Industry News: Midsize Sedans Are Experiencing Sales Freefall

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Well the Sonic is American made.  Anybody who has been here for any period of time knows I trade early and often.  Here's my current list of possibilities:

Mazda CX-3 Touring AWD

(without Bose radio that takes up precious cargo room).  This would make me a company man, as I work at our Mazda/Hyundai location.  We also sell all American brands of FCA and Buick/GMC.  We have a dark blue 2017 CX-3 Touring right now with no options for $24k MSRP.

Chevy Spark 1LT manual

Very worthy little car.  Heck, even Car & Driver loves it and calls it far and away the best in its class.  This could be bought and paid for with no payments.  Imagine that!

Chevy Cruze LT/RS hatch manual

All the latest GM small car thinking in a fine, practical form.  A larger car than the Spark with nearly comparable mileage ratings for about $7k more.  Stylish little beast, this one.

Chevy Trax Premiere AWD

Sliding my butt horizontally into and out of the seat has merit, and the AWD with 27 MPG average MPG rating, plus the upgraded 2017 style make it a real contender in a hot segment.  I would customize it with 2016 Trax Midnight Edition wheels.

Chevy Sonic Premiere RS 1.4t hatch manual

Very nearly the same cargo space as the Cruze hatch for about $2500 less money than the LT Cruze.  Very youthful appearance with the black wheels and whatnot, plus I really like the new 2017 style inside and out.

Buick Encore Essence AWD 153 hp 1.4t

Clearly upscale from its brother Trax, I think I could swing one of these with an employee discount.  Besides the price, only other thing I don't like is the stop/start business on the newer engine.

Jeep Renegade Trailhawk

I love the looks of these in Trailhawk form.  They drive like a bigger vehicle, they're comfortable and practical.  Plus I love the "baby butch" image they exude.  Two things though:  no green available on the 2017 model...  plus I went over to Edmunds' owner reviews for the 2015 (first model year) Renegade, and frankly there were too many frighteningly bad experiences, especially with electrical issues.  Disappointing.

Awesome list, I think you should do the Trax or Encore.  Those are nice rides, probably the Encore as my choice out of that list.

[ocnblu]

Drew, 2012 Cruze LT 1.4t manual.  Was a rebound decision after my 2011 Fiesta (which I enjoyed driving except for the weak motor) was totaled in a wreck.  Kept it... wow, was it really 4 munts?  Traded on my 2012 Patriot.

Edited September 12, 2016 by ocnblu

[Robert Hall]

12 hours ago, dfelt said:

Awesome list, I think you should do the Trax or Encore.  Those are nice rides, probably the Encore as my choice out of that list.

After a 300 mile weekend road trip in my sister's Trax last month, I'm impressed at how well it drives...comfortable, with enough power for freeway driving and overtaking..not bad on high altitude hills either. 

[ocnblu]

See, I've seen so many positive reviews on the Trax (except for interior materials, which I'm OK with) but I have yet to drive one on the road.  Local dealer has a '16 LT in metallic black with the black and brown cloth and vinyl interior.  I think the interior is fine, really like the brown.  I must have fog lights tho.  Plus, it would be a shame to pick up a '16 this late in the model year when the '17 is notably upgraded.  I thank you for the review, Moltie, means more than a lot of the YouTube kid reviews.

[A Horse With No Name]

On 9/8/2016 at 11:33 PM, dfelt said:

Still like this Encore interior better than the mess of the MDX.

Acura has so lost their way, as has Infinity.  Lexus builds some neat stuff, but it lacks the style of Audi and GM.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

See, I've seen so many positive reviews on the Trax (except for interior materials, which I'm OK with) but I have yet to drive one on the road.  Local dealer has a '16 LT in metallic black with the black and brown cloth and vinyl interior.  I think the interior is fine, really like the brown.  I must have fog lights tho.  Plus, it would be a shame to pick up a '16 this late in the model year when the '17 is notably upgraded.  I thank you for the review, Moltie, means more than a lot of the YouTube kid reviews.

I like the Trax, but were I to be spending twenty something at a Chevrolet/GMC dealer, I would be buying a Canyon or Colorado.

13 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Drew, 2012 Cruze LT 1.4t manual.  Was a rebound decision after my 2011 Fiesta (which I enjoyed driving except for the weak motor) was totaled in a wreck.  Kept it... wow, was it really 4 munts?  Traded on my 2012 Patriot.

I like your truck better, actually....

[Drew Dowdell]

21 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Drew, 2012 Cruze LT 1.4t manual.  Was a rebound decision after my 2011 Fiesta (which I enjoyed driving except for the weak motor) was totaled in a wreck.  Kept it... wow, was it really 4 munts?  Traded on my 2012 Patriot.

That's barely even a long term rental!

[A Horse With No Name]

On 9/11/2016 at 8:11 PM, ocnblu said:

Well the Sonic is American made.  Anybody who has been here for any period of time knows I trade early and often.  Here's my current list of possibilities:

Mazda CX-3 Touring AWD

(without Bose radio that takes up precious cargo room).  This would make me a company man, as I work at our Mazda/Hyundai location.  We also sell all American brands of FCA and Buick/GMC.  We have a dark blue 2017 CX-3 Touring right now with no options for $24k MSRP.

Chevy Spark 1LT manual

Very worthy little car.  Heck, even Car & Driver loves it and calls it far and away the best in its class.  This could be bought and paid for with no payments.  Imagine that!

Chevy Cruze LT/RS hatch manual

All the latest GM small car thinking in a fine, practical form.  A larger car than the Spark with nearly comparable mileage ratings for about $7k more.  Stylish little beast, this one.

Chevy Trax Premiere AWD

Sliding my butt horizontally into and out of the seat has merit, and the AWD with 27 MPG average MPG rating, plus the upgraded 2017 style make it a real contender in a hot segment.  I would customize it with 2016 Trax Midnight Edition wheels.

Chevy Sonic Premiere RS 1.4t hatch manual

Very nearly the same cargo space as the Cruze hatch for about $2500 less money than the LT Cruze.  Very youthful appearance with the black wheels and whatnot, plus I really like the new 2017 style inside and out.

Buick Encore Essence AWD 153 hp 1.4t

Clearly upscale from its brother Trax, I think I could swing one of these with an employee discount.  Besides the price, only other thing I don't like is the stop/start business on the newer engine.

Jeep Renegade Trailhawk

I love the looks of these in Trailhawk form.  They drive like a bigger vehicle, they're comfortable and practical.  Plus I love the "baby butch" image they exude.  Two things though:  no green available on the 2017 model...  plus I went over to Edmunds' owner reviews for the 2015 (first model year) Renegade, and frankly there were too many frighteningly bad experiences, especially with electrical issues.  Disappointing.

Trailhawk would be awesome, but yes YouTube is full of horror stories about these.  I would prefer a basic Renegade with the 1.6 and the manual, but alloy wheels.  Not really into most of your other choices...only two "micro" cars I like are the Fiat 500 Abarth (most of the people I know that bought them sold them back under the lemon law) and the Fiesta ST.  Like the Mitsu Evo, drives fantastic but the economy car roots show through...kind of like the girls in the eighties, with bleached blonde hair and black roots....it's really freaking obvious....

35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's barely even a long term rental!

Look at the bright side, he never keeps a car long enough to have to wash it....

[ocnblu]

[riviera74]

So nobody wants to buy a midsize car, and every automaker is making cash hand over fist with crossovers and SUVs.  Maybe every automaker should move their midsize car production to Mexico and pocket the difference.  Ford already does with their Fusion.

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

So nobody wants to buy a midsize car, and every automaker is making cash hand over fist with crossovers and SUVs.  Maybe every automaker should move their midsize car production to Mexico and pocket the difference.  Ford already does with their Fusion.

Even better... build the midsize cars here, and build "Outback/Cross Country"wagons, and crossovers off the same platform like Volvo does. 

[ccap41]

39 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Even better... build the midsize cars here, and build "Outback/Cross Country"wagons, and crossovers off the same platform like Volvo does. 

What else is shared with the mid size sedans like the Fusion, Malibu, Camry, Accord? Are they all only used for those cars? Are there any of the 16 cars in the class sharing their platform with anything else? Because if so, they should definitely work on new platforms to be utilized for crossovers AND cars. Seems like a lot of money to be saved in the long run with a platform like that.

Edited September 16, 2016 by ccap41

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What else is shared with the mid size sedans like the Fusion, Malibu, Camry, Accord? Are they all only used for those cars? Are there any of the 16 cars in the class sharing their platform with anything else? Because if so, they should definitely work on new platforms to be utilized for crossovers AND cars. Seems like a lot of money to be saved in the long run with a platform like that.

The old CX-9 was shared with the Fusion. For obvious reasons, that is no longer the case.... but it shows that the Fusion platform could be used in an SUV.

The Taurus (while technically full size), has been shared with the Edge, Explorer, Flex, MKT, and MKX. 

Camry, Highlander, RX, Sienna, Venza, and Avalon are all on the Toyota K platform

Accord, MDX, Pilot, Odyssey are all related.

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I have off the top of my head.

[ccap41]

32 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The old CX-9 was shared with the Fusion. For obvious reasons, that is no longer the case.... but it shows that the Fusion platform could be used in an SUV.

The Taurus (while technically full size), has been shared with the Edge, Explorer, Flex, MKT, and MKX. 

Camry, Highlander, RX, Sienna, Venza, and Avalon are all on the Toyota K platform

Accord, MDX, Pilot, Odyssey are all related.

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I have off the top of my head.

Oh that isn't too bad then. It sounds like they're all doing it right then.

[Frisky Dingo]

On 9/10/2016 at 10:32 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

If you could pick up a loaded 200C for like $27k, that would be a very satisfying and comfortable way to spend that kind of money. Torquey V6, AWD, UConnect, heated and cooled seats, active cruise control.....  You're not going to get all that at Honda, Toyota, or even Chevy. 

No way would I pay 27K for that car. Had a customer with one just last week. '15 w/ 15K on it. Car was worth 18K. Depreciation on a whole 'nother level.

[Drew Dowdell]

13 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

No way would I pay 27K for that car. Had a customer with one just last week. '15 w/ 15K on it. Car was worth 18K. Depreciation on a whole 'nother level.

That's what leases are for. 

[Frisky Dingo]

16 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's what leases are for. 

In my experience, D/C/J/R's leases suck. Her lease payment was $575 for a 36 month/ 36,000 mile w/ $0 down. You can lease a 340i for that, lol.

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

In my experience, D/C/J/R's leases suck. Her lease payment was $575 for a 36 month/ 36,000 mile w/ $0 down. You can lease a 340i for that, lol.

You didn't get the whole story then... or she was substantially upside down on her previous car.  This is before any dealer negotiation even....  The woman needs a financial coach, not a new car.

[A Horse With No Name]

42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You didn't get the whole story then... or she was substantially upside down on her previous car.  This is before any dealer negotiation even....  The woman needs a financial coach, not a new car.

Why would you lease that at 10K a year when you could buy it for twenty bucks more a month?

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Why would you lease that at 10K a year when you could buy it for twenty bucks more a month?

Lease gives you a dedicated value at the end, buying does not so while it is rare for a used car to hold far more value after 2 or 3 years, the promised trade in value allows people who are not sure if they want to be in the auto for 5 or more years to use the auto, then trade it in for a new one and not deal with a used auto and repairs. For a business it is easier to write off the cost of the least and make sure your employee is in a reliable auto to get their job done.

Many reasons to lease over buy. Yet with that said if you are one to hold onto an auto for more than 3 years, then leasing is probably not right for you.

[A Horse With No Name]

33 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Lease gives you a dedicated value at the end, buying does not so while it is rare for a used car to hold far more value after 2 or 3 years, the promised trade in value allows people who are not sure if they want to be in the auto for 5 or more years to use the auto, then trade it in for a new one and not deal with a used auto and repairs. For a business it is easier to write off the cost of the least and make sure your employee is in a reliable auto to get their job done.

Many reasons to lease over buy. Yet with that said if you are one to hold onto an auto for more than 3 years, then leasing is probably not right for you.

I always figured the lease was written a little bit in favor of the bank.  But I could see how this would work.

[Drew Dowdell]

The monthly payment in that one is after an aprox $4,000 down payment, so it's not an apples to apples comparison. 

[Frisky Dingo]

@Drew Dowdell

 

Sorry, her car was an S. No matter. Building a car out to her specs, which was loaded (she said it stickered for right at 36K), on Chrysler's very own website a 36 month/45,000 mile lease before tax w/ no money down is $534 a month. Add taxes to that, and you're at $575 all day.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, Frisky Dingo said:

@Drew Dowdell

 

Sorry, her car was an S. No matter. Building a car out to her specs, which was loaded (she said it stickered for right at 36K), on Chrysler's very own website a 36 month/45,000 mile lease before tax w/ no money down is $534 a month. Add taxes to that, and you're at $575 all day.

As I said... there wasn't the whole story.  She had an up-level mileage lease.... and she got taken to the cleaners by the dealership. No one pays sticker even on an Accord, much less a 200S.... and that's what I was saying.  The sticker may be $36k, but deals on the car abound and one can find deals out there easily. Getting a $33k 200S and leasing it at $27k was what my original post was about. 

 

[Frisky Dingo]

And the lease example you provided on that car was still a terrible deal, lol.

[regfootball]

Want to run this idea past some.

I still find the Impala market viable and as a new Malibu driver, I can attest that the Malibu is great but still is not a full sedan and does not ride like those who like full sizers like.

Yet all the schizzle is crossovers.  Maybe, maybe, the next Impala should be a large Ford Edge sized crossover (maybe with a roof a bit lower and sexier), 2 row.....extended sedan crossover.....think Kizashi concept or Acura ZDX, or a decent looking Venza.......  or a 'Panamera crossover'.

No doubt in Impala's legacy is wagon...it's not like Impala name hasn't been put on a utility vehicle before.  Maybe the next Impala is a sedan and crossover choice, where the rear aft of second row is the main differentiator...... the crossover could have a fastback hatch, and the sedan could be a trunk...... the sedan would be higher or just ditch the sedan altogether and just make the Impala crossover look sexy and rakish as hell with recognizable Chevy Impala design cues.  Put it on the Xt5, Lacrosse platform, give it AWD option, and the twin turbo option.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

It sounds like you just described a Chevy competitors to the Ford Flex?

[regfootball]

no, just want it to be 2 rows only.  Edge sized or a bit larger.  Not trucky looking like a typical crossover.

[regfootball]

larger than this, and certainly not awkward like this, but ride height is sort of what i am thinking about

 

 

 

 

 

[regfootball]

 

 

what exactly did Venza miss on......it seems to have a wagonesque thing going on from certain angles, and some ungainliness.  The firewall prob a bit far forward cause it looks a bit minivanish.  Needs longer dash to greenhouse but not so much to be a wagon.

But Venza size is not far off. Ride height on Venza less than other CUV's...i'd get my mom a Venza if it weren't a Toyota and didn't have a few dorky angles of view.

My point here is if Impalas lose sales, and CUV's are selling, make your 'large sedan' (Impala) into a crossover, and then that opens up some room in the market to make your midsize (the Malibu) possibly get a few more sales too.

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

The Venzas issue was the face. 

[regfootball]

wish i was good at sketching or digital modeling, i'd try to work up what i am thinking

[Suaviloquent]

Apparently the new Faraday Future crossover resembles a camo'd up Toyota Venza...

 

[riviera74]

Why would anyone turn an Impala into a crossover or wagon these days?  How would Chevy justify the Equinox?

[regfootball]

Equinox is now downsizing to true compact chassis, plus its not sexy styled, just looks like run of the mill typical SUV

An Impala sports crossover could break the mold.  I think of a jacked up panamera (not a Cayenne)

 

Impala is top of the line and not econo like an Equinox.  think 400 hp twin turbo v6 and AWD