indiana Indiana Slaps new fee on EV's.

[G. David Felt]

G. David Felt
Staff Writer Alternative Energy - www.CheersandGears.com

 

Indiana Slaps new fee on EV's.

According to a post today by Green Car Reports, the state of Indiana has rolled out new fees for owning an Electric car being the second state behind Michigan with fees that cost more to drive an EV than a petro model.

Indiana EV owners will have to pay a $15 increase over standard registration fees when buying the EV. Plus a year $150 fee. Indiana has also moved to increase their gas tax from .10 cents per gallon one of the lowest in the country to .28 cents per gallon an .18 cent increase. The State legislation says that based on an average of 12,000 miles a year, 25 mpg, the average Indiana state resident will pay about $134.40 per year in gas tax. A Toyota Prius owner would pay about $67.20 based on their 50 mpg rating. This means that the EV driver will pay more than either hypothetical driver the House Republicans have stated who sponsored the bill. These folks believe this EV bill will add $2 million a year in revenue to the general fund. The representatives stated this was needed to help cover the cost of highway projects and lost gas tax revenue.

[loki]

all hail the power of the state!  haha... still not really that much.

[Suaviloquent]

You're gonna pay for the roads somehow, whether you pay at the pump, or pay at the charger.

[balthazar]

It is NOT the business of Gov't to arbitrarily legislate simply for "lost" revenue!

[Drew Dowdell]

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

It is NOT the business of Gov't to arbitrarily legislate simply for "lost" revenue!

How else do you want the roads paid for? Toll everything?

[oldshurst442]

22 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

How else do you want the roads paid for? Toll everything?

No. No toll.

But...legalize pot and the profit from pot pays for roads.

Just an idea. Im not advocating this. Just for back and forth banter purposes.

[balthazar]

 

Quote

How else do you want the roads paid for? Toll everything?

Think a little bit for a change. Budget better. Trim administration. Review contract bids MUCH more stringently. Think long-term. Stop blowing money on pet projects that look good on executive's resumes.

This is a little over half of the scratch REbuilt 23-lane toll plaza at the southern terminus of the Jersey Turnpike (a toll road). My wife used to travel down to Delaware for work on regular occasion a number of years back- she said the place was always empty. I went thru Mon this week around 9:30AM, the place was empty. I was unable to find a construction cost, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 100 million…. of toll money collected to maintain the roads. But oh- a 1000 Bolts are going to cost 'dollars we just don't have, unless tax' to maintain the roads. 

'Lost revenue'- please.

Edited January 12, 2017 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

No. No toll.

But...legalize pot and the profit from pot pays for roads.

Just an idea. Im not advocating this. Just for back and forth banter purposes.

Why should a pot user who doesn't own a car pay for the roads?

The gasoline tax was instituted because fuel use is a direct correlation with both distance traveled and weight of a vehicle.  All 4+ wheel vehicles put wear on roads, but a million Ford Fiestas do a lot less wear and tear on the road over time than a million F-250s. So a Ford Fiesta should pay less tax for that wear... and it does so by using less fuel and being more efficient.

Conversely, an F-250 that only travels 5,000 miles in a year uses the roads a lot less than a Fiesta doing 50,000 miles in a year, and pays less tax by using less fuel.

Unless we went to a yearly tax based entirely on distance X weight, the fuel tax is the fairest way to apply the tax.

EVs and Hybrids messed up that equation by not using as much fuel or not using fuel at all.  A Chevy Volt can go 20,000 miles in a year and only fill up 4 times. 

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

Think a little bit for a change. Budget better. Trim administration. Review contract bids MUCH more stringently. Think long-term. Stop blowing money on pet projects that look good on executive's resumes.

This is a little over half of the scratch REbuilt 23-lane toll plaza at the southern terminus of the Jersey Turnpike (a toll road). My wife used to travel down to Delaware for work on regular occasion a number of years back- she said the place was always empty. I went thru Mon this week around 9:30AM, the place was empty. I was unable to find a construction cost, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 100 million…. of toll money collected to maintain the roads. But oh- a 1000 Bolts are going to cost 'dollars we just don't have, unless tax' to maintain the roads. 

'Lost revenue'- please.

I'm not against full review of spending projects at all, that could even mean a reduction in gasoline taxes..... But the tax paid should be levied fairly.  Why should EV drivers get a free ride?

[loki]

use the principal of subsidiarity for taxes.

[oldshurst442]

@Drew Dowdell

LOL

Im sorry about my post. I was joking. Being foolish. Trolling if you will.

Very good points though.

Points that even If was playing devil's advocate, I wouldnt be able to counter.

 

[oldshurst442]

Seriously speaking though.

When I read this yesterday, my opinion was that the State of Indiana is against EVs and this is just a way to discourage people to buy EVs. I refrained from giving this opinion as I felt I was rushing my thoughts. Its a good thing I didnt share this thought process yesterday as reading yours (Drew's) and Suave's posts makes me realize that infrastructure repairs need a way to be financed. As gasoline usage goes down and EV usage goes up (eventually)...so does the need for governments to seek replacement income for said upkeep.

Edited January 12, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Seriously speaking though.

When I read this yesterday, my opinion was that the State of Indiana is against EVs and this is just a way to discourage people to buy EVs. I refrained from giving this opinion as I felt was rushing my thoughts. Its a good thing I didnt share this thought process as reading yours and Suave's posts makes me realize that infrastructure repairs need a way to be financed. As gasoline usage goes down and EV usage goes up...so does the need for government to seek replacement income for said upkeep.

I'm not sure that Indiana's solution is a good long term one, but it's probably the best they can do at the moment. 

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not sure that Indiana's solution is a good long term one, but it's probably the best they can do at the moment. 

Well. In Québec. No extra fees or taxes are put into EVs or EV usage. The opposite is true.

Sales tax exemptions for EV purchases. Lower Hydro rates for personal charging stations that are in your home, etc...

The only thing that may be more is car registration fees that are higher. But then again, maybe that is because a Tesla model S is a 100 000 dollar car and that puts it into luxury territory and luxury cars in Québec  are registered at a higher rate than normal cars...

[balthazar]

36 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Why should EV drivers get a free ride?

What do they do with hybrids- there's revenue being 'lost' there with every electric mile.

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

What do they do with hybrids- there's revenue being 'lost' there with every electric mile.

Eventually they're going to have to address that too.

There's even revenue being lost when Explorers and Durangos are getting 25mpg now verse the 18 mpg they got 15 years ago. The vehicles weigh the same or more yet are traveling further on the same gallon of gas, thus the tax per wear mile is lower today than it was 15 years ago. 

[oldshurst442]

Did anybody say...Free Ride?

Electric guitars....electric cars...

All over the country I've seen it the same
Nobody's winning at this kind of game
We've gotta do better, it's time to begin
You know all the answers must come from within
So come on and take a free ride

[balthazar]

15 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There's even revenue being lost when Explorers and Durangos are getting 25mpg now verse the 18 mpg they got 15 years ago. 

That's exactly where Gov't, as highly-compensated professionals/experts (supposedly- there are some amazingly stupid people on the public payroll), need to come up with the means to address this by every other available means BEFORE 'squeeze the public again' is automatically gone to. It is not supposed to be about 'protecting revenue streams' but protecting & serving the interests of the American citizen. 

[oldshurst442]

What category does infrastructure maintenance belong to?

Does it belong in the 'protecting & serving the interests of the American citizen' (or Canadian in my case) category?

Because I think it does.

Not that I dont agree with you @balthazar with your reasoning and your pleas regarding 'lost revenue streams'...

I agree wholeheartedly.

Less corruption in Quebec's case regarding construction contracts should be the rule of thumb waaaay before gouging citizens pockets...but it does take a ton of money to repair roads.

[Drew Dowdell]

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That's exactly where Gov't, as highly-compensated professionals/experts (supposedly- there are some amazingly stupid people on the public payroll), need to come up with the means to address this by every other available means BEFORE 'squeeze the public again' is automatically gone to. It is not supposed to be about 'protecting revenue streams' but protecting & serving the interests of the American citizen. 

This isn't about squeezing the public again. This is about trying to address a disparity in the way the fees are levied.  I'd agree with you how Indiana did it isn't the best way to go about it, but it is an issue that is going to have to be figured out. 

Our roads and infrastructure are in shambles... we aren't even keeping up with the maintenance on what we have today. Furthermore, the infrastructure is already being subsidized by the general tax base instead of solely on fuel taxes... to the tune of 57%.

[hyperv6]

Many states are losing money on gas tax and there are many plans on how to recover it. Oregon wants to charge you by the mile and the system is already sorted out. It is only a matter of time they will put it into play. 

Other will just keep raising the plate fees and other deals. 

Get used to it as CAFE goes up we will see more of this. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

Many states are losing money on gas tax and there are many plans on how to recover it.

This is, again, my beef with the narrative. States are not "losing money"; (in some cases) they're simply not making as much as they did earlier. But that's never the way it's worded, is it? Where is it written that peak revenue is guaranteed?

[Drew Dowdell]

22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

This is, again, my beef with the narrative. States are not "losing money"; (in some cases) they're simply not making as much as they did earlier. But that's never the way it's worded, is it? Where is it written that peak revenue is guaranteed?

Few states have not been pulling from the general fund for decades now.

[balthazar]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Few states have not been pulling from the general fund for decades now.

Pulling from the general fund is only indicative of operating outside their means, nothing else. Get lean or get out.
We've got to put the lid on spending somewhere & somehow. 

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

What do they do with hybrids- there's revenue being 'lost' there with every electric mile.

This is why tax by mile is fair for everyone. The more you drive the more you pay. With the Semi's having GPS, they can have them pay their fair share too for long haul trucking.

[Suaviloquent]

Eh, governments are doing too much of stealing wealth from the future by printing currency, but that's for another thread, another political crisis, and lots of blah blah on many view points on how to fix it, probably all being very good blah blah's.

 

Also, I LAUGHED MY ASS OFF TO HOW DREW REPLIED TO OLD'S FUNNY POST......

.....THAT WAS LIKE, 13/10, PLATINUM REWARDS CLASS HUMOUR....

[hyperv6]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

This is, again, my beef with the narrative. States are not "losing money"; (in some cases) they're simply not making as much as they did earlier. But that's never the way it's worded, is it? Where is it written that peak revenue is guaranteed?

It is simple less gas sold less tax. 

The only time it does work is if gas prices are down and people drive more.

With  electric cars will not return any money and they know in the future as their numbers increase it will get even worse.

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pulling from the general fund is only indicative of operating outside their means, nothing else. Get lean or get out.
We've got to put the lid on spending somewhere & somehow. 

Come on, you're smarter than that statement. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

When I read this yesterday, my opinion was that the State of Indiana is against EVs and this is just a way to discourage people to buy EVs.

It kind of is though. I mean people buy EVs to save money not because they are just awesome vehicles to drive. Until the Bolt they were small, compact, not much space and cost a good premium over a similarly sized gasoline car so to tax them more per year is only making it harder to justify the purchase. I know it is a really small amount(I think they said like $30 a year) but it's something and I don't know how far $30 in electricity will get you but it's probably a good distance.

[G. David Felt]

26 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It kind of is though. I mean people buy EVs to save money not because they are just awesome vehicles to drive. Until the Bolt they were small, compact, not much space and cost a good premium over a similarly sized gasoline car so to tax them more per year is only making it harder to justify the purchase. I know it is a really small amount(I think they said like $30 a year) but it's something and I don't know how far $30 in electricity will get you but it's probably a good distance.

In Washington State $24 dollars buys you equal to 1200 miles in the Chevy Bolt.

[ccap41]

17 minutes ago, dfelt said:

In Washington State $24 dollars buys you equal to 1200 miles in the Chevy Bolt.

Exactly my point.. That's roughly a month of driving taken away.

[G. David Felt]

52 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Exactly my point.. That's roughly a month of driving taken away.

While I think it sucks that they are truly penalizing the EV over gas. I think the best thing is to go to a mileage tax to be fair to everyone.

Even with this $150 a year charge, I still think EV owners will have much lower costs compared to gas.

Washington state has the same yearly registration fee for all auto's. Base is $80 and goes up depending on weight of the auto. Example is an HD F650 pickup is $384 a year to register here.

So Chevy Bolt is $80 yearly to register, then at $24 a month to charge, your looking at $288 a year for 14,400 miles driven. 

Year cost to drive the BOLT = $368

My Trailblazer is $165 a year to register, $400 a month average for gas. $80 twice a year for synthetic oil changes.

Yearly cost $5,125

Love my TB and will keep it, but excited about owning a BOLT!

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Come on, you're smarter than that statement. 

OK, here's the opposite of what I said, let's see if it makes more sense :

'When state/federal programs run out of money, borrowing from other state/federal programs is a sound practice. It's a viable first course of action, above & beyond focus on curtailing project schedules and/or reducing expenditures."

Doesn't sound smarter to me.

Are these Gov't agencies… "too big to fail"?

[G. David Felt]

21 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OK, here's the opposite of what I said, let's see if it makes more sense :

'When state/federal programs run out of money, borrowing from other state/federal programs is a sound practice. It's a viable first course of action, above & beyond focus on curtailing project schedules and/or reducing expenditures."

Doesn't sound smarter to me.

Are these Gov't agencies… "too big to fail"?

I agree, this is like what has come under fire in Washington state with new lotteries that are supposed to go to the schools and taxes on alternative energy for auto's and yet both go into a general fund and are wasted on other pet social services not all being good.

[Drew Dowdell]

25 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OK, here's the opposite of what I said, let's see if it makes more sense :

'When state/federal programs run out of money, borrowing from other state/federal programs is a sound practice. It's a viable first course of action, above & beyond focus on curtailing project schedules and/or reducing expenditures."

Doesn't sound smarter to me.

Are these Gov't agencies… "too big to fail"?

I *know* you are capable of bigger picture thinking than this.

We have infrastructure that has been around since the Roosevelt Administration.... sometimes even from the first Roosevelt Administration.  My grade school and high school were built during the Hoover Administration. Our infrastructure as a whole, not just roads and bridges, is way behind falling behind. 

A lot of this stuff is simply aging out of being useful.... some of it did that decades ago, but they'd slap another coat of paint and a few reinforcing rods on it and hope it holds another 5 years. 

We are barely even keeping up with the rate of failure.  All of that kicking the can and refusal to do the appropriate maintenance and replacement decades ago means the bill to fix things properly keeps getting larger and larger.  You can pay now or pay more later. 

Add to this the fact that most state governments and the federal government have refused to raise the gas tax for 20+ year AND falling revenue per wear mile caused by cars getting better fuel economy and of course things are under funded.

You're a contractor...  you know better than most that it is more expensive to do a cheap job multiple times than it is to do a good but expensive job once.  And cheap jobs are exactly what most of these states have been doing for the past 30 years.   Here in Pittsburgh, instead of replacing a crumbling bridge built in the 1920s, they built another fake bridge below it to catch the parts falling off the old bridge onto the highway below.  10 years later, they finally imploded the bridge and are in the process of building its replacement. 

It's insane that we had to build a bridge to catch a bridge because no one wanted to pay for a replacement that should have happened circa 1983, but that's what happened and is happening all over the country. 

And the longer you wait, the higher the replacement bill gets. 

[G. David Felt]

What Drew says is so true, we had a bridge that was built back in 1938, collapsed when a semi went over it. They are now finally building a new one and the traffic is diverted through a small town 20 miles out of the way. The people hurt and damage could have been avoided if they had just replaced the infrastructure in a reasonable period of time rather than kick the can down the road.

Sorry but free medical and school to illegals comes behind taking care of this country, future workers of America and the infrastructure to support our citizens.

As I have stated, road tax per mile for everyone is the best fair way to go.

[hyperv6]

The problem is most of what the government need to do can be paid for with money they are already collecting. But wasteful spending and in appropriate spending cost us all too much.

There are so many things they are paying out for is is insane. Not just over paying for planes and toilet seats but so much social programs, government studies and the like.

Why do so many scientist speak for global warming. Because as long as they say it is true they get government funding to say things that may be true and often some things that are not true.  I still love the polar bears stranded on the ice. They fooled many because many did not know they can swim and spend much time in the water. 

 My wife has a government job and it is a good job but so much waste it she gets sick of it. Not only do they waste money on programs but they also take the low bidder. Then when the job is sub part in 5 years they want more money to fix what the low bidder screwed up. They provide cars and housing to their director who makes around $200K a year and pay for all his travel. I am sorry but that is wrong. He can lease and pay for his house and car like anyone else. But he is appointed and we have no say in this. 

Same with the government unions as they can vote their pay raises. I would love to be able to vote my boss in with a promise of more money. 

As for electric cars the new saying is "Ass, Gas or Tax ....no one rides free". 

 

Note I blame both parties and independents. No side taken here as they all are guilty of not being fiscally responsible. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by hyperv6

[ccap41]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

Sorry but free medical and school to illegals comes behind taking care of this country, future workers of America and the infrastructure to support our citizens.

 

Couldn't eliminating free shet for people who aren't deserving potentially pay for said road work? 

[Suaviloquent]

Well, really the tax on EVs just needs to be the same tax per driven mile. Or a really intuitive, and hassle free way to deal with it is to keep a record of how many kilowatts the vehicle alone has consumed, say per year, and then levie a tax, the same as the yearly licence sticker renewal, or other fees. 

the problem is that using mpge as bar of efficiency is stupid to begin with, and mpg is the cornerstone of efficiency for gas vehicles, the big fat stupid number on the moroney that any driver can understand... And mpge, while intended to make understanding EV efficiency a topical issue revolving around comparing cars of all stripes....it is completely stupid. Most EVs have shown to be never able to achieve their mpge, or completely destroy that metric if the car is driven downhill more than uphill...

But that has to change. Right now the operating costs of EVs are really too good. The gas tax is well hidden. There is no price at the pump without the taxes built into the price, at then there is the basic state tax, or the provincial and federal HST here in Ontario Canada.

A tax on EVs seems like a backwards move, but right now EV's are only for those looking to adopt early, while the Tesla and Bolt (more rather the Bolt in terms of affordability) are tangible, thought out products, a tax being levied can be seen rather as a reduction of an incentive than an outright disincentive. You pay the tax at the pump every time, it's a disincentive, but the vehicle is sometimes the only way, a necessity for the commuter. The price elasticity of gas is weird, in the short run you cough up more dough, but in the long-run, and I would advocate SMART shoppers, do all the finance things like comparisons of gas costs given a certain price range, worst, best, most likely, and then also the discounting or accounting for inflation....as in a lot of stuff that is tedious....and car for the EV makes it another ballgame of its own.

Yeah, if every auto vehicle or truck, anything that is powered on its own and has wheels is twice as efficient or more than the best MPG available in a petro only powered one or even hybrid, then the road building and maintenance funds are DOOMED.

[Drew Dowdell]

59 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Couldn't eliminating free shet for people who aren't deserving potentially pay for said road work? 

The biggest welfare queens all have ticker symbols on the stock exchange.... I'm all in favor of elimination of free stuff and tax breaks for them. I'm tired of taxpayers having to subsidize Walmart's payroll, they can pay their workers a fair wage and benefits or get charged for the "free" services their employees use. 

[ccap41]

What's a fair wage to you?

also, there is only one position in walmart(unless it's changed in the 2 years I've been gone) that pays minimum and that's the cart pushers. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 1/13/2017 at 9:33 PM, ccap41 said:

What's a fair wage to you?

also, there is only one position in walmart(unless it's changed in the 2 years I've been gone) that pays minimum and that's the cart pushers. 

A wage that if 40 hours is worked, is a living wage. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A wage that if 40 hours is worked, is a living wage. 

That's so relative though.. because people don't NEED a lot of the shet they buy and pay for and then complain about not making enough money for food, car, housing. 

I also don't think minimum wage should be a wage in which people are content with. By keeping it lower than it "should" be it should make people want to better themselves and be better employees looking for promotions. 

Also, if you bump minimum wage up all the big corporations will do is increase prices and then that new minimum will be back at the same spot. McDonald's will increase prices, Walmart will increase prices then things will still be unaffordable for those people. 

[Drew Dowdell]

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That's so relative though.. because people don't NEED a lot of the shet they buy and pay for and then complain about not making enough money for food, car, housing. 

I also don't think minimum wage should be a wage in which people are content with. By keeping it lower than it "should" be it should make people want to better themselves and be better employees looking for promotions. 

Also, if you bump minimum wage up all the big corporations will do is increase prices and then that new minimum will be back at the same spot. McDonald's will increase prices, Walmart will increase prices then things will still be unaffordable for those people. 

Well, fortunately for all of us, you happen to be wrong.

There are a lot of countries that have living minimum wages and the price of a Big Mac is pretty much the same.   Would there be some price increases? yes. Would they be equivalent to the raises that people get who are at the minimum? No.

Furthermore, the champion of the minimum wage staunchly disagrees with you..... no offense, but I go with his advice over yours. 

Quote

“Do not let any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000.00 a day, who has been turning his employees over to the Government relief rolls in order to preserve his company’s undistributed reserves, tell you — using his stockholders’ money to pay the postage for his personal opinions — tell you that a wage of $11.00 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry.”

President Roosevelt relayed his support for the Fair Labor Standards Act  and the imposition of a minimum wage in a 1938 Fireside Chat. 

Or

Quote

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living." President Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 1933 - Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act

 

[hyperv6]

If you want to better your place in life you better yourself.

Mc Donalds is not a life time career and never was meant to be. 

I started off washing trucks and mowing lawns and worked my way up. I paid for my own school and let hard work move me on my way. I took some chances and in the end have done well. No scholarships, No government funding, no drugs, no not showing up just because I don't feel like it. No blowing everything I made on just anything.

Sorry one can get ahead in life with out legislation. As it is now we have people trying to get ahead by laws and not doing anything to help themselves.
Why is it we have people coming from the far east with nothing to their name since the 70's and now they own many successful businesses. They have the kids with the highest school grades, They do not look for or ask for hand outs. Most are not doing anything illegal.

The Asian community has a strong family tie and they hold true to hard work and perseverance. You do not hear them gripe because someone else makes more money. They do not expect a hand out. They are a very disciplined community that could teach the rest of us a good lesson.

Even now we pay more than min wage here and even then people do not show up. They come in with a number of Felonies and wonder why they can not get a job. I remember in collage a professor said back then if you just show up a company will love you and if you do anything you are golden as people do not like to show up and or work.

There are many jobs out there that can pay well. My Father in-law has yet to be replaced and his old company has tried to get him to un retire. He was making six figures as a welder. I have considered having him teach my son how to weld as he could make a lot of money doing it.

Time for people to start getting their $h! together and start making a better effort. I worked at 4 companies before I ever had to do a job interview as one job lead to another because of the work I did for the one company that led them to a job offer.

Luck also plays into this but often to be lucky you also need to apply your self and set yourself up to succeed. So many lose due to never putting themselves in a place to ever win. That cool tattoo may have been a neat idea on vacation but don't wonder why you never get that job. Don't take drugs and wonder why you can get hired. Don't stay home and play video games when you should be at work.

Americans anymore are lazy and many just want to play the victim.

Sorry you want to get ahead do not expect the government to do it all for you.

If you apply yourself and get some experience you should not be worried about making only min wage.

I wish I could count the weeks and years I worked 6 days a week when I was young but it lead to bigger and better things as the sixth day I worked on equipment for a company that gave me a better job when I got out of school. I turned down others that also had offers and I never applied for any. One was wanting to send me to machine school and I kind of wish I had taken that one.

[G. David Felt]

Minimum wage is needed but not as a so called Living Wage.

Nice that Roosevelt made those comments during the Great Depression.  Yet all you have to do is look at countries that have tried to push a living wage such as Spain, Greece, and so many others and the very high unemployment rate among young people. 

Minimum wage was about giving young people and people with no skills a chance to prove themselves, gain some trade skills and move up. Most companies use minimum wage as a chance for others to prove themselves and when the Gov raises the minimum wage, you then end up with INFLATION! 

I see nothing wrong with a $7.50 per hr minimum wage to start and prove your self. After all kids need jobs too and most are not in need of supporting themselves as they live at home.

[G. David Felt]

EV Tax - Back on topic, but I truly think a tax per mile is the best way to go even over a kWh used counter thing.

EV's just like any alternative fuel auto needs to pay it's fair share for road use. Tax per mile is a very fair way to go.

Example is the Fed rate of 18.4 cents per gallon at an average of 25 miles per gallon for auto's with 12,000 miles driven per year equals = ????

12,000 / 25 = 480 gallons of gas.

480 gallons x .184 = $88.32 tax dollars paid by a Petro driving owners to the feds each year.

Diesel is 24.4 cents per gallon.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform&year1=2014&year2=2015&vfuel=Diesel&mclass=Pickup+Trucks, Sport+Utility+Vehicles, Vans, Minivans&srchtyp=newDslTrks

Based on the gov figures which does not show diesel being that much better than gas. Yes VW TDI Fans I know you love your 50+ MPG auto's, but based on the Gov auto figures your looking at 27 MPG on average.

Diesel Owners on the same formula:

12,000 / 27 = 444 gallons of Diesel

444 x .244 = 108.44 tax dollars paid by a Diesel driving owner to the feds each year.

So why an equal amount to EV's. Using the Amount paid by Petro above, $88.32 / 12,000 = $.0074 cents per mile.

So Road Tax per mile makes the best sense to me. You have your auto checked at the time you renew your license and the miles driven is how much you have to pay the feds for Road tax.

My senior parents who barely drive 4000 miles would pay $29.60 a Year to the feds for Road tax.

Myself who drives about 15,000 miles would pay $111.00

This would then work out just like a gas tax, states would add on their own miles tax and collect and pay the portion to the feds and keep their own portion.

Tax per mile, The best solution for all!

[hyperv6]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Minimum wage is needed but not as a so called Living Wage.

Nice that Roosevelt made those comments during the Great Depression.  Yet all you have to do is look at countries that have tried to push a living wage such as Spain, Greece, and so many others and the very high unemployment rate among young people. 

Minimum wage was about giving young people and people with no skills a chance to prove themselves, gain some trade skills and move up. Most companies use minimum wage as a chance for others to prove themselves and when the Gov raises the minimum wage, you then end up with INFLATION! 

I see nothing wrong with a $7.50 per hr minimum wage to start and prove your self. After all kids need jobs too and most are not in ngh

You have this right. 

These jobs are for entry level and to gain experience. I did it and most before me did it. If you want to correct employment teach people better work habits and create better jobs in this country. 

My son is just getting to an age where he is prime for a entry level part time job while in school. It would teach him responsibility and give him experience so once he enters the work for for a career he will be better prepared. 

When I worked at the gas station it gave me responsibility. It taught me how to work with the public. How to answer the phone. How to work with people from the CEO from Firestone to the guy living under the bush at the exit ramp. I saw crime with attempted stabbings to movie stars [Morgan Fairchild]. It exposed me to other firms we worked for and it gave me a show case for my work habits and my abilities. It is a time I treasure and wish my son could experience. Yes in the summers I worked some weeks 60 hours but I made good money with over time and it paid for school and my running around. Hell I paid for 3 new vehicles cash while in Collage and several other muscle cars. I never made a car payment till I was 35 years old. 

This training ground is really losing its grip. Sorry if some folks aspire to want to say you want fries with that for the rest of their lives but the door to opportunity is there if you really want to open it and do the work to enter. 

We pay  more than Min wage for many of our entry level positions at work and we can not get people that can pass a drug test, have no felonies and are willing to show up. Also you do well at the entry level you can move on to bigger and better jobs as we like to promote from with in. That is what I did and now make a very good living in a very goods job. 

Today so many people are looking at others jealous of what they have and feel they deserve what they have without the investment of time and effort. The entitlement mentality is spreading. Even now look at some of the folks who lost in the last election. They blame everyone but themselves. They act as if they deserve be in charge but they are not. The last two election suffered the birther crap and this is even worse. 

We need to teach better ethics, better work habits and less entitlement. In the old days my ancestors were run out of England in 1650 from persecution. They came to America and had to work for all they had. They worked to settle the eastern part of PA and later moved to the south and were some of the original Volunteers that moved into what is TN and help create it as being a state. These people back then has to do things right as no one was going to bail their a$$ out. If they messed up they died at the hands of the natives, illness or starvation.

Heck back then a broken leg was a death sentence to many.  

Today we are greedy of what others have. We are lazy as a society and we are have high expectations with no real good work habits. 

Now I have no problem giving someone a hand to get started but it should be up to them and the rest of us should not be there to continue to support them because they refuse to help themselves. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

Promote from within?!  That's a laugh.

[ccap41]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Well, fortunately for all of us, you happen to be wrong.

There are a lot of countries that have living minimum wages and the price of a Big Mac is pretty much the same.   Would there be some price increases? yes. Would they be equivalent to the raises that people get who are at the minimum? No.

Furthermore, the champion of the minimum wage staunchly disagrees with you..... no offense, but I go with his advice over yours. 

Or

 

You honestly think companies will be just willing to accept less income, less profits, therefore lower stock prices? You'd be okay with stock prices falling due to lower income? Just to the laziest of people can get a break. Only the laziest are willing to accept a minimum wage position without any initiative to move up the ladder. 

3 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Sorry one can get ahead in life with out legislation. As it is now we have people trying to get ahead by laws and not doing anything to help themselves.
Why is it we have people coming from the far east with nothing to their name since the 70's and now they own many successful businesses. They have the kids with the highest school grades, They do not look for or ask for hand outs. Most are not doing anything illegal.

The GF's das did this. He moved from India after earning a couple bachelor degrees while working on a farm and came over with $200. He built his own jewelry business by learning everything on his own and they do very well for themselves. He worked his ass off for everything he has. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Quote

He moved from India after earning a couple bachelor degrees

and no crippling debt?  How unamerican!

Oh he's not born American? That's why he's got two bachelors degrees without debt.