MT: Lincoln Continental 3.0T First Test

[ccap41]

Random but I saw a black Conti yesterday in a mall parking lot. Damn good looking vehicle. It isn't attention grabbing or anything crazy special but it just looks damn good. Nothing offensive, just clean and simple. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

36 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Random but I saw a black Conti yesterday in a mall parking lot. Damn good looking vehicle. It isn't attention grabbing or anything crazy special but it just looks damn good. Nothing offensive, just clean and simple. 

Perspective. Any new car... almost any new car... looks good to a person driving a non-new car.. especially when they are looking to have a new car. The Conti is plain and boring. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

20 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Okay, so the magazines contend the Lincoln drives well enough to actually comptete with the CT6. Instead of bashing the Lincoln, would you actually consider what kind of expectations Lincoln imparted on the press, and then how the vehicle delivered on those promises?

 

What I'm surprised by, is that such mainstream engineering can go so far as to actually competing with cars that are supposed to be premium because of the badge. And that CT6? It weighs 1000 lbs less than the S-Class. Yet it only weighs 161 pounds less than the Conti. And compared to the S-Class. The CT6 is missing an entire pedigree of luxury. Continetal atleast is a well understood name. And Lincoln has that history of the nameplate, and what it once used to be decades ago.

 

CT6 - it's got a stupid name that shows how far Cadillac is willing to copy Germans. The CT6 with it's premium engineering, all the tricks thrown at it...the best that GM has, fails to live up to the hype. I like it. But it's interior is cheap, and I'd wish the car weighed the same as the Lincoln, because then they'd have put more padding on the doors, better leather on the seats, and real metal on the speakers. It was supposed to be the killer American, luxury sedan.

The Conti surprises, because it delivers exactly what Lincoln promised. Lincoln didn't water down expectations. They defined their core competency and their vision for their brand, and executed. And that is cumulative sum of all the automotive opinion that exists. But please do go one raging how Lincoln gets a free pass. And really, the Conti isn't that special. But it is a helluva lot better than what people think or remember of even recent Lincolns.

Few, like 1% of the people buying the CT6 will consider it a performance sedan. And the XTS sells a lot because it's a fleet queen itself, and it's been on market for 3.5 years. Don't forget that. XTS or MKS/MKT is the vehicle you ride, because you're probably going to ride to the cemetary anyways.

 

 

 

 

U are like that character that River Phoenix played in the movie Stand By Me.. a trouble-maker who always tries to be the voice of reason, very often without any real facts. He got killed trying to break-up a knife fight in the end.

The magazines contend that the Continental is a CT6 competitor due to one thing.. as I pointed out before its the newest larg Cadillac on the market. The Continental is in every way a direct competitor to the XTS. The idea that U would CONTEND any different is idiotic at best.. considering U kno the damn truth. 

In terms of engineering the CT6 weighs less than the Continental while not having to be built on top of a plebeian  platform. The missing elements of the CT6's "pedigree" go hand in hand with the fact that the cars that U are comparing even the Platinum version to from Germany are all minimum $10K more..  As for names.. Give me a effin break. Tell me Soulant (whatever) what did the name Continental mean in  1990.. 2000.. or Lincoln now in the year 2016? Not a effin thing. Believe me.. I was there.. and Lincoln didn't even have any 4-6-8s, serious down-sizing or Cimmarons to explain it. They just fell. 

To the XTS sales. Do tell what the Fleet sales were. While the XTS certainly had fleet deliveries.. Cadillac as a whole only sent about 16% of its vehicles that way.. 84% to retail (2400 of 15300) 

[Suaviloquent]

Yeah, and the CT6 looks like an inflated CTS. What's your point?

 

There is nothing sexy about large sedans. Their measure is determined by their grace, space, and pace. Quiet luxury is definitely the better kind of branding for a large American luxury sedan. Cadillac can dare greatly, but what's the point if they always want to beat the Germans, but fail to stop cutting corners that bring the product down. Their interior is the problem. Why is the Lincoln Continental so handily superior. Sync 3, while rather tame, is worlds better than CUE. And there's more real metal and wood trim in the Conti. The seats are better looking, and have more adjustabilty. And the sound system isn't an upsell of Bose. The things that people feel and touch are done really quite well for a large luxury sedan, not "for a Lincoln." The CT6 can barely convince anyone that's it's interior can even hang with E-Class or the S90. 

Sure, Ford probably saved a ton on money by using the D4. But it's truly surprising how versatile that platform is, and how good the Continental is for being a rather honest car, with real world customers in mind. The CT6 is sure better in most driving/handling related categories. Of which none matter to actual people buying those cars. They buy large sedan for the prestige. 

I've seen countless arguments that go like "yeah, the Conti is better interior wise, but lacks the engineering blah blah, so obviously drives like shit, and also not RWD, so totally inferior, and also Lincoln, no brand cahcet"

I think it's absolutely fantastic that a car can deliver the goods without bespoke engineering. Get more done with less. Efficiency, is it's own form of luxury. Oh, in the end it's just a big Fusion. Yeah, it dam well is, and it out luxos a damn premium Cadillac, and delivers almost exactly the same performance. What does it look on GM, to have gone all-out, to just be a little bit better...in areas that are of no value to the buyer. Really. That's what it is.

Yet the Conti loves to smack those same arguments down, almost all of the enthusiast mags like the way it drives, and love how the AWD system is very quick, allows the sedan to hustle around corners with surprising capability and limits. And Continental is far away, like the distance between how good the Continental name is compared to cheap, subservient, 3rd class, bow down to Germans name the CT6 is...that distance is beyond the visible universe.

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 minute ago, Suaviloquent said:

Yeah, and the CT6 looks like an inflated CTS. What's your point?

 

Um.. the CTS is gorgeous.. not opinion just fact. The CT6 is a better looking version of it. Sweet Lord

[Suaviloquent]

Just now, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

 

U are like that character that River Phoenix played in the movie Stand By Me.. a trouble-maker who always tries to be the voice of reason, very often without any real facts. He got killed trying to break-up a knife fight in the end.

The magazines contend that the Continental is a CT6 competitor due to one thing.. as I pointed out before its the newest larg Cadillac on the market. The Continental is in every way a direct competitor to the XTS. The idea that U would CONTEND any different is idiotic at best.. considering U kno the damn truth. 

In terms of engineering the CT6 weighs less than the Continental while not having to be built on top of a plebeian  platform. The missing elements of the CT6's "pedigree" go hand in hand with the fact that the cars that U are comparing even the Platinum version to from Germany are all minimum $10K more..  As for names.. Give me a effin break. Tell me Soulant (whatever) what did the name Continental mean in  1990.. 2000.. or Lincoln now in the year 2016? Not a effin thing. Believe me.. I was there.. and Lincoln didn't even have any 4-6-8s, serious down-sizing or Cimmarons to explain it. They just fell. 

To the XTS sales. Do tell what the Fleet sales were. While the XTS certainly had fleet deliveries.. Cadillac as a whole only sent about 16% of its vehicles that way.. 84% to retail (2400 of 15300) 

 

You talk smack, but you know to hold your tongue, because damn right there's things I can do here that you can't.  Direct competitor. People will look at Conti, and say it is a direct competitor to BOTH the CT6 and XTS.

 

No one here saying that the XTS is irrelvant. What is nonsense is saying the CT6 and Conti don't compete. They damn well do, because netither the XTS or CT6 can deliver the damn luxury part of the equation. The Conti, blows them out of the water. Hands down, every day, people will get in the Conti and say the interior is better in materials. Style is one thing, but the materials, abosultely in favour of the Conti. Plebian platform?

Why make 3 different car platforms, when you can take 1, and deliver exactly what the customer wants, desires, has unfulfilled NEED for, and save big money, and reap better profits.

You do realize that the Omega platform will give GM a big hangover, and it needs more cars on it for the scale.

[Drew Dowdell]

Nudging this back on topic.... The Continental

[Suaviloquent]

Meh.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Love the fact that my original response was deleted. Anyway.. as to the Continental... Here is an excerpt by Mark Phelan from Detroit Press.. comparing the Lincoln to not only the XTS.. but the Buick Lacrosse.

 

 

Quote

The Continental competes with large front-wheel-drive based luxury sedans like the Buick LaCrosse and Cadillac XTS. It could conceivably also compete with Hyundai’s new Genesis G90, a rear-wheel-drive based large sedan that also hopes to crack the luxury market. Like the Continental, those cars offer all-wheel drive.

The engine produced plenty of power. It’s a heavy car, though. Lincoln only provides the curb weight of a base 3.7-liter front-wheel-drive model, but even that’s a few pounds heavier than Cadillac XTS with similar horsepower. The Continental accelerates well in a straight line, but its heft — and an aging architecture that dates back to when Ford owned Volvo — reveals itself in hard acceleration and quick maneuvers. Lincoln’s adjustable dampers reduce that, but the Continental doesn’t challenge the handling of leading contemporary luxury sedans.

 

[Suaviloquent]

People just do not want to accept that the Conti is one of the few luxury cars that is more than the sum of its parts.

Oh you're still here? Wow. So one guy has one opinion. And the other guy has another.

 

And you post stuff about things Lincoln said the car was never about. 

Are you purposely tanking your ability to argue? 

[Suaviloquent]

Alright, some administration of discipline aside, TaurusSHO is a person of class, please stop muddying this thread. Civil discourse, or get your comments made gone.

 

Ya, okay, you do have some point with the stripper base model Conti, but that car is also pretty affordable too, the ones that actual retail customers will buy will be the 2.7 or 3.0T. And where it pertains to the article here, just keep reaching.

 

And the Lacrosse just got blasted like the CT6 for an inferior interior to the competition. It truly amazes me how, yes, at some functional level all large sedans do compete for sales. But when it comes to direct competitors, there's really not much point in excluding the CT6. Really. Everyone says the Conti isn't worthy, yet it gets almost there performance wise, with blue collar roots, and spanks the Cadillac on luxury on the inside. There's the issue. Cadillac does not understand that their best sedan should have their best interior. Their best interior is in the CTS or Escalade. The CT6 is rife with blatant cheapness, like the leather, the plastics, the switchgear, which you actually don't find in the Lincoln. Strange.

Notice how I'm not saying that Cadillac does not know how to make a luxury interior. They do, they just didn't do it for the CT6. And also, I've said it many times how I like the exterior of the CT6. It is a homerun for Cadillac, but nothing game changing. The Lincoln looks and feels exactly like quiet luxury.

Where do you find the great dare in the CT6? You find it by stripping the sheetmetal and the interior. That's where you find the dare. And only 161 pounds advantage against a bloody Lincoln isn't much of a dare really. And that's on top of me loving the CT6 more than the Lincoln exterior wise, handily. But the Lincoln sweats the details, and has a unique proposition. 

And that is why the Lincoln competes with any large sedan on a functional and practical and in a direct manner.

[TaurusSHO]

3 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

 

You talk smack, but you know to hold your tongue, because damn right there's things I can do here that you can't.  Direct competitor. People will look at Conti, and say it is a direct competitor to BOTH the CT6 and XTS.

 

No one here saying that the XTS is irrelvant. What is nonsense is saying the CT6 and Conti don't compete. They damn well do, because netither the XTS or CT6 can deliver the damn luxury part of the equation. The Conti, blows them out of the water. Hands down, every day, people will get in the Conti and say the interior is better in materials. Style is one thing, but the materials, abosultely in favour of the Conti. Plebian platform?

Why make 3 different car platforms, when you can take 1, and deliver exactly what the customer wants, desires, has unfulfilled NEED for, and save big money, and reap better profits.

You do realize that the Omega platform will give GM a big hangover, and it needs more cars on it for the scale.

That's what I've been saying.  People ultimately shop on price and the CT6 has a huge overlap in price with the Continental.  We can talk about all of the engineering that went into the CT6 and talk about how well it handles, but when the average customer can get a better equipped Continental with a much smoother ride, you can see where the CT6 falters.  The XTS certainly competes with the Continental, but to say the CT6 doesn't is entirely inaccurate. 

[TaurusSHO]

2 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Alright, some administration of discipline aside, TaurusSHO is a person of class, please stop muddying this thread. Civil discourse, or get your comments made gone.

Thanks for the kind words.   Casa doesn't bother me though.  He's like that crazy uncle that's fun to be around just because of how crazy he is. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

7 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Perspective. Any new car... almost any new car... looks good to a person driving a non-new car.. especially when they are looking to have a new car. The Conti is plain and boring. 

Did you honestly just try to qualify his appreciation for the looks of the new Conti, so as not to give Lincoln a single ounce of credit.

[ccap41]

8 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Perspective. Any new car... almost any new car... looks good to a person driving a non-new car.. especially when they are looking to have a new car. The Conti is plain and boring. 

It's plain but not boring, imo. 

Perspective could also be said about Caddy's more aggressive hard lines built in. I like them but not everybody else does. It's a more polarizing style compared to the Conti. Conti is plain and simple but it has less polarizing style. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Conti's style is clean and contemporary.  I think it will stand the test of time.  

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the Continental styling is in the unusual position of being at once classic and also ahead of its time. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

11 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think the Continental styling is in the unusual position of being at once classic and also ahead of its time. 

Its a mish mash of cars gone by, and the execution leaves much to be desired. It looks like it stole its rear from a Saab 9-5, its front from Audi and Bentley.. its sides from BLAAAH.

It may actually appear to be ahead of its time for no other reason than one can't really tell whether its coming or going.. 

12 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Did you honestly just try to qualify his appreciation for the looks of the new Conti, so as not to give Lincoln a single ounce of credit.

Credit for what? As a luxury buyer I can not for the life of me see anything about the Continental worth buying. That's kinda sick.. considering I can actually find something about the Lexus GS worth buying.. and I hate.. with a passion.. anything Toyota

[Cmicasa the Great]

Quote

The rest of the interior, too, is hugely improved from the last-generation LaCrosse, with much nicer materials including more soft-touch surfaces and real wood on pricier models.

Quote

We’re not quite as convinced by the LaCrosse’s interior. Material quality isn’t the issue—nicely grained plastics and soft leather cultivate an upscale vibe—but the dashboard design makes the interior feel a lot less spacious than it is

Quote

Even the most basic LaCrosse, at $32,990, offers generous standard content. That includes a high-quality cabin with simulated leather tastefully stitched together to cover ample padding on the doors, dash, and center console. The wood trim is convincing and tastefully applied, though there was just enough sunlight poking through on an overcast Oregon day to reveal typical GM sun-reflecting metallic trim.

and to the hater mod.. what pray tell is the issue with Buick's Lacrosse interior? Please cherry pick away to find a negative commentary. 

[Drew Dowdell]

19 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

• Its a mish mash of cars gone by, and the execution leaves much to be desired. It looks like it stole its rear from a Saab 9-5, its front from Audi and Bentley.. its sides from BLAAAH.

It may actually appear to be ahead of its time for no other reason than one can't really tell whether its coming or going.. 

 

1... what in the hell did you do to that post?

2. I'm not seeing any of what you describe in the Continental... certainly not the 9-5.  There might be a touch of Bentley in there, but there are certainly worse comparisons to be made.

One thing it does look though is bold. I will say that it is bolder looking than the CT6 and any of the Genesis line at the moment, although the Genesis line is growing on me.  I like it far better than anything at Lexus as well. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

It's plain but not boring, imo. 

Perspective could also be said about Caddy's more aggressive hard lines built in. I like them but not everybody else does. It's a more polarizing style compared to the Conti. Conti is plain and simple but it has less polarizing style. 

boring
colorless
drab
plain
dreary
dry
dull
flat
insipid
lackluster
lifeless
tedious
unanimated
uninspired
vapid
wearisome

 

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

1... what in the hell did you do to that post?

2. I'm not seeing any of what you describe in the Continental... certainly not the 9-5.  There might be a touch of Bentley in there, but there are certainly worse comparisons to be made.

One thing it does look though is bold. I will say that it is bolder looking than the CT6 and any of the Genesis line at the moment, although the Genesis line is growing on me.  I like it far better than anything at Lexus as well. 

 

Saab looks better, despite being 7 years older

[Drew Dowdell]

The Saab has a very distinct roofline that the Continental doesn't (and shouldnt) have. If you're just talking about the shape of the tail lights, that's a design trend on just about everything these days. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Saab has a very distinct roofline that the Continental doesn't (and shouldnt) have. If you're just talking about the shape of the tail lights, that's a design trend on just about everything these days. 

I'm talking about from trunk down to under valence. They are very similar. No never-mind tho. Saab is a better design. Its a clear case of the Continental stealing from various manufacturers and still coming off as stale.

CT6 is not bold??? Only because its been seen before in the ATS and CTS since 2012. They are BOLD.  Doesn't mean CT6 is not BOLD. Fact is U see a CT6 coming at U and U kno its a Cadillac as it absolutely catches your eye. The Lincoln has to go thru your mind's catalog of a 100 cars before U distinctly can pin point what the hell it is. Nothing unique about it. Nothing. Driving one would make me feel no more special than hoping in an MKS

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

7 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

Credit for what? As a luxury buyer I can not for the life of me see anything about the Continental worth buying. That's kinda sick.. considering I can actually find something about the Lexus GS worth buying.. and I hate.. with a passion.. anything Toyota

 

The Conti is a great update to the MKS and another chapter in Lincoln's rebirth.  Sales suggest Lincoln has a hit on their hands.  Can't wait for the next chapter.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Drew Dowdell
talk about cars, not people

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

 

The Conti is a great update to the MKS and another chapter in Lincoln's rebirth.  Sales suggest Lincoln has a hit on their hands.  Can't wait for the next chapter.

Of course U say that.. U supposedly helped engineer it.  I would love to see the sales breakdown of the MK... er I mean Continental.  Like the Mustang I bet fleet is a huge reason for its few hundred more sales over the more expensive CT6.  That and MKS traders who had to get the hell out of  yesterday's Free Willy.  

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Of course U say that.. U supposedly helped engineer it.  I would love to see the sales breakdown of the MK... er I mean Continental.  Like the Mustang I bet fleet is a huge reason for its few hundred more sales over the more expensive CT6.  That and MKS traders who had to get the hell out of  yesterday's Free Willy.  

Like many, I would like proof of the Conti selling more fleet than CT6, until then just excuses is what I hear for it outselling it so soon, and Mustang is an entirely different product that you are comparing as some sort of proof, and the fleet numbers are only 5% more than Camaro.  Hardly worth all the excuses we have been hearing for so very long.  In the end, it is GM who has a massive glut of products that it will have to deal with.  How it chooses to do so will be interesting, but perhaps they can take some cues from Ford who seems to profit quite well as a smaller corporation.

[surreal1272]

The Mustang was selling more than 30% to fleet while the Camaro was selling 8%. Feel free to research that (one only needs to see the drop off in sales of the Mustang from July to September alone to reach the obvious conclusion). Also, Lincoln overall fleet was more than double that of Cadillac so it's a reasoanable assumption that the Conti is selling more fleet models as well. This isn't a dig on Lincoln but just a statement of simple facts. It has been well documented that Fords fleet numbers were higher than the industry average while GM was below average.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/93158922/?client=safari

Pay attention to the third paragraph here, regarding how heavy their fleet numbers were earlier this year  

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160401/RETAIL01/304019981/ford-outsells-gm-on-higher-fleet-shipments

 

and again, the Conti is priced and packaged more in line with the XTS, which sold more last month than the Conti and CT6 combined.

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

If XTS is outselling Continental... even if they're both fleet... that's a problem.  (note, I didn't bother to go look up the numbers... I said "if")

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If XTS is outselling Continental... even if they're both fleet... that's a problem.  (note, I didn't bother to go look up the numbers... I said "if")

Per the sales thread for last month. 

XTS-2653

Continental-1419

CT6-1169

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

GM fans would be beating their chests mercilessly (or somehow more than they already are) if CT6 was outselling the Conti. Does anyone really doubt that?

 

And newsflash, Lincoln fleet does not equal Ford fleet.  

Ford fleet takes advantage of very profitable commercial sales.

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

GM fans would be beating their chests mercilessly (or somehow more than they already are) if CT6 was outselling the Conti. Does anyone really doubt that?

 

And newsflash, Lincoln fleet does not equal Ford fleet.  

Ford fleet takes advantage of very profitable commercial sales.

 

Who cares? I'm not going to speak for anyone else but on that logic, would Ford fans be gloating about Conti sales if we were comparing it to the XTS alone or if (heaven forbid) is lost to the higher priced CT6?

 

It goes both ways Wings. 

Oh and newsflash, never said it did but it's not hard to make a reasonable assumption about such things unless you are beholdened to the company you are trying to defend. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[William Maley]

Just now, Wings4Life said:

And newsflash, Lincoln fleet does not equal Ford fleet.  
Ford fleet takes advantage of very profitable commercial sales.

 

So by this logic, Cadillac fleet doesn't equal GM fleet?...

Fleet sales are fleet sales.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Just now, William Maley said:

So by this logic, Cadillac fleet doesn't equal GM fleet?...

Fleet sales are fleet sales.

Exactamundo!!!!

Cadillac is it's own brand with it's own percentages, where GM overall is commercial heavy also.

My point again, I am waiting to see fleet numbers for Conti vs CT6, that casa stated was probably biased......due to Mustang fleet numbers.  IOW, one has ZERO to do with the other.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

The Conti appears to be a complete success for the Brand, replacing a stale old product.  And they could have kept the MKS name, but instead wisely brought back a storied name.  Kudos to them for that as well instead of unknown alphanumerics, And again, Conti is the last interim product in their Phase I rebirth, on a long term plan.  

But regardless of front loading or back loading of specific fleet percents, both companies have to balance carefully to the all important bottom line.  I see both brands doing it differently, yet both experiencing growth.  

Edited December 18, 2016 by Drew Dowdell
We are not a GM specific site.

[Drew Dowdell]

15 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

GM fans would be beating their chests mercilessly (or somehow more than they already are) if CT6 was outselling the Conti. Does anyone really doubt that?

 

And newsflash, Lincoln fleet does not equal Ford fleet.  

Ford fleet takes advantage of very profitable commercial sales.

Being a higher priced car, if the CT6 was outselling the Continental, that would point to a problem as well. The Continental bases almost exactly $10,000 less... I expect it to sell better than CT6. Cadillac's average transaction prices are at their highest ever too, so it's unlikely that it is mostly base models that are moving.

But even XTS is outselling Continental and it is priced right up against it. That's a problem.

[Drew Dowdell]

10 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

The Conti appears to be a complete success for the Brand, replacing a stale old product.  And they could have kept the MKS name, but instead wisely brought back a storied name.  Kudos to them for that as well instead of unknown alphanumerics, And again, Conti is the last interim product in their Phase I rebirth, on a long term plan.  

But regardless of front loading or back loading of specific fleet percents, both companies have to balance carefully to the all important bottom line.  I see both brands doing it differently, yet both experiencing growth.  

It does appear to be a success so far. I certainly wouldn't refuse a Continental out of my driveway. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Being a higher priced car, if the CT6 was outselling the Continental, that would point to a problem as well. The Continental bases almost exactly $10,000 less... I expect it to sell better than CT6. Cadillac's average transaction prices are at their highest ever too, so it's unlikely that it is mostly base models that are moving.

But even XTS is outselling Continental and it is priced right up against it. That's a problem.

Has anyone seen avg ATP's on both?  I know the Conti sells very high content models.  Just curious there.  My guess, they are closer than people suggest.

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Like many, I would like proof of the Conti selling more fleet than CT6, until then just excuses is what I hear for it outselling it so soon, and Mustang is an entirely different product that you are comparing as some sort of proof, and the fleet numbers are only 5% more than Camaro.  Hardly worth all the excuses we have been hearing for so very long.  In the end, it is GM who has a massive glut of products that it will have to deal with.  How it chooses to do so will be interesting, but perhaps they can take some cues from Ford who seems to profit quite well as a smaller corporation.

As Surreal points out.. the Mustang was 30%+ in Fleet sales to Rental for a nice portion of the year. Couple that with a lower price and more availability.. not to mention a Corvette on the lot sitting across from the Camaro and yeah.. I can see where the Mustang was sales champ. 

Also I'm seriously weary of any thoughts that the CT6 and Continental are competitors.. let alone that the CT6 is racking up Fleet orders while the XTS is still on the lot.. bought and paid for over and over by itself.. not even including Impala and LaX. Also.. last I checked.. GM was doing quite nice in profits using their current strategy

[Drew Dowdell]

17 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Has anyone seen avg ATP's on both?  I know the Conti sells very high content models.  Just curious there.  My guess, they are closer than people suggest.

I don't have stats by model, but Cadillac has one of the highest ATPs in the entire segment, beating even BMW and Audi..  so I'm betting that they're beating Lincoln too. JDN is on record saying that he's fine with lower volume as long as profits and ATP are up.  Selling "the most" isn't as important to him as selling "the most profitable".  It's exactly the opposite of MB which is now whoring out the Benz name for $275 a month with zero down just to chase volume. 

 The Continental is likely to be the highest contributor to Lincoln's ATP increase since Navigator sales are so low (just 677 units last month).

I've stated before, I don't mind if Lincoln or Cadillac have lower sales as long as they have premium priced sales.  I don't want everyone on the block having a Cadillac or Lincoln because then if I buy one, it isn't as special. It's the same reason I didn't buy a 3-series back in 2004... you can't drift a Mustang in Pittsburgh without hitting a pack of 323xi. Back in 2004 they were as common as a Civic or Grand Am. 

[surreal1272]

The CT6 starts at $10K more than the Conti and the gap is even larger on top tier models. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If XTS is outselling Continental... even if they're both fleet... that's a problem.  (note, I didn't bother to go look up the numbers... I said "if")

Damn right it is. It cost more. Its been on the market since 2012.. It has older tech... Its not even in line with current Cadillac styling.. still essentially looking like the previous generation of Caddys like SRX. 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Damn right it is. It cost more. Its been on the market since 2012.. It has older tech... Its not even in line with current Cadillac styling.. still essentially looking like the previous generation of Caddys like SRX. 

No, the XTS is only $800 more than the Continental... that's not a significant enough difference to matter in this segment.... for the purposes's of argument the Continental and XTS are base priced the same. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

GM fans would be beating their chests mercilessly (or somehow more than they already are) if CT6 was outselling the Conti. Does anyone really doubt that?

 

And newsflash, Lincoln fleet does not equal Ford fleet.  

Ford fleet takes advantage of very profitable commercial sales.

I would, but logic dictates that the CT6 is also being cross-shopped with XTS due to them both being large.. CTS is being cross-shopped with XTS due to similar price. Its Cadillac's problem and they are addressing it within a year. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No, the XTS is only $800 more than the Continental... that's not a significant enough difference to matter in this segment.... for the purposes's of argument the Continental and XTS are base priced the same. 

And that has been a portion of my point all thru-out this thread.. despite some people's input. The Cars are so closely geared towards one another that its insanity to say that because their is another Caddy on the lot that the Lincoln is a direct competitor to anything other than the XTS.. which was the MKS's rival hands down. It would be like comparing the Camry to the Impala for sales championing of Toyota while the Avalon was avail.

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

The Conti appears to be a complete success for the Brand, replacing a stale old product.  And they could have kept the MKS name, but instead wisely brought back a storied name.  Kudos to them for that as well instead of unknown alphanumerics, And again, Conti is the last interim product in their Phase I rebirth, on a long term plan.  

But regardless of front loading or back loading of specific fleet percents, both companies have to balance carefully to the all important bottom line.  I see both brands doing it differently, yet both experiencing growth.  

So is Lincoln using that same strategy on the rest of the products?? Because if not.. One might be inclined to think just the opposite in terms of positive vs negatives in confusing the public. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

51 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

As Surreal points out.. the Mustang was 30%+ in Fleet sales to Rental for a nice portion of the year. Couple that with a lower price and more availability.. not to mention a Corvette on the lot sitting across from the Camaro and yeah.. I can see where the Mustang was sales champ. 

Also I'm seriously weary of any thoughts that the CT6 and Continental are competitors.. let alone that the CT6 is racking up Fleet orders while the XTS is still on the lot.. bought and paid for over and over by itself.. not even including Impala and LaX. Also.. last I checked.. GM was doing quite nice in profits using their current strategy

And as I stated, what surreal pointed out has zero to do with Cadillac or Lincoln fleet numbers.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Wings4Life

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

51 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't have stats by model, but Cadillac has one of the highest ATPs in the entire segment, beating even BMW and Audi..  so I'm betting that they're beating Lincoln too. JDN is on record saying that he's fine with lower volume as long as profits and ATP are up.  Selling "the most" isn't as important to him as selling "the most profitable".  It's exactly the opposite of MB which is now whoring out the Benz name for $275 a month with zero down just to chase volume. 

 The Continental is likely to be the highest contributor to Lincoln's ATP increase since Navigator sales are so low (just 677 units last month).

I've stated before, I don't mind if Lincoln or Cadillac have lower sales as long as they have premium priced sales.  I don't want everyone on the block having a Cadillac or Lincoln because then if I buy one, it isn't as special. It's the same reason I didn't buy a 3-series back in 2004... you can't drift a Mustang in Pittsburgh without hitting a pack of 323xi. Back in 2004 they were as common as a Civic or Grand Am. 

Cadillac's higher ATP happens when you sell several SUV's that reach $100K.  I was curious about specific cars, which is the focus here.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

47 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I would, but logic dictates that the CT6 is also being cross-shopped with XTS due to them both being large.. CTS is being cross-shopped with XTS due to similar price. Its Cadillac's problem and they are addressing it within a year. 

Actually, XTS, CTS and CT6 are all being cross shopped. Which begs the question......why hurt Buick with the XTS.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

......and before someone cues up Buick sales beating Lincoln, let's recall that Lincoln does not sell a gazillion $22K MSRP vehicles.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

42 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

So is Lincoln using that same strategy on the rest of the products?? Because if not.. One might be inclined to think just the opposite in terms of positive vs negatives in confusing the public. 

The MKZ does confuse things a bit, but I like it much better than Zephyr.  

I doubt that it is more confusing than the CTS6X.

 

And soon, Aviator name will help return some order to the Ford.

 

BTW, saw Rogue One.  Not bad.  I give it a 4 star.

[Drew Dowdell]

23 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Cadillac's higher ATP happens when you sell several SUV's that reach $100K.  I was curious about specific cars, which is the focus here.

One SUV sells that high, and while Escalade sales are good, there aren't enough of them to pull the ATP that high on its own.

22 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Actually, XTS, CTS and CT6 are all being cross shopped. Which begs the question......why hurt Buick with the XTS.

We already know XTS is dead man walking at this point. It gets one small refresh and that's it.