Would You Rather: Lux Hot Rod Edition

[A Horse With No Name]

The Benz is the better of the two, but I like the Cadillac style much, much better!

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 11/28/2016 at 9:43 PM, Frisky Dingo said:

 

I was asking between two specific cars for that very reason- so people would get outside of their comfort zones and think about something fresh.

People like what they like and vice versa.  If I had to choose I'd take the Benz.  But I'm no fan of either. This is a prime example of how Cadillac is letting me down.  Evidenced by the beginning of the article an American icon is missing in this comparison.  The Ciel via the CT6 TTv8 would be perfect. Imagine my beloved V even...  in drop top 

[Frisky Dingo]

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

This starts at around $87K IIRC :

This starts at $199K :

Sorry, I'm not seeing $100K+ difference here. This is wherein the problem lies, there's a diminishing rate of return above, say $75K.

- - - - - 

This is (IIRC) a million two in today's dollars :

Plenty to see, plenty to do. You don't have to be told it's special.

This is a million in 1952 dollars :

Same comment applies here.

 

The top picture isn't even the current S Class. And anyway, I said the AMG's interior was better. Though that's more a result of it being newer and having a fresher design than anything. The Bentley's interior still pales just about anything else in comparison. I would argue there's much more to luxury than a car's interior.

 

The Huayra does have an impeccably crafted interior, but I feel it's needlessly busy, and the exterior is just plain ugly. 

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The top picture isn't even the current S Class.

I thought that as well. It definitely doesn't look like the current S Class at all.

Personally, I love the looks of Mercedes' interiors. They may be bland or whatever to people but I love the simplicity.

[Frisky Dingo]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

People like what they like and vice versa.  If I had to choose I'd take the Benz.  But I'm no fan of either. This is a prime example of how Cadillac is letting me down.  Evidenced by the beginning of the article an American icon is missing in this comparison.  The Ciel via the CT6 TTv8 would be perfect. Imagine my beloved V even...  in drop top 

 

 

Both of the cars in this test make the CTS-V interior feel like a Focus. Sorry.

 

 

The Ciel is easily a much better and dramatic-looking car than either of these two. And if they built it right- meaning they didn't skimp on materials/powertrain- it would be my pick of the trio by some margin. Unfortunately Cadillac seems to lack the cajones to build such a car. I mean, we've only been waiting for a REAL flagship for how long?

[G. David Felt]

Popular Machanics did theit top 100 Hottest Rides of all time and it is interesting to see what companies are not in there or only their older models are. Worth the lovely pictures to see all 100

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g93/the-100-hottest-cars-of-all-time/ 

Some old MB's but not a single Bentley is in the list.

[Frisky Dingo]

57 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Popular Machanics did theit top 100 Hottest Rides of all time and it is interesting to see what companies are not in there or only their older models are. Worth the lovely pictures to see all 100

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g93/the-100-hottest-cars-of-all-time/ 

Some old MB's but not a single Bentley is in the list.

 

Those lists are fun, but that's about the extent of it. Numerous cars missing, numerous cars that shouldn't have been on the list. Popular Mechanics is very, very far from the last word on automotive historical significance/excellence.

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Those lists are fun, but that's about the extent of it. Numerous cars missing, numerous cars that shouldn't have been on the list. Popular Mechanics is very, very far from the last word on automotive historical significance/excellence.

True, but for hot rods the list is still a blast with many awesome rides that I feel beat the two luxury's listed at the start of this thread.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Popular Machanics did theit top 100 Hottest Rides of all time and it is interesting to see what companies are not in there or only their older models are. Worth the lovely pictures to see all 100

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g93/the-100-hottest-cars-of-all-time/ 

Some old MB's but not a single Bentley is in the list.

Neat to look through but that's also a 2011 article, for what it's worth.

[G. David Felt]

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Neat to look through but that's also a 2011 article, for what it's worth.

True, but still cool. Would be interesting to see what a C&G top 100 hottest rides of all time would look like.

[Frisky Dingo]

26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

True, but still cool. Would be interesting to see what a C&G top 100 hottest rides of all time would look like.

 

Would be very cool.

[Cmicasa the Great]

5 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

 

Both of the cars in this test make the CTS-V interior feel like a Focus. Sorry.

 

 

The Ciel is easily a much better and dramatic-looking car than either of these two. And if they built it right- meaning they didn't skimp on materials/powertrain- it would be my pick of the trio by some margin. Unfortunately Cadillac seems to lack the cajones to build such a car. I mean, we've only been waiting for a REAL flagship for how long?

15 years.  And its on the way.  Technically CTSv should have a less quality interior than two cars costing $50-100k more.  Still doesn't make either more attractive to me.  I'll take a Cadillac with a sunroof over the two Europeans and smile when I do.  

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Would be very cool.

This would need to be a vote otherwise it is just one or two opinions.  

[Frisky Dingo]

28 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

15 years.  And its on the way.  Technically CTSv should have a less quality interior than two cars costing $50-100k more.  Still doesn't make either more attractive to me.  I'll take a Cadillac with a sunroof over the two Europeans and smile when I do.  

This would need to be a vote otherwise it is just one or two opinions.  

 

Man, shockingly civil and reasonable response. Fwiw, I agree. The Bentley and AMG SHOULD have immensely better interiors given their price points. I just wish Cadillac would stop fooling around and go straight for jugular. The only thing worse than building a car that's as good but looses based on subjective stuff is not even trying at all. If Caddy made a Ciel and it lost based on something trivial like styling preference, seats, even ride, I, and most others probably, wouldn't bat an eye. It wouldn't lessen the car in my mind.

 

 

 

As for the list, everyone could do a 100 list and then we just tally votes.

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/30/2016 at 7:24 AM, Cmicasa the Great said:

People like what they like and vice versa.  If I had to choose I'd take the Benz.  But I'm no fan of either. This is a prime example of how Cadillac is letting me down.  Evidenced by the beginning of the article an American icon is missing in this comparison.  The Ciel via the CT6 TTv8 would be perfect. Imagine my beloved V even...  in drop top 

Oh hell yes...i would upvote this by a thousand if I could.....this trumps both of the European cars by a country mile!

17 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

15 years.  And its on the way.  Technically CTSv should have a less quality interior than two cars costing $50-100k more.  Still doesn't make either more attractive to me.  I'll take a Cadillac with a sunroof over the two Europeans and smile when I do.  

This would need to be a vote otherwise it is just one or two opinions.  

I don't know why one would feel compelled to buy a more expensive car if a cheaper one would do you right.

Hell, the Cruze is shockingly good, as is every product from Chevrolet.  If you were wealthy and did not need the status ro attention, a loaded Impala would do everything any sane person could want.

If Cadillac can get over a few of their past demons, look out, because they are the ballsiest car company building luxury cars on the planet, outside of small volume exotics like McLaren and Lotus.

I too would take a CTS-V over either the Bentley or the Benz, all week long and twice on Sunday.

17 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Man, shockingly civil and reasonable response. Fwiw, I agree. The Bentley and AMG SHOULD have immensely better interiors given their price points. I just wish Cadillac would stop fooling around and go straight for jugular. The only thing worse than building a car that's as good but looses based on subjective stuff is not even trying at all. If Caddy made a Ciel and it lost based on something trivial like styling preference, seats, even ride, I, and most others probably, wouldn't bat an eye. It wouldn't lessen the car in my mind.

 

 

 

As for the list, everyone could do a 100 list and then we just tally votes.

Or on the list idea, what 5 cars would you actually buy given a choice....it is easy when their is a thread a week on what car out of five...make people pick 5 cars they really really want that would theoretically be somewhat attainable for them....and then ask them to explain why.

[A Horse With No Name]

Not sure I want to see Cadillac go for the jugular so much as fix quality control problems with their current lineup.

They can sell tons of cars to small business people, lawyers, accountants, and the upper middle class. they do not need to compete with Bentley....or Benz for that matter.

Benz has a world wide market to robotize making low volume exotic or interesting stuff. Cadillac needs to just focus on implementing their current thinking more robustly.

20 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Those lists are fun, but that's about the extent of it. Numerous cars missing, numerous cars that shouldn't have been on the list. Popular Mechanics is very, very far from the last word on automotive historical significance/excellence.

Lists are subjective and kind of pointless anyways.  Getting your hands on an actual automobile and doing something with it is what matters.

Going off road in a beater Jeep on a Sunday trumps all of the list making on the planet, IMHO.

[ccap41]

26 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I don't know why one would feel compelled to buy a more expensive car if a cheaper one would do you right.

Prestige.

When you have the money you want other people with money to know... you have money and an excess of it. Child games, really. But that's one reason the S Class is likely as pricey as it is...because they can.

[A Horse With No Name]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Prestige.

When you have the money you want other people with money to know... you have money and an excess of it. Child games, really. But that's one reason the S Class is likely as pricey as it is...because they can.

Ohh I get that...i was thinking more in terms of our discussions here.  It seems we always think somehow an expensive car should trump a cheap one.

Many of us would just plain rather drive a CTS-V than a Bentley....

[ccap41]

Ahhh yes, I could agree with that.

[G. David Felt]

44 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Prestige.

When you have the money you want other people with money to know... you have money and an excess of it. Child games, really. But that's one reason the S Class is likely as pricey as it is...because they can.

Yup, never understood the jones jones competition. My oldest sister is this way and it has cost her a marriage, both equally at fault.

I make good money but see no need to waste it on over priced stuff, I get what I need and enjoy and to hell with showing up the neighbors. They do not pay my bills.

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, never understood the jones jones competition. My oldest sister is this way and it has cost her a marriage, both equally at fault.

I make good money but see no need to waste it on over priced stuff, I get what I need and enjoy and to hell with showing up the neighbors. They do not pay my bills.

I find it very stylish to live below my means, and I am by no means wealthy....from a style standpoint I would rather drive a 5 year old paid for car.  Even if I was as wealthy as Mitt Romney or Kim Kardashian....

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 11/30/2016 at 3:52 PM, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Man, shockingly civil and reasonable response. Fwiw, I agree. The Bentley and AMG SHOULD have immensely better interiors given their price points. I just wish Cadillac would stop fooling around and go straight for jugular. The only thing worse than building a car that's as good but looses based on subjective stuff is not even trying at all. If Caddy made a Ciel and it lost based on something trivial like styling preference, seats, even ride, I, and most others probably, wouldn't bat an eye. It wouldn't lessen the car in my mind.

 

I think that a great deal of their execution is top of the line.. but the consistency ACROSS the product is the where the muddle comes in to the mix. The CTS, in reality does have a more quality interior than the CT6... especially the VSeries. This should not be. They should equal or the CT6 should be above. One serious clue as to what I speak of is the steering wheel/horn pad in my car versus the CT6... They did not translate the showcar's leather , opting to go with the rubberized unt. The Escalade Platinum has the same steering wheel as me.. Leather. 

 

But there in lies the problem. To actually sell the CT6 with all of the serious upscale stuff they would have to blatantly call it the "S-Class Competitor.. and it would be.. as the only things that keep it from being an S-Class rival are the small details and the avail V8. That's it. The decision was made, or rather realization was that despite the fact that every one of Caddy's other cars were literally on par.. and almost exactly matched to their German rival.. the big car... the end all be all simply had to be primed before a real debut.. at the price point it could be. Thus the CT6 Platinum having quite a nice interior, but something like the steering wheel padding being parts bin material.. and thus we have the CT8 coming. Don't forget the CT6 was originally the DT7 (2009) and would have been fully capable of kicking ass versus the last S-Class.. interior quality and all sans the steering wheel (lol) If U notice the CTS, XT5, ELR and Escalade hold very little back in terms of interior quality. The XTS even got some nice upgrades for '17. The ATS' issues are a given.. considering its intro and the fact that it was originally supposed to hit production in 2009. This is one time where I seriously can say.. the "Next one is gonna ..." 

[Cmicasa the Great]

8 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Oh hell yes...i would upvote this by a thousand if I could.....this trumps both of the European cars by a country mile!

I don't know why one would feel compelled to buy a more expensive car if a cheaper one would do you right.

Hell, the Cruze is shockingly good, as is every product from Chevrolet.  If you were wealthy and did not need the status ro attention, a loaded Impala would do everything any sane person could want.

If Cadillac can get over a few of their past demons, look out, because they are the ballsiest car company building luxury cars on the planet, outside of small volume exotics like McLaren and Lotus.

I too would take a CTS-V over either the Bentley or the Benz, all week long and twice on Sunday.

All of this. The biggest hurdles Cadillac needs to jump is time and availability.

Time... because they were in the middle of a revamp when the BK happened.. causing funding to go to the cash cows of GMC and Buick.. the volume of Chevy.. and the fixing of foreign markets, especially Europe. Cadillac's plans were even more "ballzy" around 2008. The ATS was to debut on this new architecture called "Alpha" replacing the Epsilon based BLS (Saab 9-3) in Europe and debuting finally in U.S. The DT7 was on the way (called the XLS for a time). There was a revised XLR to debut ahead of the C7 (This is the reason why the XLR got a nice make over in 2009) and a BRX under the SRX. A few more things were in the works including a convertible CTS. Even the STS was supposed to still be on board.

Availability... because lets face it.. if U look at the variants that they have versus any of their competition from Germany or Lexus and even Acura.. well.. U get the idea. Again.. if I wanted a convertible luxury car I.. Cmicasa the Great.. a hater of foreign cars.. would have to buy a damn Benz, Lexus, BMW, or Audi

[A Horse With No Name]

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Availability... because lets face it.. if U look at the variants that they have versus any of their competition from Germany or Lexus and even Acura.. well.. U get the idea. Again.. if I wanted a convertible luxury car I.. Cmicasa the Great.. a hater of foreign cars.. would have to buy a damn Benz, Lexus, BMW, or Audi

Or a fantastic vintage car from Cadillac's past.  Benz has built some gorgeous cars in the past, but never in their most orgasmic wet dream did Lexus, Infinity, Acura, BMW or even Audi build anything like the 50's and 60's Cadillac convertibles, or for that matter the Cadillac's of the 20's and thirties.

Cadillac has hit high water marks no one outside of Benz has. Yes the Continental mark II is a fantastic car, and the 60's era Continental is fantastic, but Cadillac has cleaned Lincolns clock from a historical perspective, and it is not even remotely close.

My critique of the Cadillac electrical issues and the other faults they face is because I want them to survive and thrive to the point where they start building that type of car again. Because no one else on the planet will.

And anyone reading this who thinks some other company will step in and build the kind of stuff Cadillac is really capable of....is delusional and needs to stop lying to yourself.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Once the forefront leader in all things luxury, they are without a doubt the one brand sides Mercedes that actually have the heritage to pull it off. If losing the bargain luxury shopper is the way of bringing in even more affluent buyers. 

I can admit that Cadillac DEFINITELY still has work to do in expanding it's line-up. As far as positioning.. I say that this is a true depictor of the reality:

Top Tier- Super Luxury

Rolls
Bentley
Aston (are they even still making cars?)
Benz Pullman

Tier 2- Luxury 
Benz
Porsche
Maserati
BMW
Audi
Cadillac
Jag/LR
Lexus

Tier 3- Premium 

Denali

Lincoln
Buick/GMC
Infiniti
Acura

Volvo  

[A Horse With No Name]

14 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Once the forefront leader in all things luxury, they are without a doubt the one brand sides Mercedes that actually have the heritage to pull it off. If losing the bargain luxury shopper is the way of bringing in even more affluent buyers. 

I can admit that Cadillac DEFINITELY still has work to do in expanding it's line-up. As far as positioning.. I say that this is a true depictor of the reality:

Top Tier- Super Luxury

Rolls
Bentley
Aston (are they even still making cars?)
Benz Pullman

Tier 2- Luxury 
Benz
Porsche
Maserati
BMW
Audi
Cadillac
Jag/LR
Lexus

Tier 3- Premium 

Denali

Lincoln
Buick/GMC
Infiniti
Acura

Volvo  

Although I would put Cadillac ahead of BMW.  If we are talking 2002, then BMW would be ahead...but BMW has become so focused on riding their legacy and building cheap lease deals that they no longer as passionate about product as the once were.

Cadillac is now MUCH more passionate about product than they were 15 years ago.

Also, Rolls and Bently are kind of type cast (like an actor or actress gets type cast) into building a particular type of car...with Cadillac and Benz, there is a lot of room for creativity.

CTS-V wagon and Mercedes Unimog come to mind...

[Cmicasa the Great]

11 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Although I would put Cadillac ahead of BMW.  If we are talking 2002, then BMW would be ahead...but BMW has become so focused on riding their legacy and building cheap lease deals that they no longer as passionate about product as the once were.

Cadillac is now MUCH more passionate about product than they were 15 years ago.

Also, Rolls and Bently are kind of type cast (like an actor or actress gets type cast) into building a particular type of car...with Cadillac and Benz, there is a lot of room for creativity.

CTS-V wagon and Mercedes Unimog come to mind...

Actually I ranked the German 3 ahead of Caddy mostly because they all tend to cater to the upper achelon better at this time. Again.. Cadillac's biggest issue lies in variants and variation. There is a SL, C-Class, Eclass, and S-Class convertible. Nothing in any size at Cadillac. BMW also has a 4series and 6series not to mention the Z.. Audi A5, R8, and TT. They also need more CUVs, and the CT6 needs to be fleshed out in the upper even when the CT8 arrives.

IMO, where Cadillac and the 3 Germans compete head on.. such as the CTS vs the 5, E, A6.. or the ATS vs the 3/4, C, or A4.. and actually even the CT6 PLATINUM vs S550 they do quite well or better than those Germans