MT: Lincoln Continental 3.0T First Test

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

One SUV sells that high, and while Escalade sales are good, there aren't enough of them to pull the ATP that high on its own.

We already know XTS is dead man walking at this point. It gets one small refresh and that's it.

Cadillac website and monthly count differentiates Escalade and ESV, and i think that figures into the ATP average.

Lincoln does not differentiate Navigator and L

 

And regardless, XTS will be on lots for years to come.

[surreal1272]

45 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

And as I stated, what surreal pointed out has zero to do with Cadillac or Lincoln fleet numbers.

And as I pointed out, it has everything to do with it unless you are beholden to the brand you are trying to defend. Your simply disagreeing with it doesn't make it any less true. The excuses have been plenty but the facts are even more plentiful. 

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

One SUV sells that high, and while Escalade sales are good, there aren't enough of them to pull the ATP that high on its own.

We already know XTS is dead man walking at this point. It gets one small refresh and that's it.

And who cares if the Escalade does inflate it? It's part of their lineup and it makes them a killing, which last time I checked was a good thing. It's like pointing out that Fords ATPs can be attributed to their biggest seller, the profit machine known as the F-150. When did it become a problem to make a profit? I guess it became one when it wasn't about Ford. 

 

And mentioning the Navigator as the reason for lower ATPs of Lincoln is silly for the simple fact that even if it was counted the same, there is also a $30k price difference at the top tier trim level to consider (Navigator vs. the Escalade).

 

Like I said, excuses a plenty that matter not.

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And as I pointed out, it has everything to do with it unless you are beholden to the brand you are trying to defend. Your simply disagreeing with it doesn't make it any less true. The excuses have been plenty but the facts are even more plentiful. 

No it does not.

Show me Conti fleet numbers, which is what I have been debating, or go back to quoting Mustang fleet.......WHICH HAS ZERO EFFIN TO DO WITH CONTI.

 

thanks

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Cadillac website and monthly count differentiates Escalade and ESV, and i think that figures into the ATP average.

Lincoln does not differentiate Navigator and L

 

And regardless, XTS will be on lots for years to come.

That's not how ATP by brand works. Total transaction $ amount for all sales divided by total number of transactions.  It doesn't matter is ESV is counted separately or not.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's not how ATP by brand works. Total transaction $ amount for all sales divided by total number of transactions.  It doesn't matter is ESV is counted separately or not.

Good to know.

But still, Cadillac sells a lot of large SUV's.  That skews their ATP upward significantly.  But again, I was only seeking to compare ATP's of the Conti and CT6.  I am curious.  And again, total ATP's won't tell you that.

[surreal1272]

When selling too much of a car is a negative for one company, but not the other company. 

 

Sigh. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Cadillac's higher ATP happens when you sell several SUV's that reach $100K.  I was curious about specific cars, which is the focus here.

Actually Cadillac's ATP has to do with the Escalade, CTS, CT6, and even the XTS... all of which sell a nice bit in Platinum, VSport and now a VSeries

7 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Actually, XTS, CTS and CT6 are all being cross shopped. Which begs the question......why hurt Buick with the XTS.

With all the hoopla U made over Mustang's massive fleet sales having to do with this thread.. I ask.. who the hell is out there cross-shopping Buicks and Cadillacs.. when in reality they are cross-shopping Buicks with.. wait for it.. LINCOLNS???   with Buick nowadays getting the sale more often. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

......and before someone cues up Buick sales beating Lincoln, let's recall that Lincoln does not sell a gazillion $22K MSRP vehicles.

Ooops. I already did. I guess the Enclave and LaX sell for $22K??? The Regal?? The Envision??? Even the Encore I bought for my ex sold for over $30K before haggling . U my boy are reaching for 

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Cadillac website and monthly count differentiates Escalade and ESV, and i think that figures into the ATP average.

Lincoln does not differentiate Navigator and L

 

Irrelevant, But still..  at the fact that even if U split the Escalade sales... each, individually outsells the Navigator and MKT combined

[Cmicasa the Great]

4 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Good to know.

But still, Cadillac sells a lot of large SUV's.  That skews their ATP upward significantly.  But again, I was only seeking to compare ATP's of the Conti and CT6.  I am curious.  And again, total ATP's won't tell you that.

Anyone else find it ironic as hell.. that while Cadillac's SUV/CUV content does make up about 52% of Cadillac sales.. Lincoln's SUV/CUV mix makes up 64%? Almost every time Wings opens his mouth.. he screams hypocrisy. 

I promised myself I was only gonna half ass my posts when responding to some but threads like this make me wanna come fully back on 

[TaurusSHO]

31 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Ooops. I already did. I guess the Enclave and LaX sell for $22K??? The Regal?? The Envision??? Even the Encore I bought for my ex sold for over $30K before haggling . U my boy are reaching for 

Take out Verano and Envision sales, both of which top out around where the cheapest Lincoln starts, and you will see that Buick has sold less than 10k more units so far this year than Lincoln.  MKZ outsells the Regal even though the Regal starts for about $8k less.  The MKX handily outsells the Envision even though the MKX starts for about $4k more.  The Lacrosse outsells the Continental, but a fully loaded Lacrosse is only about $6k more than the cheapest Continental.

GM fans have a number of valid arguments against Lincoln, but using Buick sales to put down Lincoln is grasping at straws at best. 

23 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Anyone else find it ironic as hell.. that while Cadillac's SUV/CUV content does make up about 52% of Cadillac sales.. Lincoln's SUV/CUV mix makes up 64%? Almost every time Wings opens his mouth.. he screams hypocrisy. 

I promised myself I was only gonna half ass my posts when responding to some but threads like this make me wanna come fully back on 

He said large SUVs, not SUVs/CUVs in general.  Huge difference.  You're right though about Cadillac offering more high end/performance trims than Lincoln. 

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Take out Verano and Envision sales, both of which top out around where the cheapest Lincoln starts, and you will see that Buick has sold less than 10k more units so far this year than Lincoln.  MKZ outsells the Regal even though the Regal starts for about $8k less.  The MKX handily outsells the Envision even though the MKX starts for about $4k more.  The Lacrosse outsells the Continental, but a fully loaded Lacrosse is only about $6k more than the cheapest Continental.

GM fans have a number of valid arguments against Lincoln, but using Buick sales to put down Lincoln is grasping at straws at best. 

He said large SUVs, not SUVs/CUVs in general.  Huge difference.  You're right though about Cadillac offering more high end/performance trims than Lincoln. 

Given that Lincoln sells an equal size SUV (can't be helped that Lincoln can't sell near as many even though they're cheaper than the Escalade), it makes the statement even sillier. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

18 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Take out Verano and Envision sales, both of which top out around where the cheapest Lincoln starts, and you will see that Buick has sold less than 10k more units so far this year than Lincoln.  MKZ outsells the Regal even though the Regal starts for about $8k less.  The MKX handily outsells the Envision even though the MKX starts for about $4k more.  The Lacrosse outsells the Continental, but a fully loaded Lacrosse is only about $6k more than the cheapest Continental.

GM fans have a number of valid arguments against Lincoln, but using Buick sales to put down Lincoln is grasping at straws at best. 

Your boy brought up Buick sales so I took a swing and came up with a Grand Slam...

Why would anyone have to pull out a companies sales to help your argument? Last I checked the Envision was just hitting the market and still wasn't up to full stride with product mix. I effin HOPE to God that the MKX, now going on two decades old, could outsell the limping into existence Envision. 

Regal vs MKZ? Are we even serious? The same MKZ that Lincoln markets the hell out of and pretty much got a redo just last year versus the Regal that gets no marketing and has been around for 6 years? Ironically the Regal/Insignia's sales globally should still be far and away better than the MKZ's 

As to the Lacrosse vs Continental.. Perhaps the fact of the matter is that Buick is perfectly sitting in the spot it needs to be right now.. not misconceived into trying to be something it isn't.. like Lincoln. I wouldn't touch a Lincoln with your money let alone mine. I would instantly feel like I had just been robbed, bent over, and raped.

[TaurusSHO]

16 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Your boy brought up Buick sales so I took a swing and came up with a Grand Slam...

Why would anyone have to pull out a companies sales to help your argument? Last I checked the Envision was just hitting the market and still wasn't up to full stride with product mix. I effin HOPE to God that the MKX, now going on two decades old, could outsell the limping into existence Envision. 

Regal vs MKZ? Are we even serious? The same MKZ that Lincoln markets the hell out of and pretty much got a redo just last year versus the Regal that gets no marketing and has been around for 6 years? Ironically the Regal/Insignia's sales globally should still be far and away better than the MKZ's 

As to the Lacrosse vs Continental.. Perhaps the fact of the matter is that Buick is perfectly sitting in the spot it needs to be right now.. not misconceived into trying to be something it isn't.. like Lincoln. I wouldn't touch a Lincoln with your money let alone mine. I would instantly feel like I had just been robbed, bent over, and raped.

The Envision has been out since May.  Even if the product mix was the issue, the sales gap is too large to surpass the MKX.  The MKZ has outsold the Regal every year except 2011.  If you feel that way about the Continental, you'd have to feel that way about the XTS as well. 

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Given that Lincoln sells an equal size SUV (can't be helped that Lincoln can't sell near as many even though they're cheaper than the Escalade), it makes the statement even sillier. 

It's not silly considering the Navigator has had one minor update since 2006.  I don't expect the new Navigator to outsell the Escalade, but I bet sales will be much closer. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by TaurusSHO

[Drew Dowdell]

Buick sells more Regals globally (not even counting Insignia which adds another ~75k to the total) than Lincoln sells vehicles. 

And generally, Buick sells more vehicles globally in one month than Lincoln does in an entire year. Yes there is a price difference on those global cars... But even in just the US, Enclave sales alone (which is inside of Lincoln's price range) are 50% of the Lincoln brand total for the year.

Even if you take out Encore and Verano, count only Regal, LaCrosse, Cascada, Envision, and Enclave.... Buick is ahead by about 10,000 units.

[TaurusSHO]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Buick sells more Regals globally (not even counting Insignia which adds another ~75k to the total) than Lincoln sells vehicles. 

And generally, Buick sells more vehicles globally in one month than Lincoln does in an entire year. Yes there is a price difference on those global cars... But even in just the US, Enclave sales alone (which is inside of Lincoln's price range) are 50% of the Lincoln brand total for the year.

Even if you take out Encore and Verano, count only Regal, LaCrosse, Cascada, Envision, and Enclave.... Buick is ahead by about 10,000 units.

Ok, but that has nothing to do with US sales where both are established players.  As for the last half of your post, I already detailed that in a post above.

[Drew Dowdell]

9 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Ok, but that has nothing to do with US sales where both are established players.  As for the last half of your post, I already detailed that in a post above.

it's fine... it took me a while to type that on my phone

[Cmicasa the Great]

43 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

The Envision has been out since May.  Even if the product mix was the issue, the sales gap is too large to surpass the MKX.  The MKZ has outsold the Regal every year except 2011.  If you feel that way about the Continental, you'd have to feel that way about the XTS as well. 

Envision started selling on the last few days of may amidst controversy due to its manufacturing origin and the political atmosphere spawned by an egomaniac that makes even me seem humble . To top it all off  when it went on sale it was only in top form, meaning the most expensive trim. 

The MKZ should outsell the Regal.. an excellent car that I'd take in a heart beat over the Fusion clone, especially in GS form.. they advertise the hell out of it. 

As to the Continental vs the XTS.. The XTS is an excellent cruiser, plenty of power, quiet as a mouse, looks upscale and feels upscale. Did I mention that despite some enthusiasts' ideas about its FWD proportions.. I think its gorgeous. The Continental??? Couldn't get me up if it had a life size nude picture of Margot Robbie down on all fours taped to its rear.

[surreal1272]

35 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

The Envision has been out since May.  Even if the product mix was the issue, the sales gap is too large to surpass the MKX.  The MKZ has outsold the Regal every year except 2011.  If you feel that way about the Continental, you'd have to feel that way about the XTS as well. 

It's not silly considering the Navigator has had one minor update since 2006.  I don't expect the new Navigator to outsell the Escalade, but I bet sales will be much closer. 

So again, like I asked Wings, how is it a fault and a bad thing that Cadillac can sell their full size SUV and make a $h! ton of money on them, in the process? His going after the Escalade, in this case, would be like me going after Ford for the F-150, which is responsible for their highest profits and almost a third of their yearly sales. Who cares on both counts? They both make their respective companies a lot of money and the last time I checked, that was a good thing. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

******* It's not silly considering the Navigator has had one minor update since 2006.  I don't expect the new Navigator to outsell the Escalade, but I bet sales will be much closer. 

****Ok, but that has nothing to do with US sales where both are established players.  

Well why not? Buick is a marketing channel. It is in and of itself a near-lux brand, same as Lincoln, but with a an additional channel over at GMC. Specifically I speak of the Denali brand.. interesting enough one could easily but the Yukon Denali up against the Navigator and see my point. The Denali is more luxo than the Navigator. 

Seriously bro. U wanna really examine Buick without including its truck/suv brand in a sales argument? It makes no sense.

[TaurusSHO]

22 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Envision started selling on the last few days of may amidst controversy due to its manufacturing origin and the political atmosphere spawned by an egomaniac that makes even me seem humble . To top it all off  when it went on sale it was only in top form, meaning the most expensive trim. 

The MKZ should outsell the Regal.. an excellent car that I'd take in a heart beat over the Fusion clone, especially in GS form.. they advertise the hell out of it. 

As to the Continental vs the XTS.. The XTS is an excellent cruiser, plenty of power, quiet as a mouse, looks upscale and feels upscale. Did I mention that despite some enthusiasts' ideas about its FWD proportions.. I think its gorgeous. The Continental??? Couldn't get me up if it had a life size nude picture of Margot Robbie down on all fours taped to its rear.

None of that refutes what I said. 

16 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Well why not? Buick is a marketing channel. It is in and of itself a near-lux brand, same as Lincoln, but with a an additional channel over at GMC. Specifically I speak of the Denali brand.. interesting enough one could easily but the Yukon Denali up against the Navigator and see my point. The Denali is more luxo than the Navigator. 

Seriously bro. U wanna really examine Buick without including its truck/suv brand in a sales argument? It makes no sense.

So now you want to bring in another entire brand to prove your point?  Keep grasping.

[surreal1272]

@TaurusSHO--How exactly is that "grasping"?

 

Also, why create an artificial scenario by excluding certain cars or CUVs to prove your point, get countered on that, and then say that it doesn't refute your point? 

Edited December 19, 2016 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Riddle me this GM fans,

if the Conti can't compete with the CT6 that costs more, then how does Lincoln compete with Buick, when there is even more of a price difference?

 

Waiting......

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Riddle me this GM fans,

if the Conti can't compete with the CT6 that costs more, then how does Lincoln compete with Buick, when there is even more of a price difference?

 

Waiting......

Actually, I'm using your own argument to support mine. If Continental competes with the $10k more expensive CT6 directly, then most of the Buick brand competes with all of the Lincoln brand under that same logic. 

So basically, if you want to insist that $10k price difference doesn't matter, fine, but then that brings Buick and Denali into the argument too.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Actually, I'm using your own argument to support mine. If Continental competes with the $10k more expensive CT6 directly, then most of the Buick brand competes with all of the Lincoln brand under that same logic. 

So basically, if you want to insist that $10k price difference doesn't matter, fine, but then that brings Buick and Denali into the argument too.

Obviously there is overlap, that is quickly dissolving.  Premium Ford vehicles are much closer aligned, and even offer more luxury features and power.  Lincoln goes several steps further.  There is no answer from Buick for an $80K Conti, and there is no answer from Lincoln for a $22K Buick.  I mostly bring that up when the sales card is played.  

Soon we will see $100K Continentals and $90K Aviators.  Again, several products that Buick (or GMC) has no answer too.

After that, who knows what Lincoln will bring. And Ford.

Combining brands was the best thing Ford ever did.  

[surreal1272]

You're the one that brought up the sales card while not playing whole deck, i.e. pointing out that the Conti outsold the much more expensive CT6 while ignoring it losing badly to the equally priced XTS. 

 

And right now, Lincoln has no answer for Cadillacs $100K SUV or sedan, so do you see how your Buick logic can be turned against you?

Edited December 19, 2016 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You're the one that brought up the sales card while not playing whole deck, i.e. pointing out that the Conti outsold the much more expensive CT6 while ignoring it losing badly to the equally priced XTS. 

 

And right now, Lincoln has no answer for Cadillacs $100K SUV or sedan, so do you see how your Buick logic can be turned against you?

 

And try to keep up, I just now stated that Lincoln has a $100K Navigator they are only weeks from introducing, although the current Navi managed to win some comparo's on it's tired old bones.  So great hope awaits the all new one.

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Obviously there is overlap, that is quickly dissolving.  Premium Ford vehicles are much closer aligned, and even offer more luxury features and power.  Lincoln goes several steps further.  There is no answer from Buick for an $80K Conti, and there is no answer from Lincoln for a $22K Buick.  I mostly bring that up when the sales card is played.  

Soon we will see $100K Continentals and $90K Aviators.  Again, several products that Buick (or GMC) has no answer too.

After that, who knows what Lincoln will bring. And Ford.

Combining brands was the best thing Ford ever did.  

Past performance is no indicator of future performance.  We're talking about where Lincoln and Buick are today.  Is Lincoln on the move? Absolutely.  Are they there yet? No.  There will be a time, I hope, that Lincoln is back to its former glory and well above Buick in "premiumness"..... that day is not today.

Of the Ford premium vehicles, only the F-150 and Explorer really bring it to Buick. The Buick Enclave is about to be refreshed to bring it even higher.  The Lacrosse is a much more luxurious place to spend time than a Fusion Platinum.... even the previous Lacrosse was. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Past performance is no indicator of future performance.  We're talking about where Lincoln and Buick are today.  Is Lincoln on the move? Absolutely.  Are they there yet? No.  There will be a time, I hope, that Lincoln is back to its former glory and well above Buick in "premiumness"..... that day is not today.

Of the Ford premium vehicles, only the F-150 and Explorer really bring it to Buick. The Buick Enclave is about to be refreshed to bring it even higher.  The Lacrosse is a much more luxurious place to spend time than a Fusion Platinum.... even the previous Lacrosse was. 

Wait, what?  Buick can only move so far due to Cadillac. That is the problem with multiple luxury brands.

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Wait, what?  Buick can only move so far due to Cadillac. That is the problem with multiple luxury brands.

So how is it not a problem for Ford as well, being that you have stated multiple times that Fords platinum trims are more luxurious than Buick? It goes both ways here. 

[Drew Dowdell]

14 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Wait, what?  Buick can only move so far due to Cadillac. That is the problem with multiple luxury brands.

And Ford can only move so far due to Lincoln.  The Fusion Platinum is a fantastic upgrade for a family car, but there are still lots of base Fusion parts on the interior. Quilted leather is very nice, but then the carpet was still the rental grade stuff, door panels are still the same as a base fusion except for the quilted parts.... stuff like that. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

3 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Obviously there is overlap, that is quickly dissolving.  Premium Ford vehicles are much closer aligned, and even offer more luxury features and power.  Lincoln goes several steps further.  There is no answer from Buick for an $80K Conti, and there is no answer from Lincoln for a $22K Buick.  I mostly bring that up when the sales card is played.  

Soon we will see $100K Continentals and $90K Aviators.  Again, several products that Buick (or GMC) has no answer too.

After that, who knows what Lincoln will bring. And Ford.

Combining brands was the best thing Ford ever did.  

But GMC already has the Denali which is easily pushing $90K with the right options.. Second.. as I stated earlier Buick/GMC is a bridge-gap brand.. bringing in ATPs that I would bet good money are on par with Lincoln's... it is essentially what Ford had with Mercury and Lincoln while the real luxury brands were encompassed at PAG. What makes it crazier is that these two brands are pulling in a Global customer.. to the tune of 1.5 million sales last year with Buick as of Oct of this year passing the 1 million mark on its own. Combining brands??? What was the true benefit in doing so except saving a dollar or two on paying for emblems?

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And Ford can only move so far due to Lincoln.  The Fusion Platinum is a fantastic upgrade for a family car, but there are still lots of base Fusion parts on the interior. Quilted leather is very nice, but then the carpet was still the rental grade stuff, door panels are still the same as a base fusion except for the quilted parts.... stuff like that. 

Exactly my point regarding Fords upper level trims. 

[Drew Dowdell]

24 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Wait, what?  Buick can only move so far due to Cadillac. That is the problem with multiple luxury brands.

And I actually disagree that GM can't handle two luxury brands.  Buick can take the sumptuous soft luxury route with sexy cars like Avenier and Avista which have no pretense on ultimate sportiness but still provide swift acceleration, Cadillac can take on the Germans with hard edge performance luxury.

I don't think that's what GM intends though.  Buick is going to be catering to the tastes of China with the US only as an afterthought. Then the Europeans get their say...... If it's what the Chinese and Europeans like, that's what we'll get in the US.

[Cmicasa the Great]

28 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Wait, what?  Buick can only move so far due to Cadillac. That is the problem with multiple luxury brands.

not necessarily true, but for the sake of argument Buick/GMC could be hobbled and only left to compete at max with Lexus. Basically the introduction of Avista opens possibilities of similarities to what Lasalle once represented. I always find it ridiculous and hypocritical when I go back and read some of your old posts via MTForum or even remember come from Carfanatics and AutoweekCC. U never had an issue with muti- luxo brands.. often parading Mercury, Volvo and Jag. Regardless.. there is zero wrong with multibrands. By your logic in the most pure form.. the only brand that is truly realistically viable in the United States is Benz.. who at the moment is the selling vehicles from the high $20K-200K. Their line is beginning to be quite muddles in terms of positioning and perceptions. In fact.. why does Ford even continue to try and market Lincoln when ONE FORD should mean that the Continental simply be.. the Taurus Platinum?

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Yes, I brought it up preemptively......AND CLEARLY STATED SO!!!

It ALWAYS gets played by the same folk.

 

And try to keep up, I just now stated that Lincoln has a $100K Navigator they are only weeks from introducing, although the current Navi managed to win some comparo's on it's tired old bones.  So great hope awaits the all new one.

And Aviator too.  Funny how you ignored that.

 

 

The Aviator? Really? Sorry but the Ford Explorer II, I mean Aviator, does not fit into this equation as it relates to $90-100K cars. Why you even bothered mentioning that is beyond me. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And I actually disagree that GM can't handle two luxury brands.  Buick can take the sumptuous soft luxury route with sexy cars like Avenier and Avista which have no pretense on ultimate sportiness but still provide swift acceleration, Cadillac can take on the Germans with hard edge performance luxury.

I don't think that's what GM intends though.  Buick is going to be catering to the tastes of China with the US only as an afterthought. Then the Europeans get their say...... If it's what the Chinese and Europeans like, that's what we'll get in the US.

And that can be successful. I truly believe that Buick can achieve Lexus/Audi-ish luxury while Cadillac takes on Benz/BMW/LR.. while essentially maintaining a level of exclusiveness and quirky avail like Jag/Porsche. My point being there really should be no Caddy below the ATS.. no CLA fighter... ever. There should be nothing on the level of an BMW X1. One drive in either will make U understand why. Buick on the other hand essentially has an XTS update, tho smaller in the '17 LaX. A current CT6 Premium config would be the Avenir after Buick styling was incorporated. Me?? Personally I don't believe in premium platform exclusivity.. In my opinion Omega should be avail to even Chevy

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

56 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And Ford can only move so far due to Lincoln.  The Fusion Platinum is a fantastic upgrade for a family car, but there are still lots of base Fusion parts on the interior. Quilted leather is very nice, but then the carpet was still the rental grade stuff, door panels are still the same as a base fusion except for the quilted parts.... stuff like that. 

Drew, you are smarter than this.

Ford is not forced to move upscale to catch Lincoln.  They simply offer trim levels that people demand.  They don't have to. 

That is a much different story entirely for an entire secondary luxury brand that needs to define it's own identity and justify it's existence.

 

 

[surreal1272]

58 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Drew, you are smarter than this.

Ford is not forced to move upscale to catch Lincoln.  They simply offer trim levels that people demand.  They don't have to. 

That is a much different story entirely for an entire secondary luxury brand that needs to define it's own identity and justify it's existence.

 

 

Sorry but by your own definition of the Buick/Cadillac issue, the same can be said and applied to Fords Platinum trims and Lincoln. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Drew, you are smarter than this.

Ford is not forced to move upscale to catch Lincoln.  They simply offer trim levels that people demand.  They don't have to. 

That is a much different story entirely for an entire secondary luxury brand that needs to define it's own identity and justify it's existence.

 

 

Because its Buick's fault that it was a blazing success in China.. Again... we are not talking about Lincoln which as of Oct... had sold about 25K Lincolns in China.. We are talking about Buick which had sold about 950K.. or even Cadillac who was closing in on 80K

[Cmicasa the Great]

Oh.. and quite frankly I had no issue with GM retaining Pontiac. I think the original plan of having it as basically a brand exclusively like SRT was supposed to be was perfect. Could U imagine how awesome the G8 would have been with the upgrades the SS got plus a coupe? Or the Trans-Am on Alpha pushing 650HP??? An Alpha based G6 (which was seriously supposed to happen. See below).. an Alpha based Solstice GXP???  Nothing wrong with Multi-Brand.. as long as its differentiated enough or has a solid following (see GMC vs Chevy Trucks). Pontiac as it was.. was not a good idea, but the plan Lutz suggested would have been awesome. 

 

Was supposed to be the G6 RWD on Alpha

 

or G8 Coupe

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Oh.. and quite frankly I had no issue with GM retaining Pontiac. I think the original plan of having it as basically a brand exclusively like SRT was supposed to be was perfect. Could U imagine how awesome the G8 would have been with the upgrades the SS got plus a coupe? Or the Trans-Am on Alpha pushing 650HP??? An Alpha based G6 (which was seriously supposed to happen. See below).. an Alpha based Solstice GXP???  Nothing wrong with Multi-Brand.. as long as its differentiated enough or has a solid following (see GMC vs Chevy Trucks). Pontiac as it was.. was not a good idea, but the plan Lutz suggested would have been awesome. 

 

Was supposed to be the G6 RWD on Alpha

 

or G8 Coupe

I know I'm the wagon weirdo here but if they would have produced a wagon version of the G8 and brought it here, I would have been all over that. 

[Drew Dowdell]

22 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Drew, you are smarter than this.

Ford is not forced to move upscale to catch Lincoln.  They simply offer trim levels that people demand.  They don't have to. 

That is a much different story entirely for an entire secondary luxury brand that needs to define it's own identity and justify it's existence.

 

 

You don't seem to recognize that there is a middle. That middle is where Buick, some Lexus, some Toyota, some Acura, some VW, some Nissan, some Hyundai that Ford, at the moment, does not.

$37k is the MSRP for a Fusion Platinum, and as good as the platinum is, there are a lot of fantastic players at that price. $37k gets you into a Regal GS or a nicely appointed Lacrosse Preferred, or Lexus IS, or VW CC, or Toyota Avalon, or Hyundai Azera, Kia Amanti, or Maxmia SR, or a heck of a lot of Acura TLX. 

The primary difference between these cars and the Fusion Platinum is that they aren't cars that start at $22k and as such the bones of their interior and overall build is built to a higher standard.  

For the moment, Lincoln addresses that by pricing the MKZ just at the very top of Fusion territory.... but if Lincoln wants to move up, as they should, eventually they'll need to abandon this practice and move the base Lincolns higher than the top end Fords.   The Taurus SHO is $42k and the base Continental is $44k.   I'd like to see the MKZ, MKX, and Continental move up significantly in price and drop the current base configurations to help add some prestige to the brand, but then that leaves gaps in the Ford lineup.

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You don't seem to recognize that there is a middle. That middle is where Buick, some Lexus, some Toyota, some Acura, some VW, some Nissan, some Hyundai that Ford, at the moment, does not.

$37k is the MSRP for a Fusion Platinum, and as good as the platinum is, there are a lot of fantastic players at that price. $37k gets you into a Regal GS or a nicely appointed Lacrosse Preferred, or Lexus IS, or VW CC, or Toyota Avalon, or Hyundai Azera, Kia Amanti, or Maxmia SR, or a heck of a lot of Acura TLX. 

The primary difference between these cars and the Fusion Platinum is that they aren't cars that start at $22k and as such the bones of their interior and overall build is built to a higher standard.  

For the moment, Lincoln addresses that by pricing the MKZ just at the very top of Fusion territory.... but if Lincoln wants to move up, as they should, eventually they'll need to abandon this practice and move the base Lincolns higher than the top end Fords.   The Taurus SHO is $42k and the base Continental is $44k.   I'd like to see the MKZ, MKX, and Continental move up significantly in price and drop the current base configurations to help add some prestige to the brand, but then that leaves gaps in the Ford lineup.

 

Raising the prices too much and eliminating the value end, equals fewer sales.  Lincoln is too smart for that.  Perhaps one day that can be the case, but for now, they don't want to make a Cadillac of a mistake.

[oldshurst442]

39 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'd like to see the MKZ, MKX, and Continental move up significantly in price and drop the current base configurations to help add some prestige to the brand, but then that leaves gaps in the Ford lineup.

That is where Mercury was at.

I understand why Mercury was killed off, and it was necessary at that point in time, and FoMoCo dropped the ball in the late 1970s and 1980s with Mercury that continued all the way until Mercury's death...

But in today's 2016 FoMoCo, wouldn't it be nice if FoMoCo still  had Mercury?

FoMoCo did a fabulous job of getting Ford the brand with the Premium trims to replace Mercury somewhat, but Lincoln needs to get their trims and quality and the their price levels higher at the base level...this I agree with you Drew.

Edited December 20, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

38 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Raising the prices too much and eliminating the value end, equals fewer sales.  Lincoln is too smart for that.  Perhaps one day that can be the case, but for now, they don't want to make a Cadillac of a mistake.

Lower sales but higher profits on a premium product aiming for exclusivity is a bad thing? Go directly to economics class, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

That is where Mercury was at.

I understand why Mercury was killed off, and it was necessary at that point in time, and FoMoCo dropped the ball in the late 1970s and 1980s with Mercury that continued all the way until Mercury's death...

But in today's 2016 FoMoCo, wouldn't it be nice if FoMoCo still  had Mercury?

FoMoCo did a fabulous job of getting Ford the brand with the Premium trims to replace Mercury somewhat, but Lincoln needs to get their trims and quality and the their price levels higher at the base level...this I agree with you Drew.

Yeah, I wish Mercury hadn't been killed off too.  I'd love to see the day again where the Continental is the king of the lineup and mentioned in the same breath as S-Class or 7-series without irony.  But in order to do that, Lincoln will have to accept lower volumes.