Chevrolet News:2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV To Start At $37,495

[surreal1272]

So just worry about today and don't worry about the counter evidence and the obvious future. Got it. Agree to disagree. 

[G. David Felt]

An interesting observation, we all hate the deregulation of oil as it made gas prices, heating oil and pretty much anything that is created or relies on oil volatile as well in price.

So what I am taking away here is that the states that went to offering multiple options for your electric supplier has not really made the rates cheaper but created a bit of a confusing best time to use electricity as you get screwed at some times during the day or night and not at others.

WOW, I much more prefer my state where electricity is regulated and can only change upon the approval of the state regulator and that is mandated to only be once per year. At least I can then rely on consistent yearly pricing with no crazy scheduled during the day or up and down crazy monthly pricing based on the competition.

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

An interesting observation, we all hate the deregulation of oil as it made gas prices, heating oil and pretty much anything that is created or relies on oil volatile as well in price.

So what I am taking away here is that the states that went to offering multiple options for your electric supplier has not really made the rates cheaper but created a bit of a confusing best time to use electricity as you get screwed at some times during the day or night and not at others.

WOW, I much more prefer my state where electricity is regulated and can only change upon the approval of the state regulator and that is mandated to only be once per year. At least I can then rely on consistent yearly pricing with no crazy scheduled during the day or up and down crazy monthly pricing based on the competition.

I wish Arizona had that but these Phoenix summers keep that from ever happening. My bill is brutal during the summer but I manage it pretty well. Most folks have a much higher bill than me for the same size house. 

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I wish Arizona had that but these Phoenix summers keep that from ever happening. My bill is brutal during the summer but I manage it pretty well. Most folks have a much higher bill than me for the same size house. 

Surreal, do you have a Solar roof to help off set the price of electricity? I would think that would help plus If the roof slants away, I would even build a frame to support more panels on the dark side of the house to maximize the solar gain and that could also help with charging an EV auto like the Bolt.

This also makes me think that the Tesla Wall is a smart way to go so that you maximize your solar gain during the day and storage and come home at night and be able to use the stored electricity either for the house or to recharge the EV.

[surreal1272]

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Surreal, do you have a Solar roof to help off set the price of electricity? I would think that would help plus If the roof slants away, I would even build a frame to support more panels on the dark side of the house to maximize the solar gain and that could also help with charging an EV auto like the Bolt.

This also makes me think that the Tesla Wall is a smart way to go so that you maximize your solar gain during the day and storage and come home at night and be able to use the stored electricity either for the house or to recharge the EV.

I am seriously looking into it because the lease rates aren't too bad and I have a south facing roof with plenty of room to power everything in my home and then some. Just clearing money room for such things. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

So just worry about today and don't worry about the counter evidence and the obvious future. Got it. Agree to disagree. 

you concluded that because I showed that electricity costs swing more frequently than gas costs huh/

 

agree to disagree indeed.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Wings4Life

[G. David Felt]

Seems cost have come down for Level 2 chargers, Amazon has them between $400 -$700 dollars and with installation that would tend to price out around $1,000 to $1,200 installed.

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Alevel 2 charging stations

Amazing options.

[ccap41]

16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Seems cost have come down for Level 2 chargers, Amazon has them between $400 -$700 dollars and with installation that would tend to price out around $1,000 to $1,200 installed.

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Alevel 2 charging stations

Amazing options.

Those seem very reasonable.

I can't wait to have a house of my own because I can almost guarantee I will drive something like a used Volt(2nd gen probably by the time I'm on my own..lol)

[Suaviloquent]

Which is exactly why you go net energy neutral and then stop worrying about ever paying for electricity or other energy utility bills every again. 

 

Really. You could have solar panels to sell the surplus of energy back to the grid, yet still use legacy natural gas appliances and things, and pay the fuel utility bill. It's that simple.

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

 

 

5 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

Which is exactly why you go net energy neutral and then stop worrying about ever paying for electricity or other energy utility bills every again. 

 

Really. You could have solar panels to sell the surplus of energy back to the grid, yet still use legacy natural gas appliances and things, and pay the fuel utility bill. It's that simple.

It's a great idea but I don't think all places allow you to sell back. I had a friend I lift with fighting our city to be able to do that. It ended up passing so he can now sell his surplus(if he has any) back to the city. But, for whatever reason, they fought it. I have to believe there are plenty of other places like that still.

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

you concluded that because I showed that electricity costs swing more frequently than gas costs huh/

 

agree to disagree indeed.

They don't swing more often for reasons already stated but see it however you want to see it. Doesn't bother me one bit. 

[Suaviloquent]

I did fine over some sore spots, but selling back isn't the main reason. Being energy independent yourself, instead of waiting for inept government or unscrupulous profit mongering companies is the reason.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

On 9/28/2016 at 2:43 PM, surreal1272 said:

They don't swing more often for reasons already stated but see it however you want to see it. Doesn't bother me one bit. 

Sorry, you are wrong.

Electric rates changes far more frequently, hourly even.  Gasoline prices changes nowhere near as frequently.  And have less impact on price as well.  Not even a debate.

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Sorry, you are wrong.

Electric rates changes far more frequently, hourly even.  Gasoline prices changes nowhere near as frequently.  And have less impact on price as well.  Not even a debate.

Wings, can you please post which states allow prices to change on an hourly rate? I am truly interested since electrical rates are far more regulated is my understanding than gas.

Nothing of what you say happens here in the Northwest, I know california has 4 different price zones over 24hrs,but they are the same over and over day to day, so what you are saying sounds more like a special case in the mid-west or back east.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Wings, can you please post which states allow prices to change on an hourly rate? I am truly interested since electrical rates are far more regulated is my understanding than gas.

Nothing of what you say happens here in the Northwest, I know california has 4 different price zones over 24hrs,but they are the same over and over day to day, so what you are saying sounds more like a special case in the mid-west or back east.

I believe all of them.

There are even apps to help you determine the best time of day to charge.

This came up pretty quick,

 

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-electric-car-off-peak-charging-cost-analysis

[surreal1272]

Yeah. What do I know. I've just been reading electric bills for years and know exactly how and what I'm being charged by three different power companies in two states. 

 

In other words, you are wrong. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Sorry surreal, you are wrong and you seem to hate to admit it.  In fact the prices swing pretty wildly (far more than gasoline as a percentage of total and frequency) And considering your background, that is kind of scary.

 

Here is clear proof, which I thought was as commonly known as a blue sky.

Go figure

https://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=3367

 

 

[surreal1272]

59 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Sorry surreal, you are wrong and you seem to hate to admit it.  In fact the prices swing pretty wildly (far more than gasoline as a percentage of total and frequency) And considering your background, that is kind of scary.

 

Here is clear proof, which I thought was as commonly known as a blue sky.

Go figure

https://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=3367

 

 

Actually I don't have to admit anything because there's nothing to admit. I'm right because that was what I pointed out to you the other day. Fact. For on peak hours, the rate goes up but does not fluctuate. The same goes for off peak which reiterates my earlier point. It is much easier to control your electrical usage than it is for gas. Let me put it another way. Plain and simple for you, I can charge up a Bolt cheaper than I can put 250 miles worth of gas in my car, even during peak hours.

 

 Here's the other scenario that you continually ignore because you are hyper focused on a singular point. Let me lay it out for you. When a pipeline bursts in Texas, prices immediately go up in NC. If the entire state of Texas loses electricity, it does not make the electrical rates go up in NC (or even Texas for that matter). Electrical rates are far more regulated in most states and are less volitale to environmental factors than gas and that is a simple fact passed on to me by a father with over forty years in the power industry (Duke Energy). Knowing all this, it is not debatable which is cheaper to run. It is you that needs to admit that you are making the wrong argument because of your failure to see ALL the points to this. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

Wings, can you please post which states allow prices to change on an hourly rate? I am truly interested since electrical rates are far more regulated is my understanding than gas.

Nothing of what you say happens here in the Northwest, I know california has 4 different price zones over 24hrs,but they are the same over and over day to day, so what you are saying sounds more like a special case in the mid-west or back east.

I don't know about hourly changes but I know there are definitely places that charge more for "peak hours" and less for slower times such as over night.

[G. David Felt]

6 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

I believe all of them.

There are even apps to help you determine the best time of day to charge.

This came up pretty quick,

 

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-electric-car-off-peak-charging-cost-analysis

This is based on California, 4 zones, with 4 pricing rates and he then spread that down in a hour by hour and averaged it out for his own use. California is the most regulated and set pricing brackets so what goes on here is very different than in most other states. Even then, the price is actually not really changing by the hour, just the average rate based on the bracket and if he pulls more energy at one bracket than another ends up changing the average hourly rate. In looking at his spreadsheets, he is still paying based on the amount of power used in each of the four set brackets.

This is what can be confusing for some as you can play a very large game of guess that grey based on how you want to avereage your cost over each hour in a 24hr day based on the cost per bracket.

End result is recharging at night during low usage is always cheaper than during the day.

5 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Sorry surreal, you are wrong and you seem to hate to admit it.  In fact the prices swing pretty wildly (far more than gasoline as a percentage of total and frequency) And considering your background, that is kind of scary.

 

Here is clear proof, which I thought was as commonly known as a blue sky.

Go figure

https://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=3367

 

 

Again this is based on 3 bracket zones during the summer and 2 brackets during the winter. You can average this out all you want and depending on your energy use, you could see the price per hour go up or down, but the end result is this company is still regulated to only charge their bracket rate, so you still pay the rate for the bracket that the electricity is used in.

You can play the grey scale game or just accept the fact the day time charging is higher than night time charging and the BOLT will win over many since they can drive it during the day for days on end and then recharge it over night.

Still regulated prices that are set for each bracket. Not hourly or by the minute changes as you have stated unless you look at averages which is just chasing grey ghosts.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 9/27/2016 at 0:31 PM, Wings4Life said:

No one pointed that out, because it is NOT a 'huge' factor.  A $0.10 or even $0.20 fuel price change adds up to little when fuel a tank that lasts your several weeks using an efficient ICE engine.  

Electric rates change seasonally, and yes, hourly, by as much as 2X-3X. 

Your charging prices changes hourly, even as you recharge every day, even during the charging process.  Gas prices can’t change as you begin to fill up.

 

 

 

 

Very few states have hourly metering, though I'm sure more will be coming.  Furthermore, the Bolt and Tesla both allow you to schedule your charging to be completed only during the cheap rates.

Second, if I'm environmentally conscious enough to buy an EV in the first place, I've also probably done some shopping on my electric generation supplier (disclaimer, I work for one). That means I can pick a 100% renewable option to recharge the car, thereby entirely zeroing out the vehicle's carbon footprint.  In my own case, I have a 100% wind contract for my electric...so any EV I bought would be wind powered.   Homeowners with solar panels can recharge from the sun, etc.

 

I'll repeat - buying an EV is about saving a different kind of green.... it's not about the money.

[Drew Dowdell]

14 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Sorry surreal, you are wrong and you seem to hate to admit it.  In fact the prices swing pretty wildly (far more than gasoline as a percentage of total and frequency) And considering your background, that is kind of scary.

 

Here is clear proof, which I thought was as commonly known as a blue sky.

Go figure

https://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=3367

 

 

One utility for one locality doesn't make it proof for the country as a whole.  Right now, I have a fix rate of 7.5 c/kWh for 24 months... yet if I posted my electric contract, that wouldn't be proof of anything. 

Furthermore, knowing what prices are at what times allows you to program the car to only charge during the cheap times. It's like knowing that the price of gasoline will be 25c lower in a few hours, so you wait to fill up. 

Stop spreading F.U.D. about Electric Vehicles.... 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't know about hourly changes but I know there are definitely places that charge more for "peak hours" and less for slower times such as over night.

Hourly charges are typically only for businesses that use a LOT of electricity.  Homes generally have rate windows, typically 3, sometimes 4. Its for that reason that most new dishwashers and laundry units have timers built in to automatically start after a set number of hours.  After dinner, load up the dishwasher and set it to start in 4 hours when it's low price electric time. 

Tesla's powerwall is setup to take advantage of this.  It will recharge from solar or during off-peak times, and then it can release energy back into the grid at peak time. In a properly optimized house, the Tesla powerwall could (slowly) pay for itself by nearly zeroing out an electric bill even without solar panels on the roof. 

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 Furthermore, the Bolt and Tesla both allow you to schedule your charging to be completed only during the cheap rates.

This is cool! Do you know if those schedules are done from the charger or from the car then? Like, do I set the car up to only accept charge from X:00 - XX:00? That is very cool, indeed.

[ccap41]

9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Hourly charges are typically only for businesses that use a LOT of electricity.  Homes generally have rate windows, typically 3, sometimes 4. Its for that reason that most new dishwashers and laundry units have timers built in to automatically start after a set number of hours.  After dinner, load up the dishwasher and set it to start in 4 hours when it's low price electric time. 

Tesla's powerwall is setup to take advantage of this.  It will recharge from solar or during off-peak times, and then it can release energy back into the grid at peak time. In a properly optimized house, the Tesla powerwall could (slowly) pay for itself by nearly zeroing out an electric bill even without solar panels on the roof. 

I never really thought about using the Power Wall for use like this. I knew the intentions were to use stored energy for the peak hours but I didn't even think of charging on the down time and not strictly a solar setup for the charging. I love the ideas of all of this stuff it just seems like you better be living in the home for 20 years to really get a payoff.

I also never realized that washer/drier/dishwasher timers could and are used like that. Ignorant me...

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This is cool! Do you know if those schedules are done from the charger or from the car then? Like, do I set the car up to only accept charge from X:00 - XX:00? That is very cool, indeed.

They're done from the app.  You put your electric rates and times into the app and the car decides when to start charging in order to finish a complete charge by a set time.  Generally, those rates only change every 6 months to 2 years.  The windows of on-peak and off-peak rarely ever change. 

For example, you can tell your Bolt that you leave for work every day around 7am. You pull into the garage at 6pm and plug it in. Since that is peak time, the Bolt won't start charging just yet.  It will wait until 9pm when the rates switch to off-peak and start charging as fast as possible to get you to full before 7am.

If you know you'll be leaving again at 9pm and need the full range of your battery, you can override the charging schedule in the app and ask for a full charge even at the on-peak rates. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I never really thought about using the Power Wall for use like this. I knew the intentions were to use stored energy for the peak hours but I didn't even think of charging on the down time and not strictly a solar setup for the charging. I love the ideas of all of this stuff it just seems like you better be living in the home for 20 years to really get a payoff.

I also never realized that washer/drier/dishwasher timers could and are used like that. Ignorant me...

In many/most of the high energy cost markets, something like Tesla's Powerwall would pay for itself in increased home value.  So even if you sell the home, the money you put into buying the powerwall would likely translate into a higher home value. There are a number of home upgrades that are like that.... we did that last year with our furnace and A/C.  The value of the home increased by more than what we spent to have it installed because the old furnace was really old. 

And yes, that's the primary reason for the timers on those units.   I suppose you could schedule it for other reasons too like noise... but it's primarily about energy rate planning. 

Texas has some of the largest variety of rate plans that I've seen.  There are plans that give you free weekends for the generation side of the bill (again, disclaimer, I work for an energy supplier that offers a plan like this, I am not promoting any specific company).  A smart consumer who knows they are home all day on Saturday can save up their laundry and some dishes and run them all day saturday. Or if they do a lot of cooking for the week and have an electric stove, they can save money that way.  Theoretically, such a consumer could "fill up" their Bolt for the week over the weekend if their commute is short enough (under 20 miles each way).  It would make the cost per mile of driving the Bolt virtually zero. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

More useful information, albeit a few years old.

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

But the numbers have not changed much.  I still pump gas for $2.07 (just yesterday), and I drive a near PZEV vehicle, which is very, very, VERY clean.  Some might even argue that in the Well to Wheel debate, it might be cleaner.  I won't, I will only mention that when people debate about saving the planet.

 

And Drew said it best, 

"I'll repeat - buying an EV is about saving a different kind of green.... it's not about the money. "

And he is right, because there is no money saved buying EV yet, at least not until you pay off the HUGE upfront costs.

[surreal1272]

So you agree that you were spreading FUD about rates and volatility vs gas and that the only problem is the upfront cost of an EV. Thanks for confirming that because the evidence was becoming pretty damning against you. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

One utility for one locality doesn't make it proof for the country as a whole.  Right now, I have a fix rate of 7.5 c/kWh for 24 months... yet if I posted my electric contract, that wouldn't be proof of anything. 

Furthermore, knowing what prices are at what times allows you to program the car to only charge during the cheap times. It's like knowing that the price of gasoline will be 25c lower in a few hours, so you wait to fill up. 

Stop spreading F.U.D. about Electric Vehicles.... 

 

This and then some!

[G. David Felt]

Have to Say that I do love the Chevy Bolt EV Savings Calculator as it gives so many options to play with.

http://www.chevyevlife.com/bolt-ev-savings-calculator

Have to say, Drew has stated this time and again, EV's right now is about saving a different type of Green. The BOLT is the first Mass Produced auto that delivers on this that addresses many peoples concerns.

• People worry about range, not a problem with 238 mile battery pack.
• People want quiet, EV's deliver that.
• People want their Tech connection, BOLT gives that.
• People want comfort, again this is given with the various packages.
• People want CUV's, this is give as the BOLT is the first CUV EV.
• People are tired of pumping gas and having that smell on their hands, EV's remove this.
• People want less maintenance, EV's give this.

I could go on and on, and yet I will also acknowledge that EV's are NOT for everyone. They have many things people like, many things people will miss about existing auto's. 

This is the time for EV's to start making a difference and if we want to have a cleaner planet, cleaner cities, cleaner air, then EV's have their place.

Much noise polution can be removed by cities mandating delivery trucks, buses and auto's be moved over to EV's.

[ccap41]

I'll be honest, I've never heard a single person complain about the smell of gasoline when pumping gas. I'm not saying it isn't a thing, I've just never heard of it other than you Mr. Felt.

[Drew Dowdell]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'll be honest, I've never heard a single person complain about the smell of gasoline when pumping gas. I'm not saying it isn't a thing, I've just never heard of it other than you Mr. Felt.

That may be partially because there's no alternative until now. I think once EVs become more mainstream it will become a thing.  I'm already there with my lawnmower... I switch from gas to an electric that was given to me and I doubt I'll ever go back to gas.

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'll be honest, I've never heard a single person complain about the smell of gasoline when pumping gas. I'm not saying it isn't a thing, I've just never heard of it other than you Mr. Felt.

Talk to woman, the number one complaint when the Female Engineering team started researching to build the Ford Flex was that Woman hated the smell of gas and having to touch the dirty gas cap.

The Engineering team was the first to remove the gas cap and integrate the vacume gas cap into the gas door. This allows you to push on the door, it pops open and you can then stick in the gas nozzle and pump.

Men have been for too long used to ignoring woman and not listening to what they want or like / dislike. If you talk and ask woman the top 5 things they dislike about cars, I bet you will hear gas smell, fueling, gas cap, maintenance.etc.

We just have not been used to asking let alone listening to what woman want.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Capless fuel is awesome. Seems so simple yet so convenient.  Old people love it because of their arthritis.  I have on several occasions helped an old person remove and attach their fuel caps while at the station.  It's on every Ford I drive.  But I did not know, nor is it a fact, that it was a woman's idea.  It's just a good idea, and I am sure many men think so as well.

 

As for the 'inconvenience' of adding fuel to my car every 10 days or so, I will say this.  I stop nearly every day anyway for either coffee or a beverage anyway.  The fuel only as needed.  Whereas having to remember to plug in every night can also be a pain.  And you don't just plug in, you also have to unplug and wrap cords.  And many probably forget and don't recall to do so, until they in the car and there is a reminder, having them get out to remove and wrap.  I only say all this because we so often hear you only have to plug in, and gas is such a pain.  Not true at all.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Just another check in the negative column, 

 

there was 80 people who died in just over a year of mining Cobalt, used in EV batteries.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/articles/electric-vehicles-loved-by-environmentalists-but-what-about-the-child-labor/

[G. David Felt]

59 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Just another check in the negative column, 

 

there was 80 people who died in just over a year of mining Cobalt, used in EV batteries.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/articles/electric-vehicles-loved-by-environmentalists-but-what-about-the-child-labor/

WOW, talk about nit picking, are you sure you want to open up this can of worms? We can go down all the negatives about petro cars from the child labor in China that builds various parts for cars to iPhones to clothes to the health issues with Petro / oil and the toxic issues on any car, to the negatives about all the maintenance.

Come on @Wings4Life we all get you clearly HATE EV's!

Talk and debate the actual auto rather than having to dive so far into the weeds of the back 160 acres.

Is any auto clean, planet friendly, NO. I am starting to get the feeling this is more about it being GM who brings out the first mass produced EV auto with rang world wide than your beloved Ford Motor Company.

How are you going to respond when Ford finally shows off their first long range EV? 

Are you going to be just like SMK and move the field goal posts to justify what Ford finally is building to compete against GM?

[FAPTurbo]

better throw away your phone, the computer you type on and anything with a lithium battery.

and MIT calculates that 200k die prematurely due to emissions, annually:

http://lae.mit.edu/air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year

not to mention many birth defects or childhood ailments that are now associated with emissions, especially diesel.

[G. David Felt]

So how does a Ford Fan feel about Fords first EV attempt. 

1967 Ford Comuta EV!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/electric-youth-fords-1967-comuta-ev-concept-was-a-city-car-for-swinging-london/

We know cause ford reports clearly state they will have a 200+ mile EV auto to compete against the BOLT.

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/ford-will-unveil-chevrolet-bolt-competitor-this-year/

Also Ford has decided to enter the e-bike market. So are e-bikes terrible because they are not pure original bikes?

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2011/09/18/ford-rides-into-e-bike-market-with-stunning-concept.html

https://www.cnet.com/news/ford-mode-ebikes-mwc-2015/

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WOW, talk about nit picking, are you sure you want to open up this can of worms? We can go down all the negatives about petro cars from the child labor in China that builds various parts for cars to iPhones to clothes to the health issues with Petro / oil and the toxic issues on any car, to the negatives about all the maintenance.

Come on @Wings4Life we all get you clearly HATE EV's!

Talk and debate the actual auto rather than having to dive so far into the weeds of the back 160 acres.

Is any auto clean, planet friendly, NO. I am starting to get the feeling this is more about it being GM who brings out the first mass produced EV auto with rang world wide than your beloved Ford Motor Company.

How are you going to respond when Ford finally shows off their first long range EV? 

Are you going to be just like SMK and move the field goal posts to justify what Ford finally is building to compete against GM?

It was front page news at the other site I visit.  There was no hunting.  And adds to the well to wheel debate mentioned earlier.  Very topical to the subject.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

18 minutes ago, bigpoolog said:

better throw away your phone, the computer you type on and anything with a lithium battery.

and MIT calculates that 200k die prematurely due to emissions, annually:

http://lae.mit.edu/air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year

not to mention many birth defects or childhood ailments that are now associated with emissions, especially diesel.

It comes down to volumes.  I bet the amount of Cobalt needed in one Bolt is more than the amount of total batteries used by 100 people in their entire lifetime for their phones and such.

[G. David Felt]

19 minutes ago, bigpoolog said:

better throw away your phone, the computer you type on and anything with a lithium battery.

and MIT calculates that 200k die prematurely due to emissions, annually:

http://lae.mit.edu/air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year

not to mention many birth defects or childhood ailments that are now associated with emissions, especially diesel.

Your so right, he just needs to give up everything especially his petro powered auto since the worst polluting areas in the word are the gas / oil refineries and coal burning power plants. The toxic levels emitted are just killers.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/toxic-air-pollution-concentrated-at-small-number-of-sites/ar-BBwLQ7P?OCID=ansmsnnews11

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

dfelt,

the topic is not just the vehicle, but EV technology.  It is budding and growing and one day will actually sell in volumes that people notice, sure. There is no debate there  and there are no need for extremes in conversation, as I see some of you resort to.  I don't believe I have stated anything extreme one way or the other regarding EV, as I think of this as a healthy debate to which we can also learn, and sorry, I will not blow smoke up any automakers rear like some here are clearly doing.  There are pro's and con's, clearly, and since some only focus on the pro's, I feel the need to include the other.  

[surreal1272]

39 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WOW, talk about nit picking, are you sure you want to open up this can of worms? We can go down all the negatives about petro cars from the child labor in China that builds various parts for cars to iPhones to clothes to the health issues with Petro / oil and the toxic issues on any car, to the negatives about all the maintenance.

Come on @Wings4Life we all get you clearly HATE EV's!

Talk and debate the actual auto rather than having to dive so far into the weeds of the back 160 acres.

Is any auto clean, planet friendly, NO. I am starting to get the feeling this is more about it being GM who brings out the first mass produced EV auto with rang world wide than your beloved Ford Motor Company.

How are you going to respond when Ford finally shows off their first long range EV? 

Are you going to be just like SMK and move the field goal posts to justify what Ford finally is building to compete against GM?

It's like he conventionally forgets the wars started for oil and the number of people killed for it. Simply baffling the cherry picking going on here. 

 

You are also right on the money where brand is concerned. This is all about who is releasing said car because if it had a blue oval on it, the story would be completely different. 

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

dfelt,

the topic is not just the vehicle, but EV technology.  It is budding and growing and one day will actually sell in volumes that people notice, sure. There is no debate there  and there are no need for extremes in conversation, as I see some of you resort to.  I don't believe I have stated anything extreme one way or the other regarding EV, as I think of this as a healthy debate to which we can also learn, and sorry, I will not blow smoke up any automakers rear like some here are clearly doing.  There are pro's and con's, clearly, and since some only focus on the pro's, I feel the need to include the other.  

Makes a post about eighty people dying mining for that EV power (to prove whatever point he is trying to make) yet says others are talking in extremes. He then says he will not blow smoke up any automakers rear like others do. Hmmmmm  

 

I see some things never change. 

28 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

It comes down to volumes.  I bet the amount of Cobalt needed in one Bolt is more than the amount of total batteries used by 100 people in their entire lifetime for their phones and such.

Volumes? Let's see. Ten thousand batteries for cars a month versus the millions of batteries made for phones sold a month. That's a hard one figure out there (obvious sarcasm). 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I see some would rather discuss me than the topic.

things certainly don't ever change.

[surreal1272]

22 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

I see some would rather discuss me than the topic.

things certainly don't ever change.

No they sure don't because you made this about yourself from the get go. I stand by my statement. The topic is still being discussed btw but you must be running out of ammunition to make a comment like that. 

 

One last thing. You tried to make it about me the other day with your "you're wrong and I think just afraid to admit it" post but let's just ignore that little double standard and get back to the topic. 

 

The Bolt is a great first step for GM in the true EV realm and hopefully it can gain some traction in the market. 

[FAPTurbo]

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

And you don't just plug in, you also have to unplug and wrap cords.  And many probably forget and don't recall to do so, until they in the car and there is a reminder, having them get out to remove and wrap.

lol i'll take removing the cord from my tesla and briskly hanging it every few days versus changing oil ever again

[surreal1272]

Just now, bigpoolog said:

lol i'll take removing the cord from my tesla and briskly hanging it every few days versus changing oil ever again

And even mentioning little things like a cord being left out is beyond reaching. Gosh! What if I forget to hang the fuel pump hose?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

57 minutes ago, bigpoolog said:

lol i'll take removing the cord from my tesla and briskly hanging it every few days versus changing oil ever again

You actually change your own oil?  There is practically no savings and hardly worth the effort.  I never change my own oil.  3 times a year or so I stop and they check tires, add washer fluid (front and rear), clean my front and rear window,  check brake fluid, signal lights, etc.  It's piece of mind for me, as I instruct my kids and wife to do same.  Sure, some will beat their chest how they can do all that on their car, but I own 5 vehicles, and I don't have time, nor do I want to anymore.  Oh, and while there, did I mention they change oil.  Easy Peasy

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

You actually change your own oil?  There is practically no savings and hardly worth the effort.  I never change my own oil.  3 times a year or so I stop and they check tires, add washer fluid (front and rear), clean my front and rear window,  check brake fluid, signal lights, etc.  It's piece of mind for me, as I instruct my kids and wife to do same.  Sure, some will beat their chest how they can do all that on their car, but I own 5 vehicles, and I don't have time, nor do I want to anymore.  Oh, and while there, did I mention they change oil.  Easy Peasy

Sorry but I save money every time I change my own oil (and I do) and having an EV would be a huge plus towards me not having to worry about it ever again. No changing the oil or taking time out of my day to have someone else do it (because time is money and more important to me).