Chevrolet News:GM Is Ready To Lose Close To $9,000 On Every Bolt Sold

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Thanks for the year old article. But actually, Ford started their next electrification progression 2 years ago.  Which means they are about 1.5 years from starting to roll it all out.  I just hope they find a true value path to BEV that does not rely soley on massive and costly batteries.  New 115 mile Focus  BEV can get a 75% charge in only 30 min and costs $10K less than Bolt. That's a nice start, but they have a way to go. 

And I will continue to say it, PHEV is the way to go.

Your Welcome, I searched Ford.com on the corporate side for updated EV info and could not find anything, this was the most current I could find, So figure they started a year before this. Hopefully show off at the auto shows this year their EV concept and have it in production by 2018 ahead of Tesla as I doubt and I think we all would agree Tesla has yet to deliver anything on time, so I figure we will see Ford's 200+ mile EV out around the same time as Nissan Leaf 2.0 and the update to Ioniq from Hyundai.

[surreal1272]

Speaking of PHEVs. 

2016 YTD sales

Chevrolet Volt-21k (all of which are making a profit unlike the first gen Volt)

Ford C Max (hybrid and PHEV)-17k

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

200 mile range is pretty easy, just keep stuffing a bigger battery in it. The engineering work to be done, is to find a way to give a balance of range, value to the consumer and profit to the automaker.  Then I will be impressed. I would rather see 150 mile range, cheaper price (less than $30K) and faster charging.  That is far more useful than a bit more range.  

 

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Speaking of PHEVs. 

2016 YTD sales

Chevrolet Volt-21k

Ford C Max (hybrid and PHEV)-17k

Continue speaking, because you forgot their other PHEV, which has a HUGE sales gain recently.

In total electrification sales, Ford/Lincoln has been crushing all of GM for years.

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

200 mile range is pretty easy, just keep stuffing a bigger battery in it. The engineering work to be done, is to find a way to give a balance of range, value to the consumer and profit to the automaker.  Then I will be impressed. I would rather see 150 mile range, cheaper price (less than $30K) and faster charging.  That is far more useful than a bit more range.  

 

Continue speaking, because you forgot their other PHEV, which has a HUGE sales gain recently.

In total electrification sales, Ford/Lincoln has been crushing all of GM for years.

Past is past. Welcome to the present. Fact is the Volt outsells any single Ford PHEV right now. Having a bunch of half ass EV efforts means precisely dick. 

 

Oh continue speaking BS like you've been doing the last few days. It's certainly gotten you this far. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

Yes, Ford did jump in early with using the Toyota system and then moving into their own when ready. They have done great with PHEV and I am happy that Ford is doing well. As long as we have some US companies in the Auto industry, I am happy.

Level 3 fast charge is going to really change over the next few years and I think we will see a much faster move to 100kWh battery packs as the density of Lithium Ion improves.

I think the Euro fast charge system will end up being a backbone for the rest of the world  to build. I can see these high end kWh chargers replacing one line of Pumps at gas stations. Then EV's pull in, got grab a coffee, snakes, etc. 5-15 min later depending on how much charge they want, they are out of there. I see the day when charging will be no different than pumping.

Exciting future for everyone.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

So if you want to save fuel costs (42mpg, 97mpge), reduce emissions in a proven engine (PZEV), in a roomy CUV like package using a proven and smooth hybrid system rolling on a proven chassis, Absolutely Zero range anxiety and great value through low price at $27,125 MSRP.....then the new C-Max PHEV needs to be considered.

 

 

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yes, Ford did jump in early with using the Toyota system and then moving into their own when ready. They have done great with PHEV and I am happy that Ford is doing well. As long as we have some US companies in the Auto industry, I am happy.

Level 3 fast charge is going to really change over the next few years and I think we will see a much faster move to 100kWh battery packs as the density of Lithium Ion improves.

I think the Euro fast charge system will end up being a backbone for the rest of the world  to build. I can see these high end kWh chargers replacing one line of Pumps at gas stations. Then EV's pull in, got grab a coffee, snakes, etc. 5-15 min later depending on how much charge they want, they are out of there. I see the day when charging will be no different than pumping.

Exciting future for everyone.

Ford did not use the Toyota hybrid system.

[G. David Felt]

This is an awesome write up. Bolt first, Ford Focus and then Nissan Leaf in a 1, 2, 3 lineup of cheapest to most expensive Mile per dollar for EV Auto's. Have to say Inside EV did a great job with gathering the info to compare.

http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-ford-focus-electric-and-nissan-leaf-with-lowest-price-per-mile-of-range/

[G. David Felt]

11 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Ford did not use the Toyota hybrid system.

I am going based on what was in the news back in 2004 when Toyota and Ford held press conferences and said they would use the Toyota Hybrid system as they worked together on building the next generation system that they would both use.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/business/ford-to-use-toyota-s-hybrid-technology.html?_r=0

http://www.autonews.com/article/20040309/REG/403090702/ford-to-use-toyota-hybrid-system-technology

http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/ford-and-toyota-partner-on-hybrid-technology-120396

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/ford+toyota+hybrid+trucks+suvs+telematics.htm

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/remarks+ford+toyota+uchiyamada.htm

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I am going based on what was in the news back in 2004 when Toyota and Ford held press conferences and said they would use the Toyota Hybrid system as they worked together on building the next generation system that they would both use.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/business/ford-to-use-toyota-s-hybrid-technology.html?_r=0

http://www.autonews.com/article/20040309/REG/403090702/ford-to-use-toyota-hybrid-system-technology

http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/ford-and-toyota-partner-on-hybrid-technology-120396

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/ford+toyota+hybrid+trucks+suvs+telematics.htm

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/remarks+ford+toyota+uchiyamada.htm

 

They did not use toyota's  hybrid system.

I don' care how many links you provide.

Ford developed their own system, and when they progressed it enough it was noted that it had similarities that encroached on Toyota patents. Japan was notorious for locking down every aspect of their development, something Ford is finally doing as well.

So Ford had to then decide, do we revise the design or pay out patent licensing fees.  Pretty typical in the business on new technology.  They obviously paid it, and ignorant journalists write what they want, and ignorant people believe what they want. And it was also a package deal, where we provided Toyota other patent licences, as Ford is the leader in catalyst development.

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Wings4Life

[G. David Felt]

31 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

They did not use toyota's  hybrid system.

I don' care how many links you provide.

Ford developed their own system, and when they progressed it enough it was noted that it had similarities that encroached on Toyota patents. Japan was notorious for locking down every aspect of their development, something Ford is finally doing as well.

So Ford had to then decide, do we revise the design or pay out patent licensing fees.  Pretty typical in the business on new technology.  They obviously paid it, and ignorant journalists write what they want, and ignorant people believe what they want. And it was also a package deal, where we provided Toyota other patent licences, as Ford is the leader in catalyst development.

That is fine, interesting take, but then why would Toyota have all these announcements in their media section that covers this too?

If Ford did not use their system at the start, I would think they would protest it big time and in court. As you stated their system was similar to Toyota where they then signed agreements. This will always bring up the conspiracy theorist in people.

No matter what, we can agree that it is great to have some auto's even if they are compliance auto's now as they move forward with a bigger deeper selection of auto's.

Ford could and should push beyond GM as I know many would love a Truck EV and Full size SUV EV.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Past is past. Welcome to the present. Fact is the Volt outsells any single Ford PHEV right now. Having a bunch of half ass EV efforts means precisely dick. 

 

Oh continue speaking BS like you've been doing the last few days. It's certainly gotten you this far. 

What a dork

Picks C-Max to compare when Fusion is a sedan PHEV like Volt and sells far more.

 

Fail

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Oh and btw, one should combine sales totals with hybrid and PHEV, because they are the same exact vehicle, except for battery capacity and plug.

[surreal1272]

55 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Oh and btw, one should combine sales totals with hybrid and PHEV, because they are the same exact vehicle, except for battery capacity and plug.

They were. Those numbers were pulled from Fords own numbers. Thanks for your concern though. 

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

What a dork

Picks C-Max to compare when Fusion is a sedan PHEV like Volt and sells far more.

 

Fail

Really? The Fusion Energi has sold just over 14,000 for year, putting it squarely behind the Volt. 

In fact you'd have to combine sales of the Fusion and the C-Max Energi to get a few hundreds above the one Volt for the year  

You're welcome in advance. 

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

 

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

Chevy Bolt EV battery could lose 40% of its capacity over 8 years

While a 10-percent range decrease won't be much to worry about, forty percent of 238 miles is 95.2, which would leave just 143 miles in a 2017 Bolt in 2025. Any eight-year-old car will have problems compared to a new model, but there are two big questions here. First, since the Bolt EV is the one that GM wants to promote to a much wider audience than the typical EV buyer – we have to wonder if this sort of range decrease will be acceptable to the masses. Second, is the phrasing "as much as 40%" something that the engineers predict will happen or is that just the lawyers covering the company's collective behind?

* someone may have posted this, but I'm not about to go through and search to verify 

 

 

[surreal1272]

Even the Spark EV has an almost four fold advantage over the Focus EV (just over 3,000 to 800 respectively). 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

28 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

They were. Those numbers were pulled from Fords own numbers. Thanks for your concern though. 

Really? The Fusion Energi has sold just over 14,000 for year, putting it squarely behind the Volt. 

In fact you'd have to combine sales of the Fusion and the C-Max Energi to get a few hundreds above the one Volt for the year  

Youre welcome in advance. 

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Fusion hybrid and PHEV and C-Max hybrid and PHEV far exceed volt sales.

WTF are you even talking about.

27 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

Chevy Bolt EV battery could lose 40% of its capacity over 8 years

While a 10-percent range decrease won't be much to worry about, forty percent of 238 miles is 95.2, which would leave just 143 miles in a 2017 Bolt in 2025. Any eight-year-old car will have problems compared to a new model, but there are two big questions here. First, since the Bolt EV is the one that GM wants to promote to a much wider audience than the typical EV buyer – we have to wonder if this sort of range decrease will be acceptable to the masses. Second, is the phrasing "as much as 40%" something that the engineers predict will happen or is that just the lawyers covering the company's collective behind?

* someone may have posted this, but I'm not about to go through and search to verify 

 

 

This got totally debunked by surreal, who talked to a Tesla owner and said otherwise.

Come on coz, catch up would ya

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

This link dates back to may, but not much has changed in terms of offerings in hybrids.

Clearly, Ford leads GM, unlike what surreal is trying to pedal here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/557288/sales-of-hybrid-vehicles-in-the-us-by-manufacturer/

[surreal1272]

21 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Fusion hybrid and PHEV and C-Max hybrid and PHEV far exceed volt sales.

WTF are you even talking about.

This got totally debunked by surreal, who talked to a Tesla owner and said otherwise.

Come on coz, catch up would ya

Don't change the rules to suit your weak argument. I am comparing a PHEV Chevy to two Ford PHEV, of which the Fusion is not a part of (hence the factual link provided for your education). Ask yourself this. Why in the world would anyone compare sales of a PHEV with a hybrid? Hell, if you want to go that route, then Prius spanks all of them.

 

Try and keep up yourself before calling me a dork. 

 

And the link your buddy provided is about the Bolt, not the Teslas I was talking about. Again, try and keep up here before claiming a superiority that doesn't exist. 

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

This link dates back to may, but not much has changed in terms of offerings in hybrids.

Clearly, Ford leads GM, unlike what surreal is trying to pedal here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/557288/sales-of-hybrid-vehicles-in-the-us-by-manufacturer/

Never, not once have I said that GM outsells Ford on hybrids. Not once. That's a scenario you created to paint Ford as superior. Take your condescending BS and stick it back in the deck before you hurt yourself. 

 

Good thing I'm not a Toyota employee or you would not have jack $h! to say about hybrid sales. 

 

Just go pedal yourself. 

[surreal1272]

As always, thanks for your support @FordCosworth. I always know that I can count on you. 

Now, about the actual subject...

 

Any projections on how many Bolts GM expects to sell @Drew Dowdell?

[FordCosworth]

9 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

As always, thanks for your support @FordCosworth. I always know that I can count on you. 

Now, about the actual subject...

 

Any projections on how many Bolts GM expects to sell @Drew Dowdell?

You're welcome

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Don't change the rules to suit your weak argument. I am comparing a PHEV Chevy to two Ford PHEV, of which the Fusion is not a part of (hence the factual link provided for your education). Ask yourself this. Why in the world would anyone compare sales of a PHEV with a hybrid? Hell, if you want to go that route, then Prius spanks all of them.

 

Try and keep up yourself before calling me a dork. 

 

And the link your buddy provided is about the Bolt, not the Teslas I was talking about. Again, try and keep up here before claiming a superiority that doesn't exist. 

Volt is a sedan, and this should be compared to Fusion hybrid/PHEV.

You are the one that decided to compare Volt to whatever you wanted, and you made your own rule.  Now you state nobody can change it???? LMAO  Effff that.

I simply stated that total hybrid/PHEV sales is what should be compared, .  Customers who consider going that route, compare all and consider all.  And the only freaking difference is battery capacity.  

Now man the efff up dork, and admit GM trails Ford by a significant margin.

Or, take your little volt comparison which means nothing, and be happy.

24 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Never, not once have I said that GM outsells Ford on hybrids. Not once. That's a scenario you created to paint Ford as superior. Take your condescending BS and stick it back in the deck before you hurt yourself. 

 

Good thing I'm not a Toyota employee or you would not have jack $h! to say about hybrid sales. 

 

Just go pedal yourself. 

Never said you did say GM outsells Ford on hybrids.

 

Nice try.

 

And that is always GM fans response when Ford is mentioned as beating them in electrification, the Toyota card.

 

LMAO

 

 

Oh boy, just realized, surreal will call in my dork remark to mods.

Oh no

[surreal1272]

20 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Volt is a sedan, and this should be compared to Fusion hybrid/PHEV.

You are the one that decided to compare Volt to whatever you wanted, and you made your own rule.  Now you state nobody can change it???? LMAO  Effff that.

I simply stated that total hybrid/PHEV sales is what should be compared, .  Customers who consider going that route, compare all and consider all.  And the only freaking difference is battery capacity.  

Now man the efff up dork, and admit GM trails Ford by a significant margin.

Or, take your little volt comparison which means nothing, and be happy.

Never said you did say GM outsells Ford on hybrids.

 

Nice try.

 

And that is always GM fans response when Ford is mentioned as beating them in electrification, the Toyota card.

 

LMAO

 

 

Oh boy, just realized, surreal will call in my dork remark to mods.

Oh no

You realized wrong as always (I'm still waiting on proof of this long held belief of yours that I'm a GM fan being that I've never owned even one).  I have said nothing because you mean nothing. I'll leave you be so that you can put that chain back on since it flew off from all that backpedaling you just did. 

Now again, back to the Bolt (and away from the usual meaningless insults from the peanut gallery)...

[surreal1272]

And are you going to get your panties in a know if I don't "man the eff up"? Seriously. My twelve year old niece posts with more maturity than you, supposed 51 year old adult "man". 

[FAPTurbo]

gm continues its creative trend of ruining its own products' image before release. yes it's to cover their ass but 40% looks so bad lol. 

per battery degradation, Tesla's have averaged a 2.3 mile loss for every 10,000 miles. 

http://www.teslacentral.com/worried-about-tesla-battery-degradation-its-23-miles-every-100000-driven

http://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php

[surreal1272]

Just now, bigpoolog said:

gm continues its creative trend of ruining its own products' image before release. yes it's to cover their ass but 40% looks so bad lol. 

per battery degradation, Tesla's have averaged a 2.3 mile loss for every 10,000 miles. 

http://www.teslacentral.com/worried-about-tesla-battery-degradation-its-23-miles-every-100000-driven

http://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php

So right at a 10% drop at 100k miles and nowhere near 40%. Sounds about right. 

[ccap41]

The 40% loss is just how every manufacturer will say if your engine burns up to 1qt of oil every thousand miles it is still "normal". Just don't buy an Audi EV. lol

Basically, it shouldn't happen and is just there to cover their ass. 

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The 40% loss is just how every manufacturer will say if your engine burns up to 1qt of oil every thousand miles it is still "normal". Just don't buy an Audi EV. lol

Basically, it shouldn't happen and is just there to cover their ass. 

Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

[A Horse With No Name]

42 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

Agreed! From an intellectually honest standpoint, the EV has a bright future.

Edited December 10, 2016 by A Horse With No Name

[A Horse With No Name]

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

I am going based on what was in the news back in 2004 when Toyota and Ford held press conferences and said they would use the Toyota Hybrid system as they worked together on building the next generation system that they would both use.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/business/ford-to-use-toyota-s-hybrid-technology.html?_r=0

http://www.autonews.com/article/20040309/REG/403090702/ford-to-use-toyota-hybrid-system-technology

http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/ford-and-toyota-partner-on-hybrid-technology-120396

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/ford+toyota+hybrid+trucks+suvs+telematics.htm

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/remarks+ford+toyota+uchiyamada.htm

 

Since you are willing to cite credible sources you win this argument IMHO.

[oldshurst442]

42 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Agreed! From an intellectually honest standpoint, the EV has a bright future.

Its so bright, that EVs gotta wear shades.

[Drew Dowdell]

10 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

I talked to Tesla owners too, and they said mileage went up.

I swear.

Oh, and I saw several driving by, so I know too

I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

I dont mean anything by this...nor does it have anything to do with the subject at hand...and you may or maynot know...but Id like to point out anyway as an informative footnote that the Altima Hybrid was also sold in Quebec. I dont know if it was sold elsewhere in Canada, but Im 100% sure it was sold in Quebec.

Edited December 10, 2016 by oldshurst442

[FordCosworth]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

I'll be testing out a Gen 2 3.5L EcoBoost 10spd combo F-150 early in the New Year!

With all positives I've read, I'm curious to try one out. 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

Real world experience matters. My experience with turbo DI engines as a replacement for larger displacement engines with more cylinders hasn't lived up to the hype. 

When I go with a truck, it's going to have 8 cylinders, even if it's a Ford.

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont mean anything by this...nor does it have anything to do with the subject at hand...and you may or maynot know...but Id like to point out anyway as an informative footnote that the Altima Hybrid was also sold in Quebec. I dont know if it was sold elsewhere in Canada, but Im 100% sure it was sold in Quebec.

Could be. I only know of the US markets it was sold in.

[A Horse With No Name]

7 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

I'll be testing out a Gen 2 3.5L EcoBoost 10spd combo F-150 early in the New Year!

With all positives I've read, I'm curious to try one out. 

 

Let us know what you think, I for one would value your feedback.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

11 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

My agenda?  I am here discussing that facts as I know them and I am 100% consistent on them. Exactly what kind of agenda would I have....try to discourage sales of them?  

 From my perspective, you are the one making a big deal and you are the one going in every direction trying to prove a point.

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Real world experience matters. My experience with turbo DI engines as a replacement for larger displacement engines with more cylinders hasn't lived up to the hype. 

When I go with a truck, it's going to have 8 cylinders, even if it's a Ford.

Could be. I only know of the US markets it was sold in.

Ecoboost F150 is very good and worth a look.

Would own an Ecoboost F150 before I would own a Malibu with its tiny turbo...

...but then you know me...I would own A John Cooper Works Mini S before I owned ether an F150 or Malibu!

9 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

Ecoboost does deliver in spades...

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

Quoted for truth!

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Ecoboost F150 is very good and worth a look.

I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Hybrid and electric batteries deliver...Just like the Blue Jackets delivered last night and knocked down the Redwings 4 to 1...

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

The 6.2 is really nice.  One of the SCCA guys I know trailers all over the country with one and just adores it. Hard to go wrong with the vehicles you are talking about.

[oldshurst442]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either.  I'd really rather have a V8. 

Ecoboosted V6 F-150?

Ecoboosted V6 Ford GT?

 

WOW! (shakes head in disbelief)

I could have had a V8!!!

 

For comedic relief this post is.

Shyte storm to cause it is not!

Edited December 10, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

yeah, that was the reference I was making.   Over the past 3 - 4 years, I've given smaller displacement boosted engines a chance to prove themselves... from all brands. At first, I was sold... convinced that this was going to be a 1 for 1 replacement. But over time, my opinion has changed.  With the exception of some of the really small 4-cylinders which really can't be replaced with a V6, I've found that in nearly all cases, having the bigger displacement engine is better.  A 2.0T 4-cylinder just doesn't make up for a 3.6ish V6 in the same type of vehicle. I've seen no fuel economy benefits to downsizing the engines, and it costs me available power. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

10 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Since you are willing to cite credible sources you win this argument IMHO.

 

defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

Then wait for the upgraded 5.0L.  It adds DI and a significant bump in both hp and torque. 460-470hp and around 430ftlbs combined with the 10 speed, should be very welcome.  The new 470ftlb EcoBoost is not just about peak torque, but instant and flat torque.  The new boost control system is even quicker to respond and the lag is barely there now.  And fuel economy is just better, under most driving conditions.  Like anything, when you play, you pay.

[Drew Dowdell]

24 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Hybrid and electric batteries deliver...Just like the Blue Jackets delivered last night and knocked down the Redwings 4 to 1...

The 6.2 is really nice.  One of the SCCA guys I know trailers all over the country with one and just adores it. Hard to go wrong with the vehicles you are talking about.

The truck doesn't have to haul much except occasional construction material from Home Depot, tow the Toronado on an open car trailer.... or haul my other "Business is good" gift to myself if it happens. 

 

5 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

 

defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

Wings is correct with this one.  Ford did their hybrid system on their own, however, in order to avoid a nasty patent litigation fight, they paid Toyota a minimal royalty just to keep things civil between the two companies. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

drew, completely love that bike.  You have to buy it.

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

 

defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

Then wait for the upgraded 5.0L.  It adds DI and a significant bump in both hp and torque. 460-470hp and around 430ftlbs combined with the 10 speed, should be very welcome.  The new 470ftlb EcoBoost is not just about peak torque, but instant and flat torque.  The new boost control system is even quicker to respond and the lag is barely there now.  And fuel economy is just better, under most driving conditions.  Like anything, when you play, you pay.

Yup. I'm willing to give the new EBs another shot.  The current ones haven't convinced me yet.

I was just on the Ford Build Your Own site, and was disappointed to see that you can't get the 5.0 and the 10-speed together yet.  Not that big a deal to me right now, I won't be making a move until late spring to early summer at the soonest.   I've recently spent some time behind the wheel of a Hemi Grand Cherokee.  Even as old as the Hemi is, there is a smooth steady confidence I get with that V8 compared to a boosted V6.   The numbers on paper may be in favor of the boosted V6es, but they just don't have the feel.   Even my weakling, wheezing, old Oldsmobile 307 has it. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

drew, completely love that bike.  You have to buy it.

I was completely sold on the Kawasaki Vulcan S until I drove that BMW R Nine T Scrambler.....  I was in love at first ride.   I test drove about 8 different bikes that day.  Surprisingly, not many auto journalists have their motorcycle license, so there wasn't a lot of people testing bikes.  I was so enamored with the BMW, the PR rep let me take it out again for most of the afternoon. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yup. I'm willing to give the new EBs another shot.  The current ones haven't convinced me yet.

I was just on the Ford Build Your Own site, and was disappointed to see that you can't get the 5.0 and the 10-speed together yet.  Not that big a deal to me right now, I won't be making a move until late spring to early summer at the soonest.   I've recently spent some time behind the wheel of a Hemi Grand Cherokee.  Even as old as the Hemi is, there is a smooth steady confidence I get with that V8 compared to a boosted V6.   The numbers on paper may be in favor of the boosted V6es, but they just don't have the feel.   Even my weakling, wheezing, old Oldsmobile 307 has it. 

From what I understand, it is a controls nightmare offering 10 speeds with 7 driving modes with their new skip-step tech (forget what they called it).  The timing was aligned with the new D35, but there are several new engines coming, not ready yet, including the 5.0L upgrade.  

Imagine trying to align it all at the same time. I have nightmares with my simple technology projects.  I can't even fathom all that together.