MT- Corvette Grand Sport vs 911 S

[Frisky Dingo]

Since nobody else has posted this-

 

MT- Grand Sport vs Carrera S Test

 

Great read. Sounds like they were pretty torn between these 2. They both tug at the heart strings and deliver incredible performance, but in different ways.

[ykX]

The Grand Sport looks just incredible

[Frisky Dingo]

Wow, no thoughts on this one?

[A Horse With No Name]

For me Grand Sport.  No question.

[Frisky Dingo]

I put all my thoughts on the matter in my comment over there @ MT.

But essentially, they are that if you can afford a near 100K Vette with gumball tires and a splitter that will scrape everywhere basically rendering it a toy, you can afford a 140K 911. Judged in their entirety, the 911 is easily the better car. Much wider breadth of usability, easier for the average person to drive fast, better build quality, greater refinement, superior straight line performance, and to top it all off, 911's almost always hold their value incredibly well.

Given the choice between the 2, give me the 911 all day. It is the true do-it-all-borderline-supercar sports car. For what the car offers and how easily accessible it is, it has no equal. That said, I love the Grand Sport. For a 'reasonably' priced track car, it'd easily be my pick of anything on the market. Owning both would be about the best combo one could assemble.

[ccap41]

92k to 140k is a 50% jump. I definitely wouldn't go as far to say if you can afford a 90k car you can afford a 140k car or if you can that doesn't mean you want to spend 50k on a nicer interior and maintenance out the ass in comparison. Yes, the 911 is the superior car but not necessarily by a 50% price increase.

If GM could only sort out their damn interiors on the Vette it would truly compete all around with the best in the world but until then it is still just a bargain priced car.

[A Horse With No Name]

27 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I put all my thoughts on the matter in my comment over there @ MT.

But essentially, they are that if you can afford a near 100K Vette with gumball tires and a splitter that will scrape everywhere basically rendering it a toy, you can afford a 140K 911. Judged in their entirety, the 911 is easily the better car. Much wider breadth of usability, easier for the average person to drive fast, better build quality, greater refinement, superior straight line performance, and to top it all off, 911's almost always hold their value incredibly well.

Given the choice between the 2, give me the 911 all day. It is the true do-it-all-borderline-supercar sports car. For what the car offers and how easily accessible it is, it has no equal. That said, I love the Grand Sport. For a 'reasonably' priced track car, it'd easily be my pick of anything on the market. Owning both would be about the best combo one could assemble.

I can relate to this.  For me, it is more the social group you buy into when you get a car, and the Porsche Club guys are almost without an exception fantastic people.

[Frisky Dingo]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

92k to 140k is a 50% jump. I definitely wouldn't go as far to say if you can afford a 90k car you can afford a 140k car or if you can that doesn't mean you want to spend 50k on a nicer interior and maintenance out the ass in comparison. Yes, the 911 is the superior car but not necessarily by a 50% price increase.

If GM could only sort out their damn interiors on the Vette it would truly compete all around with the best in the world but until then it is still just a bargain priced car.

I think you are severely misjudging the individuals who buy these cars. The first 2 Grand Sports my GM store got went to individuals with near 7 figure net worths. One actually had a 991.1 Carrera S and didn't trade it. We sold a fairly lightly equipped Z06 Vert that was in the same wheelhouse- 97K- to a guy who owned a 458 Italia and GT-R.

 

Blue collar-ish guys who are financing these cars for 84 months to get a $1,000 a month are not the normal buyers.

[ccap41]

And I think you're judging every Grand Sport purchase based on 2 buyers(at least you're making it sound that way). There are probably GT350 buyers with 7 figure net worths as well and that's even cheaper.

[A Horse With No Name]

26 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I think you are severely misjudging the individuals who buy these cars. The first 2 Grand Sports my GM store got went to individuals with near 7 figure net worths. One actually had a 991.1 Carrera S and didn't trade it. We sold a fairly lightly equipped Z06 Vert that was in the same wheelhouse- 97K- to a guy who owned a 458 Italia and GT-R.

 

Blue collar-ish guys who are financing these cars for 84 months to get a $1,000 a month are not the normal buyers.

One of the guys I used to autocross with went to Cincinnati and paid cash for a boss 302 Mustang when they first came out...because he was bored and wanted another car.  Tom already owned a CTS-V, a new Z06 Corvette, and a couple of other toys.

He also kept a lawyer on retainer because he liked to drive fast. Right after he got the Boss 302 he got nailed by the Ohio Highway State patrol for doing 155 on I-70.

Yeah, not normal blue collar guys....

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And I think you're judging every Grand Sport purchase based on 2 buyers(at least you're making it sound that way). There are probably GT350 buyers with 7 figure net worths as well and that's even cheaper.

Car guys come in all flavors.  One guy I know lives in a rather modest 1000 square foot house, plays with his cars and saves money every paycheck. His wife and three kids don't mind living in a small house, and he has money for his toys.

[Frisky Dingo]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And I think you're judging every Grand Sport purchase based on 2 buyers(at least you're making it sound that way). There are probably GT350 buyers with 7 figure net worths as well and that's even cheaper.

 

You're missing my point. 

I could tell you that even the average Stingray buyer has a ~70K SUV and 40-50K lux sedan in their driveway. Hey wait, that even sounds like someone we all know who hasn't posted in a while.

Do you really think that most people buying 75-90K cars are stretching their budget and pinching pennies to do so, or have the disposable income necessary to have pretty much any toy within reason they wanted?

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

You're missing my point. 

I could tell you that even the average Stingray buyer has a ~70K SUV and 40-50K lux sedan in their driveway. Hey wait, that even sounds like someone we all know who hasn't posted in a while.

Do you really think that most people buying 75-90K cars are stretching their budget and pinching pennies to do so, or have the disposable income necessary to have pretty much any toy within reason they wanted?

I see a good bit of both, actually.

But the point is made. When I visit the Porsche dealership, I tell them that I am not their clientele, and they are happy that I am being honest with them.

Sadly, I turned down a really clean air cooled 911 that was within budget back a few years ago when they were still cheap.  Maybe I should have listened to the guy...

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Do you really think that most people buying 75-90K cars are stretching their budget and pinching pennies to do so, or have the disposable income necessary to have pretty much any toy within reason they wanted?

Absolutely not, but I could very easily see somebody buying a 75k car around retirement and paying half of it in cash and still being nowhere near a 7 figure net worth. I absolutely don't see anybody pinching pennies in this price point but affording 75-90k and 140k just aren't the same.  Buying a 30k car and a 45k car isn't the same..

[ykX]

Personally, I think I will have to agree on this with Frisky, most people buying the Vette, especially GS probably can afford the 911 as well.  

But I think it is like Mustang and Camaro, most people who are buying one not likely to buy the other.  911 maybe a better car overall but I doubt too many people will cross shop.

If I had that kind of money I doubt I would get 911 because I never really liked them.  People usually spend that kind of money on something they are passionate about.

[Frisky Dingo]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Absolutely not, but I could very easily see somebody buying a 75k car around retirement and paying half of it in cash and still being nowhere near a 7 figure net worth. I absolutely don't see anybody pinching pennies in this price point but affording 75-90k and 140k just aren't the same.  Buying a 30k car and a 45k car isn't the same..

The problem with your logic is that you simply basing if off a % of price increase. 

A $120 pair of Bavid Bitton Buffalo jeans is almost twice the cost of a pair of BKE's. Does that mean I can't afford the Buffalos? Of course not, because we're still talking a small sum.

Near 100K is a very large sum. Especially for someone who is buying essentially a purpose-built vehicle. A 70-75K Stingray or base GS, even, doesn't have to be a toy. But dude trust me, the vast majority of people buying Z07-spec GS's and Z's can afford a 150K car if they so chose.

Buying a 30K car and a 45K car aren't the same, but it's not the same philosophy. Normal people buying 30-45K cars are buying practical vehicles- sedans, CUV's, not 2 door sports cars.

 

2 minutes ago, ykX said:

Personally, I think I will have to agree on this with Frisky, most people buying the Vette, especially GS probably can afford the 911 as well.  

But I think it is like Mustang and Camaro, most people who are buying one not likely to buy the other.  911 maybe a better car overall but I doubt too many people will cross shop.

If I had that kind of money I doubt I would get 911 because I never really liked them.  People usually spend that kind of money on something they are passionate about.

 

Spend some time on P-car and 'M' forums, and you'll be surprised. Many of those guys are not as narrow-minded and biased as you'd think.

[frogger]

You guys must be exluding primary residence from this net worth talk to be able to easily afford those cars.

 

 

 

 

 

[ccap41]

Alright, I won't argue it.. You have very good points.

[Frisky Dingo]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Alright, I won't argue it.. You have very good points.

 

I get what you're saying. I do. And in the case of your run-of-the-mill 2LT 8-sp Auto car w/out Z51 Pkg, I don't disagree. But those are very different buyers from those shelling out for the track stuff typically.

[ccap41]

See that makes way more sense and I guess I really wasn't separating the two types of Vettes.

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I put all my thoughts on the matter in my comment over there @ MT.

But essentially, they are that if you can afford a near 100K Vette with gumball tires and a splitter that will scrape everywhere basically rendering it a toy, you can afford a 140K 911. Judged in their entirety, the 911 is easily the better car. Much wider breadth of usability, easier for the average person to drive fast, better build quality, greater refinement, superior straight line performance, and to top it all off, 911's almost always hold their value incredibly well.

Given the choice between the 2, give me the 911 all day. It is the true do-it-all-borderline-supercar sports car. For what the car offers and how easily accessible it is, it has no equal. That said, I love the Grand Sport. For a 'reasonably' priced track car, it'd easily be my pick of anything on the market. Owning both would be about the best combo one could assemble.

While the 911 is undoubtedly the better overall car, it should be for $40K more. Imagine what an additional $40K would do for the Vette. Of course, given the mid engine rumors, you might not have to imagine for much longer.

[Frisky Dingo]

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

While the 911 is undoubtedly the better overall car, it should be for $40K more. Imagine what an additional $40K would do for the Vette. Of course, given the mid engine rumors, you might not have to imagine for much longer.

Who knows. But competition only improves the breed.

[A Horse With No Name]

10 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Who knows. But competition only improves the breed.

Exactly. Local dealer has a 1967 Corvette for sale for a very reasonable price. The new stuff is so good, people are looking past the cool old stuff it seems.

http://www.arenamotor.com/1967-Chevrolet-CORVETTE-BIG-BLOCK-ROADSTER-Columbus-Ohio-43201/5910150

Non matching number, but seems to be a screaming deal...

[A Horse With No Name]

Non matching motor but...yowzers!

Clean underneath, this guy does not sell junk...

Fantastic Chrome...

[Frisky Dingo]

Cars of that era are going to start plummeting in value. As the people who grew up with these cars die off, the market will dry up. 

[A Horse With No Name]

20 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Cars of that era are going to start plummeting in value. As the people who grew up with these cars die off, the market will dry up. 

To an extent, yes. Glad I sold my 1966 Mustang fastback when I did. Sadder to me is all of the seemingly forgotten cars of the seventies, eighties, nineties, and oughts....

[Frisky Dingo]

7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

To an extent, yes. Glad I sold my 1966 Mustang fastback when I did. Sadder to me is all of the seemingly forgotten cars of the seventies, eighties, nineties, and oughts....

 

They'll come around. As that generation accumulates wealth and have the means to buy the cars they longed for as kids, the market will explode. 80's are already starting to in some instances.

[A Horse With No Name]

14 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

They'll come around. As that generation accumulates wealth and have the means to buy the cars they longed for as kids, the market will explode. 80's are already starting to in some instances.

Much narrower band of cars being collected though.  Many younger people are really oriented towards the new stuff...

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm inclined to forego the peformance package on the Grand Sport for a more well rounded, easy to live with car. I've loved Corvettes since I was 4 years old, that's not going to change in favor of a Porsche with a recently downsized turbo V6.

The Porsche is an amazing feat of engineering at a price I'd never be interested in even if I could afford it.

[A Horse With No Name]

15 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I'm inclined to forego the peformance package on the Grand Sport for a more well rounded, easy to live with car. I've loved Corvettes since I was 4 years old, that's not going to change in favor of a Porsche with a recently downsized turbo V6.

The Porsche is an amazing feat of engineering at a price I'd never be interested in even if I could afford it.

And that is just it, they are both amazing cars.

[ykX]

19 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

 

Spend some time on P-car and 'M' forums, and you'll be surprised. Many of those guys are not as narrow-minded and biased as you'd think.

I don't know about forums but in the SCCA club I do autocross occasionally plenty of guys with Vettes of different vintage and Porsches as well, and while they all great guys I doubt any of these guys did cross shopped.  It is not really about being biased , they are either Corvette fans or Porsche.

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, ykX said:

I don't know about forums but in the SCCA club I do autocross occasionally plenty of guys with Vettes of different vintage and Porsches as well, and while they all great guys I doubt any of these guys did cross shopped.  It is not really about being biased , they are either Corvette fans or Porsche.

What car do you atuocross?  I agree there might not be much cross shopping.

[Cmicasa the Great]

I won't speak the obvious, but.. U kno what.. I will. The Porsche is a better accelerator because it has 63% of its weight sitting over the rear wheels as it revs to go. The tranny being able to shift itself didn't hurt either. Why GM didn't send the 8speed is beyond me.. Either way. It is what it is. The Vette then comes on board and works its perfect 50/50 balance in the handling dept with much better braking.. at $50K less no doubt. 

As to the demographics. I have seriously considered trading Sasha in for a GS.. or even better a Z06. I love that wide-body. Cost isn't a factor so much as the fact that my Z51 is loaded (with exception to red brakes) and the C8 is just 2 years away. Annnnnnnnnnnnnd of course the 640HP garage mate sitting next to her. Truth is at a certain level of income there are very little prohibiting factors to stop a certain buyer from splurging except simple logic. Yes, if U can afford a $90K Vette , U can certainly afford a $140K Porsche. , or U simply shouldn't be buying the $90K Vette. 

[ykX]

56 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

What car do you atuocross?  I agree there might not be much cross shopping.

My daily driver for now, G37S sedan. Hopefully, in 4-5 years will be able to get me a second car that will be better suited.

[A Horse With No Name]

4 minutes ago, ykX said:

My daily driver for now, G37S sedan. Hopefully, in 4-5 years will be able to get me a second car that will be better suited.

G37S is under rated as a car. An excellent way to get a 370 Z with a back seat and some practicality.

[Frisky Dingo]

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I won't speak the obvious, but.. U kno what.. I will. The Porsche is a better accelerator because it has 63% of its weight sitting over the rear wheels as it revs to go. The tranny being able to shift itself didn't hurt either. Why GM didn't send the 8speed is beyond me.. Either way. It is what it is. The Vette then comes on board and works its perfect 50/50 balance in the handling dept with much better braking.. at $50K less no doubt. 

As to the demographics. I have seriously considered trading Sasha in for a GS.. or even better a Z06. I love that wide-body. Cost isn't a factor so much as the fact that my Z51 is loaded (with exception to red brakes) and the C8 is just 2 years away. Annnnnnnnnnnnnd of course the 640HP garage mate sitting next to her. Truth is at a certain level of income there are very little prohibiting factors to stop a certain buyer from splurging except simple logic. Yes, if U can afford a $90K Vette , U can certainly afford a $140K Porsche. , or U simply shouldn't be buying the $90K Vette. 

 

And there you have it, folks. Thank you, sir.

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I won't speak the obvious, but.. U kno what.. I will. The Porsche is a better accelerator because it has 63% of its weight sitting over the rear wheels as it revs to go. The tranny being able to shift itself didn't hurt either. Why GM didn't send the 8speed is beyond me.. Either way. It is what it is. The Vette then comes on board and works its perfect 50/50 balance in the handling dept with much better braking.. at $50K less no doubt. 

As to the demographics. I have seriously considered trading Sasha in for a GS.. or even better a Z06. I love that wide-body. Cost isn't a factor so much as the fact that my Z51 is loaded (with exception to red brakes) and the C8 is just 2 years away. Annnnnnnnnnnnnd of course the 640HP garage mate sitting next to her. Truth is at a certain level of income there are very little prohibiting factors to stop a certain buyer from splurging except simple logic. Yes, if U can afford a $90K Vette , U can certainly afford a $140K Porsche. , or U simply shouldn't be buying the $90K Vette. 

I will be very interested in seeing what you do.  I think the C8 is going to be a very special car indeed!

[Cmicasa the Great]

45 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I will be very interested in seeing what you do.  I think the C8 is going to be a very special car indeed!

Most likely I will stick with my 500HP Z51 that still gets ooodles of looks and gives me orgasmic levels of driving excitement. LOGICALLY I can't justify buying a GS or a Z06 especially since the CTS-V is here. I will, God willing, get a C8 in its second year, as I am a Vette lover of every Generation and will love to continue that trend on my 6th of the 8 gens

Check this out.. this is how crazy it is for me.. and why buying a GS or Z06 would ACTUALLY make my life harder... This morning on an 80 degree day here in sunny Maryland I walked outside and had to go "EEanie Meeanie Miney Moe..." on which I'd rather drive... The Vette won because I want the top completely out, but I kept looking back at the V as I drove away. A Z06 with the same engine as the V... I would still be there down to flipping coins and playing Rock, Paper, Scissors with myself

 

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

8 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Most likely I will stick with my 500HP Z51 that still gets ooodles of looks and gives me orgasmic levels of driving excitement. LOGICALLY I can't justify buying a GS or a Z06 especially since the CTS-V is here. I will, God willing, get a C8 in its second year, as I am a Vette lover of every Generation and will love to continue that trend on my 6th of the 8 gens

Check this out.. this is how crazy it is for me.. and why buying a GS or Z06 would ACTUALLY make my life harder... This morning on an 80 degree day here in sunny Maryland I walked outside and had to go "EEanie Meeanie Miney Moe..." on which I'd rather drive... The Vette won because I want the top completely out, but I kept looking back at the V as I drove away. A Z06 with the same engine as the V... I would still be there down to flipping coins and playing Rock, Paper, Scissors with myself

 

 

 

I feel your pain, lol....Z51 is more than enough Corvette!

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

And there you have it, folks. Thank you, sir.

While I agree with you this sample size of 3 isn't enough to realistically draw a conclusion from.

[Frisky Dingo]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

While I agree with you this sample size of 3 isn't enough to realistically draw a conclusion from.

 

Idk, 3 for 3 is 100%.  

[ccap41]

18 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Idk, 3 for 3 is 100%.  

Hahaha touché.. (flippin' you off as I walk away)

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

While I agree with you this sample size of 3 isn't enough to realistically draw a conclusion from.

Believe me its a pretty decent sample of the majority of people who buy Vettes.. and 911s. The thing is that if U can afford a $90K 2 seater most likely U can go to $150K. Why? Because the Vette/911 I speak of probably is just a toy U play with on occasion.. and they have another everyday vehicle that cost U $50K-$60K (with today's prices) to toil around as a DD. Think about the fact that every cat I kno with either a Vette, 911, hell Ferrari.. has a $50K+++ Pick-up (LTZ or High Country, Plati or Limited.. etc) or SUV as their other car. I don't kno anyone who owns a new Vette or 911 who has a Hoopty as their daily driver at my age demo. 

[A Horse With No Name]

10 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Believe me its a pretty decent sample of the majority of people who buy Vettes.. and 911s. The thing is that if U can afford a $90K 2 seater most likely U can go to $150K. Why? Because the Vette/911 I speak of probably is just a toy U play with on occasion.. and they have another everyday vehicle that cost U $50K-$60K (with today's prices) to toil around as a DD. Think about the fact that every cat I kno with either a Vette, 911, hell Ferrari.. has a $50K+++ Pick-up (LTZ or High Country, Plati or Limited.. etc) or SUV as their other car. I don't kno anyone who owns a new Vette or 911 who has a Hoopty as their daily driver at my age demo. 

I know one guy with a new Z06 who has a Traverse as his other car.  Guy is single, house is paid for, works the line at GM, has Gods stockpile of cash. Almost everyone else I know buying this type of car has a very, very healthy income.  Which is fine....depreciation is a wonderful thing...i can afford a C5 Z06, soon I will be able to afford a C6 Z06.

When the rich guys are done with their turn, the rest of us can have a turn.  I have no problem with this.

...and honestly, I don't know of anyone buying a new Miata or Fiesta ST who has a hoopty as their other driver.  Guys who drive hoopty's are usually trying to buy a clapped out Nissan 240 from the 1990's...not a new Vette...lol...

[A Horse With No Name]

On 10/18/2016 at 3:18 PM, Frisky Dingo said:

 

They'll come around. As that generation accumulates wealth and have the means to buy the cars they longed for as kids, the market will explode. 80's are already starting to in some instances.

Oddly enough, I started looking at the prices for Nissan 240's from the 90's, lot of coin for a crapcan car.

[cp-the-nerd]

41 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I know one guy with a new Z06 who has a Traverse as his other car.  Guy is single, house is paid for, works the line at GM, has Gods stockpile of cash. Almost everyone else I know buying this type of car has a very, very healthy income.  Which is fine....depreciation is a wonderful thing...i can afford a C5 Z06, soon I will be able to afford a C6 Z06.

When the rich guys are done with their turn, the rest of us can have a turn.  I have no problem with this.

...and honestly, I don't know of anyone buying a new Miata or Fiesta ST who has a hoopty as their other driver.  Guys who drive hoopty's are usually trying to buy a clapped out Nissan 240 from the 1990's...not a new Vette...lol...

What self-respecting, wealthy, single guy buys a big-ass soccer mom crossover as a daily driver? I could understand a Tahoe, but a Traverse? Dude could be driving an Impala or god forbid a Cadillac of some sort.

[Frisky Dingo]

8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Oddly enough, I started looking at the prices for Nissan 240's from the 90's, lot of coin for a crapcan car.

Cars like that, you're honestly better off getting a JDM car imported. They're the real deal. Cars that are rarities over here are a dime a dozen there. And they're legal for import now.

[A Horse With No Name]

16 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Cars like that, you're honestly better off getting a JDM car imported. They're the real deal. Cars that are rarities over here are a dime a dozen there. And they're legal for import now.

We have looked at doing that for a number of cars.  My adult son and his friends are huge JDM guys.

Owning a RHD car is a lot of fun also.  My wife's aunt used to be a rural mail carried, and she had a Subaru wagon that was RHD. Going through a drive through with a dog or a small child in the left hand "drivers seat" always made for an interesting double take from the person at the window.

[A Horse With No Name]

My son with his 2000 SC 300 with a large turbo and many other mods, out in front of our house. If you look back behind the SC 300, you will see a Twin turbo 300ZX.  Jeff, the owner of the 300ZX also owns a Lexus SC 400 that we are going to build up for autocross and track use.

Joel, my son is going to re-badge the Lexus as a Toyota Soarer.  It has the famed 2JZ from the Supra (similar, but not exactly the same) and he has the parts for a manual conversion in the car.

I am on a European car binge, and drive an R53 Cooper S.  I wanted to find a decent E36 M3, but they have gone up in price.   A lot of them have been wrecked, rusted, and abused also. So I am back to thinking BRZ/WRX for the next ride.

Just need VW to get through the process fo buying back the TDI Jetta and we should be good.  Although I got 53 MPG driving into work today in the Jetta...I will never do that in a WRX!

16 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

What self-respecting, wealthy, single guy buys a big-ass soccer mom crossover as a daily driver? I could understand a Tahoe, but a Traverse? Dude could be driving an Impala or god forbid a Cadillac of some sort.

One that likes taking his friends to sporting events and lives in Michigan.