the CUV models right people will give them a shot and the image will be earned back for the name covering the cars too. GM can make the best CUV models and Cadillac can ride these back to respectability. 

You earn their respect and trust on a CUV and next time they buy a car it may be a Cadillac. 

I'm sorry. I do love Cadillac, but I'm also IN LOVE with Cadillac. Like I wish it could have my baby and we settle down and live happily ever after with me never ever looking at another woman again kinda love. 

That being said.. Yes.. Caddy NEEDS a coupe and convertible. The lack of these extravagant actually is holding the brand back. I bet great money that just the addition of Lexus' LC500 will instantly catapult that tired brand into more legitimate comparisons to Benz and BMW. In fact.. and this bewilders the shit out of me.. the previous Gen CTS's Coupe was doing the exact same thing for Cadillac. The loss of that car actually stumped their ascension. It wasn't about practicality.. it was about the "WOW.. look at that... Hold Up.. is that a Cadillac?" factor. Believe me.. as an ex-CTS-V Coupe owner I watched slobber lines trail even the most staunch German luxo lover like a snail leaves a trail on the sidewalk in the Spring. 

Yes the CUV segment needs to be addressed. Obviously. That's announced. I covered it before with the whole "Cadillac 2 versus Mercedes 7 CUVs" talk above. They need them for sales.. but sales don't equal prestige.. which I really don't agree with U completely in terms of "name dropping at parties." LOL.. a very tired statement that car forum people like to use.. Either way.. I've been to these parties after pulling up.. and I have never not once in the last 8 years .. been belittled for owning and promoting owning Cadillacs. Very often having comments of "must be nice being able to.. " lobbed at me. The only time I've been asked why Cadillac and not BMW or Benz was when it was someone who was still in the mindset of the old DEVILLE Cadillacs. My current Caddy stops people in their tracks. A Coupe would have given them a heart attack.. a Vert??? Instant DEATH.

Again. CUVs for sales. Great CUVs with luxury as a priority. Niche cars are still a very necessary component. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

8 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Entry level luxury coupe/sedan to compete with Audi A3... why do I get the sinking feeling this is going to be FWD.

Becuse it could be.. but I doubt it considering the need to continue utilizing the RWD Alpha Platform.

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Sexy as HELL!  

and pretty easy to do. I might try to see what it looks like on the Yukon this weekend with some plastidip. 

[Drew Dowdell]

We need to start calling some of these "crossovers" like the GLA, QX30, GLE, X1, etc, what they really are.... hatchbacks. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Refreshed XTS predictions: mild update to front and rear fascias. Base powertrain matches the Buick Lacrosse.  . slight interior nip and tuck. V-Sport dropped. Possibly the 3.0TT as option engine upgrade. Introduction of Cadillac's SuperCruise is a possibility, I've seen test mule XTSes in Pittsburgh and there is a lot of self driving car research going on here. 

[hyperv6]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I'm sorry. I do love Cadillac, but I'm also IN LOVE with Cadillac. Like I wish it could have my baby and we settle down and live happily ever after with me never ever looking at another woman again kinda love. 

That being said.. Yes.. Caddy NEEDS a coupe and convertible. The lack of these extravagant actually is holding the brand back. I bet great money that just the addition of Lexus' LC500 will instantly catapult that tired brand into more legitimate comparisons to Benz and BMW. In fact.. and this bewilders the $h! out of me.. the previous Gen CTS's Coupe was doing the exact same thing for Cadillac. The loss of that car actually stumped their ascension. It wasn't about practicality.. it was about the "WOW.. look at that... Hold Up.. is that a Cadillac?" factor. Believe me.. as an ex-CTS-V Coupe owner I watched slobber lines trail even the most staunch German luxo lover like a snail leaves a trail on the sidewalk in the Spring. 

Yes the CUV segment needs to be addressed. Obviously. That's announced. I covered it before with the whole "Cadillac 2 versus Mercedes 7 CUVs" talk above. They need them for sales.. but sales don't equal prestige.. which I really don't agree with U completely in terms of "name dropping at parties." LOL.. a very tired statement that car forum people like to use.. Either way.. I've been to these parties after pulling up.. and I have never not once in the last 8 years .. been belittled for owning and promoting owning Cadillacs. Very often having comments of "must be nice being able to.. " lobbed at me. The only time I've been asked why Cadillac and not BMW or Benz was when it was someone who was still in the mindset of the old DEVILLE Cadillacs. My current Caddy stops people in their tracks. A Coupe would have given them a heart attack.. a Vert??? Instant DEATH.

Again. CUVs for sales. Great CUVs with luxury as a priority. Niche cars are still a very necessary component. 

Here is the deal. I want Cadillac to be the best damn car company in the world. Or at least in the segment they are in. But here is the problem.

No matter the make Coupe and Convertible sales are tanking. It is a segment that is a hard sell even if you have the best car in the eyes of the public. Cadillac has offered two coupes and a wagon that all sold in numbers hard to make a business case over.

Add to that it is not going to return prestige anymore than getting the other higher volume products right, The key now it to take the core product and return it to what it should be and let the customers come back to it and regain trust. If you can get a Sedan or CUV right the Coupe is going to languish.

Now if you want to do a coupe it almost needs to be a flagship model It has to be high end price wise to justify the expense for the low volume it will sell in. You would have a better chance there but even then so few people will see one as it will be in such small numbers.

BMW was built on a 3 series coupe and they moved to the sedan as the market did.  Today the coupe is only a token and may not last all that long for them.

As for going to parties no one is going to get in your face about driving a Cadillac. This is a image and mind set. They will not dis you but you are seen as the guy who could not afford the more expensive car. While Cadillac is changing this the self image of the car is still in recovery. It is not that they hate the car they just do not see it on the same level as the other cars.

Same thing applied to other cars like the Boxster for years screamed to many as you were the guy who could not afford the 911.

The new cars have advanced the Cadillac image and it is still in rehab yet. As I have said one car and one year will not undo decades of mistakes. Right now they need to get their core product back to being the best in class with no exceptions. They need to get Cadillac's image as one that people feel reflect in a positive nature on them.

The long and short of it is the cars have been seen as damaged for many years. the CUV on the other hand is new and there is no preconceived notions there. Add to that the Escalade image and the path may be through the coming CUV models to the image they need and the trust they need to gain.

While a coupe and Convertible is cool and I personally would love to see it I just do not see how you could even justify the cost of putting them out there based on the present market reactions to a coupe.

If you want a convertible do a sedan convertible. Who else has one? What was Cadillac well known for when they really mattered? Open touring cars. Now that is a real flagship.

 

[G. David Felt]

@hyperv6 I totally agree with  you on Cadillac and would rather see the R&D spent on the Escalade and CUV lineup being the best in segment / Luxury Industry.

If a convertible needs to be done, high end for sure and a 4 door sedan convertible would be the way to do it in honor of the cadillacs of past and what people really wanted. That might even make me buy a car again if they did it right with room for us big folks.

4 door convertible  

[surreal1272]

I'm just sayin'

 

 

[G. David Felt]

20 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I'm just sayin'

Sexy as Hell!

This is a true example of "If you build it they will cum!"

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Sexy as Hell!

This is a true example of "If you build it they will cum!"

It should come standard with a bib and a drool bucket!

[balthazar]

12 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Entry level luxury coupe/sedan to compete with Audi A3... 

A3 ~
overall length : 176"
width : 71"
weight : 3200-3600
HP : 185-220
MSRP : $32K

ATS~
overall length : 183"
width : 71"
weight : 3400-3700
HP : 272-335
MSRP : $34K

Cadillac ALREADY HAS a car in the same segment as the A3!!
Otherwise Cadillac is playing a marketing shell game and wasting precious funds to build a car 3" shorter and $2000 less.
NOW, if the idea is to make the NEXT GEN ATS a bit smaller & (MUCH) less powerful (and hopefully NOT FWD), that's another discussion (regardless of the fact it would be going backwards in perception). 
But it would cataclysmically stupid to bring out ANOTHER sedan alongside the ATS. 

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

It should come standard with a bib and a drool bucket!

Yup this is enough to make any person drool! 

I honestly will never understand why Cadillac did not bring  this concept as is to market! 

[hyperv6]

Well JDN has said publicly that he would like to go back to Cadillac roots and to do a flagship that would represent a car that Cadillac did so well. He stated a 4 door touring car was what they were known for back in the golden era and that no one today even tries to do one. He felt it was a way to make them stand out and highlight their past when it really meant something.

Just so happens they were working on a show car like this before he got here too. Hmm?

 

It is said the flagship is not a 4 door sedan and the latest show car is not production. Hmmm?

Edited January 27, 2017 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We need to start calling some of these "crossovers" like the GLA, QX30, GLE, X1, etc, what they really are.... hatchbacks. 

Tall hatchbacks and tall wagons sell in the USA, like hatchbacks and wagons have sold in Europe the past 20 years.  With the exception of the GLE which I assume you mean the coupe version, is still pretty large, the rest are basically hatchbacks on stilts.  Lexus is coming out with a product for that segment also to replace the CT200 or whatever that hatchback thing they had was called. 

[Drew Dowdell]

yes, I did mean the GLE "crossover coupe"... which is really a 5-door hatchback. 

[smk4565]

Cadillac definitely needs a convertible, every luxury car company needs one.  Buick and Chevy have convertibles, how does Cadillac not?  It won't cost that much to make a convertible ATS or CTS, they already make a convertible on that platform, it isn't that hard.  

I think the ATS will grow in size, as every car grows in size, and they easily could make a smaller than ATS car, although people don't buy the ATS because they say it is too small, so I don't know how many sales they are going to get.

Not sure why even bother with an XTS refresh, unless it is really mild and costs very little.  They have an abundance of sedans and the XTS is probably only being kept around to sell to funeral homes.

They need crossovers and more crossovers.  Like Cmicasa said, Mercedes is up to 7, and yet they are all selling better than they did when they had 3.  Lexus, Audi and BMW have more crossovers coming, the market is crazy for them.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS sticks around because they still sell 3,000 of them a month and a lot of the parts are shared with other vehicles like the Lacrosse, XT5, and Impala, so it's relatively inexpensive to manufacture. 

I see an unusual number of V-Sports here in Pittsburgh.

[G. David Felt]

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think the ATS will grow in size, as every car grows in size,

I have to totally disagree with you on this statement. 

The mistake is of auto companies and marketing groups that say you always have to grow. BS, As long as the car is in the right size inside and out for the class of auto, then leave the size alone and just always make it better. 

Enlarging an auto is what has always screwed up the heritage and history of that auto.

Mustang and Camaro owners do not want a car the same size as an Eldorado with 2 doors.

We need to stop this lie that auto's will and must grow in size from generation to generation.

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The XTS sticks around because they still sell 3,000 of them a month and a lot of the parts are shared with other vehicles like the Lacrosse, XT5, and Impala, so it's relatively inexpensive to manufacture. 

I see an unusual number of V-Sports here in Pittsburgh.

Drew, same here in Washington. I believe it is the baby boomers as my dad loves the XTS but my mom refuses to give up her SRX and hates how low the car is so my dad traded in his truck for an SRX so they have two now.

The XTS at the dealership I go to are almost all sports. They usually only have one lower tier and one or two higher. Seems according to my salesman that the bulk of buying is the v-sport. Crazy but cool I think.

[Drew Dowdell]

420hp 390 lb-ft of torque and AWD in a big comfortable luxury car that has a bit of handling prowess (not the best, but enough) for $65k before incentives isn't a bad deal.  You can spend that much at Audi and come up 90 HP / 75lb-ft short.

[G. David Felt]

LOL - GMC Yukon XL Denali in Black Cherry Metallic

Cadillac Escalade Deep Amethyst Metallic

Love the black rim option on the web sites now for building your ride. But Really, is this not the same color? LOL

[Drew Dowdell]

the GMC looks darker

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

A3 ~
overall length : 176"
width : 71"
weight : 3200-3600
HP : 185-220
MSRP : $32K

ATS~
overall length : 183"
width : 71"
weight : 3400-3700
HP : 272-335
MSRP : $34K

Cadillac ALREADY HAS a car in the same segment as the A3!!
Otherwise Cadillac is playing a marketing shell game and wasting precious funds to build a car 3" shorter and $2000 less.
NOW, if the idea is to make the NEXT GEN ATS a bit smaller & (MUCH) less powerful (and hopefully NOT FWD), that's another discussion (regardless of the fact it would be going backwards in perception). 
But it would cataclysmically stupid to bring out ANOTHER sedan alongside the ATS. 

I was thinking that as well. The A3 fighter would essentially be the ATS with Cadillac going back to the "Biggest in class" philosophy but now lighter. I really believe that the ACTUAL ATS will be the same size as the ATS-L sold in China, while the CTS will remain the same exterior size but go on Omega and get a longer WB

[Cmicasa the Great]

4 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Here is the deal. I want Cadillac to be the best damn car company in the world. Or at least in the segment they are in. But here is the problem.

No matter the make Coupe and Convertible sales are tanking. It is a segment that is a hard sell even if you have the best car in the eyes of the public. Cadillac has offered two coupes and a wagon that all sold in numbers hard to make a business case over.

Add to that it is not going to return prestige anymore than getting the other higher volume products right, The key now it to take the core product and return it to what it should be and let the customers come back to it and regain trust. If you can get a Sedan or CUV right the Coupe is going to languish.

Now if you want to do a coupe it almost needs to be a flagship model It has to be high end price wise to justify the expense for the low volume it will sell in. You would have a better chance there but even then so few people will see one as it will be in such small numbers.

BMW was built on a 3 series coupe and they moved to the sedan as the market did.  Today the coupe is only a token and may not last all that long for them.

As for going to parties no one is going to get in your face about driving a Cadillac. This is a image and mind set. They will not dis you but you are seen as the guy who could not afford the more expensive car. While Cadillac is changing this the self image of the car is still in recovery. It is not that they hate the car they just do not see it on the same level as the other cars.

Same thing applied to other cars like the Boxster for years screamed to many as you were the guy who could not afford the 911.

The new cars have advanced the Cadillac image and it is still in rehab yet. As I have said one car and one year will not undo decades of mistakes. Right now they need to get their core product back to being the best in class with no exceptions. They need to get Cadillac's image as one that people feel reflect in a positive nature on them.

The long and short of it is the cars have been seen as damaged for many years. the CUV on the other hand is new and there is no preconceived notions there. Add to that the Escalade image and the path may be through the coming CUV models to the image they need and the trust they need to gain.

While a coupe and Convertible is cool and I personally would love to see it I just do not see how you could even justify the cost of putting them out there based on the present market reactions to a coupe.

If you want a convertible do a sedan convertible. Who else has one? What was Cadillac well known for when they really mattered? Open touring cars. Now that is a real flagship.

 

As I said.. they need Coupes and Converts. I have no issue with the bookends getting those first.. as in the ATS or sub-ATS getting them as well as the CT6 or CT8. Also I have to say that I find it ridiculous that U believe that some one wold actually THINK that a Cadillac buyer couldn't afford a "better car." Its silly because typically, outside of the CT6, which is priced low only in la la land and for bait and switch reasons, Cadillac is normally only a few thousand less than the competition.

E-Class $52,150    

5Series  $51,200

A6 $47,600   

CTS $46,555

XF $48,250  

GS  $46,310

Even if one went furthest away.. and picked the CTS vs E-Class we are only looking at a 5500 difference. If $5500 is an issue then none of these people should be in a luxury dealership anyway. Furthermore the prices of BMW and Benz are higher but their more abundant lease specials very often make the price less monthly. 

[hyperv6]

37 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

As I said.. they need Coupes and Converts. I have no issue with the bookends getting those first.. as in the ATS or sub-ATS getting them as well as the CT6 or CT8. Also I have to say that I find it ridiculous that U believe that some one wold actually THINK that a Cadillac buyer couldn't afford a "better car." Its silly because typically, outside of the CT6, which is priced low only in la la land and for bait and switch reasons, Cadillac is normally only a few thousand less than the competition.

E-Class $52,150    

5Series  $51,200

A6 $47,600   

CTS $46,555

XF $48,250  

GS  $46,310

Even if one went furthest away.. and picked the CTS vs E-Class we are only looking at a 5500 difference. If $5500 is an issue then none of these people should be in a luxury dealership anyway. Furthermore the prices of BMW and Benz are higher but their more abundant lease specials very often make the price less monthly. 

Note you have an issue here. Each and every one of these cars are sold globally. Cadillac for the near future is only going to be sold here and China where coupes are not really prized. Till Cadillac goes global your volume will suffer.

Just look at the volume the CTS and even today the ATS coupes sell at. Just no money there in the North American market.

 

It is not what I think it is the fact Cadillac just does not have the name equity it once had and still has less than the other brands. Not many people name drop Cadillac to impress people. 

You can say you own a Cadillac and be like my old neighbor with a old STS winter beater. With a BMW most people [not me]  think of an expensive car and not some piece of crap on a used car lot. Yes there are plenty rolling wreck BMWs too but that is not the first reaction people get.

Lets face it the big names do not make cars for Mary Kay.

Edited January 27, 2017 by hyperv6

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

the GMC looks darker

That is what I thought, when on the web site they look Identical, but downloading the pictures the GMC does look darker but that I think is due to the lighting as they put the light on the Escalade and back lite the GMC.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

Note you have an issue here. Each and every one of these cars are sold globally. Cadillac for the near future is only going to be sold here and China where coupes are not really prized. Till Cadillac goes global your volume will suffer.

Just look at the volume the CTS and even today the ATS coupes sell at. Just no money there in the North American market.

 

It is not what I think it is the fact Cadillac just does not have the name equity it once had and still has less than the other brands. Not many people name drop Cadillac to impress people. 

You can say you own a Cadillac and be like my old neighbor with a old STS winter beater. With a BMW most people [not me]  think of an expensive car and not some piece of crap on a used car lot. Yes there are plenty rolling wreck BMWs too but that is not the first reaction people get.

Lets face it the big names do not make cars for Mary Kay.

 

The CTS saw 33% of its sales being a coupe last go around. Coupes, while not favored as hot sellers in the TWO LARGEST markets is no reason to not have a coupe in a singular luxury division.. nor is not having a convertible.. when they are available in the lower brands. Of course following your logic.. WE WILL NOT KNO AS IF IT ISN'T BUILT THEN IT CAN'T BE BOUGHT.

Again.. I don't kno where U live but in Maryland/VA all the way down to Atlanta name dropping Cadillac is a big deal and 80% of the people I hear doing it or hearing are of the opinion that Cadillac is a high up as Benz and BMW.. just in some cases (20%) for older customers. That perception is changing.. and just because the age demo is perceived as higher doesn't equate to it being lessor.  I can name drop Cadillac or Escalade all day and people instantly hear $$$. 

And Mary Kay picks the cars they want and have wanted for over 50 years, and over 100,000 units. For your information.. they also offer a 7series.. that's a BMW... But top sales reps consistently seem to still opt for the Pink Cadillac, because of the statement. 

BTW.. it truly occurs to me that no matter the strives Cadillac has made and continues to make.. until they sell as many units as Benz or BMW they will not be thought of as great by forum lovers. Its kind of ironic when one thinks of it. 

[daves87rs]

I see all this and all I can think of is....CUV, CUV.

 

All that matters right now....

[smk4565]

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

I have to totally disagree with you on this statement. 

The mistake is of auto companies and marketing groups that say you always have to grow. BS, As long as the car is in the right size inside and out for the class of auto, then leave the size alone and just always make it better. 

Enlarging an auto is what has always screwed up the heritage and history of that auto.

Mustang and Camaro owners do not want a car the same size as an Eldorado with 2 doors.

We need to stop this lie that auto's will and must grow in size from generation to generation.

Drew, same here in Washington. I believe it is the baby boomers as my dad loves the XTS but my mom refuses to give up her SRX and hates how low the car is so my dad traded in his truck for an SRX so they have two now.

The XTS at the dealership I go to are almost all sports. They usually only have one lower tier and one or two higher. Seems according to my salesman that the bulk of buying is the v-sport. Crazy but cool I think.

I agree that cars should stay the same size, I don't like size creep either.  I am just stating it is what car companies do.  I think they are wrong for doing it, but they keep doing it, which all that does it force out your top end model, as Chevy and Ford are about to do when they kill the Impala and Taurus because Malibu and Fusion will get too big.  

[smk4565]

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

420hp 390 lb-ft of torque and AWD in a big comfortable luxury car that has a bit of handling prowess (not the best, but enough) for $65k before incentives isn't a bad deal.  You can spend that much at Audi and come up 90 HP / 75lb-ft short.

Except an Audi A6 Prestige with the V6 does 0-60 in 5.1 seconds and gets 21/29 mpg.  While the XTS V-sport does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and gets 16/23 mpg.  And you can get the Audi for $65k too and no doubt the A6 will handle better and has a better quality interior.    

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Note you have an issue here. Each and every one of these cars are sold globally. Cadillac for the near future is only going to be sold here and China where coupes are not really prized. Till Cadillac goes global your volume will suffer.

Just look at the volume the CTS and even today the ATS coupes sell at. Just no money there in the North American market.

 

It is not what I think it is the fact Cadillac just does not have the name equity it once had and still has less than the other brands. Not many people name drop Cadillac to impress people. 

You can say you own a Cadillac and be like my old neighbor with a old STS winter beater. With a BMW most people [not me]  think of an expensive car and not some piece of crap on a used car lot. Yes there are plenty rolling wreck BMWs too but that is not the first reaction people get.

Lets face it the big names do not make cars for Mary Kay.

You can't build any brand equity with sedans and a couple crossovers based on a Chevy.  That is why they need a convertible, to get some image.  That is why they need some sort of sports car too.  And to your point about volume, it is why they need to sell in more countries and build product that can compete in places outside of North America and China.

[hyperv6]

15 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

The CTS saw 33% of its sales being a coupe last go around. Coupes, while not favored as hot sellers in the TWO LARGEST markets is no reason to not have a coupe in a singular luxury division.. nor is not having a convertible.. when they are available in the lower brands. Of course following your logic.. WE WILL NOT KNO AS IF IT ISN'T BUILT THEN IT CAN'T BE BOUGHT.

Again.. I don't kno where U live but in Maryland/VA all the way down to Atlanta name dropping Cadillac is a big deal and 80% of the people I hear doing it or hearing are of the opinion that Cadillac is a high up as Benz and BMW.. just in some cases (20%) for older customers. That perception is changing.. and just because the age demo is perceived as higher doesn't equate to it being lessor.  I can name drop Cadillac or Escalade all day and people instantly hear $$$. 

And Mary Kay picks the cars they want and have wanted for over 50 years, and over 100,000 units. For your information.. they also offer a 7series.. that's a BMW... But top sales reps consistently seem to still opt for the Pink Cadillac, because of the statement. 

BTW.. it truly occurs to me that no matter the strives Cadillac has made and continues to make.. until they sell as many units as Benz or BMW they will not be thought of as great by forum lovers. Its kind of ironic when one thinks of it. 

Stop using percentages and use real volume sold numbers. Then go to the ATS and tell us all how many they are selling. Just how much money is there and will they even make the development money back. 

This is full disclosure here not a political debate. 

The Mary Kay cars are a sign of a problem. 100,000 car is not something you want to brag about. The reason Cadillac is chosen more is few get to the BMW level and plus the pink cars are popular in the trailer parks. 

First you need to drop that Cadillac needs to sell as many cars as BMW and Benz. We are not selling Chevy Volume games here. This segment is about profits per unit and grow the volume to where you make good money not necessarily out sell the others. 

At Chevy and Toyota you have to survive on volume. That is the only way to make money. Now here it cost you very little more to develop the car and the contents are not much more but in the end you sell it for 4 times what you sell a Chevy for. The profits on these models are only eclipsed by the trucks. In fact most luxury brands come no where near Benz and BMW because they all have other volume brands that take care of it vs. Benz and BMW have no cheap lines and have to do it all though their main lines in the auto line. Mini is the only cheap player involved here. 

When push comes to shove BMW will have to at some point partner with a major play to remain independent. They already are working with Toyota now.  

There was a time no one though BMW as great. It was the quirky little car down the street the guy in the tweed cap drove and though he was European though he came from Orange County. Over time and many models in the 70's and 80's they began to offer products people did like and saw value in. They liked the image it put on them as it in their eyes improved their self value. Others liked it as they were also fun to drive. In time they defined the class and gave the expectation people wanted in this segment.

As for name dropping Cadillac was a joke in the 80's and only started to improve in the 90's but still was never a player at the top with FWD. They as the new CTS came out gained ground with the inclusion of AWD and RWD. But the fact GM never fully committed to make them luxury car they needed to be has held them back. They also had a revolving door of leadership over the last how many years. 

In the end here we now have a stable leader who at this point has remained longer than most. He has the fulls support finacially by GM. He has moved the company away from Detroit to attract better talent and keep the GM board at arms length. We have a slew of new product that will hopefully signal the change in Cadillac and show they can build the complete well sorted deal with no excused or compromise. Then it is up to marketing and time to change the opinions of people. 

Also you change the minds of the people in Blue states where American cars are not the favorite you make gains there you know  you are on the right path. 

But the reality is you can build a Convertible and or Coupe and it will change nothing. 

When building and marketing cars you do it with you head not your heart. 

You gain peoples trust with the new CUV models at $60K and then you might be able to sell more coupes and convertibles at prices where you might just make money. Right now you are just going to get another CTS and ATS low volume car that sells maybe 5K-6K units at best in North America. 

Other factors are in play here too. Cadillac has yet to really do a marketing push as they are waiting for the new products. Why blow a lot of money on the present cars and get people to think this is the new Cadillac only to change it in a year or two. That would be a mixed message hard to undo. 

Also you have to consider that the Germans have to sell cheaper models to make up volume they lack. Many badge buyers opt for the German car even with less options for $10K or more less than cars like a loaded up ATS. 

This is a complex deal and it takes time, investment and a lot of work to change the line. We should see more progress once the new product arrives but even then Cadillac is not going to pass up Benz in volume. But if they make more money per unit and make more money as a whole they have won the game. 

[hyperv6]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

You can't build any brand equity with sedans and a couple crossovers based on a Chevy.  That is why they need a convertible, to get some image.  That is why they need some sort of sports car too.  And to your point about volume, it is why they need to sell in more countries and build product that can compete in places outside of North America and China.

You think Cadillac can be saved with a cars they may sell 3K units of? 

I agree they can not be a fancy Chevy. The are working to fix that now as a Cadillac should not have the same V6 my Bu has. 

Yes they need to sell more overseas but until they have the right product why fail again and again and again. Or do you want another BTS? As it is they can make a lot of money and they do not need to be #1 in volume. This segment is about making money more than selling cars like Toyota. 

Sports car. Hmm I can see the last two times that really did a lot of good.  They do real well on the used market as you can buy a V Roadster for less than $30K now from its original $100K. 

You your brain and not your heart. Do you really think people will again trust Cadillac with a $100K sports car when they can even get people to buy the CTS sedan or even the ATS coupe. 

They need to focus on their core and then add the fun things. You need the core products to be right before you spill over to models for attention that make little to no money. How  many times do you need to see them fail at this before it sinks in. 

Cadillac is not a sports car company at this point. Today is really the first real step at Daytona. You start winning races and you get the name out there associated with a winner you might have a chance to sell a sports car. Right not Cadillac selling a sports car is like going to Mc Donald for a Steak and expecting Ruth Criss. 

Lets let them finish the products they are working on and just see what we get and how they market it. No single car is going to save them or lead them out of the funk it will take the line done right and the proper marketing once it is here. 

Things need fixed as selling he XTS,  CT6 and CTS is a confusing proposition as to the casual observer they all look similar. All three have a different task but it really has not been defined to the public. 

There will be a place and time for a Convertible but when you have not eaten for days you need more than a Hersey bar to fix the problem. 

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Except an Audi A6 Prestige with the V6 does 0-60 in 5.1 seconds and gets 21/29 mpg.  While the XTS V-sport does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and gets 16/23 mpg.  And you can get the Audi for $65k too and no doubt the A6 will handle better and has a better quality interior.    

no one shopping these cars is going to worry about 0.2 seconds to 60 mph....not even you, all you worry about is the badge on the grille.  The XTS has more passenger room, more trunk space and a more comfortable (and adjustable) ride, far more practical reasons to choose a car in this class than 0.2 seconds to 60.  

All I'm saying is that for a car that gets so maligned by so many enthusiasts, I see a heck of a lot of XTS V-Sports around, probably more often than I see CTS V-Sports. 

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

You can't build any brand equity with sedans and a couple crossovers based on a Chevy.  That is why they need a convertible, to get some image.  That is why they need some sort of sports car too.  And to your point about volume, it is why they need to sell in more countries and build product that can compete in places outside of North America and China.

The Escalade disagrees with your assertion that you can't build equity off of a Chevy. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I am nearly certain that the new Traverse will translate well into an XT7.  After crawling over it in Detroit, it should make a good basis for one, however, I will say that they will need to at least offer an upper engine choice like the 3.0TT or a 3.6TT. 

I thought the Lincoln Aviator was supposed to be out already. At this rate, the XT7 and Aviator could hit the market in the same year, which could make for some very interesting comparisons.  The current Traverse is a pig at 4700 lbs base and the new one's weight loss of ~300 lbs puts it just slightly under the base Explorer.  Add the typical Cadillac and Lincoln weight to each and they're probably back to 4700 lbs.  To compete with the inevitable turbo-charged engine lineup offerings from Lincoln, Cadillac must offer something more than just the 3.6 V6.  It can be there in base trim, but more needs to be offered.

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Stop using percentages and use real volume sold numbers. Then go to the ATS and tell us all how many they are selling. Just how much money is there and will they even make the development money back. 

This is full disclosure here not a political debate. 

The Mary Kay cars are a sign of a problem. 100,000 car is not something you want to brag about. The reason Cadillac is chosen more is few get to the BMW level and plus the pink cars are popular in the trailer parks. 

First you need to drop that Cadillac needs to sell as many cars as BMW and Benz. We are not selling Chevy Volume games here. This segment is about profits per unit and grow the volume to where you make good money not necessarily out sell the others. 

At Chevy and Toyota you have to survive on volume. That is the only way to make money. Now here it cost you very little more to develop the car and the contents are not much more but in the end you sell it for 4 times what you sell a Chevy for. The profits on these models are only eclipsed by the trucks. In fact most luxury brands come no where near Benz and BMW because they all have other volume brands that take care of it vs. Benz and BMW have no cheap lines and have to do it all though their main lines in the auto line. Mini is the only cheap player involved here. 

When push comes to shove BMW will have to at some point partner with a major play to remain independent. They already are working with Toyota now.  

There was a time no one though BMW as great. It was the quirky little car down the street the guy in the tweed cap drove and though he was European though he came from Orange County. Over time and many models in the 70's and 80's they began to offer products people did like and saw value in. They liked the image it put on them as it in their eyes improved their self value. Others liked it as they were also fun to drive. In time they defined the class and gave the expectation people wanted in this segment.

As for name dropping Cadillac was a joke in the 80's and only started to improve in the 90's but still was never a player at the top with FWD. They as the new CTS came out gained ground with the inclusion of AWD and RWD. But the fact GM never fully committed to make them luxury car they needed to be has held them back. They also had a revolving door of leadership over the last how many years. 

In the end here we now have a stable leader who at this point has remained longer than most. He has the fulls support finacially by GM. He has moved the company away from Detroit to attract better talent and keep the GM board at arms length. We have a slew of new product that will hopefully signal the change in Cadillac and show they can build the complete well sorted deal with no excused or compromise. Then it is up to marketing and time to change the opinions of people. 

Also you change the minds of the people in Blue states where American cars are not the favorite you make gains there you know  you are on the right path. 

But the reality is you can build a Convertible and or Coupe and it will change nothing. 

When building and marketing cars you do it with you head not your heart. 

You gain peoples trust with the new CUV models at $60K and then you might be able to sell more coupes and convertibles at prices where you might just make money. Right now you are just going to get another CTS and ATS low volume car that sells maybe 5K-6K units at best in North America. 

Other factors are in play here too. Cadillac has yet to really do a marketing push as they are waiting for the new products. Why blow a lot of money on the present cars and get people to think this is the new Cadillac only to change it in a year or two. That would be a mixed message hard to undo. 

Also you have to consider that the Germans have to sell cheaper models to make up volume they lack. Many badge buyers opt for the German car even with less options for $10K or more less than cars like a loaded up ATS. 

This is a complex deal and it takes time, investment and a lot of work to change the line. We should see more progress once the new product arrives but even then Cadillac is not going to pass up Benz in volume. But if they make more money per unit and make more money as a whole they have won the game. 

 

Coupla things Bud. I am the last person that thinks Cadillac needs to strive for massive volume. I think they need volume to a certain degree as they yield more profit per vehicle than any other GM vehicles sides the K2xx, but I have long advocated that the Cadillac sales channel should be merged in with the Buick/GMC one to negate any thought of volume being a necessary component of success.. similar to how Jag/LR get no flack for small sales (105K combined with LR carrying 73K of that weight in US or a total of about 500K in 2016)

Second.. why not use percentages? Percentages are how real business operates.

Third. At what point was Cadillac a joke in real circles in the 80s outside of the mechanical issues of the diesel and 4-6-8? In the 80s the Cadillac name was more prestigious than the 90s in fact. If for no other reason than the new kids from Japan hadn't truly arrived yet

AND AGAIN.. CADILLAC NEEDS A DAMN CONVERTIBLE AND COUPE

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I am nearly certain that the new Traverse will translate well into an XT7.  After crawling over it in Detroit, it should make a good basis for one, however, I will say that they will need to at least offer an upper engine choice like the 3.0TT or a 3.6TT. 

I thought the Lincoln Aviator was supposed to be out already. At this rate, the XT7 and Aviator could hit the market in the same year, which could make for some very interesting comparisons.  The current Traverse is a pig at 4700 lbs base and the new one's weight loss of ~300 lbs puts it just slightly under the base Explorer.  Add the typical Cadillac and Lincoln weight to each and they're probably back to 4700 lbs.  To compete with the inevitable turbo-charged engine lineup offerings from Lincoln, Cadillac must offer something more than just the 3.6 V6.  It can be there in base trim, but more needs to be offered.

 

It blows me away that Cadillac even still uses the 3.6L at all considering the under-utilized LF3, LF4 and LGW. The LGX is simply not necessary anymore. The use of the 3.0L TT would be perfect even it was just re-tuned to 335HP.. which would be bonkers when a sweet spot would be 360HP and the given torque advantage of the forced induction

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

It blows me away that Cadillac even still uses the 3.6L at all considering the under-utilized LF3, LF4 and LGW. The LGX is simply not necessary anymore. The use of the 3.0L TT would be perfect even it was just re-tuned to 335HP.. which would be bonkers when a sweet spot would be 360HP and the given torque advantage of the forced induction

They are able to hide behind the excellent 8-speed and 9-speed automatics for the moment, but that moment isn't going to last very long and may already be over. 

The XT5 I drove felt way faster than its numbers suggested it should, but I really feel it is because of the way the transmission is geared. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They are able to hide behind the excellent 8-speed and 9-speed automatics for the moment, but that moment isn't going to last very long and may already be over. 

The XT5 I drove felt way faster than its numbers suggested it should, but I really feel it is because of the way the transmission is geared. 

I agree. The XT5 I test recently did feel very quick. I was surprised at first.. but considered the gearing and the lighter weight versus the SRX and even the '15 Q5 a friend of mine has.. The Q5 is technically faster.. but it didn't feel like it. Cadillac should, IMO, go the forced induction only rout at this point. The revised 3.6L is nice, but the 3.0LTT, 3.6LTT, and even 2.0LTT (ironically has as much power literally as Audi's 3.0LSC) are simply better

Oh yeah Drew.. test drove this the other day. Ask me why I actually considered trading my Yukon in for this very awesome and nimble G.Cherokee competitor?

 

[hyperv6]

53 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

Coupla things Bud. I am the last person that thinks Cadillac needs to strive for massive volume. I think they need volume to a certain degree as they yield more profit per vehicle than any other GM vehicles sides the K2xx, but I have long advocated that the Cadillac sales channel should be merged in with the Buick/GMC one to negate any thought of volume being a necessary component of success.. similar to how Jag/LR get no flack for small sales (105K combined with LR carrying 73K of that weight in US or a total of about 500K in 2016)

Second.. why not use percentages? Percentages are how real business operates.

Third. At what point was Cadillac a joke in real circles in the 80s outside of the mechanical issues of the diesel and 4-6-8? In the 80s the Cadillac name was more prestigious than the 90s in fact. If for no other reason than the new kids from Japan hadn't truly arrived yet

AND AGAIN.. CADILLAC NEEDS A DAMN CONVERTIBLE AND COUPE

We agree on most things but the coupe and convertible. Just how many do you think they will sell? Give me a real number. 

The reason I use real saturation numbers is it puts it in real perspective when you deal with a low volume brands. 

30% is not all that much when you only sell 25K units over all. It put things a little more honestly. Business often use percentages publicly as can be much easier to hide the face your 35% gain was only 150 cars over last month. 

The Cadillac name has been on a slow decline since 1960. When GM moved them to a volume brand they slowly declined from what they once were to what they became. The fact is it was like boiling frogs. They turned the heat up on you slowly over several decades and you never realized how bad things were or got. That is understandable but now looking back it is clear when you look at what Cadillac did in the 1930's they were far from it in the 80's. 

When GM decreed everything had to be smaller and FWD Cadillac tanked. Some like to say the Cimarron but the first FWD Deville was the failure point. They even rushed a make over due to the failure in the market of the car. They strapped on longer quarters but it did not help much. 

Now if you can say with a straight face that the Cadillacs of the 80s were good or great cars you have lost all credibility. 

The bottom line is the bottom fell out someplace and today you are looking at a damaged brand that has struggled to regain where it once was. At one time the Cadillac was the best car in the world with out dispute. The craftsmanship was beyond compare and it really was a better car than a Rolls. To own one at this time meant you really were someone and few others could afford the car.

Then the change to mass volumes came chasing the dollar in the 60's and later. Then the bottom came out when they made the car just another GM car with a badge.

The bottom line is a Cadillac should not be a car that just anyone can buy or afford. They lost that right and have to earn it back.

Now in a market with coupe selling in less and less numbers daily they matter little. The convertible would be a solid idea if you are doing a 4 door touring car that will show you are different and why. Even a Alpha based sports car done properly but affordably with a decent trunk and GT like qualities would be reasonable at $50K. People would be willing to use that amount to gamble if it is a good car or not if the styling is compelling.  

But there is absolutely no way a coupe is a band aide that will fix Cadillac all on its own. Like it or not the CUV is going to have to be their salvation as this is where the market is going. Pay the bills with the CUV and then make the fun niche cars once you accomplished that. 

Also a coupe is DOA till Cadillac returns to a global market. That ain't happening for a while so that ain't going to help. 

I find many of the people who are Cadillac people really are not the kind of people Cadillac needs anymore. It should not be the car of truck drivers or hair dressers but it should be the car of leaders. [note no reflection on you just the many I see in Cadillac's] 

I can remember in the early 80's working at a gas station in a bad part of town. I took a customer home to his $6K house while riding in his near $18K Eldo. We had to stop so he could give a man a brief case for some money. Not a trip I enjoyed much. 

Same in the 80's we had a bar tender next to the station. He owned a new Eldo. Classy guy. He was charged with a felony for shooting a guy in the back because his drunk girl friend talked to him. He used to have us wash his new Eldo with the fire hose when we washed the parking lot. Ya Cadillac really appealed to a group of leaders in the community at the time. 

I bet if it were today they would not be driving a Benz or Bentley. 

Now I would agree to a Bentley GT coupe like car when Cadillac is ready for such a car but that is still beyond their ability to sell. I know they could build one but selling one is another story. That is beyond their price grade the customers would trust yet. 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

It blows me away that Cadillac even still uses the 3.6L at all considering the under-utilized LF3, LF4 and LGW. The LGX is simply not necessary anymore. The use of the 3.0L TT would be perfect even it was just re-tuned to 335HP.. which would be bonkers when a sweet spot would be 360HP and the given torque advantage of the forced induction

I agree, Cadillac should have an all turbo line up at this point.  Even with Escalade they could do a turbo V6 and a turbo V8 option.  The 3.6 V6 is useless, it has no torque and doesn't get good gas mileage. 

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I agree, Cadillac should have an all turbo line up at this point.  Even with Escalade they could do a turbo V6 and a turbo V8 option.  The 3.6 V6 is useless, it has no torque and doesn't get good gas mileage. 

Let me make something abundantly clear here. The Escalade does not ever need a V6 of any kind. It has earned part of its reputation on the 6.2L and that should not change. They have plenty of smaller models in their lineup that could use a turbo six but that brute is not one of them.