Chevrolet News:2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV To Start At $37,495

[Intrepidation]

2 hours ago, bigpoolog said:

lol i'll take removing the cord from my tesla and briskly hanging it every few days versus changing oil ever again

Listen, operating a power cord can be very difficult for people. That's why Dell has an entire division dedicated to reminding people to "unplug it and plug it back in".

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Sorry but I save money every time I change my own oil (and I do) and having an EV would be a huge plus towards me not having to worry about it ever again. No changing the oil or taking time out of my day to have someone else do it (because time is money and more important to me). 

Yeah, my time is precious too and more important.

And again, that is why I choose NOT to spend half a day doing maintenance for 5 cars that includes oil change and disposal delivery, fluid toppings, tire pressures, light bulb checks, windshield cleans and oh I forgot, free car wash.  There is literally a small army handling that for me in the span of 7 min and about 4 minutes for wash.  All for $32 out the door. 

 

You really should consider all that, because well you said it yourself, your time is precious.  You simply can't do all that in the same time frame.

[FAPTurbo]

3 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

words

that's great and all but that still seems less convenient than unplugging a cord every few days lol

also tonnes of people seem okay plugging in block heaters daily during winter sooooo....

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, bigpoolog said:

more words

yeah, I am pretty sure there are other drawbacks as well

[Blake Noble]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

yeah, I am pretty sure there are other drawbacks as well

Which are... ?

When it comes to basic maintenance, in comparison to a typical gasoline-powered car, a Tesla Model S has fewer moving parts and systems that require service. Mostly, you have braking, steering and suspension systems to keep up with. And, quick fact: Thanks to the Tesla's nifty regenerative braking system, you actually replace brake pads far less often on a Model S than, say, on a Toyota Camry. (In fact, one Model S owner used his mechanical brakes so rarely, the calipers seized up and the rotors were corroded. The car had 60,000 miles. Do that with a Camry. You can't.)

So let's see, with a gasoline-powered car I have to worry about:

• Oil and oil filter changes.
• Engine air filter changes.
• Changing the transmission fluid and filter.
• An engine rebuild or replacement at some point in the vehicle's future.
• A transmission rebuild or replacement at some point in the vehicle's future.
• Fuel delivery system service and repair.
• Filling the car up with gasoline on an average of every three days.

That's just the start. I don't worry about any of that crap with a good electric car.

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, Blake Noble said:

Which are... ?

When it comes to basic maintenance, in comparison to a typical gasoline-powered car, a Tesla Model S has fewer moving parts and systems that require service. Mostly, you have braking, steering and suspension systems to keep up with. And, quick fact: Thanks to the Tesla's nifty regenerative braking system, you actually replace brake pads far less often on a Model S than, say, on a Toyota Camry. (In fact, one Model S owner used his mechanical brakes so rarely, the calipers seized up and the rotors were corroded. The car had 60,000 miles. Do that with a Camry. You can't.)

So let's see, with a gasoline-powered car I have to worry about:

• Oil and oil filter changes.
• Engine air filter changes.
• Changing the transmission fluid and filter.
• An engine rebuild or replacement at some point in the vehicle's future.
• A transmission rebuild or replacement at some point in the vehicle's future.
• Fuel delivery system service and repair.
• Filling the car up with gasoline on an average of every three days.

That's just the start. I don't worry about any of that crap with a good electric car.

 

Tesla has advantages, I will give you that.  But then again, price.  Wowza. 

But for starters, when I am having that engine and transmission rebuilt after 200K miles and about 10 years, assuming you have to in the first place, the Tesla battery will be long past warranty and will absolutely need to be replaced, and also costs about twice as much, with range depleting in the interim.

And I have already talked pro-con enough, but Here is something you can't do easily in any electric car and something we used to love to do before kids -- a last minute travel trip after work on a Friday evening, traveling into the night, perhaps 400 miles or so.  Can it be done, of course. But not nearly as easy and certainly not as quickly.  That is one convenience scenario, and there are probably a million more.  

 

But for me, it is still price.  I can literally own a vette, Cruze and ATS for the same money. 

[surreal1272]

6 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Yeah, my time is precious too and more important.

And again, that is why I choose NOT to spend half a day doing maintenance for 5 cars that includes oil change and disposal delivery, fluid toppings, tire pressures, light bulb checks, windshield cleans and oh I forgot, free car wash.  There is literally a small army handling that for me in the span of 7 min and about 4 minutes for wash.  All for $32 out the door. 

 

You really should consider all that, because well you said it yourself, your time is precious.  You simply can't do all that in the same time frame.

Funny how you don't count the time it took for you to drive to the service and back X 5 cars. I have three in my driveway, can get necessary supplies in one trip for all three and take care of them as needed. Now, do you understand the flaw in your argument now or do you want to act like you wouldn't be singing a completely different tune if Ford were offering something like the Bolt? I've heard a lot of excuses from you as to why you think EVs are this and that and all things negative (while ignoring or sidestepping the many more positives of EV ownership). The impression you are giving here is that your car buying, driving, and maintenance choices make you smarter than everyone else's while only being different and in many ways not smarter. We get it. You think EVs are inferior to whatever you choose to do everyday where cars are concerned. You just happen to be the only one on this thread, thus far, that believes as you do. I'll just leave it at that. 

[ocnblu]

On 9/30/2016 at 9:04 PM, dfelt said:

Talk to woman, the number one complaint when the Female Engineering team started researching to build the Ford Flex was that Woman hated the smell of gas and having to touch the dirty gas cap.

The Engineering team was the first to remove the gas cap and integrate the vacume gas cap into the gas door. This allows you to push on the door, it pops open and you can then stick in the gas nozzle and pump.

Men have been for too long used to ignoring woman and not listening to what they want or like / dislike. If you talk and ask woman the top 5 things they dislike about cars, I bet you will hear gas smell, fueling, gas cap, maintenance.etc.

We just have not been used to asking let alone listening to what woman want.

I'm laughing because this sounds like Tarzan speaking.  "Talk to woman..." etc.  LOL

[Blake Noble]

15 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Tesla has advantages, I will give you that.  But then again, price.  Wowza. 

But for starters, when I am having that engine and transmission rebuilt after 200K miles and about 10 years, assuming you have to in the first place, the Tesla battery will be long past warranty and will absolutely need to be replaced, and also costs about twice as much, with range depleting in the interim.

That post wasn't really written thinking in terms of the present tense. Surely you can see the bigger picture here, right? The Tesla Model S was merely an example; something you can see and recognize today that is indicative of a future that is on the verge of arrival.

So throwing up price is moot, really. The cost of electric car technology is improving while finding its way downmarket. Surely you've noticed that.

Also, the cost of replacing of Model S battery today will not be the same cost 10 years from now, especially considering Tesla's building a huge battery plant of their own out in the desert. It should really go without saying that it will get cheaper.

15 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

And I have already talked pro-con enough, but Here is something you can't do easily in any electric car and something we used to love to do before kids -- a last minute travel trip after work on a Friday evening, traveling into the night, perhaps 400 miles or so.  Can it be done, of course. But not nearly as easy and certainly not as quickly.  That is one convenience scenario, and there are probably a million more.  

Where the in hell would you have to go after work on a Friday night that's 400 miles away? This is borderline absurd, sorry.

Let's say you get home at around 6 pm from work, after working an eight to ten hour day. I'd reckon you'd probably be pretty goddamn tired and want to at least sit down for an hour, but let's keep going.

If you could travel 400 miles in a straight line and manage an average speed of 60 mph, it would take you how long? Probably five or six hours, give or take, to get to where you need to go, provided driving conditions are perfect, which they rarely ever are. So let's assume you work an eight to ten hour day, get home at 6 pm, sit your tired ass down for an hour and leave out at 7 pm. You'd get to wherever you had to go at 1 am.

Again, I'll ask: where the hell are you going? The only thing I can think of that you can do during the early morning hours of any given Saturday mainly involves nudity, drinking and maybe gambling, and you don't necessarily have to drive 400 miles away from home to experience that.

15 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

But for me, it is still price.  I can literally own a vette, Cruze and ATS for the same money. 

Where are you buying a new Cadillac ATS, Chevy Cruze and Corvette for $66,000? I'm not sure if you can even do that with their used equivalents...

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

54 minutes ago, Blake Noble said:

That post wasn't really written thinking in terms of the present tense. Surely you can see the bigger picture here, right? The Tesla Model S was merely an example; something you can see and recognize today that is indicative of a future that is on the verge of arrival.

So throwing up price is moot, really. The cost of electric car technology is improving while finding its way downmarket. Surely you've noticed that.

Also, the cost of replacing of Model S battery today will not be the same cost 10 years from now, especially considering Tesla's building a huge battery plant of their own out in the desert. It should really go without saying that it will get cheaper.

Where the in hell would you have to go after work on a Friday night that's 400 miles away? This is borderline absurd, sorry.

Let's say you get home at around 6 pm from work, after working an eight to ten hour day. I'd reckon you'd probably be pretty goddamn tired and want to at least sit down for an hour, but let's keep going.

If you could travel 400 miles in a straight line and manage an average speed of 60 mph, it would take you how long? Probably five or six hours, give or take, to get to where you need to go, provided driving conditions are perfect, which they rarely ever are. So let's assume you work an eight to ten hour day, get home at 6 pm, sit your tired ass down for an hour and leave out at 7 pm. You'd get to wherever you had to go at 1 am.

Again, I'll ask: where the hell are you going? The only thing I can think of that you can do during the early morning hours of any given Saturday mainly involves nudity, drinking and maybe gambling, and you don't necessarily have to drive 400 miles away from home to experience that.

Where are you buying a new Cadillac ATS, Chevy Cruze and Corvette for $66,000? I'm not sure if you can even do that with their used equivalents...

A.  I was obviously talking about the weekend, leaving on Friday night, so my example and point is very valid. 

B.  And I was not comparing costs as much as I was responding to someones claim that ICE needs to rebuild engine and transmission as a con, and did not bother to mention the battery that wears out.  And don't count on battery costs plummeting.  I have not seen their prices change much in the last decade, if anything, they are getting more expensive.

C. And Tesla S MSRP range is $67.2K to $135.7.  Look at that, you took the cheapest price to make your point, where I hit it in the middle.  Although I might be stretching it with the ATS, perhaps a Buick instead.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

On 10/2/2016 at 0:15 AM, surreal1272 said:

Funny how you don't count the time it took for you to drive to the service and back X 5 cars. I have three in my driveway, can get necessary supplies in one trip for all three and take care of them as needed. Now, do you understand the flaw in your argument now or do you want to act like you wouldn't be singing a completely different tune if Ford were offering something like the Bolt? I've heard a lot of excuses from you as to why you think EVs are this and that and all things negative (while ignoring or sidestepping the many more positives of EV ownership). The impression you are giving here is that your car buying, driving, and maintenance choices make you smarter than everyone else's while only being different and in many ways not smarter. We get it. You think EVs are inferior to whatever you choose to do everyday where cars are concerned. You just happen to be the only one on this thread, thus far, that believes as you do. I'll just leave it at that. 

 

I stop on my way home. No additional miles, at all, zero, zilch. 

And I instruct my wife and kids to do it as well, so that means zero me time used up.  Very precious to me.  And when you factor in free car washes, the ten bucks I saved per car is soooooooo worth it not to save.

And stop making this about me, with generalizations and conclusions and assumptions.  I am here to talk topic. 

[surreal1272]

Nevermind. Enough lies have been exposed here. I made my point and I stand by it. 

[ccap41]

18 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

 And don't count on battery costs plummeting.  I have not seen their prices change much in the last decade, if anything, they are getting more expensive.

There also hasn't been much need for them to advance and be produced at such a high rate until very recently. Even if they stayed the same exact price that would be a reduced price with inflation. I don't think they will "plummet" but if they dropped at all comparing to inflation that's a good amount of cost to owner difference.

I just read on the Prius Prime that they cut the price $3,000 from the outgoing plug-in Prius. If you don't think a fair amount of that came from reduced battery costs then you're nuts. The Chevy Volt's msrp in 2013 was $33,500 and the new one for 2017 is CHEAPER at $33,220. The 2013 battery is a 16.5 kWh and the 2017 is 18.4 kWh battery. Lower msrp, larger battery. I know there are a million and one other factors that go into an entire car's msrp but I think it is fairly safe to say that they are being produced at a lower cost to the manufacturers.

Edited October 3, 2016 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

Being that cost of batteries has been brought up, we are in a time of dropping price per KWh of batteries and there are many stories that cover this. 

http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-vs-lead-acid-cost-analysis/

This story above actually shows that while the Li-Ion cost is higher right now, long term those batteries are cheaper due to weight, so shipping is cheaper, storage of power is superior, so long life which again ends in reduced cost plus many other factors. End result was that the Li-Ion is truly cheaper.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/07/electric-vehicle-batteries-are-getting-cheaper-much-faster-than-we-expected/

This study shows that while Li-Ion was about $450 US dollars in 2014 per KWh, by 2020 the cost is expected to drop to around $200 per KWh and could go significantly lower depending on the ramp up of battery production. 

End Result is that Li-Ion is a superior battery to use in any Auto. The stability and long life especially in storage makes it a better route than traditional Lead Acid batteries or the various mid level batteries.

I will say that I have found Li-Ion gel pack batteries to work extremely well in auto's.

Li-Ion Auto Batteries

Sears Li-Ion Auto Batteries

Smart Li-Ion Batteries

JEGS Li-Ion Batteries

ebay Li-Ion Battery Listing

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

6 hours ago, dfelt said:

Being that cost of batteries has been brought up, we are in a time of dropping price per KWh of batteries and there are many stories that cover this. 

http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-vs-lead-acid-cost-analysis/

This story above actually shows that while the Li-Ion cost is higher right now, long term those batteries are cheaper due to weight, so shipping is cheaper, storage of power is superior, so long life which again ends in reduced cost plus many other factors. End result was that the Li-Ion is truly cheaper.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/07/electric-vehicle-batteries-are-getting-cheaper-much-faster-than-we-expected/

This study shows that while Li-Ion was about $450 US dollars in 2014 per KWh, by 2020 the cost is expected to drop to around $200 per KWh and could go significantly lower depending on the ramp up of battery production. 

End Result is that Li-Ion is a superior battery to use in any Auto. The stability and long life especially in storage makes it a better route than traditional Lead Acid batteries or the various mid level batteries.

I will say that I have found Li-Ion gel pack batteries to work extremely well in auto's.

Li-Ion Auto Batteries

Sears Li-Ion Auto Batteries

Smart Li-Ion Batteries

JEGS Li-Ion Batteries

ebay Li-Ion Battery Listing

So instead of $16K for an EV battery replacement, we might see it go down to $8K or so.  Maybe. Well, I hope it does, and it will certainly help to remove a huge negative that is currently strapped to EV.

 

And regarding Li-Ion in your car, for $1,683 they better work extremely well.

You know what else works extremely well at starting your car?  Any $100 battery.  And yes, even in cold Northern climates.

 

[G. David Felt]

16 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

So instead of $16K for an EV battery replacement, we might see it go down to $8K or so.  Maybe. Well, I hope it does, and it will certainly help to remove a huge negative that is currently strapped to EV.

 

And regarding Li-Ion in your car, for $1,683 they better work extremely well.

You know what else works extremely well at starting your car?  Any $100 battery.  And yes, even in cold Northern climates.

 

I was wondering if you would only hang on the most expensive top end Li-Ion battery Wings.

If you had gone through all the links and my gut tells me you did, yet you just totally ignored the Li-Ion battery's that start at $199.99 and go up from there, yes most of the auto batteries are around $500 and have an 8yr warranty. Some only state a 1-2% energy loss over a 1yr sitting, others state no energy loss over a year just sitting. Yet all do cover deep cold cranking amps that surpass your $100 battery and life expectancy.

I enjoy my auto's with decent stereo's and for that, I know if I am not running the auto, a normal $100 battery might give you 10-15 min of time in today's auto's before running out of power and then it will not crank your auto. The Li-Ion can go much longer and still crank your auto.

The devil is in the details, but depending on your expectation of quality, long life and deep cycle use, there are valid use cases for the Li-Ion auto batteries.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

I was wondering if you would only hang on the most expensive top end Li-Ion battery Wings.

If you had gone through all the links and my gut tells me you did, yet you just totally ignored the Li-Ion battery's that start at $199.99 and go up from there, yes most of the auto batteries are around $500 and have an 8yr warranty. Some only state a 1-2% energy loss over a 1yr sitting, others state no energy loss over a year just sitting. Yet all do cover deep cold cranking amps that surpass your $100 battery and life expectancy.

I enjoy my auto's with decent stereo's and for that, I know if I am not running the auto, a normal $100 battery might give you 10-15 min of time in today's auto's before running out of power and then it will not crank your auto. The Li-Ion can go much longer and still crank your auto.

The devil is in the details, but depending on your expectation of quality, long life and deep cycle use, there are valid use cases for the Li-Ion auto batteries.

I shop at Jegs for my auto parts online and PepBoys locally.  I clicked on that link only because I am familiar them and they have some of the cheapest prices.

My point stands though, for nearly $1.7K, I can start my car just as well with a $100 battery that will last me about 5 years of normal use.  And if I wanted to really upgrade, it would cost me another $42.....

 

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/838876/00286?iCID=buying-car-battery_bosch-agm_05-20-2015_bosch-agm_image

 

That said, I completely understand the benefit of saving weight with Li-Ion. Something you don't seem to care about, so I ask, why pay the premium?  

 

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

That said, I completely understand the benefit of saving weight with Li-Ion. Something you don't seem to care about, so I ask, why pay the premium?  

Never said I never cared about weight, I care more about performance and sustained long term dependability. I agree with you that a $1,700 battery is over kill for most people but then that battery is clearly slated at Class A motorhomes. If you paying a million for this type of retirement travel around North America, then a $1,700 battery is cheap.

That said, I love my $200 Li-Ion battery from Sears. It is on it's 6th year in my Suburban that I use during the summer to pull trailers, my waverunners, etc. During the fall, winter and early spring, the Suburban is covered and stored with Dri-Zee to keep it mold free, moisture free. I disconnect the terminal lines on the battery and in the spring time, I reconnect, takes 3-4 extra turns to get the gas pumped back up to the engine and it roars to life. Drop Dead Dependable.

That is what I love about the Li-Ion plus it does run the stereo with serious bass well.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 10/3/2016 at 5:53 PM, Wings4Life said:

So instead of $16K for an EV battery replacement, we might see it go down to $8K or so.  Maybe. Well, I hope it does, and it will certainly help to remove a huge negative that is currently strapped to EV.

 

And regarding Li-Ion in your car, for $1,683 they better work extremely well.

You know what else works extremely well at starting your car?  Any $100 battery.  And yes, even in cold Northern climates.

 

The batteries are lasting longer than anyone ever expected them to even in hybrids.  The Escape Hybrid's batteries generally don't quit below 400k miles. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

400K?

I seriously doubt that.  Even if true, how good is that battery? I doubt it would maintain much range, rendering it useless.

Here is a fact. To replace a Tesla S battery, it costs $44K.  Gulp.

Sure, they warranty it for 8 years, but guess what, read the fine print, which states it will only guarantee that it propels the car, saying nothing about range.

hey, I hope batteries improve and come down, because people are paying sooo much up front, it would be a crime to hit them again with a huge bill.

[ccap41]

44k? For which battery? 

[Blake Noble]

Just now, Wings4Life said:

400K?

I seriously doubt that.

lol You know who doesn't? Taxi cab companies. You know. Like Yellow Cab.

Yeahhhh...

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-a-500-000-mile-nyc-taxi-valvetrain-looks-l-1717745908

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063767_ford-hybrids-prove-durability-by-racking-up-most-taxi-miles

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

400K?

I seriously doubt that.  Even if true, how good is that battery? I doubt it would maintain much range, rendering it useless.

Here is a fact. To replace a Tesla S battery, it costs $44K.  Gulp.

Sure, they warranty it for 8 years, but guess what, read the fine print, which states it will only guarantee that it propels the car, saying nothing about range.

hey, I hope batteries improve and come down, because people are paying sooo much up front, it would be a crime to hit them again with a huge bill.

Yes, 400k. The Escape Hybrid Taxis age out before the batteries die. 

$44k is not the cost of a Tesla battery. Tesla is on record saying that it is less than one quarter the cost of the car and they credit you the cost of the old one.   The Tesla batteries are also refurbishable. They can take out worn out cells and replace them. Therefore they can sell you a refurbished pack for less money. 

Even if after 300k miles the battery capacity is down to 75%, in a P85, that's still 200 miles of range.

Stop spreading F.U.D.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes, 400k. The Escape Hybrid Taxis age out before the batteries die. 

$44k is not the cost of a Tesla battery. Tesla is on record saying that it is less than one quarter the cost of the car and they credit you the cost of the old one.   The Tesla batteries are also refurbishable. They can take out worn out cells and replace them. Therefore they can sell you a refurbished pack for less money. 

Even if after 300k miles the battery capacity is down to 75%, in a P85, that's still 200 miles of range.

Stop spreading F.U.D.

The Taxi cabs benefit from plenty of regenerative braking.  Few EV's can say that.

And prices swing wildly on Google, including my quoted price. 

I am not spreading lies. Stop insulting your forum members.

[G. David Felt]

Last count the following auto's had regenerative braking that benefits the auto.

• Toyota Prius Family
• Honda Insight
• Ford Escape
• Tesla
• Chevy Volt / Bolt
• Nissan Leaf

To name just a few and regenerative braking is not new, but has been around since the early 1900's.

This PPT from Oregon State University is packed full of info about this tech and the history and pro's and con's. Very well done.

Oregon State University Regen Braking

Also this well done story on Regen Braking

Hidden benefits of Regen Braking by Clean Technica

Regen Braking is awesome, but better yet is that all EVs have regeneration from the motor, which creates power when not needing it. Unlike a petro car that you can coast down a hill but it will still use gas so a net negative, but regeneration in EVs as you coast down a hill creates energy which is a positive.

[ccap41]

Don't all hybrid/EVs have regenerative braking?

[Blake Noble]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

The Taxi cabs benefit from plenty of regenerative braking.  Few EV's can say that.

Lol wut

Do we need to circle back around to the Tesla I linked to earlier? I think we do.

 http://gas2.org/2016/05/21/2012-tesla-model-s-needs-8500-brake-repair/

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

I am not spreading lies. Stop insulting your forum members.

F.U.D. = Fear, uncertainty and doubt.

You are writing posts that clearly illustrate a desire to propagate hate, ignorance and misinformation about electric cars. You make repeatedly make clumsy, fumbling assertions only to be proven painfully wrong each and every time.

[Blake Noble]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Don't all hybrid/EVs have regenerative braking?

They do, but what our friend here is trying to say is that a hybrid taxi cab benefits from a higher rate of use of its regenerative braking system versus an electric vehicle being driven normally.

lol which isn't completely true. 

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Blake Noble said:

They do, but what our friend here is trying to say is that a hybrid taxi cab benefits from a higher rate of use of its regenerative braking system versus an electric vehicle being driven normally.

lol which isn't completely true. 

I mean I can see his point but does regenerative braking make the batteries last longer? Like the life of the batteries.. But you are right in the sense that a lot of people buying hybrids/EVs are living in closer quarters and that's one reason the bought them in the first place.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Hitting the brakes in ANY vehicle with regenerative braking reverses the electric motors which actually helps to store back energy to the system.  A use case vehicle like a NY hybrid taxi is regenerating like few others, in fact, no others.  My point was that dew presented an extreme and rare situation whereby some batteries last a long time, and again, what is that battery capacity or range, at that point.

 

Also, as I mentioned, Tesla S battery replacement costs are all over the map.  I really don’t put much faith into what Musk says, he is a salesman.  The costs that came up on page one of a Google search showed an estimate over $40K.  I did not pull that out of thin air.  Check it and see.  Is it wrong?  Few people seem to know as they have not had to replace any yet.  But why is this such a mystery?  It should be a fixed price.

 

And claiming someone is FUD’ing is the same as calling them a liar.  If someone doubts the facts presented, challenge them to present link or more discussion. But to me, FUD = Liar, and I am here to discuss, learn and debate, not be insulted.

Thanks

[G. David Felt]

Battery Replacement, Prius cost $800 only for a reconditioned battery pack that has warranty and is stated to last 75,000 miles. Great read:

Replacing Dead Hybrid Battery Pack for $800

Green Car Report Updated June 17th 2016 on Battery Replacement cost.

To quote this researched story that includes plenty of FACTS from Toyota, the Battery in all Toyota Hybrids / EV's are now expected to be for the life of the auto. This is backed up with proof of Ford Escape Hybrids that have gone 300-400 thousand miles and Consumer reports research on Priuses with over 250,000 miles on battery packs that have insignificant battery storage loss.

With that said, Toyota did supply this fact about a Prius Battery replacement installed price:

Toyota hybrid battery replacement costs

Below is a list of MSRP battery cost details for the various hybrid Toyota models offered since 2001.

• 2001-2003 Toyota Prius (1st generation) - $3,649
• 2004-2009 Toyota Prius (2nd generation) - $3,939
• 2010-2011 Toyota Prius (3rd generation) - $4.080
• 2012-2015 Toyota Prius Liftback - $3,939
• 2012-2016 Toyota Prius V - $3,939
• 2012-2016 Toyota Prius C - $3,807
• 2007-2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid - $4,892
• 2012-2015 Toyota Camry Hybrid - $4,892
• 2013-2015 Toyota Avalon Hybrid - $4,892
• 2006-2010 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - $6,198
• 2011-2015 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - $6,353

Each of these prices will be reduced by a $1,350 "core credit" for the old battery pack being replaced, which the dealer then recycles through a long-established Toyota program.

So price is not the scary 5 figures that some believe it to be.

Plus if you look at Tesla Forums, it is interesting to see that the original Tesla Roadster had a 245 Mile range in 2008, in 2015, for $29,000 Tesla would replace that battery pack with a new one that would give you 400 miles plus a $5,000 dollar credit so ending up costing you $24,000 and they had according to the web site plenty of people sign up for it. Now with the newest 100KWh battery pack, it seems the Tesla Roadster can get 600+ miles and the price is still the same yet the miles has jumped in how far you can drive it.

Have to be a Tesla owner to get access to the full story, but plenty of archived web pages showing this off and Autoblog also did a story on this.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/01/tesla-roadster-battery-pack-replacement/

Is Tesla Battery Packs expensive? YES, are they worth it? To many they are. Have they helped push the R&D for battery research and EV's? YES

Proof comes with the BOLT, Ioniq, Leaf 2.0, etc. Seems we will be seeing plenty of 200+ mile range auto's soon that are pure EV's.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

The Taxi cabs benefit from plenty of regenerative braking.  Few EV's can say that.

And prices swing wildly on Google, including my quoted price. 

I am not spreading lies. Stop insulting your forum members.

I'm assuming you don't know what F.U.D. is.  It means "Fear", "Uncertainty", and "Doubt".  You've certainly covered all of these in this thread. Here's just a small sampling.

Fear - You're spreading fear about range.  You talked about range anxiety a lot by extrapolating your own driving practices to the rest of the driving populous.  Yet the Bolt's and Tesla's range is more than enough for daily use of 98% of the non-commercial driving population. For road trips I have already shown you maps of trips between a number of major metropolitan centers where you get through your whole trip with one short charge up mid-route. 

Doubt - You're spreading doubt about battery life.  Without any proof, and in fact in spite of proof to the contrary, you are doubting the long term battery life of these vehicles.  There are many documented cases of hybrids going over 400k on their first battery.  Frequent regenerative braking is actually harder on batteries. Batteries cycling up and down is basically an EV "wear item".  That means that hybrid taxi batteries (and in fact any part on a taxi) have a substantially harder duty cycle than hybrid batteries in a typical family car.  You know that, I know that, everyone in the world who knows what a Taxi is knows that, yet you persist in trying to spread this doubt anyway.   

Uncertainty - You're spreading uncertainty about battery costs. The Tesla battery doesn't cost $44k. That was a wild guess by someone online, but since it suits your narrative, you went with it.   Tesla was selling batteries for the Roadster for $12,000 ten years ago... battery prices per KW have gone down, not up. The Model-S's batteries are warrantied for unlimited miles in 8 years. Tesla has stated that the batteries cost less than 25% of the cost of the vehicle. Even on a $100k P90, that's only $25,000.  Somewhere between $12,000 and $44,000 is the likely true number..... $25,000 sounds about right for a P90.  For a vehicle like the Bolt which has a smaller battery pack, that amount is likely a lot lower.   As the batteries in both the hybrids and EVs (yes, I'm aware they use two different technologies) have largely proven to have longer lives than the cars themselves, the whole replacement cost uncertainty is largely academic. 

[FAPTurbo]

to chafe at tesla's potential battery costs is to ignore costs of ownership, maintenance and repair for competing, yet famously unreliable luxury marques such as Range Rover, Mercedes and BMW.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Battery Replacement, Prius cost $800 only for a reconditioned battery pack that has warranty and is stated to last 75,000 miles. Great read:

Replacing Dead Hybrid Battery Pack for $800

Green Car Report Updated June 17th 2016 on Battery Replacement cost.

To quote this researched story that includes plenty of FACTS from Toyota, the Battery in all Toyota Hybrids / EV's are now expected to be for the life of the auto. This is backed up with proof of Ford Escape Hybrids that have gone 300-400 thousand miles and Consumer reports research on Priuses with over 250,000 miles on battery packs that have insignificant battery storage loss.

With that said, Toyota did supply this fact about a Prius Battery replacement installed price:

Toyota hybrid battery replacement costs

Below is a list of MSRP battery cost details for the various hybrid Toyota models offered since 2001.

• 2001-2003 Toyota Prius (1st generation) - $3,649
• 2004-2009 Toyota Prius (2nd generation) - $3,939
• 2010-2011 Toyota Prius (3rd generation) - $4.080
• 2012-2015 Toyota Prius Liftback - $3,939
• 2012-2016 Toyota Prius V - $3,939
• 2012-2016 Toyota Prius C - $3,807
• 2007-2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid - $4,892
• 2012-2015 Toyota Camry Hybrid - $4,892
• 2013-2015 Toyota Avalon Hybrid - $4,892
• 2006-2010 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - $6,198
• 2011-2015 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - $6,353

Each of these prices will be reduced by a $1,350 "core credit" for the old battery pack being replaced, which the dealer then recycles through a long-established Toyota program.

So price is not the scary 5 figures that some believe it to be.

Plus if you look at Tesla Forums, it is interesting to see that the original Tesla Roadster had a 245 Mile range in 2008, in 2015, for $29,000 Tesla would replace that battery pack with a new one that would give you 400 miles plus a $5,000 dollar credit so ending up costing you $24,000 and they had according to the web site plenty of people sign up for it. Now with the newest 100KWh battery pack, it seems the Tesla Roadster can get 600+ miles and the price is still the same yet the miles has jumped in how far you can drive it.

Have to be a Tesla owner to get access to the full story, but plenty of archived web pages showing this off and Autoblog also did a story on this.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/01/tesla-roadster-battery-pack-replacement/

Is Tesla Battery Packs expensive? YES, are they worth it? To many they are. Have they helped push the R&D for battery research and EV's? YES

Proof comes with the BOLT, Ioniq, Leaf 2.0, etc. Seems we will be seeing plenty of 200+ mile range auto's soon that are pure EV's.

Thanks, but listed hybrid prices, which have much smaller batteries, and thus, much cheaper.

[Drew Dowdell]

54 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Thanks, but listed hybrid prices, which have much smaller batteries, and thus, much cheaper.

Double it, triple it, quadruple it, quintuple it... It's still less than $44k by at least 5 figures. You're an entire Ford Focus off with your cost estimate. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, bigpoolog said:

to chafe at tesla's potential battery costs is to ignore costs of ownership, maintenance and repair for competing, yet famously unreliable luxury marques such as Range Rover, Mercedes and BMW.

Which actually can be downright obscene.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm assuming you don't know what F.U.D. is.  It means "Fear", "Uncertainty", and "Doubt".  You've certainly covered all of these in this thread. Here's just a small sampling.

Fear - You're spreading fear about range.  You talked about range anxiety a lot by extrapolating your own driving practices to the rest of the driving populous.  Yet the Bolt's and Tesla's range is more than enough for daily use of 98% of the non-commercial driving population. For road trips I have already shown you maps of trips between a number of major metropolitan centers where you get through your whole trip with one short charge up mid-route. 

Doubt - You're spreading doubt about battery life.  Without any proof, and in fact in spite of proof to the contrary, you are doubting the long term battery life of these vehicles.  There are many documented cases of hybrids going over 400k on their first battery.  Frequent regenerative braking is actually harder on batteries. Batteries cycling up and down is basically an EV "wear item".  That means that hybrid taxi batteries (and in fact any part on a taxi) have a substantially harder duty cycle than hybrid batteries in a typical family car.  You know that, I know that, everyone in the world who knows what a Taxi is knows that, yet you persist in trying to spread this doubt anyway.   

Uncertainty - You're spreading uncertainty about battery costs. The Tesla battery doesn't cost $44k. That was a wild guess by someone online, but since it suits your narrative, you went with it.   Tesla was selling batteries for the Roadster for $12,000 ten years ago... battery prices per KW have gone down, not up. The Model-S's batteries are warrantied for unlimited miles in 8 years. Tesla has stated that the batteries cost less than 25% of the cost of the vehicle. Even on a $100k P90, that's only $25,000.  Somewhere between $12,000 and $44,000 is the likely true number..... $25,000 sounds about right for a P90.  For a vehicle like the Bolt which has a smaller battery pack, that amount is likely a lot lower.   As the batteries in both the hybrids and EVs (yes, I'm aware they use two different technologies) have largely proven to have longer lives than the cars themselves, the whole replacement cost uncertainty is largely academic. 

I know what FUD means, it's a trendy way of calling someone a liar, simply because you disagree or misunderstand or whatever.  That's all fine and good.  

Couple of points,

1. Range anxiety is absolutely real, not made up by me.  That is clearly one of the main reasons nobody buys EV That and price.  

2. Regarding  battery life, you conveniently switched to hybrid batteries with much different battery life and charge cycling than EV, to make your point about longevity.  Much, much different than EV to be exact.  Lithium-ion packs prefer a partial cycle, like regen offers, rather than a deep discharge that naturally occurs when there is no ICE to kick in. Since lithium-ion chemistries do not have a memory effect, there is also no harm using a partial discharge. It avoids excessive wear.  Don't believe me, Google it.  And yes, battery life for Lithium-ion has shown to be better than expected and is still very new, but that's relative to expectations. Expectations have been poor. We shall see where they land, when we get there. Doubting them based on plenty of use cases, is not spreading FUD.

3. And regarding battery uncertainty, that is not my fault. There is no efffing prices that can be easily found, and lots of efffing uncertainty and lots of examples and guestimates, extreme and otherwise.  Don't blame me for that.  And why is that exactly?  Why not have a fixed price that is clear and obvious for customers to have and prepare for, I have to wonder. Don't blame consumers for assuming the worst case scenario, when you keep them in the dark. Anyway, exact cost is NOT, I repeat..... NOT the point, however, as I have repeated over and over.  The point has always been, lots and lots and lots of added cost for EV, that gets overlooked by the pundits, and that will likely never get recovered in your total operating costs. Fine you yourself say, it's about saving the planet. Sure.   Go off and believe you are saving the planet, but the truth is much closer to NOT doing much of anything, when you calculate well to wheel scenarios.  Plenty of facts to back that up too.

So I will stop short of suggesting you are FUD'ing (telling lies) and contributing to misinformation, but instead just continue what I have been doing, extending the discourse with topics and fact that are very debate-worthy.

 

 

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Double it, triple it, quadruple it, quintuple it... It's still less than $44k by at least 5 figures. You're an entire Ford Focus off with your cost estimate. 

Fine.

But that point had to be made. By me.

[G. David Felt]

Update, seems some of the pricing for individual items and packages is finally making it out from Dealers.

Per the GM-Volt web site, they got their hands on the following info from a Oklahoma Chevy Dealer:

Quote

The pricing info provided by the Oklahoma dealer, David Stanley Chevrolet, otherwise looks like legitimate data supplied by Chevrolet.

Further, some prospective Bolt customers have said their dealers told them this pricing info would be made available yesterday. Assuming so, it’s likely other dealers with access to the trim price details will begin posting as well.

Following are prices that until now have not been disclosed.

2017 Bolt EV LT

• Driver confidence package – $495
• Comfort and convenience package – $555
• Rear cargo storage shelf – $100

2017 Bolt EV Premier

• Driver confidence II – $495
• Infotainment package – $485

Common options

• Kinetic Blue, Cajun Red, Orange Burst paint colors – $395
Aluminum sill plates – $85
• DC charging – $750 (this was disclosed previously)
• Extra portable charge cord – $535

Limit promotional pricing
• Universal tablet holder (2) mounting behind front headrests for rear seat entertainment
– $115
• All-weather floor mats – $140
• All-weather cargo mat – $110

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Update, seems some of the pricing for individual items and packages is finally making it out from Dealers.

Per the GM-Volt web site, they got their hands on the following info from a Oklahoma Chevy Dealer:

Quote

The pricing info provided by the Oklahoma dealer, David Stanley Chevrolet, otherwise looks like legitimate data supplied by Chevrolet.

Further, some prospective Bolt customers have said their dealers told them this pricing info would be made available yesterday. Assuming so, it’s likely other dealers with access to the trim price details will begin posting as well.

Following are prices that until now have not been disclosed.

2017 Bolt EV LT

• Driver confidence package – $495
• Comfort and convenience package – $555
• Rear cargo storage shelf – $100

2017 Bolt EV Premier

• Driver confidence II – $495
• Infotainment package – $485

Common options

• Kinetic Blue, Cajun Red, Orange Burst paint colors – $395
Aluminum sill plates – $85
• DC charging – $750 (this was disclosed previously)
• Extra portable charge cord – $535

Limit promotional pricing
• Universal tablet holder (2) mounting behind front headrests for rear seat entertainment
– $115
• All-weather floor mats – $140
• All-weather cargo mat – $110

Be glad to start seeing these on the Road!