Dodge News: Rumorpile: New Dodge Challenger and Charger Not Due Till 2021, 300 Bumped Off

[William Maley]

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles is going to be milking the LX platform for all its worth till at least 2020. Automotive News has learned from two sources that FCA won't redesign the Chrysler 300, Dodge Challenger, and Charger until 2021 when they will transition onto the Giorgio RWD platform. This information confirms hazy details mentioned in a contract highlighter for Unifor members in Canada. The highlighter mentions a $242 million investment into the plant at Brampton, Ontario - home of LX production - to rebuild its paint shop.

Originally, the plan was to have the next-generation 300, Challenger, Charger out by 2019. Now with plans moved to 2021, FCA will be doing another refresh in 2018.

The sources also mention that one of three vehicles will be discontinued in 2021, most likely the 300. 

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)
Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears

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[Frisky Dingo]

Yikes. These cars are going to be beyond stale by then. 

 

Will they even have the capital to develop all-new cars that are competitive and honor the spirit of the current cars?

[ccap41]

LOL I don't even know what to think or say anymore about this. It's been around since 2005 and it already a dated platform.. The Avenger and Caliber are newer than this. Their Pacifica/Grand Caravan is on its second platform in this time.

[A Horse With No Name]

They will milk their cash cows until they drop....why invest in profitable lineup for the US when you can pump money into Fiat....?

[Stew]

Really not anything new here.  As long as they keep making money, why not?  The patform the Explorer, Taurus, and Flex rides on dates back to the late 90s.  As far as I know Chevy still builds the Impala Limited on the W body platform that dates back to the late 80s.  Toyota Corolla?  What, 2003?   If i am not mistaken the Camry is still riding on the platform that came out in 2007.  The key is to keep it as fresh as possible. 

in any case we better be getting some fantastic replacements for having to wait this long!

[FordCosworth]

Fits in with the daily changes in the " 5yrs Plan ".

 

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm waiting for an announcement that reveals the true financial state of FCA is much closer to the brink than the brave face they're putting on.

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I'm waiting for an announcement that reveals the true financial state of FCA is much closer to the brink than the brave face they're putting on.

The unwillingness to face market reality and invest in new product for the domestic US auto market will get them there if they are not there now.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

[A Horse With No Name]

14 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

 

Could not agree more....product and profit both!

[ccap41]

The D4 platform the Flex rides on is from 2005 and it's on its way out..because nobody buys Flexes.. Taurus is on the D3 according to Wiki..

The "New MC" platform the Corolla rides on came out in like '05 but the Corolla adapted it in 2014..If I read it correctly.

I guess it just seems ancient because where the Mustang and Camaro have come from since then. As for a sedan for the Charger/300 it doesn't seem as large of a deal because tuning for lap times and performance just isn't what they're striving for. But looking at the past platforms and how many years they've been around this is definitely going to be the longest. Platforms in general hang around longer than I thought. Good information to know.

[Stew]

45 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

 

I don't get how you can say that about jeep and Ram?  There is a new ram coming and the current one is selling great.  We get at least 1 new jeep every year and we are are getting at least 2 next year with the Wrangler and Compass. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

I don't get how you can say that about jeep and Ram?  There is a new ram coming and the current one is selling great.  We get at least 1 new jeep every year and we are are getting at least 2 next year with the Wrangler and Compass. 

I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

[Stew]

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The D4 platform the Flex rides on is from 2005 and it's on its way out..because nobody buys Flexes.. Taurus is on the D3 according to Wiki..

The "New MC" platform the Corolla rides on came out in like '05 but the Corolla adapted it in 2014..If I read it correctly.

I guess it just seems ancient because where the Mustang and Camaro have come from since then. As for a sedan for the Charger/300 it doesn't seem as large of a deal because tuning for lap times and performance just isn't what they're striving for. But looking at the past platforms and how many years they've been around this is definitely going to be the longest. Platforms in general hang around longer than I thought. Good information to know.

Interesting note, the Flex's last year is 2020, which should also be the last for the LX cars.  The challenger was never about chasing lap times.  It is a VERY different car from the Mustang and Camaro.  Larger, with a real trunk and true 5 passenger capacity, the Mustang and Camaro are only setup as 4 seaters and the back seat pass3engers are pretty well tortured,.  my bug has more backseat space lol. 

1 minute ago, Wings4Life said:

I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

2018 or 2019 will bring a brand new one.  the last major refresh was in 14 which including modifications to the frame, engines, adaptation of the 8 speed, intro of the ecodiesel, and a very much improved interior, so it really hasn't been that long, especially for a truck. 

[FordCosworth]

12 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

[Stew]

1 minute ago, FordCosworth said:

The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

At worst it is going to be heavily revised, but at least mostly new.  Some spyshots are even showing them with a wider track.  Lighter weight materials will certainly be used. 

[Stew]

remember too, the last gen F-150 was actually all new in 04, 08 was a heavy update so you are looking at 04-14 on the same platform.  the ram was all new in 09 so 09-19 is the same as the F-150. 

[ccap41]

Yeah a ten year span seems acceptable and companies need to start stretching them out to amortize costs better. The LX will be 16 years old for its last year of production 2005-2021. That's the one in question, the LX not the Ram. I'd also think trucks could last longer on an existing platform just because their intended use is a little more direct whereas cars they are using them for multiple names and variants.

[Stew]

10 years is not unheard of at all for cars.  Usually 2 successive generations will be based on the same platform, just highly modified for each one as happened with the LX cars in 11 and again in 15.  It seems like fullsize cars tend to hang around on their platforms longer than their midsize counterparts. 

[ccap41]

No 10 is not uncommon at all. 15 or 16 years is very long though.

[Stew]

Depends on the vehicle.  Remember before the new 2014 Impala came out, the last model (still sold as the limited) was/is based on the W body platform form, i believe, 1988 which puts it at roughly 30 years old.  The taurus is based on a platform dating to the late 90s, Pat\nther went on for over 30s with it's last total interior design happening in 95 and the last full exterior redesign in 1998.  In any case, 15 or 16 is a lot better than 30+

[smk4565]

Think of this, the Buick Lesabre was on sale when the first LX Dodge Magnum went on sale, and I think 2005 was the first year of the W-body Lacrosse and the Lucerne came in 2006.  Buick has replaced the Lacrosse 2 more times since then and Chrysler/Dodge still have the same basic car.

The LX was based on a Mercedes chassis (w210 I think) they have done 3 new chassis since then.  Chrysler is so hopeless, you can't compete with 20 year old stuff, they'll be selling Chargers for $19,999 in another year or two.

This is also Sergio hoping some white knight will ride in and save him with a merger and a line of established good cars that's he can rebadge.  But Honda or Hyundai aren't walking through the door with a line of fresh sedans and crossovers for them to add some chrome and leather and sell as Chrylsers.

[Stew]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Think of this, the Buick Lesabre was on sale when the first LX Dodge Magnum went on sale, and I think 2005 was the first year of the W-body Lacrosse and the Lucerne came in 2006.  Buick has replaced the Lacrosse 2 more times since then and Chrysler/Dodge still have the same basic car.

The LX was based on a Mercedes chassis (w210 I think) they have done 3 new chassis since then.  Chrysler is so hopeless, you can't compete with 20 year old stuff, they'll be selling Chargers for $19,999 in another year or two.

This is also Sergio hoping some white knight will ride in and save him with a merger and a line of established good cars that's he can rebadge.  But Honda or Hyundai aren't walking through the door with a line of fresh sedans and crossovers for them to add some chrome and leather and sell as Chrylsers.

Worst and most uninformed comment yet. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

...and both the Ford and GM products are very well done with excellent reviews. Not sure why it won't let me reply without putting a line through the text.

Edited November 7, 2016 by A Horse With No Name

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, Stew said:

Depends on the vehicle.  Remember before the new 2014 Impala came out, the last model (still sold as the limited) was/is based on the W body platform form, i believe, 1988 which puts it at roughly 30 years old.  The taurus is based on a platform dating to the late 90s, Pat\nther went on for over 30s with it's last total interior design happening in 95 and the last full exterior redesign in 1998.  In any case, 15 or 16 is a lot better than 30+

As far as the Panthers go, I still want a Mercury Marauder like I want Oxygen and access to the fair sex.  Kind of hard to argue against all of the unloved miles these did as Police cars and Taxi cars also.

Call me stupid but I have a soft spot in my heart for these.  I still cringe a bit inside whenever they inevitably get blown up in movies and TV shows also. Was not always the case, but as I get older and I look back...Ford did one heck of a job with these.

[G. David Felt]

This just confirms the waste of Billions on bringing back the stupid Italian brands that were already dead rather than investing in the proper labels in the US. 

No one can prove that the billions wasted on Alfa was worth steeling all the profits from the US labels.

This also makes me even more solid about the Killing Chrysler label. Dodge will continue on, kill off the 200, 300 and move the Pacifica to Dodge and Chrysler is dead.

I bet FCA in 2020 will announce the death of the 300, the movement of the Pacifica to Dodge and the delay to milk out everything under Jeep and Ram so they can continue to rap the profits to sink into the death traps from Fiat and Alfa. Garbage auto's with checkered history. Should have left them in the history books.

[G. David Felt]

If memory serves me correct, was the Dodge, Challenger and 300 not old MB platforms? 

I would say they have milked these to a whole new level of wringing out every drop.

[ehaase]

This is old news because the website allpar has been reporting for months that the LX will last until the 2021 model year. Also, LX has a few parts from the Mercedes E class, but I have read that it has more parts from the LH platform. 

[daves87rs]

Kinda old news, but I also assumes some of the rumors I've been hearing-they are not going to do much more (FCA) to most of their  products until a buyer/partner is found. Most of the money was going to their one major moneymaker, Jeep.

Things at FCA are going to change soon....

[A Horse With No Name]

7 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Kinda old news, but I also assumes some of the rumors I've been hearing-they are not going to do much more (FCA) to most of their  products until a buyer/partner is found. Most of the money was going to their one major moneymaker, Jeep.

Things at FCA are going to change soon....

The problem is that we have had twenty years of change and most of it not good.  The last in house (without a partner) cars of Merit were the first gen neon, Intrepid/Concorde/ et al.

My middle daughter was in diapers when those cars were new...now she is a senior in College. Chryco has effectively been starved for mainstream competitive product for a generation.

[hyperv6]

The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

[A Horse With No Name]

22 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

Quoted for truth!

[Stew]

15 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

As far as the Panthers go, I still want a Mercury Marauder like I want Oxygen and access to the fair sex.  Kind of hard to argue against all of the unloved miles these did as Police cars and Taxi cars also.

Call me stupid but I have a soft spot in my heart for these.  I still cringe a bit inside whenever they inevitably get blown up in movies and TV shows also. Was not always the case, but as I get older and I look back...Ford did one heck of a job with these.

Oh me too!  If it wasn't for them not meeting the latest safety standards they would probably still be around.  They were simply a cash cow for Ford. 

 

In my favorite Marauder color

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stew

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, Stew said:

Oh me too!  If it wasn't for them not meeting the latest safety standards they would probably still be around.  They were simply a cash cow for Ford. 

 

In my favorite Marauder color

That is just gorgeous!

[Stew]

Can you imagine if they had stuffed the Cobra R 5.4 or the Terminator's supercharged 4.6 in these?

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

Can you imagine if they had stuffed the Cobra R 5.4 or the Terminator's supercharged 4.6 in these?

 

 

Ohhh hell yes!  I love the 90's Impala SS but this thing Trumps that to no end...!

It is just kind of a shame that values/prices have gone up to the point they have, they are not a common car and are getting a bit pricey in the collector market.  Still, higher transaction prices would mean more of the cars end up in the hands of responsible owners, which I am all for.

[Stew]

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Ohhh hell yes!  I love the 90's Impala SS but this thing Trumps that to no end...!

I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, Stew said:

I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

I could live with that.  Would add a big full size Chrysler product from the very early 1970's or 1960's for a tri-fecta of sorts.

 

 

http://hooniverse.com/2013/09/13/hooniverse-obscure-muscle-car-garage-the-1965-chrysler-300-l/

Something a little bit obscure to really set all three off....

I have had a couple of chances to buy a 65 300L, sorry I passed on them.

[daves87rs]

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

 

Pretty much the truth my friend!

 

Bought to pick apart and use, then dump for money.

 

You know things are heading south when most of your workforce in MI is temp to hire....

59 minutes ago, Stew said:

I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

Yep! Now that is a fleet!

[Stew]

So much win in this next picture haha

\

[G. David Felt]

For me, I have always loved the Monte Carlo SS Area.

Other than being underpowered, the design and color is just awesome.  

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

For me, I have always loved the Monte Carlo SS Area.

Other than being underpowered, the design and color is just awesome.  

Love the even Rares Pontiac aero cars also.

Sadly, living in Ohio, there were no end to the SS Monte Carlo's I watched die a slow painful death here in the rust belt.....ughhh...

[Stew]

Love that gen Monte SS!   There are still a lot running around here, most are no longer underpowered hehe

[hyperv6]

I have been reading a book about the automakers back in the 80's-90's> They told about how the Panther was really an accident. They had intended to kill the car off but ended up keeping it as they poured their money into the Taurus program. 

GM killed off all their large cars and most of their FWD cars thinking gas would get more expensive and it dropped. Ford left with the old paid for Panthers just made a lot of money with the sedans. They did have an issue with the Cougar and T Bird as they were over weight and no where as profitable. 

The same is happening today with the large SUV models as GM owns the segment with about 50% of the market and Ford owns very little of it with their old models. Here again Gas dropped and left Ford with little like GM was in with their cars in the 80's. 

The best laid plans are often thwarted by things beyond the automakers control. 

[A Horse With No Name]

13 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

I have been reading a book about the automakers back in the 80's-90's> They told about how the Panther was really an accident. They had intended to kill the car off but ended up keeping it as they poured their money into the Taurus program. 

GM killed off all their large cars and most of their FWD cars thinking gas would get more expensive and it dropped. Ford left with the old paid for Panthers just made a lot of money with the sedans. They did have an issue with the Cougar and T Bird as they were over weight and no where as profitable. 

The same is happening today with the large SUV models as GM owns the segment with about 50% of the market and Ford owns very little of it with their old models. Here again Gas dropped and left Ford with little like GM was in with their cars in the 80's. 

The best laid plans are often thwarted by things beyond the automakers control. 

And when our leaders in their infinite wisdom plunge the world into another recession and gas goes way back up, both GM and Ford may be in a bit of trouble.  But not as much trouble as FCA.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ford currently offers a lot of fuel efficient vehicles, PHEV's, HEV's and EV.  Soon they will double their electrification offerings.

 

I hardly think Ford will be in trouble.

 

[A Horse With No Name]

38 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Ford currently offers a lot of fuel efficient vehicles, PHEV's, HEV's and EV.  Soon they will double their electrification offerings.

 

I hardly think Ford will be in trouble.

 

They will be in trouble, but not the way you are taking my post.  yes, they have fuel efficient vehicles, but the economy is already weak and will tank.  Everything from agriculture to aviation runs on petroleum and you will need buyers for your vehicles, regardless of how fuel efficient they are.

Ford and GM are also highly dependent on Trucks and SUV's for their profit margins, that market will also decline if there is a big jump in fuel prices.

Chrysler is more dependent on these vehicles and does not have the hybrid offerings, thus my comment.

[FordCosworth]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

And when our leaders in their infinite wisdom plunge the world into another recession and gas goes way back up, both GM and Ford may be in a bit of trouble.  But not as much trouble as FCA.

GM and Ford Will both be ok. 

FCA, right now buys Carbon Credits to offset their bottom of the barrel CAFE rating. That company is running on borrowed time. 

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

GM and Ford Will both be ok. 

FCA, right now buys Carbon Credits to offset their bottom of the barrel CAFE rating. That company is running on borrowed time. 

Which is why I said bit of trouble. Chryco has effectively been dead since the 1990's in terms of product under self rule and self direction.  Would almsot rather see them die a dignified death than a slow painful one, although I wish them no harm.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ebbs and Flows.  If the nation suffers, everyone suffers.  But the nation needs trucks and vans, just as they need smaller vehicles.

Offering more fuel efficient trucks and small vans, will give Ford a huge advantage.  

I hear they are targeting impressive amounts of FE with next gen trucks, Transit vans, including ranger and HEV.

If anything, Ford could even prosper.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Wings4Life