Bob Lutz says 100,000 Camaros.

[Chazman]

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?t=450541

[NOS2006]

If this isn't a "here it comes!," I'm not so sure what is..

Edited May 15, 2006 by NOS2006

[Satty]

Fine for the first year, I want to see what happens the third year.

[Imaj]

Bob Lutz says 100,000 Camaros.

That's really pushing it. Unless they'll offer a sedan and wagon.

[NOS2006]

That's really pushing it. Unless they'll offer a sedan and wagon.

lmao.

Read the posts on that site about how many F-Bodies sold in its LAST year. That's when it was already going way downhill.

[hyperv6]

100,000 is lower than I expected.

Six figures yearly can be obtain if they do the following

Price it with the Mustang

Give us a near 300 HP V6 coupe that will sell in greater volume than the V8

Keep the car so that also appeals to women as much as men or you lose 50% of the buying market.

Keep the insurance rate down on the V6 car with 5 star ratings.

Get the interest of ther youth market, they can't drift in a FWD. The young is what made the Camaro strong in the 60's and 70's just as they did with the Mustang in the 80's and 90's.

The V8 Z28 and SS will take care of itself just make them the fastest, best handleing and best riding on the market for the money.

Ford is selling 160,000 Mustangs this year and will do the same in the future. The Mustang is not really a great car as it is a fun to drive good value and that is what GM need to accomplish. If Ford can do it GM can too, there is no excuse not to meet this figure for 4 years with no major updates. Now major update will be need in 4 years and not 8+ years like the old car.

With the proper car and feeding they can make it grow and bring back this market that was lost. The sport compact market is not growing as it once was and a new trend could take if marketed right.

Edited May 15, 2006 by hyperv6

[NOS2006]

hyperv6 knows what's up.

[Robert Hall]

The key to the sales is going to be offering a fun car that appeals to a wide variety of buyers in a reasonable price range comparable to the Mustang..

Maybe to undercut the Mustang in price, maybe they will do a light base model with the Ecotec engine... then a 250 hp V6, a base 300 hp V8 (5.3L?) for an SS and a higher output (350-400hp) 6.0L V8 Z-28 (or have the SS the bigger engined model and the Z-28 the smaller one?), and a 500 hp 6.0L Z06 engined model at the high end..

[NOS2006]

As long as they have 3 engines, each around 250-300 HP, 300-350 HP, and 350-450 HP, they'll do fine. Well, that's if they keep the exterior as close to concept as possible and the interior comes out looking great...

[Munson05]

Good read. I'm already buying one and so is Sixty8 and NOS. That makes 99,997 sales left. Toyoguy? wpbharry? You in on this? :AH-HA_wink:

add me ...99,996

[Sixty8panther]

Good read. I'm already buying one and so is Sixty8 and NOS. That makes 99,997 sales left. Toyoguy? wpbharry? You in on this? :AH-HA_wink:

I've already got Marcia wanting one.

[loki]

my dad would also love to have one, along w/ 3more, including myself, if we have the money lol

[Newbiewar]

Fine for the first year, I want to see what happens the third year.

if i remember correctly between the first 3 years of the camaro 67-69... GM sold over 600k units... (i'm not sure if that was f-body or just camaro... but if the formula is right it'll sell)

[NOS2006]

I wouldn't be shocked if at least 5-10 people from this site ended up getting one. We've already got 4 to say yeah.

[hyperv6]

The key to the sales is going to be offering a fun car that appeals to a wide variety of buyers in a reasonable price range comparable to the Mustang..

Maybe to undercut the Mustang in price, maybe they will do a light base model with the Ecotec engine...  then a 250 hp V6, a base 300 hp V8 (5.3L?) for an SS and a higher output (350-400hp) 6.0L V8 Z-28 (or have the SS the bigger engined model and the Z-28 the smaller one?), and a 500 hp 6.0L Z06 engined model at the high end..

They will never do the 4 cylinder mistake again on the Camaro. There is just no appeal in a 3600 pound 4 cylinder even if it is a Ecotech.

I have no clue on a V6 they plan, but I could see a base V6 and a High output V6 being offered to make a affordable performace coupe at some point in production down the road.

In the end I see the Holden formula of one good performance V6 with several V8 options is what I expect they will start with.

The bottom line we will not see all the cards when the car comes out as usual. I expect to see upgrades and options added to keep interest up.

Keep in mind no matter what engines are used cost is a major factor in building this car. We may not see or get all we wish for as to keep cost down on the more base models. Lutz will force them the meet or beat the Mustang price and they will have to find ways to do it. You can get all the toys in a SS but your going to have to pay for it just as you do with a Shelby GT 500.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Sign me up for a V-6 model if it's cheap and has near 300-horsepower.

But my heart is where my sig's at...

Also, I think this proves that we should take whatever insiders left here post as the exact opposite.

[FAPTurbo]

Also, I think this proves that we should take whatever insiders left here post as the exact opposite.

I dunno... Lutz is kinda GM's mouthpiece and he likes to talk...

I'll put more faith into the insiders on this site than Lutz.

[regfootball]

the 3.6 should be the v6.....

[toesuf94]

PUT ME DOWN FOR 2, possibly 3 - 2 Z28/SS and 1 6 cylinder convertible.

[Robert Hall]

They will never do the 4 cylinder mistake again on the Camaro. There is just no appeal in a 3600 pound 4 cylinder even if it is a Ecotech.

That's why I said a light base model with the Ecotec..2800lbs instead of 3600lbs...

Anyway, I hope they can keep the weight under control..

[ehaase]

Anyway, I hope they can keep the weight under control..

Since people demand 5 star safety ratings and since Zeta will mostly be used for sedans, they probably can't. Anyone wanting a Chevrolet coupe with an Ecotec can buy a Cobalt.

[Sixty8panther]

if i remember correctly between the first 3 years of the camaro 67-69... GM sold over 600k units... (i'm not sure if that was f-body or just camaro... but if the formula is right it'll sell)

Just about 700K actually. Well.... very very close. 699,138.

1967 --- 220,906

1968 --- 235,147

1969 --- 243,085

Edited May 16, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[hyperv6]

That's why I said a light base model with the Ecotec..2800lbs instead of 3600lbs...

Anyway, I hope they can keep the weight under control..

You have a choice low cost, 5 star rating and 3600 pounds or High cost, 5 star rating and 2800 pound car.

Once you add the light weight metals to make it strong and light your going to have to pay for it.

GM is going to do much the same on as they did for the Solstice and for go some extra weight to keep the price in check.

Heck if you want 2800 and a Eco buy a Solstice anyway.

I can not say this enough GM will do any and all things to keep this car solid but also to retain cost to keep the price down. I am sure there is much in fighting as there was with Kappa on price line.

[Sixty8panther]

With the launch of its all-new - and unabashedly retro - Mustang,

Ford saw sales surge to 160,975 last year, and probably could

do more with additional production capacity. Skeptics will note

that the Mustang had handily outsold Camaro for years, but that

was a Camaro that had grown too aero-slick, almost

anesthetically clean for its own good.

Well said.

Great photos, except they left the 1/4 windows up.

[zhawk]

Don't expect a 4 cyl in a Camaro again, ever. It just won't work.

Besides, I averaged 25 MPG (combined) in my 99 Z/28 and my 95 Z/28 gets around 22. Any thought of fuel savings from a 4 banger would disappear from the work the engine would have to do to move the car. A good solid efficient V-6 will do very well as a base engine. But as for me bring on the V-8 and 400+HP!!!

[NOS2006]

Since people demand 5 star safety ratings and since Zeta will mostly be used for sedans, they probably can't.  Anyone wanting a Chevrolet coupe with an Ecotec can buy a Cobalt.

Besides, Mr. Settlemire said it best when saying.. if the Camaro handles better, gets to 60 and the 1/4 mile quicker, and feels better all around.. does it really need to weigh less?

[Chazman]

Besides, Mr. Settlemire said it best when saying.. if the Camaro handles better, gets to 60 and the 1/4 mile quicker, and feels better all around.. does it really need to weigh less?

YES!!!

[-Camaro-]

They need a 310(give or take a few) horsepower model that's 22k with all the options.

[Northstar]

They need a 310(give or take a few) horsepower model that's 22k with all the options.

Not happening. I bet it bases at just over $20k or $21k, and I'm guessing it will get some pretty nice options. I wouldn't be surprised to see NAV, kickass sound system, heated seats, etc., and those aren't on many $20k cars, much less something with 310HP.

[-Camaro-]

Not happening. I bet it bases at just over $20k or $21k, and I'm guessing it will get some pretty nice options. I wouldn't be surprised to see NAV, kickass sound system, heated seats, etc., and those aren't on many $20k cars, much less something with 310HP.

Well it is a dream, but they need to be cheaper than the mustang... Or match the price. They aren't going to get anywhere with GTO pricing(33k+)...

[Sixty8panther]

They need a 310(give or take a few) horsepower model that's 22k with all the options.

Maybe in 1993 money. :wink:

Even GM, w/ their $70,000 Corvette Z06 with 505HP

can not pull that off. C'mon anything near $24,000

for the base V8 will be justy fine!

[-Camaro-]

Maybe in 1993 money. :wink:

Even GM, w/ their $70,000 Corvette Z06 with 505HP

can not pull that off. C'mon anything near $24,000

for the base V8 will be justy fine!

$24 for the base V8? That's basically the samething I said in my first post, only two grand more. I seriously don't think GM can match the Mustang's price, and sadly if it can't, it's a lost cause, because not everyone finds and overpriced car appealing. Atleast I don't know many people who get excited over a car not worth the price... The top model if it has over 400 hp. should be no higher than $35k.

[NOS2006]

YES!!!

Yes as in "YES! He nailed it. It doesn't need to weigh less"

Or yes as in it does need to weigh less?

[CaddyXLR-V]

$24 for the base V8? That's basically the samething I said in my first post, only two grand more. I seriously don't think GM can match the Mustang's price, and sadly if it can't, it's a lost cause, because not everyone finds and overpriced car appealing. Atleast I don't know many people who get excited over a car not worth the price... The top model if it has over 400 hp. should be no higher than $35k.

What would make it not worth the price? You can always go by a 4cyl Accord instead, or maybe a 300 with the 2.7L, or pay $5000 more and get a 6cyl 350Z. $24,000 is a great price for the base V8 Camaro.

[Slideways]

The only way I could see an Ecotec in a Camaro is if they resurrected the straight six in passenger cars. I'd be all for a straight six Ecotec in displacements anywhere from 3.0l to 3.6l. Just think, a supercharged or turbocharged 3.0l making north of 300hp and an NA 3.6l making about 275hp. There would probably be very few cars that would have a hood and engine compartment long enough to hold a straight six though, but it would be nice and nostalgic.

Base: 3.6l I-6 275hp

RS: 3.0l I-6 direct injection turbo 350hp

Z/28 5.4l V8 (LS2 block with 4.8 crank) 375hp

SS: 6.2l V8 425hp

ZL1: 7.0l V8 500hp

Oh, and I think I read somewhere that the first gen Camaro was supposed to include a sedan and wagon. Am I the only one here that thinks a first gen Camaro wagon (2-door) would kick *ss?

By the way Sixty8panther, you were right about that being a nice pic, but I think the photographer should have rolled the other window up, not the 1/4 window down.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Slideways

[longtooth]

That's really pushing it. Unless they'll offer a sedan and wagon.

Not sure where i'd first read of this, but the idea was to have the next gen impala, the camaro, and a gto come off of the same line in oshawa. wish i'd have saved the link. sounds feasible. camaro and gto bow first. 12 to 18 mos. later'd come the impala. all potential fire-breathers. do it. of course, it'd take a "manhattan project" type push beginning very soon to have the first camaros and "goats" on the road two years from now. but if GM management doesn't realize the public's desire for this class of vehicle now, they never will. but i think they do. also think that 100,000 units for just the camaro is about 30,000 too ambitious. so what'd be wrong with satisfying the true believers, supplying 80,000 to 100,000 combined camaro and gto sales, then 2 or 3 grades of impala selling 250,000 units per year?

thought i had read oshawa could be upgraded to "flex" and bear the load. would also satisfy the requirement of 100% plant utilization decreed by r. wagoner and co.. oshawa already demonstrates enviable quality scores. morale and quality of build would in theory escalate as they'd have 3 prestige products to present to interested, discerning customers. :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

Mustangs have always been cheaper.

Cheaper to buy and cheaper in terms of build quality etc.

The 1967 Camaro when it came out made the Mustang

look like a Falcon sedan in comparison. The Camaro

always was and always will be a better built and higher

quality vehicle and thus it will be a few hundred bucks

more in the base to a few thousand more in the top of

the line models.

The only era where the Mustang caught up to and for a

moment surpased the Camaro was with the 5.0 (4.9)

before GM came out wiht the TPI 5.7 and in the end

the Mustang was more receptive to tunning and power

add ons.

The Camaro is not the lowest common denomionator,

it will not be the cheapest Pony car, but you can bet

your @$$ it will provide the best value.

----

Slideways:

Welcome to the Forum, as you will quickly find out I'm

obsessed with the idea of inline-sixes in cars like in the

1960s. This is one of the reasons why I love my Datsun

Maxima so much. I agree w/ your Ecotech inline-6 idea

for cars 100%.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Chazman]

Yes as in "YES! He nailed it. It doesn't need to weigh less"

Or yes as in it does need to weigh less?

Yes, in that it needs to weigh as little as possible....which, I admit, will be tough, considering factors like crash ratings, component weight for high horsepower and enough structural rigidity for expected chassis refinement, etc.

With all due respect to my buddy Scott, I can imagine a 3,500 lbs car reaching all the previously mentioned performance benchmarks (and adding CAFE and emissions as well), much more inexpensively than a 3,900 lbs car.

IOW, any added cost put toward weight savings might be a very good value on investment in the long term.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Yes, in that it needs to weigh as little as possible....which, I admit, will be tough, considering factors like crash ratings, component weight for high horsepower and enough structural rigidity for expected chassis refinement, etc.

With all due respect to my buddy Scott, I can imagine a 3,500 lbs car reaching all the previously mentioned performance benchmarks (and adding CAFE and emissions as well), much more inexpensively than a 3,900 lbs car.

IOW, any added cost put toward weight savings might be a very good value on investment in the long term.

I wish they could get it in under 3300lbs with a v8. Very doubtful though.

[-Camaro-]

What would make it not worth the price? You can always go by a 4cyl Accord instead, or maybe a 300 with the 2.7L, or pay $5000 more and get a 6cyl 350Z. $24,000 is a great price for the base V8 Camaro.

I meant if it was priced as high as the GTO. It most likely wouldn't sell much. One reason why the 4th gen didn't do so well is it was overpriced, among other things.

[Sixty8panther]

I wish they could get it in under 3300lbs with a v8. Very doubtful though.

GM is not stupid, they'll do the right thing. The LS-series

engines are all aluminum from the block ot the heads,

they will probably use aluminum as much as they can &

perhaps some space age stuff but a Camaro that will sell

in the low-to-high $20K will not have some monocoque

carbon fibre & balsawood Chassis like a Lotus Elise or

a McLaren F1.

[Robert Hall]

Yes as in "YES! He nailed it. It doesn't need to weigh less"

Or yes as in it does need to weigh less?

Weight is the enemy of performance...if it's lighter, it can perform better with less power..

[CaddyXLR-V]

Weight is the enemy of performance...if it's lighter, it can perform better with less power..

With better handling, and better gas mileage at the same time.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I would buy one! And my wife, and my dad, and my father-in-law, and my brother in law, and everyone else in my family and extended family. I could see 100,000 units in the first couple of years, I'm not too sure about the third or fourth year simply because by then the Mustang will be seeing a new body too, so I dunno if people would flock to it simply because it would be the "new" kid on the block or not.

[Chazman]

This is what the AE had to say today:

GM, Chevrolet. Journalists were given yet another preview of the Camaro concept this week, but GM would not confirm that the project is a "go." We can confirm, however, that the make-or-break business case for the new Camaro won't be the 400HP V-8, six-speed version, because GM can do that car in its sleep and make it great - and that package is as close to being a "no-brainer" as you can possibly get. The real issue is the V-6 version, a car that must be worthy of the Camaro nameplate, first of all, and be premium in every respect - while delivering an outstanding performance/value equation vis-a-vis the competition. This is the car that GM must get right if the Camaro is going to be a success in the market. We'll stick by what we said immediately after the Detroit auto show, however: The Camaro is a done deal - GM is just making sure that it's every bit as good as people want it to be. And we'll probably get official confirmation of its production timetable by the fall.

[c0ld_phuz10n]

I should be out of college for a year or 2 by the time that the Camaro comes out, so as soon as I have the cash...count me in for sure.

I got to ride in an 05 S218 Saleen 'stang a while back(pretty good sounding car, and if I had to get a Mustang, it would have to be one of those), which only made me want a new Camaro to stomp to stomp it into the ground.

Get it out Lutz, we are all waiting with checkbook in hand, and if this beats the Challenger to market all the better.

// c0ld_phuz10n