Message from CR

[Mr.Krinkle]

Just for the hell of it.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/re...06/overview.htm

[Snate]

This article may be the most intelligent one to come out of CR...ever.

[sciguy_0504]

A car can only be so reliable.

[Snate]

A car can only be so reliable.

Especially with the ever increasing complexity in new cars.

[Northstar]

I don't understand how CR can recommend so many Asian vehicles when they have 12 problems per 100 vehicles, but they can't recommend so many American cars because they aren't reliable enough when the average American cars have 18 problems per 100 vehicles.

I guess that's 1 1/2 times as many problems, but it doesn't seem like one vehicle should be recommended for only having a 12% chance of having a problem when one with only a 18% chance isn't. A 12% and 18% chance of having a problem are pretty similar.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I don't understand how CR can recommend so many Asian vehicles when they have 12 problems per 100 vehicles, but they can't recommend so many American cars because they aren't reliable enough when the average American cars have 18 problems per 100 vehicles.

I guess that's 1 1/2 times as many problems, but it doesn't seem like one vehicle should be recommended for only having a 12% chance of having a problem when one with only a 18% chance isn't. A 12% and 18% chance of having a problem are pretty similar.

every year these cr people supposedly get more survey responses. now, im no scientist and this is pure speculation but maybe there is some law of mathematics thats gonna bite them on the ass real soon. statistics and probability or the law of averages.

it really is something though, these studies, especially cr's really lack validity and reliability themselves, but in some way manage to come to the conclusion that hey...theyre all pretty much really damn close.

now, how exactly do they propose to pinpoint the exact minutia that differentiate cars and their reliability. granted some makes/models are doomed from the get go but thats not too common, i dont think.

im sure most of you guys have seen this, if not here it is.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

Edited May 17, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[LTB51]

every year these cr people supposedly get more survey responses.  now, im no scientist and this is pure speculation but maybe there is some law of mathematics thats gonna bite them on the ass real soon.  statistics and probability or the law of averages. 

it really is something though,  these studies, especially cr's really lack validity and reliability themselves,  but in some way manage to come to the conclusion that hey...theyre all pretty much really damn close.

now, how exactly do they propose to pinpoint the exact minutia that differentiate cars and their reliability.  granted some makes/models are doomed from the get go but thats not too common, i dont think. 

im sure most of you guys have seen this, if not here it is.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

Lets be honest... most of this is just bitching because we don't like results.

Many of the complaints on that site are irrelevant. Many of them apply to JD Powers as well. But where is the site complaining about JD Powers?

We now know that JD Powers is terribly inaccurate.... currently by as much as 40% by their own admission. And even the changes they have made to rectify it don't address their two biggest problems:

1) These changes will mean that JD will be up to 40% more accurate than they were previously. I don't yet have all the details of the new methodology. But if, as the PR suggests, they just added questions on more "areas" of potentital quality issues, there is no guarantee that the survey isn't still missing "areas" (as it was before). Theoretially the next iteration could improve the accuracy yet again.... perhaps the current survey is greater than 100% off.

2) JD still considers an impression that the suspension is too tight as an equivalent quality issue to the engine having a catastrophic failure. That is a joke.

But perhaps the biggest joke is that, in spite of the known inadequacies of JD, there is still a web site complaining about absolutely meaningless items such as the CR response rate.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Lets be honest... most of this is just bitching because we don't like results.

Many of the complaints on that site are irrelevant.  Many of them apply to JD Powers as well.  But where is the site complaining about JD Powers?

We now know that JD Powers is terribly inaccurate.... currently by as much as 40% by their own admission.  And even the changes they have made to rectify it don't address their two biggest problems:

1) These changes will mean that JD will be up to 40% more accurate than they were previously.  I don't yet have all the details of the new methodology. But if, as the PR suggests, they just added questions on more "areas" of potentital quality issues, there is no guarantee that the survey isn't still missing "areas" (as it was before).  Theoretially the next iteration could improve the accuracy yet again.... perhaps the current survey is greater than 100% off.

2) JD still considers an impression that the suspension is too tight as an equivalent quality issue to the engine having a catastrophic failure.  That is a joke.

But perhaps the biggest joke is that, in spite of the known inadequacies of JD, there is still a web site complaining about absolutely meaningless items such as the CR response rate.

not really, they actually admit to a certain ceiling of reliability. and the numbers are so close that my point is who cares to what degree.

some cars are just lemons regardless of their "rating"

some are just poorly designed or victims of bad parts....it goes on.

there will never be an accurate way of determining these nuances. and if you try, you better have a pretty flawless method. otherwise its invalid and not reliable.

2 criteria for any successful survey. everything else is lip service.

not unlike the medical world and the placebo effect. how during testing people complain of side effects even when given sugar pills. its fascinating stuff.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i understand jd power is including "essay" form responces now...imagine reading through all of those. thats when they will really sh*t themselves.

2 people riding in the same car at the same time can have vastly different impressions.

[evok]

I just find this interesting.

http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2005268.pdf

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005036

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005236

Edited May 17, 2006 by evok

[I hope GMRULES again]

I just find this interesting.

http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2005268.pdf

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005036

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005236

Their PP100 #'s are a lot higher than ours for similiar models.

[Newbiewar]

Their PP100 #'s are a lot higher than ours for similiar models.

thats cause there cars are made from 5 cents on the dollar...

made in sweatshops... their cars are much cheaper...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Japanese AND Korean cars.... Geez, my how americans are so soon to forget the sh*tbags that came out of Korea not 10 years ago, yet Detroit still can't live down the 70's.

I guess that 10 year warrenty does a lot for image... Where is yours GM?.... Ford?

I guess CR has determined (Like most of the press) that the damage is already done, as Detroit is in an IRREVERSIBLE slide. Now all they have to do is sit back, fluff the "FACTS" every once in a while and watch Detroit crash and burn.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I just find this interesting.

http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2005268.pdf

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005036

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrel....asp?ID=2005236

They gotta jump start Toyota sales in BIASED China somehow after all...

GM is far to competitive over there, and Toyota is coming in as the underdog. So, the media will naturally come out swinging for the fence.

[evok]

They gotta jump start Toyota sales in BIASED China somehow after all...

GM is far to competitive over there, and Toyota is coming in as the underdog. So, the media will naturally come out swinging for the fence.

JD Power is not the media.

They call it like they see it.

This should be another wake up call for GM.