Is Ford Motor Company Falling a Step Behind Rival General Motors?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

Link to Fool Column

 

There are a lot of developments that suggest Ford Motor Company (NYSE:F) has had the drop on rival General Motors (NYSE:GM) for years. You can start with the fact that Ford survived the Great Recession on its own dime. You can note that Ford Credit is generating the kind of business GM Financial hopes to achieve years down the road. You can definitely point out that Ford reinstated its dividend roughly two years before its rival did.

Ford has definitely beaten GM to the punch many times in recent years, but here are two product decisions that show Ford is lagging behind.

Where art thou, subcompact crossover?

Ford management has mentioned many times that it believes........

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

There is no doubt Ford is behind in the compact truck and CUV segment sales here in NA, although certainly not a problem for them elsewhere in the world.  But I think that the small about of sales it is losing today will play into their hand well in the future.  At least for the "Return of the Ranger" marketing blitz that will surely ensue, once they announce / reveal it.  Absence does make the heart grow fonder, after all.  They were also wise to sit back and watch how GM did with the small twins.  And lets face it, it is pretty easy to improve on a product you have in front of you, versus nothing. For years Ford employees would ask management about a Ranger, and they were always snubbed with remarks like "no plans for it."  I even scratched my head at relative costs, room, power, features, capability, etc.  And yeah, some just want a more manageable size.  I think many are really curious to see what Ford does. It will surely be a autoshow circuit darling for the media and fans.  I recall looking over the all new GM twins, top to bottom, when they arrived at the Detroit show.  While doing so, I was kind of surprised at how little interest there was for them.  Certainly no lines to get in.  Perhaps there were other show stealers.  So Ford has an opportunity here in NA. i hope they don't blow it.

 

As for the sub compact CUV segment, I don't know what to think still. I have been seeing them all around Dearborn campus for years, assuming they would show up at any time.  But not the case.  My guess, they are awaiting to align to updated/new platforms.  Does that cost them?  I don't nearly as much as the small truck sales lost, and although there are sales left on the table, their total mix between Escape, Edge and perhaps Bronco soon, should carry them through.  Total CUV/SUV sales are certainly no slouch.  

 

So in total, I disagree with article.  Both brands have their highs and lows.  But where I think Ford has a small lead, is in the performance brand.  And that has to be accounted for.  And in terms of Electrification, GM certainly has all the news at the moment, but Ford is hot and heavy into it and I think they are ready to make some future plan announcements.  It's almost that season anyway.  

And I think Autonomy is too hard to predict.  Everyone is trying to steal headlines at the moment, and many have big plans, but claiming any kind of lead at the moment means little.

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Wings4Life

[G. David Felt]

Ford is surviving, but not winning. By Ford NOT taking the chance to clean the sheet and instead mortgaging everything, they are now in the position that under a world depression it could truly hurt them badly.

Yes they reinstated dividends, Yes they did not take any loans from the GOV.

They failed to dump the burden of their heavily underfunded Union retirement pension funds. They also failed to dump old assets that are dragging them down. 

Ford is surviving, but while they have profits now, they also have far bigger debt payments that are due and additional loan costs that have to be addressed in the coming future.

Ford can survive, but what that cost will be is unknown and can they truly get everything brought up to a full competitive nature is unknown.

Ford is also heavily behind in the EV arena which could also hurt them.

Personally Ford should have taken the option to dump the Union Pension and restructure even if it meant partial loans from the GOV.

There is much I like about Ford, but there is equally much to be concerned about and one of them is the slow roll out of new products that they have been slowly working on due to the debt load that Ford carries.

I truly hope at this point that FORD and GM come out on top in what I believe will be a consolidation of the auto industry over the next 5 years.

Can Ford bring up the CUV / Mid size truck market while keeping their Trucks / SUV's current? That is the question to be pondered.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

[balthazar]

This 'step behind / step ahead' slant is a lot of false worry. At well over 100 years history on both companies, there will always be market/ product shifts and ebbs & flows.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

What families lost plenty? GM repaid ahead of schedule the full loans from the Gov, The GOV got shares in the new GM. The Political idiots in DC are the ones who sold off sooner rather than later waiting to redeem equal or gain on the stock.

The workers got paid and their pension is solid and better now than it was under the old system. The % of ownership in GM has returned big gains into the pension fund.

Yes some of the 3rd party companies had to write off losses, but not a single a single company had to close and they are all stronger now than they were then. All companies under the bankruptcy ended up with a % of the amount owed rather than nothing.

This was a far better solution than what some especially on the ultra conservative side was wanting in just letting the US auto industry die.

The death of GM and Chrysler would have devastated not just the worker families but the 3rd party companies and you would have seen massive financial destruction at the gain of a very small few. The 1% crowd.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

This 'step behind / step ahead' slant is a lot of false worry. At well over 100 years history on both companies, there will always be market/ product shifts and ebbs & flows.

This 100%

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

What families lost plenty? GM repaid ahead of schedule the full loans from the Gov, The GOV got shares in the new GM. The Political idiots in DC are the ones who sold off sooner rather than later waiting to redeem equal or gain on the stock.

The workers got paid and their pension is solid and better now than it was under the old system. The % of ownership in GM has returned big gains into the pension fund.

Yes some of the 3rd party companies had to write off losses, but not a single a single company had to close and they are all stronger now than they were then. All companies under the bankruptcy ended up with a % of the amount owed rather than nothing.

This was a far better solution than what some especially on the ultra conservative side was wanting in just letting the US auto industry die.

The death of GM and Chrysler would have devastated not just the worker families but the 3rd party companies and you would have seen massive financial destruction at the gain of a very small few. The 1% crowd.

When the stock tanked, thousands of GM families who had their investments and 401K heavy into the stock, lost big time.  Sorry, tens of thousands of GM employees.

And yes, the world is better with GM and Chrysler, no doubt.

But had they an option, I would have much rather seen them take the road Ford took, which includes taking longer to pay back the debt.  And so would all those who lost plenty. So when you criticize them for that, keep all that in mind.

[El Kabong]

Ford is currently experiencing severe YOY sales declines relative to both GM and FCA. 

Ford is currently showing much poorer financial results than GM. 

And they appear to insist on doing shortcuts with product planning and engineering, as we once again see here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a31086/here-are-all-the-differences-between-the-us-and-european-mustang/

So... yes. The article definitely has merit. 

Anywell: onward!

Ford definitely needs to address the large SUV segment if it wants to get back into the financial game. Economics of scale with the Expedition would go a long way, if they retain as much commality with the F-series as possible. IRS is probably an expense they cannot afford anymore. 

Also, overhaul all the sedans. 

Not easy, but given time, doable. 

[ccap41]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 1:07 PM, Wings4Life said:

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

It's easy to have less debt when you get the tax payers to clean the sheet for ya.

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 5:44 PM, El Kabong said:

And they appear to insist on doing shortcuts with product planning and engineering, as we once again see here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a31086/here-are-all-the-differences-between-the-us-and-european-mustang/

What shortcut are you talking about?

[El Kabong]

The power descrepancy between LHD and RHD models. Some would argue that it was all on paper. I do not, and I'm pretty sure R&T would not either. 

In any event, it would appear that whatever your opinions of all that, the profit margins that it generates were not enough to keep the Flat Rock plant from going down, uh, flat:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2049252/

If GM only needed to make Camaro incentives larger than Mustang's for one month for this to happen, the Mustang's profit status has been iffy for quite some time. 

[ccap41]

It isn't a short cut when the are rated differently. If they rated them the same and weren't the same..that's a different story and it would leave them subject to some lawsuits.

[El Kabong]

The British rating system isn't so far removed that Top Gear would call it 412hp. There's a lot more going on there to get those numbers than that.  

In the larger picture, that doesn't really change anything in regards to the main point of this article.  One month of GM turning up tre heat on the Mustang is all it took for Ford to idle Flat Rock.  Ford appears to have went all-in on numbers for PR purposes while overlooking the qualities that make a good product. And the beancounter's bluff was called. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

Indeed. This 100%.

But remember, VD has been busy in every site he belongs too, trolling for any response he can get on that subject.

[FordCosworth]

18 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

[FordCosworth]

19 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

I think the silence is your answer...

[El Kabong]

On 2016-10-11 at 3:03 PM, Wings4Life said:

Indeed. This 100%.

But remember, VD has been busy in every site he belongs too, trolling for any response he can get on that subject.

Quoting facts isn't trolling. But nice to see that you can't even respond to facts with anything but mental diarrhea. 

Sad sad sad that you can't post intelligently

[El Kabong]

On 2016-10-11 at 2:24 PM, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

So... that justifies losing 25hp?

okie dokie

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, El Kabong said:

So... that justifies losing 25hp?

okie dokie

Yeah, the same way just getting a high flow mid pipe and a cat back yields you about 10-20hp. 

Have anything factual to back up that claim of what is "actually" going on? 

[El Kabong]

So anyways, I've just been on C/D's website, and it turns out the half-assed thinking thing has struck again-this time with a Lincoln's tires:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-lincoln-mkz-30t-awd-test-review

Memo to Ford: get the foundations right already.  GM is just laying down the law all over the place  

 

...meanwhile, GM just took an automatic ZL1 onto the Ring, left it in Drive, and beat a Shelby GT350R. 

Laying. Down. The. Law. 

[ccap41]

"Put Pilot Super Sports on Everything. It's the greatest tire ever."

*Puts Pilot Super Sports on car.*

"Well it doesn't work on everything.. Think of something different."

[El Kabong]

You cannot put Clark Kent's heart in Clark Griswold's body.  You need to tune the chassis as well as put on gumball tires.  

Its even worse than that-C/D discovered that the tires were ringers, which is a moldy old trick Lincoln has been called out on before. It is interesting that as time goes on their reviews sound increasingly like me. A coincidence-but hardly a surprising one. 

Because Ford keeps cheaping out. And GM wised up to that long ago. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

You're assuming they're ringers. 

Continue to read the article and it states that they do offer summer tires in that same size they just don't say what the tire is. 

[FordCosworth]

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You're assuming they're ringers. 

Continue to read the article and it states that they do offer summer tires in that same size they just don't say what the tire is. 

Amen.

Reading that had me searching for where C/D " discovered " these " ringer rubbers ".  

 

 

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Even if Lincoln stays like a Lazy boy chair, float ride, squishy tires, etc. There are still plenty of Baby Boomers buying cars that want that type of ride. 

My father is one of them, he complains about how all the new Cadillacs ride hard, sharp hard edges and wishes he could still get a new DTS and a New first gen SRX. Those to him were Cadillac's best cars ever, even though to me I have to disagree, as Cadillac is building far better auto's now than then. 

Yet age does have it's requirements. I told him I am sure someone some where has an old low mileage DTS for him to buy and a newer gen 1 SRX.  Yes sarcasm is me to my own dad.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ford didn't survive on their own dime. I thought we put that fallacy to bed. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ford borrowed the old fashioned way, and they are still paying back.

They also benefited slightly from DOE selected low interest loans.  That is hardly the same as begging for government funds to keep the lights on.

The only thing put to bed, was the savings of tens of thousands of GM families who lost Billions, as GM wiped the slate clean, while also screwing the American tax payer.

 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Ford borrowed the old fashioned way, and they are still paying back.

  That is hardly the same as begging for government funds to keep the lights on.

 

 

Hmmmm. Yeah.

2nd and 3rd mortgages were, are and continue to be for the very near and far future the new American norm. So no shame on FoMoCo on that account....yeah because, FoMoCo was better than the other two in managing their debt loads....yup...that is what you want us to believe...

And ummm, Mr. Mullaly was on that very same bandwagon train begging with GM and Chryco, helping them out to get funds from the government, and just in case FoMoCo needed EXTRA cash....

Oh.....FoMoCo mortgaged everything AND the kitchen sink including the coffee makers and door handles ONE YEAR BEFORE GM and Chrysler got government help because FoMoCo was in WORSE condition that the other two...

Try again my fellow Greek brother.

Oh...your post does not deserve to be at +1. At best it should be just neutral.

Your post is at the very least, very disingenuous...

 

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Hmmmm. Yeah.

2nd and 3rd mortgages were, are and continue to be for the very near and far future the new American norm. So no shame on FoMoCo on that account....yeah because, FoMoCo was better than the other two in managing their debt loads....yup...that is what you want us to believe...

And ummm, Mr. Mullaly was on that very same bandwagon train begging with GM and Chryco, helping them out to get funds from the government, and just in case FoMoCo needed EXTRA cash....

Oh.....FoMoCo mortgaged everything AND the kitchen sink including the coffee makers and door handles ONE YEAR BEFORE GM and Chrysler got government help because FoMoCo was in WORSE condition that the other two...

Try again my fellow Greek brother.

Oh...your post does not deserve to be at +1. At best it should be just neutral.

Your post is at the very least, very disingenuous...

 

 

My post...............was a simple yet sharp REPLY to another post that was uncalled for.

You might have conveniently missed that.

And you can itemize all of Ford's faults here to your heart's content (while of course ignoring GM's) but at the end of the day, if GM had the chance of taking Ford's path instead, I am positive that the country would have preferred it instead.  Especially those who lost their family fortunes.

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

My post...............was a simple yet sharp REPLY to another post that was uncalled for.

You might have conveniently missed that.

And you can itemize all of Ford's faults here to your heart's content (while of course ignoring GM's) but at the end of the day, if GM had the chance of taking Ford's path instead, I am positive that the country would have preferred it instead.  Especially those who lost their family fortunes.

Ummmmm....  NO!

When you want to reply to someone else's post Wings...THERE IS NO NEED TO BE DISINGENUOUS IN YOUR REPLIES!!!

I HAVENT ITEMIZED NO FAULTS BY ANY AMERICAN CAR MANUFACTURER...

YOU HAVE THOUGH....

ITS A NEW ANGLE YOU PLAY ON TO BURY GM: LOST FAMILY FORTUNES

There is NO moral high ground. All 3 Detroit headquartered car makers all got into severe debt loads and all 3 had to find a solution for NOT going belly up...FoMoCo mortgaged the actual Blue Oval logo and Mustang trade mark to avoid going belly up....1 year before GM and Chryco got bail out money....and Ford was up there trying to get bailout money too just in case the Blue Oval and Mustang trade mark money would dry up...and if you remember, the banks remortgaged money was as much as the bail out money and FoMoCo was still not sure if that would be enough...

There was NO THOUGHT put into anybody's family fortunes when FoMoCo applied for said mortgage and the possible bail out money...

THAT is reality of things. Anything else said about GM or Chryco or Ford is just noise pollution to try to get a leg up and piss on the other...

THAT would include YOUR analysis Wings!!!

My analysis is the closest to reality!

 

Besides...that is old news now....

Ya'll should move away from the  Detroit 3 bailout scene and concentrate on your Presidential candidate that REALLY used those very same tactics to get ahead...with REAL INTENTIONS OF SCREWING OVER THE LITTLE GUY....

GM, Ford and Chrysler. That was a heap of a mess that had collected over 4-5 decades with a myriad of reasons not just bad management and shoddy vehicle construction...many diverse reasons...

But BOTH of your Presidential candidates FULLY KNOWINGLY have screwed over the little guy's family fortunes....

Put your energy in bitchin' about that! Because the USA is gonna go down the loo with either candidate...

Edited October 26, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ummmmm....  NO!

When you want to reply to someone else's post Wings...THERE IS NO NEED TO BE DISINGENUOUS IN YOUR REPLIES!!!

I HAVENT ITEMIZED NO FAULTS BY ANY AMERICAN CAR MANUFACTURER...

YOU HAVE THOUGH....

ITS A NEW ANGLE YOU PLAY ON TO BURY GM: LOST FAMILY FORTUNES

There is NO moral high ground. All 3 Detroit headquartered car makers all got into severe debt loads and all 3 had to find a solution for NOT going belly up...FoMoCo mortgaged the actual Blue Oval logo and Mustang trade mark to avoid going belly up....1 year before GM and Chryco got bail out money....and Ford was up there trying to get bailout money too just in case the Blue Oval and Mustang trade mark money would dry up...and if you remember, the banks remortgaged money was as much as the bail out money and FoMoCo was still not sure if that would be enough...

There was NO THOUGHT put into anybody's family fortunes when FoMoCo applied for said mortgage and the possible bail out money...

THAT is reality of things. Anything else said about GM or Chryco or Ford is just noise pollution to try to get a leg up and piss on the other...

THAT would include YOUR analysis Wings!!!

My analysis is the closest to reality!

 

Besides...that is old news now....

Ya'll should move away from the  Detroit 3 bailout scene and concentrate on your Presidential candidate that REALLY used those very same tactics to get ahead...with REAL INTENTIONS OF SCREWING OVER THE LITTLE GUY....

GM, Ford and Chrysler. That was a heap of a mess that had collected over 4-5 decades with a myriad of reasons not just bad management and shoddy vehicle construction...many diverse reasons...

But BOTH of your Presidential candidates FULLY KNOWINGLY have screwed over the little guy's family fortunes....

Put your energy in bitchin' about that! Because the USA is gonna go down the loo with either candidate...

Your whole rant means nothing, because you conveniently ignored who started this.

[surreal1272]

This "Is Ford slipping" is just the ebb and flow of the business. It's just the constant cat mouse game that has been going on with these companies for a century now. They both have different ideas that will continue to make it a cat and mouse game. All that matters is how their ideas benefit the customer and not the stockholders and bean counters.

[Drew Dowdell]

13 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Ford borrowed the old fashioned way, and they are still paying back.

They also benefited slightly from DOE selected low interest loans.  That is hardly the same as begging for government funds to keep the lights on.

The only thing put to bed, was the savings of tens of thousands of GM families who lost Billions, as GM wiped the slate clean, while also screwing the American tax payer.

 

The government screwed the American tax payer by deciding to sell GM stock when they did. 

Ford benefited hugely by selling cars to the government that they couldn't sell to the public for MSRP.  When is the last time someone paid sticker price for a Focus?  Oh... sometime in 2008 and his name was Uncle Sam and he bought many thousands of them.   A bailout by any other name is still a bad deal on a Focus. 

Also... 90,000 Fords were purchased under Cash for Clunkers... second only to Toyota.  Sure helps to move cars when Uncle Sam is paying for your incentive program. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The government screwed the American tax payer by deciding to sell GM stock when they did. 

Ford benefited hugely by selling cars to the government that they couldn't sell to the public for MSRP.  When is the last time someone paid sticker price for a Focus?  Oh... sometime in 2008 and his name was Uncle Sam and he bought many thousands of them.   A bailout by any other name is still a bad deal on a Focus. 

Also... 90,000 Fords were purchased under Cash for Clunkers... second only to Toyota.  Sure helps to move cars when Uncle Sam is paying for your incentive program. 

 

 

That is some serious reaching Drew.

Especially the delta between GM and Ford regarding CARS program, where combined GM, Ford and Chrysler only accounted for 38.6% of the 700,000 mostly Asian vehicles.  The top three vehicles sold using C.A.R.S. were the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Toyota Camry.

 

Here is a good tally of numbers:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/26/cash-for-clunkers-final-numbers-690-000-vehicles-sold-2-8-bil/

[FordCosworth]

4 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

That is some serious reaching Drew.

Especially the delta between GM and Ford regarding CARS program, where combined GM, Ford and Chrysler only accounted for 38.6% of the 700,000 mostly Asian vehicles.  The top three vehicles sold using C.A.R.S. were the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Toyota Camry.

 

Here is a good tally of numbers:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/26/cash-for-clunkers-final-numbers-690-000-vehicles-sold-2-8-bil/

Toyota 19.4%
General Motors 17.6%
Ford 14.4%

And it was GM 2nd to Toyota, not Ford.  

[Drew Dowdell]

No... saying that Ford did it on it's own is ignoring evidence to the contrary. I'm not concerned with how many cars Honda sold in C4C... only that Ford got a huge boost from selling 90,000 cars, which is diametrically opposed to "weathered the financial crash on their own".  As is the thousands of Focii and Fusions that Uncle Sam bought at basically full price not the same as "Ford got through on their own". 

Ford weathered the storm because they were actually in enough financial trouble before the meltdown that they mortgaged everything up to and including the name on the door. Not the same as "doing it on their own".

Just admit that Ford did require some help and we have no argument here. 

4 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

Toyota 19.4%
General Motors 17.6%
Ford 14.4%

And it was GM 2nd to Toyota, not Ford.  

Irrelevant to my point. 

[FordCosworth]

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No... saying that Ford did it on it's own is ignoring evidence to the contrary. I'm not concerned with how many cars Honda sold in C4C... only that Ford got a huge boost from selling 90,000 cars, which is diametrically opposed to "weathered the financial crash on their own".  As is the thousands of Focii and Fusions that Uncle Sam bought at basically full price not the same as "Ford got through on their own". 

Ford weathered the storm because they were actually in enough financial trouble before the meltdown that they mortgaged everything up to and including the name on the door. Not the same as "doing it on their own".

Just admit that Ford did require some help and we have no argument here. 

Irrelevant to my point. 

Not at all Drew. You claimed Ford was second to Toyota in benefiting from that program. 

The fact is, it was GM, not Ford.

Correcting misinformation is not irrelevant

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

Not at all Drew. You claimed Ford was second to Toyota in benefiting from that program. 

The fact is, it was GM, not Ford.

Correcting misinformation is not irrelevant

Fine, I stand corrected on that irrelevant point. See how easy that is?  

Do you still try to maintain that Ford got and needed no help? 

[FordCosworth]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Fine, I stand corrected on that irrelevant point. See how easy that is?  

Do you still try to maintain that Ford got and needed no help? 

I have never tried to maintain that Ford needed no help.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

No doubt both companies were doing the best they can in dire situations.  I have no interest in arguing who leveraged the most or who borrowed the most or whatever. My ONLY intended debate was with dfelt regarding families that lost out, which he doubted.  I strongly disagree there.  I saw the fallout, including family and friends and neighbors.  And sorry, when someone brags about how GM used the filing to their advantage, and how Ford still owes.....I go ape $h!EE!!!  And it's not about Ford, it's about those who lost out.

 

My apologies 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Wings4Life

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

No doubt both companies were doing the best they can in dire situations.  I have no interest in arguing who leveraged the most or who borrowed the most or whatever. My ONLY intended debate was with dfelt regarding families that lost out, which he doubted.  I strongly disagree there.  I saw the fallout, including family and friends and neighbors.  And sorry, when someone brags about how GM used the filing to their advantage, and how Ford still owes.....I go ape $h!EE!!!  And it's not about Ford, it's about those who lost out.

 

My apologies 

In case you missed my clues...

GM and Chryco's shrugging off the debts and monies owed that may  have destroyed many family fortunes were NOT DONE ON PURPOSE TO TO FRAUD THOSE families. It may very well have been a necessary evil. To prevent any WORSE damages...

FoMoCo's situation well, they were in the same sinking boat and FoMoCo' decision to re-mortgage their assets and possibly taking bailout money like GM and Chryco had NO THOUGHTS about little guy family fortunes lost.

All Detroit 3 decision making in 2007-2009 was NOT about saving the little guy's family fortunes...

Those decisions that the Detroit 3 took were about saving the Big 3. So no family fortunes would be lost, or at least be minimized. FoMoCo's 2nd/3rd mortgage was a lucky one for FoMoCo. The banks cut that faucet to prevent any little guy family fortune disasters any further as there was a bank meltdown so GM and Chryco were shyte outta luck to go down that road...remember...FoMoCo did that a whole year before...

The bailout money was a solution to PREVENT WORSE little guy family fortunes lost then there was...

That is why I redirected the conversation to Trump and H.R. Clinton as BOTH have used the law to SCREW ON PURPOSE the little guy....

 

THAT IS WHY I CALLED YOU UP ON IT! Because there are 2 types of arguments I cant stand:

1. semantic driven BS

2. cherry picking

Because both are used to deflect to cover up biases and both are DISINGENUOUS!

NO APOLOGIES ON MY END!

I COME ARMED WITH THE TRUTH AND IF NOBODY LIKES THAT....TOUGH NOOGIES!

Edited October 27, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

37 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

In case you missed my clues...

GM and Chryco's shrugging off the debts and monies owed that may  have destroyed many family fortunes were NOT DONE ON PURPOSE TO TO FRAUD THOSE families. It may very well have been a necessary evil. To prevent any WORSE damages...

FoMoCo's situation well, they were in the same sinking boat and FoMoCo' decision to re-mortgage their assets and possibly taking bailout money like GM and Chryco had NO THOUGHTS about little guy family fortunes lost.

All Detroit 3 decision making in 2007-2009 was NOT about saving the little guy's family fortunes...

Those decisions that the Detroit 3 took were about saving the Big 3. So no family fortunes would be lost, or at least be minimized. FoMoCo's 2nd/3rd mortgage was a lucky one for FoMoCo. The banks cut that faucet to prevent any little guy family fortune disasters any further as there was a bank meltdown so GM and Chryco were shyte outta luck to go down that road...remember...FoMoCo did that a whole year before...

The bailout money was a solution to PREVENT WORSE little guy family fortunes lost then there was...

That is why I redirected the conversation to Trump and H.R. Clinton as BOTH have used the law to SCREW ON PURPOSE the little guy....

 

THAT IS WHY I CALLED YOU UP ON IT! Because there are 2 types of arguments I cant stand:

1. semantic driven BS

2. cherry picking

Because both are used to deflect to cover up biases and both are DISINGENUOUS!

NO APOLOGIES ON MY END!

I COME ARMED WITH THE TRUTH AND IF NOBODY LIKES THAT....TOUGH NOOGIES!

Golly gee, so you are suggesting that big corporations were more concerned about themselves?

 

Shocking.

Thanks for sharing.

[oldshurst442]

21 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Golly gee, so you are suggesting that big corporations were more concerned about themselves?

 

Shocking.

Thanks for sharing.

So, this is an admission that FoMoCo did the same things ethically as GM or Chryco in this 2008/2009 bankruptcy thing...

So what is your argument stance then with the whole family fortunes lost thing?

And that wasnt what I was saying either:

This bailout situation...

FoMoCo and GM and Chryco...

ALL 3 were going bankrupt...

All 3 were in danger of becoming extinct.

All 3 were desperate for cash flow.

All 3 were in a bad place and all 3 needed help.

All 3 took the SAME ROUTE!

All 3 ALWAYS took the SAME ROUTE.

All 3 ALWAYS HAD THE BANKS LEND THEM TONS OF CASH.

ITS JUST THAT in 2007/2008, Ford got billions when they re-mortgage their name...

GM and Chryco waited it out as they had some cash left over from other bank loans from years before. FoMoCo was cash strapped 1 whole year before the other two but when GM and Chryco became cash strapped 1 short year later, the banks themselves were going down...

So...in comes G.W. Bush with a proposal to which Obama finalized to save the American car industry from failing. And yeah, FoMoCo did not say no to the bailout money, they just DID NOT NEED TO USE IT!!! They could have though. They had access to it....

And if they have used it, they too would have caused the same amount of family fortunes lost as GM or Chryco.

DO NOT EVER try to sugar coat that!

 

THAT is what I was sayin'

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

My main point here, is that Ford took the higher road, and borrowed.  Yes I said higher.  It just is. And yes, when you borrow, you need to put something up.  That's how loans work.  So they saw the downturn in the economy, knew they had big plans to revitalize the brand, and borrowed money at low interest rates to secure that future.  And when they saw how cheap it was to borrow, they literally borrowed twice as much, because, why not.  

Sorry if these facts bother or annoy you, but that is how it went down. And because that is what they did, me and thousands of other families did not lose our collective rears. I am grateful for that.  

I have heard every spin and excuse possible on this matter, but that is the fact that I LIVED through, Not just read about.

GM's story is different, and yes, people suffered.  That's another fact.

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

My main point here, is that Ford took the higher road, and borrowed.  Yes I said higher.  It just is. And yes, when you borrow, you need to put something up.  That's how loans work.  So they saw the downturn in the economy, knew they had big plans to revitalize the brand, and borrowed money at low interest rates to secure that future.  And when they saw how cheap it was to borrow, they literally borrowed twice as much, because, why not.  

Sorry if these facts bother or annoy you, but that is how it went down. And because that is what they did, me and thousands of other families did not lose our collective rears. I am grateful for that.  

I have heard every spin and excuse possible on this matter, but that is the fact that I LIVED through, Not just read about.

GM's story is different, and yes, people suffered.  That's another fact.

GM's story is quite different. They were profitable right up till the quarter prior to Bear Stearns collapsing. They didn't go for the financing because at the time they were on a good trajectory. The economy collapsed and everyone tried to survive in their own ways. It wasn't GM or Chrysler's fault. 

[oldshurst442]

THERE IS NO HIGHER ROAD!

Like I said...YOUR reasons are just noise pollution meant to piss on GM...

Point finale!

 

PS...

I also lived through it....2009 affected the whole bloody planet. Not just Detroit and the automobile bankruptcies...

WE ALL DID!

Shyte, you are of Greek decent, like me, Greece is still living it!

 

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

THERE IS NO HIGHER ROAD!

Like I said...YOUR reasons are just noise pollution meant to piss on GM...

Point finale!

Tell that to those who lost.

And I am pissing on nothing. 

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Tell that to those who lost.

And I am pissing on nothing. 

Read the edited post above...

And yes you are pissin' on GM...

No higher road takin by Ford...

Only survival instincts...that became lucky for them...NOT TO USE bailout money, but bailout money was there for them to use as they did not decline it!

Edited October 27, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

GM's story is quite different. They were profitable right up till the quarter prior to Bear Stearns collapsing. They didn't go for the financing because at the time they were on a good trajectory. The economy collapsed and everyone tried to survive in their own ways. It wasn't GM or Chrysler's fault. 

Not their fault you say?

Yeah, I guess if I mismanage my checking account, don't save for the future, or seek other monies to pay for my expensive new car loan, it would not be my fault when a tow truck shows up in the middle of the night, and it's gone.  I could just blame the economy.

See how that holds up in court.

Again, the simple truth during hard times, is that one corporation took wiser steps,  

All the rest is noise and jelly.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Wings4Life