December 2016: General Motors Co.

[William Maley]

Chevrolet and GM Lead U.S. Retail Sales and Share Gains in 2016

• U.S. industry sets new sales record
• 2016 GM U.S. retail market share grew 0.5 points
• 2016 GM U.S. retail sales up nearly 2 percent
• Chevrolet December U.S. retail sales up 8 percent
• December Commercial sales up to highest level since 2007

DETROIT — General Motors (NYSE: GM) sold 249,983 vehicles in December to individual or “retail” customers in the U.S., up more than 3 percent from last year. Based on initial estimates, GM was the fastest growing full-line automaker in December and in 2016, led by strong retail sales gains at Chevrolet. GM turned in its best U.S. December retail sales performance since 2007.

Chevrolet’s December retail sales jumped by 8 percent, keeping Chevrolet the industry’s fastest-growing brand. Chevrolet posted its best December retail sales performance since 2005 and its best calendar year retail performance since 2006. 

Based on initial estimates, GM’s December U.S. retail market share rose 0.3 points to 17.6 percent. GM has gained retail market share in 18 of the past 21 months. For the year, GM gained 0.5 points of retail market share, pushing retail market share to 16.8 percent. For 2016, GM was the U.S. retail industry’s fastest-growing manufacturer.

Chevrolet gained an estimated 0.7 points of U.S. retail market share in December to 11.5 percent.

GM’s total U.S. sales in December were 319,108, up 10 percent from last year. In December, GM’s total U.S. market share was up 1.5 points to 18.8 percent. GM’s December U.S. Commercial sales were up more than 1 percent to the highest levels since 2007, reflecting a growing U.S. economy.

“We finished 2016 with a strong December, reflecting the continued strength of GM’s U.S. retail and commercial businesses,” said Kurt McNeil, GM’s vice president of U.S. Sales Operations. “We begin 2017 well positioned to continue growing our U.S. retail business, driven by all-new products like the Chevrolet Equinox and Traverse being launched into key, growing U.S. market segments.” 

For 2016, GM’s U.S. retail sales were up nearly 2 percent, compared to last year. GM gained 0.5 points of U.S. retail market share, the largest retail share gain of any automaker. For the year, Chevrolet U.S. retail sales were up more than 3 percent and the brand’s retail share has grown 0.5 points to 11.2 percent. Chevrolet continues to be the U.S. automotive industry’s fastest-growing brand, gaining nearly 1 point of retail market share in the past two years.

Buick’s U.S. retail sales grew by nearly 5 percent in 2016, led by the brand’s crossovers, the Encore and Envision. In 2016, Buick gained 0.1 points of U.S. retail share.

GM continues to benefit from the ongoing strength of the U.S. economy and growing U.S. retail demand for its products.

“Key economic indicators, especially consumer confidence, continue to reflect optimism about the U.S. economy and strong customer demand continues to drive a very healthy U.S. auto industry,” said Mustafa Mohatarem, GM’s chief economist. “We believe the U.S. auto industry remains well-positioned for sales to continue at or near record levels in 2017.”

December 2016 Retail Sales and Business Highlights vs. December 2015 (except as noted)

Chevrolet

• Colorado was up 20 percent.
• Trax, Equinox and Traverse were up 43 percent, 38 percent and 22 percent, respectively.
• Spark, Impala, Volt, Sonic, Corvette and Malibu were up 210 percent, 95 percent, 76 percent, 50 percent, 10 percent and 6 percent, respectively.
• Volt had its best month and year ever.
• Malibu had its best calendar year sales since 1980.
• Impala had its best December since 2008
• Equinox had its best month ever.
• Traverse had its best December and year ever.
• Colorado had it best December since 2004.

GMC

• GMC’s December ATPs reached a December record of $45,209 and a calendar year record of $43,088.
• Acadia, Yukon and Yukon XL were up 31 percent, 2 percent and 2 percent, respectively.
• Canyon was up 25 percent and had its best December and year ever.
• Denali penetration in December was nearly 30 percent, led by Yukon and Yukon XL at 61 percent and 62 percent, respectively.

Buick

• Buick had its best year since 2005.
• Encore was up 16 percent.
• Buick dealers sold 3,074 Envisions.

Cadillac

• Escalade was up 8 percent.
• Escalade had its best month since December 2007.
• XT5 had its best month since launch with significantly higher ATPs than its predecessor.
• December ATPs were $56,949, the highest monthly ATP ever.

Average Transaction Prices (ATP)/Incentives (based on JD Power PIN estimates through 12/25/16)

• GM’s ATPs, which reflect retail transaction prices after sales incentives, were $36,386 in December, more than $4,000 above the industry average and up $740 from last month. 
• For the year, GM ATPs were $35,371, more than $4,260 above the industry average and up $720 over the 2015 average.
• In December, GM’s incentive spending as a percent of ATP was 13.0 percent, down compared to last month.
• For the year, GM’s incentive spending as a percent of ATP was 11.9 percent, well below the incentive spending of its domestic competitors and many of its global competitors.

Fleet and Commercial

• December daily rental sales were up, but finished 2016 down nearly 74,000 vehicles or 18 percent compared to 2015.
• GM’s daily rental sales in 2016 were 10.7 percent of total GM sales.
• Malibu Commercial deliveries were up 35 percent for the month, large van Commercial deliveries were up 7 percent and large pick-up Commercial deliveries were up 4 percent.
• Federal government sales were up 3 percent for the calendar year.

Industry Sales

• GM estimates that the seasonally adjusted annual selling rate (SAAR) for light vehicles in December was approximately 18.2 million units. On a calendar year-to-date basis, GM estimates the light-vehicle industry was 17.5 million units, a new U.S. calendar year record.

[Cmicasa the Great]

The slightly higher priced, similarly equipped, same configuration but better looking XTS continues to take it to the Continental, despite being 5 years old. Again.. with December ATPs at $57,000 the CT6 is certainly doing its job. Gotta wonder what Cadillac would be posting if it had larger vehicles in the same categories as Benz.

Anyone else catch the fact that Cadillac's lone XT5 outsold the MKX, MKT, and MKC combined. Cadillac's YOY sales drop is completely to due with the CTS and ATS losing ground due to the demand up on the CUV segment. GM really is stupid for not having or rebadging something for the time being. I still say that the SRX.. restyled and updated smaller would have been an easy hold-over.

 

Camaro obviously lost the yearly sales run, but came within 64 units of the Mustang in Dec., with the Vette getting a nice bump probably from the GS being on the lots. GM moved 942K Pick-Ups. WOW. And again... I will continue to point out that the GM strategy of Malibu-Impala vs Fusion-Taurus is a win for GM

 

[ccap41]

XTS is the only thing in the Cadillac house that looks like doggy doo doo. Everything else looks great.

Taurus also b-lows. It's gotta be worst in class in every category..

Edited January 4, 2017 by ccap41

[cp-the-nerd]

Impressive finish for the year, great showing for Chevy's sedans. Now I just want to see them get inventory under control over the next couple months.

[Stew]

I kinda like the XTS V-Sport hehe.  Of course I would MUCH rather be able to et the turbo 3.6/AWD  in the IMHO much better looking 14+ Impala or 17 Lacrosse. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

14 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

XTS is the only thing in the Cadillac house that looks like doggy doo doo. Everything else looks great.

Taurus also b-lows. It's gotta be worst in class in every category..

Then Doggy Doo Doo must look pretty damn great cause this SOB is damn nice looking.. especially when compared to the Continental. Again.. not opinion.. just fact

 

 

 

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Here is a legit question... if Acura sold 276 NSXs.. why wouldn't Cadillac be able to sell 500 rebodied Z06s?

[ccap41]

38 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Then Doggy Doo Doo must look pretty damn great cause this SOB is damn nice looking.. especially when compared to the Continental. Again.. not opinion.. just fact

Quoting like this so I don't have to look at it again.. lol

Oh looks are absolutely opinion-based!

I easily think Cadillac could rebadge the Vette and easily sell 1000 in a year still. As long as they rebadge it in a clean and well executed manner, no probby at all.

38 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Then Doggy Doo Doo must look pretty damn great cause this SOB is damn nice looking.. especially when compared to the Continental. Again.. not opinion.. just fact

Quoting like this so I don't have to look at it again.. lol

Oh looks are absolutely opinion-based!

I easily think Cadillac could rebadge the Vette and easily sell 1000 in a year still. As long as they rebadge it in a clean and well executed manner, no probby at all.

[cp-the-nerd]

You sound like you're making a case for Cadillac badge jobs, and it's just not good for the brand. Besides, the Corvette's current platform isn't Cadillac worthy. It's an engineering compromise because they didn't have money for an all new chassis during C7 R&D.

A Cadillac version would weigh as much as the ATS-V coupe and be riding on leaf springs for Christ's sake.

[ccap41]

Oh I do not think it is a good idea but I think they could still sell less than 100 a month across the US.

[Cmicasa the Great]

24 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

You sound like you're making a case for Cadillac badge jobs, and it's just not good for the brand. Besides, the Corvette's current platform isn't Cadillac worthy. It's an engineering compromise because they didn't have money for an all new chassis during C7 R&D.

A Cadillac version would weigh as much as the ATS-V coupe and be riding on leaf springs for Christ's sake.

For a first generation it wouldn't matter one bit. The Cadillac "Z06" would still be a performance winner in C7 form. The C7 is as advanced as almost anything going. Your statement makes even less sense considering I was talking about the C8. Regardless.. I will now defend the C7.. and say that even if they went to the C7 as a basis.... they would have no issue at all maintaining a great deal of the performance of the donor even after adding luxurious items. Even with a few ticks less in times.. it would still be a car that would run easily with current Benz Sports Verts not to mention the FType from Jag and upcoming Lexus SC. That's their market. The Corvette is the brawler with a  bunch of  finesse.. the Caddy would be the Finesse with a bunch of brawl

 

Also.. the C7 chassis is much more advanced than the C6s.. different in a great many ways. There was no compromise

[hyperv6]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Here is a legit question... if Acura sold 276 NSXs.. why wouldn't Cadillac be able to sell 500 rebodied Z06s?

For the same reason you can not sell a Cavalier rebadged as a Cadillac.

We tried that before and the results were only good on the resale market where my buddy got a $100K low mile XLRV for just over $30K.

The time money and man power would be better suited to getting the sedans where they need to be and the Cross Overs out they have planned.

Cadillac needs to address their core products before they worry about a lost leader for the third time.

 

Let them get their house in order and then look to the C8 not just rebodied but rebooted to a Cadillac in the same vein as Lambo is changed to an Audi.

Revisit this in 2025.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by hyperv6

[Stew]

1.  I think the Continental is a MUCH better looking car than the XTS (bathroom fixture door handles not withstanding).  but i don't think the XTS is really ugly as much as awkward and I wouldn't kick out a V-Sport. 

 

2.  MAYBE the new mid-engine design would make a sweet Hybrid AWD mid-engine rocketship Cadillac Supercar, but I don't think using the Current f/r  C7 would work all that well. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Stew

[smk4565]

Continental looks like a mid-size Kia.  It is bland and forgettable.

Buick and Cadillac are becoming SUV brands, but Cadillac doesn't have enough crossovers.  The sedans at both brands are in the tank, I don't think Buick will ever get sedan sales back, LaCrosse is the only car they need for the "traditional" Buick buyer.  The crossovers across the board are going gang busters, I feel like the government could put a 20% sales tax on all crossovers and sales wouldn't drop one bit.

[ehaase]

I saw a Continental last week at the Ford dealer.  It had no more presence than a Camry. It isn't wide enough.  I am sure it is much more pleasant to drive with the Ecoboost V6's. 

I don't understand why Buick will sell the Insignia here again as a Regal. 

If it were up to me, Cadillac would drop the ATS and CTS, redesign the XTS, and have the CT6 and XTS replacement as its sedans, with 3 crossovers and the Escalade. 

 

 

[ccap41]

24 minutes ago, ehaase said:

I saw a Continental last week at the Ford dealer.  It had no more presence than a Camry. It isn't wide enough.  I am sure it is much more pleasant to drive with the Ecoboost V6's. 

I don't understand why Buick will sell the Insignia here again as a Regal. 

If it were up to me, Cadillac would drop the ATS and CTS, redesign the XTS, and have the CT6 and XTS replacement as its sedans, with 3 crossovers and the Escalade. 

 

 

I hate everything about what you just said.

Drop the ATS and CTS?!?! Keep the XTS(nothing actually wrong with it, I just don't think it fits where Cadillac is going). Continental has the same presence as a Camry?!?!? You're Drunk.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac needs the ATS, but it needs a major refresh

[Cmicasa the Great]

23 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

For the same reason you can not sell a Cavalier rebadged as a Cadillac.

We tried that before and the results were only good on the resale market where my buddy got a $100K low mile XLRV for just over $30K.

The time money and man power would be better suited to getting the sedans where they need to be and the Cross Overs out they have planned.

Cadillac needs to address their core products before they worry about a lost leader for the third time.

 

Let them get their house in order and then look to the C8 not just rebodied but rebooted to a Cadillac in the same vein as Lambo is changed to an Audi.

Revisit this in 2025.

 

Come on Dude..   The Cavalier reference is not only old,  but ridiculous.  The Corvette is in no way a car that is beneath Cadillac.. outside of the dealerships that it's sold out of daily.  Hell..  at this point same argument could be made for the Camaro..  Properly executed a new XLR using C7 bones let alone C8 would be perfect as well as necessary.  Cadillac literally has just two less Cuvs than Lexus.  Easily remedied.  

[Drew Dowdell]

What the heck is wrong with the Corvette platform? It's the king of the game for the price and a great baseline to start a Cadillac from. 

[TaurusSHO]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I hate everything about what you just said.

Drop the ATS and CTS?!?! Keep the XTS(nothing actually wrong with it, I just don't think it fits where Cadillac is going). Continental has the same presence as a Camry?!?!? You're Drunk.

 

And as far as not being wide enough, it's four inches wider than the CT6 and 5 inches wider than the XTS.

[ccap41]

25 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

And as far as not being wide enough, it's four inches wider than the CT6 and 5 inches wider than the XTS.

Definitely!

And the Continental is 11 inches longer with an 8.6 inch longer wheelbase along with being about 4 inches wider as well..than a Camry..

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What the heck is wrong with the Corvette platform? It's the king of the game for the price and a great baseline to start a Cadillac from. 

My point. They act like the Corvette is sitting on top of BK platform from Hyundai's Genesis Coupe. We are talking about a car that on the low end still sells for $55K and already reaches to $100K.. when the ZR1 hits I would think up to $135K. Not only that the chassis is as advanced as anything costing $300K. What bewilders me is that after the C7.. hell C6.. people still ALLOW themselves to believe that buying a Ferrari/Lambo etc is a step up in performance outside of the occasional model with higher HP and AWD

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Continental looks like a mid-size Kia.  It is bland and forgettable.

 

Never would I have thought of doing it.. but I agree with this statement

[Cmicasa the Great]

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I hate everything about what you just said.

Drop the ATS and CTS?!?! Keep the XTS(nothing actually wrong with it, I just don't think it fits where Cadillac is going). Continental has the same presence as a Camry?!?!? You're Drunk.

 

Then he's drunk off water.. because the other day a Continental only got my attention only after an Accord that was in front of it rolled by.. and even then I found myself thinking " wow... as much as I hate Japanese products... that Honda looks more upscale than the new Lincoln." 

No way I would have said that about either of these two

 

[Drew Dowdell]

I guess I'm the only one who likes the Continental, XTS, and CT6 in no particular order.

[hyperv6]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What the heck is wrong with the Corvette platform? It's the king of the game for the price and a great baseline to start a Cadillac from. 

Is this a quote from when they started the XLR?

[hyperv6]

5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Come on Dude..   The Cavalier reference is not only old,  but ridiculous.  The Corvette is in no way a car that is beneath Cadillac.. outside of the dealerships that it's sold out of daily.  Hell..  at this point same argument could be made for the Camaro..  Properly executed a new XLR using C7 bones let alone C8 would be perfect as well as necessary.  Cadillac literally has just two less Cuvs than Lexus.  Easily remedied.  

No but the Corvette is in no way a car that is a Cadillac. 

Cadillac did the last XLR pretty well. It was not a bad car. They even went to lengths with the engine and even supercharged it. My buddy has a V and it is a sweet car. But for what it cost and for what the Corvette cost it was just not worth the money at that point nor now. 

You would find so few buyers for a Cadillac over $100K right now that it is just silly to even consider it at this point. Cadillac can not move anything but two SUV models and you want to move them to a low production over priced Corvette again? That is just insane and not sound business.

Lets face it you have one more shot at a Cadillac sports car and if you F it up that is strike three.

Now you go in and fix the CTS, ATS, CT6 and even the XT5. You Replace the XTS if sales remain steady with a newer better model on a newer platform. Then you add in 2-3 SUV models where they all are right for the segment and begin to recover sales then you should consider a high end sports car. 

Now if  you would like a sports car in the short term lets look at the Alpha and move to do a small GT sports car that would slot in around $50K entry price use a Turbo 4 and Turbo V6 as na option. Make it a drop top that could compete with the BMW roadsters. People would be much more willing to take a change on something like this. You would be using engines and platform that is already in place. Take a Camaro Convertible narrow it and shorten it. 

Now as JDN has pointed out the Mid Engine would make a fun car to so but not till 2025> By then you would have the core product settled and the Corvette well place on the market. 

As for the Corvette you have to come to the realization Chevy is not going to let it go. They have broken rules, They have killed other cars in other divisions etc to protect the car. That has not changed now will it at least in North America. You have a better chance GM would buy back all the dealers and selling direct first and I am not holding my breath on that one. 

Don't get me wrong you have a cool dream and I like it but the reality is that is only a dream and just not going to work in the real world of corporations and sales. 

Cadillac has a lot of reputation to repair before many people will trust them for a sports car at a high price. 

If you pulled the trigger on this now you would waste money that could be used for better things at Cadillac and end up with a car for 2-3 years before it is killed again. Then you will find the few that were sold at six figures on used lots for $30K like my buddies XLRv

You find a way to sell the CTS and ATS at larger increasing numbers first then you have a shot here. 

As it is performance cars are becoming a hard sell 2 seat and coupes have been declining. 

To sum it up I like your dream but I just see no way in hell it could be successful at this point and time when Cadillac has much bigger fish to fry. 

FYI it also would do better when Cadillac move back to a global market as it would take a low volume car and better spread the volume globally for a much better chance of survival. 

 

41 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I guess I'm the only one who likes the Continental, XTS, and CT6 in no particular order.

Might be the only one who likes all three. 

I am ok at the CT6. 

[Drew Dowdell]

25 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

Is this a quote from when they started the XLR?

I dunno... but the current Vette platform is fantastic and would make an excellent basis for a new XLR with a proper Cadillac level interior in it. 

[oldshurst442]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎04 at 1:29 PM, Cmicasa the Great said:

Here is a legit question... if Acura sold 276 NSXs.. why wouldn't Cadillac be able to sell 500 rebodied Z06s?

Cadillac cant...

Why?

1st reason:

 

2nd reason:

As in Honda/Acura has a lock in sports car racing branding...

NSX and VTEC are synonymous with modern day sports car racing tech...

To boot, there is a 3rd reason that involves the same logic in branding:

SH-AWD

A whole decade of VTEC kicking in with Integras and NSXs...and...HALDEX aint exactly known with ricer fanboys like SH-AWD is...

Yes, it was an eternity ago when that was happening, unfortunately for Cadillac, nothing has happened for them in this time frame...

 

V Series Cadillacs are getting real traction in changing people's perception about Cadillacs, unfortunately not too many people put speed, sports cars and Cadillacs together in the same breath...

Argue all you want with me, call me names....but that is the truth. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎04 at 1:55 PM, cp-the-nerd said:

You sound like you're making a case for Cadillac badge jobs, and it's just not good for the brand. Besides, the Corvette's current platform isn't Cadillac worthy. It's an engineering compromise because they didn't have money for an all new chassis during C7 R&D.

A Cadillac version would weigh as much as the ATS-V coupe and be riding on leaf springs for Christ's sake.

This...

That would be another reason...

[oldshurst442]

Correct me if Im wrong...

But isnt the C7 platform just a heavily heavily revised C5 platform that was brand new in...1997...

Sure it is a GREAT platform...with it being all aluminum thanx to the C6 ZO6 and all with some components having carbon fibre rather than fibreglass...

There are far too many 'not ideal' circumstances for Cadillac to sell successfully an exotic 2 door coupe and roadster supercar...

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

Is this a quote from when they started the XLR?

Even tho the XLR was on C5 platform.. it wasn't that the platform was inferior to competition from the Benz SL, Jag XK, or Lexus SC.. in fact.. the last two.. give me an effin break..If U have ever driven either the Jag  U would have to question WHY THE HELL it gets a pass 

The Cadillac XLR was a failure because of the TIME that GM put it out and the necessary investment dollars that were needed to make it work were not available due to trying to keep the lights on.. even as far back 2004. Those things on top of the their choices of engines not being powerful enough to keep up across the board with the Benz SL and BMW 6Series. They took a great deal of the dynamics of the C5 and left the one thing that may have save the XLR.. the LS1 as a base engine at launch. But its not that the Northstar and S/C Northstar were not great when the XLR debuted.. they were.. its just that Cadillac never moved along with those engines, particularly due to the lack of money in bringing out the promised (and I bet first iteration of the upcoming DOHC V8) ULTRA Engine family. This allowed the competition to improve.. and be better. All that being said.. the part about "time" refers to 2005-2009 when the C6 was now out.. (XLR was still sitting on C5 platform) with an LS2 and then an LS3.. LS7 and LS9.. hell even the debut of the CTS-V with the 556HP LSA while the last XLR-V still had the 443HP SC Northstar in it. Not to mention that while the materials of the interior were top notch.. the layout was somewhat stark.. and the angular styling, even on the inside, was off putting to those rejecting no fluid designs.  Again.. this attributed to the death of the car literally as it was just trying to establish itself as a luxury roadster. Bottom line is that if the boys at GM had of put as much into the CADILLAC XLR as they did the CHEVY Corvette... the XLR would still be here today.

[hyperv6]

Here is the poblem.

You need to make a new XLR a better car than the Corvette. Got that!

Now you need change many things to set this car apparat from the Corvette. Yes the C7 is great but to not move it away from the Corvette would leave you with a car that would suffer the same fate as the past car. Lower volumes Ned the Cadillsc name would drive the price up. 

Then you have a C8 coming to take even more wind out of the sail. 

To build this car and not make it better than the Vette on the same platform  would end the same as before. You also realize you can not just plop a LT4 in this one either and why because it already is in a Vette that would sell for less. 

The problem is the Vette is a car as good as what you can build and cheaper than what a Cadillac can offer.

Funding was an issue but in the XLR it was not near the problem it was with other models.

More power would not have saved the car either. 

Also  Cadillac is not yet worthy of a high end sports car. Come back one they figure out how to sell the cars they are best known for first before you jump into the deep end of the pool. 

Like I stated take a Alpha and make a cheaper sports model and use it to show people what you can do before you expect them to commit six figures to an unproven car from a company that has never made a world class sports car to date.

i love GM but if had the money the Corvette would get my money first at $100k before any Cadillac.

The Formula  you present is 90% what they did last time and so far you have given no clear path that this plan would succeed.

Cadillac needs to learn to walk again before they learn to run.

Your biggest issue is Cadillac really does not have enough image recovered to pull this off yet. 

 Make the cheaper GT roadster and folk may just give a try just for the hell of it if you make it compelling enough. Then they may better agree to shell out more than twice this once you earn their trust. 

I like Cadillac but I do not trust them on six figure cars yet.

Edited January 6, 2017 by hyperv6

[Cmicasa the Great]

8 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Here is the poblem.

You need to make a new XLR a better car than the Corvette. Got that!

Now you need change many things to set this car apparat from the Corvette. Yes the C7 is great but to not move it away from the Corvette would leave you with a car that would suffer the same fate as the past car. Lower volumes Ned the Cadillsc name would drive the price up. 

Then you have a C8 coming to take even more wind out of the sail. 

To build this car and not make it better than the Vette on the same platform  would end the same as before. You also realize you can not just plop a LT4 in this one either and why because it already is in a Vette that would sell for less. 

The problem is the Vette is a car as good as what you can build and cheaper than what a Cadillac can offer.

Funding was an issue but in the XLR it was not near the problem it was with other models.

More power would not have saved the car either. 

Also  Cadillac is not yet worthy of a high end sports car. Come back one they figure out how to sell the cars they are best known for first before you jump into the deep end of the pool. 

Like I stated take a Alpha and make a cheaper sports model and use it to show people what you can do before you expect them to commit six figures to an unproven car from a company that has never made a world class sports car to date.

i love GM but if had the money the Corvette would get my money first at $100k before any Cadillac.

The Formula  you present is 90% what they did last time and so far you have given no clear path that this plan would succeed.

Cadillac needs to learn to walk again before they learn to run.

Your biggest issue is Cadillac really does not have enough image recovered to pull this off yet. 

 Make the cheaper GT roadster and folk may just give a try just for the hell of it if you make it compelling enough. Then they may better agree to shell out more than twice this once you earn their trust. 

I like Cadillac but I do not trust them on six figure cars yet.

There is no disputing that the Cadillac version would have to be a better car.. but in truth.. it would not necessarily have to be a more powerful or faster one. See the Camaro ZL1 vs CTS-V, same platform, same engine.. but the Cadillac is pulling double duty.. as a helluva luxury car.. plush and prim.. while with the push of a button.. one.. then two times.. become a track monster. 

Same exact transformation for the new XLR. Here's the question.. are we talking an SL competitor.. or an AMG GT competitor? Well personally I would go for both, via trims. The XLR (XL8 and VSport) would be the SL Competitor.. basically redone Grand Sport and Z06, while off the cuff I'd offer an XL-V .. basically the ZR1 competitor. Of course this is 2017.. and the C8 will probably be here in 2019.. so U do this on the C8 platform.. but only because of time not because the C7 isn't up to snuff. 

The timing again would allow for the VSeries program to continue to establish Caddy's power cred. U wanna talk business sense, but then talk about essentially redesigning or creating an entire platform for the purpose of exclusivity, to distance it from an already "exclusive" platform (honestly... 30K (Vette 2016) sales is pretty exclusive for a singular platform) and fooling a few fools who read magazines and still latch hold of the BS idea that "a LT1 and LT4 are truck engines." Tell it to the millions who have shelled out boooku dollars for a shiny new Cadillac Tahoe/Suburban or even GMC Tahoe/Suburban. These vehicles are almost identical. I kno some (non-enthusiasts) owners of XLRs who to this day don't associate their car with the Vette. I won't even get into the fact that we have a new DOHC engine coming from Cadillac as, supposedly Vette. 

I love Cadillac.. my neighbor and several colleagues love Cadillac.. and we all trusted Cadillac with six figure car and SUVs.. happily I might add.

[hyperv6]

45 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

There is no disputing that the Cadillac version would have to be a better car.. but in truth.. it would not necessarily have to be a more powerful or faster one. See the Camaro ZL1 vs CTS-V, same platform, same engine.. but the Cadillac is pulling double duty.. as a helluva luxury car.. plush and prim.. while with the push of a button.. one.. then two times.. become a track monster. 

Same exact transformation for the new XLR. Here's the question.. are we talking an SL competitor.. or an AMG GT competitor? Well personally I would go for both, via trims. The XLR (XL8 and VSport) would be the SL Competitor.. basically redone Grand Sport and Z06, while off the cuff I'd offer an XL-V .. basically the ZR1 competitor. Of course this is 2017.. and the C8 will probably be here in 2019.. so U do this on the C8 platform.. but only because of time not because the C7 isn't up to snuff. 

The timing again would allow for the VSeries program to continue to establish Caddy's power cred. U wanna talk business sense, but then talk about essentially redesigning or creating an entire platform for the purpose of exclusivity, to distance it from an already "exclusive" platform (honestly... 30K (Vette 2016) sales is pretty exclusive for a singular platform) and fooling a few fools who read magazines and still latch hold of the BS idea that "a LT1 and LT4 are truck engines." Tell it to the millions who have shelled out boooku dollars for a shiny new Cadillac Tahoe/Suburban or even GMC Tahoe/Suburban. These vehicles are almost identical. I kno some (non-enthusiasts) owners of XLRs who to this day don't associate their car with the Vette. I won't even get into the fact that we have a new DOHC engine coming from Cadillac as, supposedly Vette. 

I love Cadillac.. my neighbor and several colleagues love Cadillac.. and we all trusted Cadillac with six figure car and SUVs.. happily I might add.

I am not opposed to doing a sports car when the time is right. But if you presented this as a business case to GM they would toss you out of the room.

Wrong car at the wrong time done in the wrong way.

Factor in the reality of what Cadillac is spending at this point to fix their core products you know the ones that should be generating profits or more profits. Also factor in the man power to pull this off is already allocated to other programs. Cadillac is in transformation now to have people who only design and build Cadillac do their cars. No more work on a Malibu on Monday and work on a ATs by Friday engineers.

JDN has made it clear a C8 would be a fun car to do but they have little time or money for it till 2025. By then the core product should be transformed to where he wants it and then they can look for project to do just for fun and by then they may have recovered enough image to earn the trust of some one willing to put six figures down on a car that may go bust in 3 years.

Note with all that is going on they would never get the car right. They need to budget it to where there is no compromises. That can not be done near term. They also will not let the Corvette team do this car as the whole point is to have a group that make Cadillac's and only Cadillac's. Besides Tadge really has his hands full with his own line.

The long and short is this is not happening short term and there are so many legitimate reasons to prove this point.

Besides one sports car is not going to save Cadillac or add much value to any of their other product till they are were they need to be. To think other wise is a pipe dream.

This is big picture stuff. It is not about drawing lines from platforms to brands. You have to consider all that is going on and what money is already being spent. Also you have to consider that few people will come to this car. Is it worth a couple billion to just get a couple pages in Motor Trend and for them to say it is a nice car but comes up short in execution.

The bottom line is you do not fix the sedans and add the cross overs you will never gain any traction at Cadillac. They do not have to be nor want to be a super high volume brand but they do need to see growth. They can not move down as we already have Buick in that void.

Finally you have one more sports car come and go in less than 5 years and you will not see one again at Cadillac for a long time. They really have one more shot and it has to be done right at the right time and place in their progression. As of now this is not  priority and there is much more important business to attend to and to be funded.

[oldshurst442]

Wow...

Bunch of little quotes everywhere that I always say...

Anyhoo...

Ill make sure I keep on plugging my message over and over again...

Cadillac...

It does not have a loyal following for anything they sell, minus the Escalade. And Cadillac these days rely heavily on the Escalade to have an image...the rest of the sedan line-up is awesome, but people it seems dont want and lust over those products...yet.

If they are not careful with the Escalade, they will lose that too. What I mean by that, its because Rolls Royce, Bentley and Jaguar all offer real high end SUVs to give Escalade another 3 competitors to fight off in addition to M-B and BMW and everything else in between.

Let us not forget the Lincoln Navigator...its a-coming...and in an SUV crazy world, especially when the Navigator still has mojo left in her, and Im willing to bet all my estate on it, Lincoln will absolutely do the 'Gator right...

This means the Escalade may need to go higher in luxury, if not as to not alienate its current market share, it may need a more luxurious brother to compliment it. The Escalade needs another SUV brother to compliment it on the lower end of the scale. The XT5 plus another model.

The CT6 is great. But the CTS and the ATS needs to be aligned....yeah yeah...that is just around the corner...but we are not there yet are we? Yet we are talking about an exotic supercar for Cadillac..

Cadillac needs electric drivetrains that rival Tesla's. Not Chevrolet's. The Chevrolet Bolt, sure. But better range and on a bigger car...

Then there is the issue of image.

Cadillac has a lot of work to do in convincing people to buy their vehicles.

Cadillac is getting great traction...but nowhere near the amount to convince people to buy a 150 000 dollar supercar.

Lets talk about drivetrain gain...

The internal combustion engine is a relic of the past. That is how the young folk see that...

Going forward, a supercar will be required to be at a minimum...a hybrid...

We talked about the NSX...guess what? Its a technological tour de force...and its a hybrid...

We may laugh at Acura for many reasons for the 2nd generation NSX...but goddammit...they did it right!!!

Crucify me for what Im gonna say...I dont care...but the 2nd generation NSX is more advanced than the C7 Corvette...

The only reason one COULD crucify me for that statement, its because we are talking about a Corvette...problem is that a Corvette has that much branding to garner all that respect it deserves...

Chez Cadillac though... not so much.

C8 Vette as a Cadilac?

Nope...not yet...

The development dollars required to make a C8 platform into a Cadillac requires a lot of effort and time and money...

Ill give you an example...

Paint job...

A Corvette is a fantastic machine...punches waaaaaay above its price point...

Its paint job sucks... especially for the amount of money GM is charging you to buy one...

That is not even a concern though as

1. Its a Chevy

2. Its a Corvette.

Try that in a Cadillac...

A supercar on that level for Cadiilac will DEFINETLY need Rolls Royce 15 gazillion layers of clearcoat and polishing etc...

All that money needed to GET ALL THOSE PESKY HIGH END TOP TIER LEVELS OF QUALITY AND LUXURY AND DETAILS will be needed to be addresses...

Cadillac simply is not there at all for that...

Let Cadillac address the proper products that are needed now, the proper dealership network and service, the proper issues first...

 

Then there is the racing.

Cadillac needs to win first.

The Corvette is in its way for that, let alone Ferrari and Porsche and Mercedes Benz and everybody else...

The NSX had VTEC kicking in...that is how the NSX got away with it.

Cadillac doesnt have the luxury of a powerful meme like that...

I say...let the Corvette get GM's R&D money to continue to dominate...let Cadillac get the R&D money it deserves to reach higher levels and we will see what the future holds in 2025...

 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I guess I'm the only one who likes the Continental, XTS, and CT6 in no particular order.

Yes. lol

I love 2 out of those 3! I just hate everything about the XTS..and I know it's irrational but I've just never liked it and I think because everything else Cadillac makes is so awesome to me that this is just an oddball. Whereas nothing Lincoln makes is super awesome and the Continental is the oddball out in a good way.

[Cmicasa the Great]

35 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

I am not opposed to doing a sports car when the time is right. But if you presented this as a business case to GM they would toss you out of the room.

Wrong car at the wrong time done in the wrong way.

Factor in the reality of what Cadillac is spending at this point to fix their core products you know the ones that should be generating profits or more profits. Also factor in the man power to pull this off is already allocated to other programs. Cadillac is in transformation now to have people who only design and build Cadillac do their cars. No more work on a Malibu on Monday and work on a ATs by Friday engineers.

JDN has made it clear a C8 would be a fun car to do but they have little time or money for it till 2025. By then the core product should be transformed to where he wants it and then they can look for project to do just for fun and by then they may have recovered enough image to earn the trust of some one willing to put six figures down on a car that may go bust in 3 years.

Note with all that is going on they would never get the car right. They need to budget it to where there is no compromises. That can not be done near term. They also will not let the Corvette team do this car as the whole point is to have a group that make Cadillac's and only Cadillac's. Besides Tadge really has his hands full with his own line.

The long and short is this is not happening short term and there are so many legitimate reasons to prove this point.

Besides one sports car is not going to save Cadillac or add much value to any of their other product till they are were they need to be. To think other wise is a pipe dream.

This is big picture stuff. It is not about drawing lines from platforms to brands. You have to consider all that is going on and what money is already being spent. Also you have to consider that few people will come to this car. Is it worth a couple billion to just get a couple pages in Motor Trend and for them to say it is a nice car but comes up short in execution.

The bottom line is you do not fix the sedans and add the cross overs you will never gain any traction at Cadillac. They do not have to be nor want to be a super high volume brand but they do need to see growth. They can not move down as we already have Buick in that void.

Finally you have one more sports car come and go in less than 5 years and you will not see one again at Cadillac for a long time. They really have one more shot and it has to be done right at the right time and place in their progression. As of now this is not  priority and there is much more important business to attend to and to be funded.

I'm again talking 2019-20. The Sedans need fixing??? Outside of the ATS.. which is now 5 MY old... and been around for 6.. The CTS and CT6 don't need fixing... One needs an understanding from daft people at Caddy that cars in the segment need variation, which helps spawn sales.. the other is selling a 95% S-class at 75% the price.. OF EFFIN COURSE the comparisons are gonna favor the more expensive S or 7.. they are charging U more thus SHOULD offer more. In fact.. after U drove the CT6 TT and S550 back to back.. what were the issues the Cadillac presented versus the Benz??? I can tell U.. and this is coming from a staunch Caddy lover.. the most glaring difference in the cars was the effin steering wheel cover. I didn't even think the S-Class's V8 was able to move the car better by any measurable bit over the CT6 TT.  Both engines were smooth as the other. Both trannys shifted as nice. OH!!! Was it CUE??? Nope. Loved the Cadillac system. Perhaps its was my complete understanding of it after living with it for a year.

To the CORE product. I agree that the core product needs more VARIANTS.. and a few upgrades. Personally I still believe that a CT6 TTv8 and a revised Platinum interior with bespoke choices would be absolutely perfect as the CT8. Make it bigger by a few inches.. a CT6-L if U will, and give it a slightly different face. A Sports Coupe in the CTS line.. like before when it was mysteriously selling 30% more copies (because 30% of all CTS sales in Gen 2 were.. U guessed it.. COUPES) and a CT7 (Elmiraj) to be a companion to the CT6. No brainer. 2020 comes along .. then bring on the XLR replacement. 

Oh and I didn't forget the CUVS. Truth be told Caddy needs at least two more. Most people seems to forget that the Escalade comes in two sizes already.. along with the XT5 makes Caddy selling 3 in the segment.. two body-on-frame be damned. (I mean come on.. we compare the Escalade to GLS then forget it when we are talking about Cadillac offerings). Again.. the XT5's platform can support a smaller offering. It, I'm sure, can support a VSport variant with a higher HP engine and a hybrid. That would be 4. COMPLETELY MATCHING what Lexus is offering. Of course.. everyone wants Cadillac to offer a RWD performance SUV. Why? Its not the big seller in the market. Its not even a factor over at BMW for the X5 sales.

[Drew Dowdell]

23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yes. lol

I love 2 out of those 3! I just hate everything about the XTS..and I know it's irrational but I've just never liked it and I think because everything else Cadillac makes is so awesome to me that this is just an oddball. Whereas nothing Lincoln makes is super awesome and the Continental is the oddball out in a good way.

I like the XTS looks. I like the air suspension. I like the V6 Turbo (not a fan of the base V6, not enough torque for such a heavy car with AWD).  I like the space.

[hyperv6]

21 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I'm again talking 2019-20. The Sedans need fixing??? Outside of the ATS.. which is now 5 MY old... and been around for 6.. The CTS and CT6 don't need fixing... One needs an understanding from daft people at Caddy that cars in the segment need variation, which helps spawn sales.. the other is selling a 95% S-class at 75% the price.. OF EFFIN COURSE the comparisons are gonna favor the more expensive S or 7.. they are charging U more thus SHOULD offer more. In fact.. after U drove the CT6 TT and S550 back to back.. what were the issues the Cadillac presented versus the Benz??? I can tell U.. and this is coming from a staunch Caddy lover.. the most glaring difference in the cars was the effin steering wheel cover. I didn't even think the S-Class's V8 was able to move the car better by any measurable bit over the CT6 TT.  Both engines were smooth as the other. Both trannys shifted as nice. OH!!! Was it CUE??? Nope. Loved the Cadillac system. Perhaps its was my complete understanding of it after living with it for a year.

To the CORE product. I agree that the core product needs more VARIANTS.. and a few upgrades. Personally I still believe that a CT6 TTv8 and a revised Platinum interior with bespoke choices would be absolutely perfect as the CT8. Make it bigger by a few inches.. a CT6-L if U will, and give it a slightly different face. A Sports Coupe in the CTS line.. like before when it was mysteriously selling 30% more copies (because 30% of all CTS sales in Gen 2 were.. U guessed it.. COUPES) and a CT7 (Elmiraj) to be a companion to the CT6. No brainer. 2020 comes along .. then bring on the XLR replacement. 

Oh and I didn't forget the CUVS. Truth be told Caddy needs at least two more. Most people seems to forget that the Escalade comes in two sizes already.. along with the XT5 makes Caddy selling 3 in the segment.. two body-on-frame be damned. (I mean come on.. we compare the Escalade to GLS then forget it when we are talking about Cadillac offerings). Again.. the XT5's platform can support a smaller offering. It, I'm sure, can support a VSport variant with a higher HP engine and a hybrid. That would be 4. COMPLETELY MATCHING what Lexus is offering. Of course.. everyone wants Cadillac to offer a RWD performance SUV. Why? Its not the big seller in the market. Its not even a factor over at BMW for the X5 sales.

Here is the problem. Cadillac has had how many leaders in the last 10 years. None were there from start to end of a new platform and finished models. To often someone else had to come in and pick up someone else's plan. This has lead to cars that mechanically are on target but lacking in execution and details.

To gain in this segment they just can no longer just make cars as good or nearly as good they have to top the other brands in performance on all levels, Styling and details of the car.

Right now there is a need for adjustment on the ATS, CTS and CT6 as they are all so close together. The CT6 was an improvement in many areas but it still lacks in the details and execution of the car. This was mostly due to GM fighting Mark Ruess on giving the car better things right down to the Door Handles GM forced him to use cheaper ones on. JDN came in and said right up front this is not the flag ship as it was not good enough. Not a bad car but not to the level it needs to be to change hearts and minds.

The Same on the XT5 as it is a good vehicle but it really is not to the level Cadillac would like to take things. I am waiting to see the first of the JDN products to see just what he got done with no interference from GM. He is the first to change things with no one looking over his shoulder.

This is not being better than the Germans it is being better than anyone in the price range as Hyundai and Volvo are now getting into the conversation some how. They are not burdened by a past of botched attempts as Cadillac has been in the last 30 plus years.

Cadillac needs to make their products compelling in style, technology and quality to the point it matters little what someone preference is that they are attracted to their product.  When I speak of details and such it is where you see a lack of knee room, The feel of the door handle, the quality of the plastics. The lack of things like self dimming right side mirrors as standard. etc. These little things add up and turn off potential owners.

The Reality is Cadillac needs to play to the market not the base as the Cadillac base has really died off and or moved on. They need to win the hearts minds and desires of these open market people as they are not brand focuses as they once were and with a car that is compelling and getting the details right they can draw interest back in.

It is still going to take time and investment to win these people back as too many have lost their trust in the brand.

You fix these cars and dominate the CUV segment with the new products then we can entertain the though of a sports car people can trust in after a good experience with their new revamped ATS or Cadillac CUV.  Till then there is no compelling reason to spend big on a sports car that may not deliver the goods in the long run and only damage the image more. the last two attempts did more damage than good.

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Then he's drunk off water.. because the other day a Continental only got my attention only after an Accord that was in front of it rolled by.. and even then I found myself thinking " wow... as much as I hate Japanese products... that Honda looks more upscale than the new Lincoln." 

No way I would have said that about either of these two

 

50% of those cars pictured look gorgeous.

50% of those cars pictured look like they belong in 1999 with their pre-athletic cars.

[ccap41]

51 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I'm again talking 2019-20. The Sedans need fixing??? Outside of the ATS.. which is now 5 MY old... and been around for 6..

Where are you getting 5 and 6 from? Wasn't the first model year 2013 and would have come out late 2012?

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Where are you getting 5 and 6 from? Wasn't the first model year 2013 and would have come out late 2012?

Last I checked... we are in 2017.  The ATS actually hit the lots in 2012. It was being shown in 2011.  Lets see.. basic numbers I learned in the Womb.. 2011-->2012=1 ; 2012-->2013= 2 ; 2013-->2014=3 ; 2014--> 2015= 4;  2015-->2016 =5 ; 2016-->2017= 6

[FordCosworth]

9 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Last I checked... we are in 2017.  The ATS actually hit the lots in 2012. It was being shown in 2011.  Lets see.. basic numbers I learned in the Womb.. 2011-->2012=1 ; 2012-->2013= 2 ; 2013-->2014=3 ; 2014--> 2015= 4;  2015-->2016 =5 ; 2016-->2017= 6

The car was debuted to the press in January 2012

The first model year was 2013.

 

[oldshurst442]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS

 

Quote

Cadillac debuted the ATS to the press in the United States in January 2012, placed the ATS into production in July 2012 and began selling the ATS in the United States in August 2012 as a 2013 model. GM began selling the ATS in China in November 2013

That would be EXACTLY  5 years we were shown the ATS and 4.5 years its been sold...

Maybe you should go back into your momma's womb and learn better mathematics...

Semantics...I know...but Casa, when arrogant, expect arrogant responses...

Just wipe this post clean off your radar, its OK...I know you secretly read my posts anyway...

[ccap41]

 

23 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Last I checked... we are in 2017.  The ATS actually hit the lots in 2012. It was being shown in 2011.  Lets see.. basic numbers I learned in the Womb.. 2011-->2012=1 ; 2012-->2013= 2 ; 2013-->2014=3 ; 2014--> 2015= 4;  2015-->2016 =5 ; 2016-->2017= 6

You need better maths(or reading skillz).

"Cadillac debuted the ATS to the press in the United States in January 2012, placed the ATS into production in July 2012 and began selling the ATS in the United States in August 2012 as a 2013 model. GM began selling the ATS in China in November 2013. For the 2016 model year, Cadillac sells the ATS in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Europe, the Middle East, China, Japan, and South Korea."

2017-2012 = __  I'll leave that blank for you and your smartass-ness to fill in.

Also, less than a week ago people we still saying the same thing that the ATS needs a refresh, in 2016. The call for a refresh didn't happen only 6 days ago.

Edited January 6, 2017 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

2017 - 2012 = 4.5

So says the School of New trumpmath!

 

[FordCosworth]

There is no 2012 model.

Model years are 2013 - 2017. 

 

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, dfelt said:

2017 - 2012 = 4.5

So says the School of New trumpmath!

 

If you read the link.. which you didn't.. that's how long the car has been on sale which was 6 months after it's showing to the press. Hence, the half of a year. JABRONI!

[surreal1272]

Semantics aside, the ATS is still essentially five years old and most definitely needs an update at this point. 

 

Sorry Casa but it has not been six years but again, it matters not in the long run. Five years in this market is too long without a proper update IMO. 

[oldshurst442]

54 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

JABRONI

That part alone is worth 1000 upvotes!!!