GM News: GM's Workers At Oshawa Want A Deal That Ensures The Future of Production

[William Maley]

This week, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Ford, and General Motors begin talks with Unifor, Canada’s auto workers union for new agreements. GM will likely have the most contentious talks as workers at GM's Oshawa plant don't know what the future holds after 2018.

 

The plant has already lost a third shift and about 1,000 jobs when it moved production of the Camaro to Lansing last year. Next year will see the end of production of the Chevrolet Equinox, leaving just the Buick Regal and Cadillac XTS. GM has said time and time again for the past two years that it needs to know labor costs before making any decisions on the plant, only causing the worry to increase.

 

“The company in the past have had feasibility studies or launch teams if we are going to get product. This year, there’s no feasibility studies going on, no launch teams,” said Colin James, president of Unifor Local 222 to The Detroit News.

 

“Of course, it’s led to a lot of our members in the plant asking questions. There’s uncertainty: ‘Why is there no launch team?’ ‘Are they planning on closing the facility?’ General Motors is basically not answering that question.”

 

Yesterday at a news conference in Toronto, Unifor president Jerry Dias said workers at Oshawa will not sign a contract unless there are plans for production.

 

“We are not going to leave negotiations until we have a firm commitment from General Motors on product,” said Dias.

 

“We firmly believe General Motors will exit Oshawa unless we have a firm commitment.”

 

But GM has said that it will not make any commitments on investments until there is an agreement in place.

 

“We won’t be in a position to make a competitive investment decision until after we are through the negotiations,” said David Paterson, GM Canada’s vice-president of corporate affairs.

 

“We understand that there is a lot of anxiety about Oshawa," Paterson said. He went onto say that GM's focus during the talks is to work on an agreement that is "mutually beneficial and economically competitive."

 

Whether or not GM and Unifor are able to work an agreement before September 19th remains to be seen. We'll be keeping a close eye on this.

 

Source: The Toronto Star, The Detroit News

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[FordCosworth]

There should have been assurances put forth when the Canadian Federal and Ontario provincial governments bailed them out that GM would keep X products being assembled in Canada.

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh please, I can see Oshawa closing from here..... I don't know why the workers on site wouldn't see it. 

[William Maley]

Oh please, I can see Oshawa closing from here..... I don't know why the workers on site wouldn't see it. 

I think they know as well, they just don't want it to come to fruition. 

[oldshurst442]

Well.

I also saw this coming when the CDN government sold off their remaining shares in GM.

 

I wanted to say if I was in charge of these things I would have kept a controlling interest in GM Canada shares to prevent Oshawa from closing forcing GM Detroit Headquarters to keep Oshawa open with cars being built there, but Im not sure the bailout agreement was written that way for that to happen...

 

Yep. Oshawa will be closing.

 

I wonder what El Kabong thinks about this...will he vehemently HATE on GM now he being Canadian and all?

 

Us Canadians are kinda like you Americans (THANX OBAMA), Im sure he will just blame Justin Trudeau for this and continue on ranting about FoMoCo.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/canada-sells-remaining-shares-in-general-motors-1428363868

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/04/08/gm-share-sale-canadian-government_n_

 

7024464.html

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canada-to-sell-final-73-4-million-shares-of-gm-from-bailout/article23814942/

 

from the last link above:

Labour leaders had urged Ontario and Ottawa to hold on to the shares as a bargaining chip in securing pledges from GM to maintain jobs in Canada.

“It would have been ideal for the government to hold on to the shares and use that to leverage General Motors to make a strong commitment to the facility in Oshawa,” said Hassan Yussuff, President of the Canadian Labour Congress, in an interview Monday. “Obviously, the government is using every means possible to raise as much cash as they can without considering the future of the auto industry in the country.”

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

I think more of the blame lies with the CAW than with the Canadian government. 

[oldshurst442]

Im disappointed in this as I see the writing on the wall.

Damned right pissed off I am.

But at the end of the day, GM has to remain profitable and if the CAW  and Oshawa cannot come to an agreement for GM to remain profitable in any way they can. Then so be it.

 

Canada should be looking at Hyundai and anybody else to build their cars here, not just GM, Ford and Chrysler,  but that also means that the CAW has to realize that Mexico is quite competitive and adept in building cars too...and part of NAFTA...

 

 

EDIT:

BECAUSE I AGREE WITH DREW ABOUT THE CAW AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON BEFORE DREW MADE HIS LAST POST!!!

Edited August 11, 2016 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

If the Regal and XTS are all they are making, that plant looks like it is closing.  XTS doesn't have much time left, the next Regal could be built where any Epsilon car is made, and they don't make that many of them to begin with.

 

Sadly I think most sedans from the Big 3 will get built in Mexico where the labor is cheaper, and the SUVs and trucks will get made here.  Unless the UAW wants to accept starting wages at $18 an hour not $29 an hour these jobs will keep leaving.  All these factories offer overtime, an entry level auto worker could still make $40k a year with benefits at $18-19 an hour.  UAW wants $60-70k a year wages to build cars, no wonder the Big 3 are leaving.  The unions aren't doing their members any favors, and the didn't do them any favors in the 90s or 2000s either.    Notice the non-union auto factories in the South are not shutting down, most of them are expanding.  And I am democrat.

Edited August 12, 2016 by smk4565

[G. David Felt]

No one promises you work or a job for life, and business should never do it. Reality is you keep your trade skills sharp and learn new things or become unemployed. I am so sick of unions thinking they are superior and have to have promises of lifelong employment. Welcome to the 21st century and if you are that ignorant to not see this coming you deserve what you get.

[El Kabong]

Oh please, I can see Oshawa closing from here..... I don't know why the workers on site wouldn't see it.

Fear makes for powerful blinders. I feel for my former co-workers. But Oshawa is done. The Government of Ontario and Unifor have combined to make it too expensive to make cars in the province. Ingersoll should take notice.

I think more of the blame lies with the CAW than with the Canadian government.

The Feds don't have much say about it. The Provincial government is mainly to blame on the elected-official side of the table.

[daves87rs]

If the Regal and XTS are all they are making, that plant looks like it is closing.  XTS doesn't have much time left, the next Regal could be built where any Epsilon car is made, and they don't make that many of them to begin with.

 

Sadly I think most sedans from the Big 3 will get built in Mexico where the labor is cheaper, and the SUVs and trucks will get made here.  Unless the UAW wants to accept starting wages at $18 an hour not $29 an hour these jobs will keep leaving.  All these factories offer overtime, an entry level auto worker could still make $40k a year with benefits at $18-19 an hour.  UAW wants $60-70k a year wages to build cars, no wonder the Big 3 are leaving.  The unions aren't doing their members any favors, and the didn't do them any favors in the 90s or 2000s either.    Notice the non-union auto factories in the South are not shutting down, most of them are expanding.  And I am democrat.

 

 

Just sedans? You must be kidding.....FCA has plans to have most of their lineup built in Mexico or imported in the next ten years.....and I expect other automakers to build more down there too, as Wall Street expects a better profit margin from the automakers.....

[daves87rs]

Oh please, I can see Oshawa closing from here..... I don't know why the workers on site wouldn't see it. 

 

 

They knew that 10 years ago.......

[hyperv6]

Times have changes and Unions can no longer dictate what they want. The CAW needs to learn what most of the UAW locals have learned. 

Today GM has more plants and capacity than they need. The locals that are thriving have learned to work with GM and make a plant profitable and competitive. They make deals that are beneficial to both sides. Places like Lordstown were a steaming heap of non competitiveness. GM was on the way to closing them down. But the local there has learned to work with the new GM and they have been rewarded with good product and much in overtime. GM is making money and the UAW workers are making money. 

We see the same in Kansas and most Michigan plants. So far this is working well with balance. 

The CAW at Oshawa has been hostile and demanding and that does not play anymore. GM has options and choices that do not have to include Mexico anymore. 

Before GM had few options with the unions and were forced into many bad deals and I see them protecting themselves from this. 

 

Some folks need to still get it thought their heads that it takes a good relationship on both sides to make this work. MFG are not endless pits of money that can be abused or we will end up like 2008 but eve much faster. 

The truth is companies are here to make money and produce income to share holders. Their primary purpose is not just to provide jobs. Harsh sounding but that is how life is. As in nature a salmon must die to support a Bear. But in this case things can be worked out to where very one benefits if both sides are smart. 

As it is Oshawa got a big head as they had good ratings in quality and have a large facility but that matters little in today's markets where pretty much any plant can match their quality and smaller plants can beat their efficiency. 

[El Kabong]

Well.

I also saw this coming when the CDN government sold off their remaining shares in GM.

 

I wanted to say if I was in charge of these things I would have kept a controlling interest in GM Canada shares to prevent Oshawa from closing forcing GM Detroit Headquarters to keep Oshawa open with cars being built there, but Im not sure the bailout agreement was written that way for that to happen...

 

Yep. Oshawa will be closing.

 

I wonder what El Kabong thinks about this...will he vehemently HATE on GM now he being Canadian and all?

 

Us Canadians are kinda like you Americans (THANX OBAMA), Im sure he will just blame Justin Trudeau for this and continue on ranting about FoMoCo.

Nonsense.

In all likelihood it was Montreal's supremely inept manufacturing plant that helped secure me at least two or three more years in Oshawa than I would otherwise have gotten.

Now stop grasping at straws. You just look silly

[oldshurst442]

 

Well.

I also saw this coming when the CDN government sold off their remaining shares in GM.

 

I wanted to say if I was in charge of these things I would have kept a controlling interest in GM Canada shares to prevent Oshawa from closing forcing GM Detroit Headquarters to keep Oshawa open with cars being built there, but Im not sure the bailout agreement was written that way for that to happen...

 

Yep. Oshawa will be closing.

 

I wonder what El Kabong thinks about this...will he vehemently HATE on GM now he being Canadian and all?

 

Us Canadians are kinda like you Americans (THANX OBAMA), Im sure he will just blame Justin Trudeau for this and continue on ranting about FoMoCo.

Nonsense.

In all likelihood it was Montreal's supremely inept manufacturing plant that helped secure me at least two or three more years in Oshawa than I would otherwise have gotten.

Now stop grasping at straws. You just look silly

 

 

I know about that plant....

 

Chevy Celebrities would be rolling off the line while the GM worker would be sitting down on a chair reading Le Journal de Montréal and when the Celebrity would be at his station, the GM worker would put down his newspaper, get up, approach the vehicle, do what he has to do and go back to his paper awaiting the next vehicle to come his way...

 

My dad bought a brand new 1986 Chevy Celebrity.  Iron Duke powered, AM radio only stripper. I still have fond memories of that car. It served our family well!

 

This aint about that.

Its about me calling you out on a certain hypocritical view point you may have regarding GM versus FoMoCo.

 

You brought up Saint-Thérèse...

You have countless of times knocked Ford for mediocrity...

 

You see where Im getting at?

 

YOU take shots at Ford for mediocrity...

YOU brought up Sainte-Thérèse...

I call you up on hypocrisy....

 

Sorry El K...

C'est La Vie!

 

 

 

I REALLY SHOULD DO A CANADIAN ONE....

Edited August 14, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Don't be sorry.

I ain't, so why should you be?

[oldshurst442]

Don't be sorry.

I ain't, so why should you be?

 

 

Oh...that wasnt me being apologetic..

 

That was me being polite telling you to...go get your &@#$+# shine box

 

Trying to make it seem like Im kidding with you....busting your ballz a little bit...

[El Kabong]

Oh.

...I still don't feel bad. Ford stuff don't do a whole lot for me at the best of times, and too many of their fans say stupid things for me to not laugh/cringe at them.

Like blaming True-d'oh for Oshawa's predicament, for instance. There's plenty I can make fun of him for... but this ain't one of them.

Sure helped you make a nice leap to take a dig at me tho

Edited August 14, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

Oh.

...I still don't feel bad. Ford stuff don't do a whole lot for me at the best of times, and too many of their fans say stupid things for me to not laugh/cringe at.

 

Riiiiiight!

 

You consume yourself silly daily laughing at Ford because of what Ford fans say....

 

What you just said  would be some of the stupid things GM fans say and THAT makes ANYBODY laugh/cringe at...

 

Again...this whole hypocrisy thing...

You just cant seem to shake that off, can you?

 

 

About Trudeau and taking a nice leap to take a dig at you....

 

That is the beauty of it....

You probably thought of it...so it wasnt much of a nice leap  as it was a just a little casual stroll...laughing at you....having fun at your expense, the way I did with Wings....

 

Its easy to do to both of you since both of you have only 1 objective....

 

OK....

ONWARD and upward moving forward about Oshawa.....

Edited August 15, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Times have changes and Unions can no longer dictate what they want. The CAW needs to learn what most of the UAW locals have learned. 

Today GM has more plants and capacity than they need. The locals that are thriving have learned to work with GM and make a plant profitable and competitive. They make deals that are beneficial to both sides. Places like Lordstown were a steaming heap of non competitiveness. GM was on the way to closing them down. But the local there has learned to work with the new GM and they have been rewarded with good product and much in overtime. GM is making money and the UAW workers are making money. 

We see the same in Kansas and most Michigan plants. So far this is working well with balance. 

The CAW at Oshawa has been hostile and demanding and that does not play anymore. GM has options and choices that do not have to include Mexico anymore. 

Before GM had few options with the unions and were forced into many bad deals and I see them protecting themselves from this. 

 

Some folks need to still get it thought their heads that it takes a good relationship on both sides to make this work. MFG are not endless pits of money that can be abused or we will end up like 2008 but eve much faster. 

The truth is companies are here to make money and produce income to share holders. Their primary purpose is not just to provide jobs. Harsh sounding but that is how life is. As in nature a salmon must die to support a Bear. But in this case things can be worked out to where very one benefits if both sides are smart. 

As it is Oshawa got a big head as they had good ratings in quality and have a large facility but that matters little in today's markets where pretty much any plant can match their quality and smaller plants can beat their efficiency. 

 

Bump....

 

Because the last couple of posts after this one is just a hot pile of shyte!

And THIS is bang on to what is going on in Oshawa.

[El Kabong]

Nice hot take.

Or you could ask the guy who, you know, used to actually WORK AT OSHAWA.

...back in '06 or so when the 'schwa was churning out Impalas and Centurys to fleets far and wide I told a union brother that as it currently sits the place had about ten or fifteen years left in it. He thought I was nuts. But I read the news and the magazines and sales and percentage breakdowns. The place was building mostly mediocre stuff-that simple. And I wasn't afraid to bust GM's chops for it even as I helped build it, mainly in the old AWCC. Just awful stuff. Even their "innovations" were bad-transverse smallblocks driving front wheels wider than the rears?

The housing crash and Great Recession came shortly after, of course. And in between the (very good) truck plant got taken away because of cheaper labor in Mexico. The product deficiencies and truck plant, plus the recession, should have clued Unifor in that things needed to change, and clued in management that they needed better product to build.

Unfortunately the union missed the point entirely, and the product was hit (Camaro) and miss (Regal). I suspect that CAW/Unifor had reached the same conclusions about Oshawa as I had but decided on a long-term strategy of getting the old boys as many 30-year pensions as they could rather then roll with the punches and restructure contracts and wage models. And now you have the endgame playing out before your eyes.

Alternately, you could do verbal diarrhea with personal digs and politician name-dropping as informed conversation. I'll see if I can get Mean Gene Okerlund on the phone to moderate that.

Edited August 15, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

verbal diarrhea is what you do....

 

Like Wings.....YOU are VERY insightful...yet you dont share those views with us....you grace our presence with crap biased agaisnt and solely at Ford..and to get away with it..you have nice Vince McMahon speeches yourself, such as your signature: It's just facts. Nothing personal.

 

 

You wanna get Mean Gene Okerlund?

 

OK....as long as I could get  Stone Cold Steve Austin!

[El Kabong]

Nonsense.

My time in Oshawa was absolutely critical to making the views I hold today. I saw firsthand the futility of whoring out to fleet and minimizing product innovation. I saw people pat themselves on the back and crow about improvements in sales numbers and vehicle quality when they were only measuring against their own past efforts. Most of all, I saw how destructive those blinders and hidebound ideologies were to a brand.

At this point I should point out that you're choosing a guy who slapped around his wife to use as an example for... well, I'm not really sure what.

Jes' sayin'

[El Kabong]

Now, Oshawa. Been there, done that, saw it coming, got out before the trainwreck.

Shall we continue?

[oldshurst442]

Nonsense.

My time in Oshawa was absolutely critical to making the views I hold today. I saw firsthand the futility of whoring out to fleet and minimizing product innovation. I saw people pat themselves on the back and crow about improvements in sales numbers and vehicle quality when they were only measuring against their own past efforts. Most of all, I saw how destructive those blinders and hidebound ideologies were to a brand.

At this point I should point out that you're choosing a guy who slapped around his wife to use as an example for... well, I'm not really sure what.

Jes' sayin'

 

Jes sayin....for what?

 

Stone Cold Steve is just a character on TV and the wrestling circuit...for entertainment

Just like this character......

 

 

 

The man playing Stone Cold Steve is the one with the problems...

Dont know him, dont really care for him...

 

However....I aint the one that has named my internet persona as some sort of sexual perverse joke of some sort....

 

URBAN DICTIONARY:

 

 

El Kabong

A surprise attack using a flacid penis to startle an unsuspecting victim. This is usually done by slapping a distracted person across the face or head with your penis while yelling the phrase "El Kabong" to proclaim your successful prank over the El Kabonged individual, and alert any witnesses to the humorous use of your private parts.

 

 

Jes sayin'

 

 

And yes...we can continue...

Onward, upward and moving forward.

Edited August 15, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Again: feel free to reference my first-hand experience in Oshawa. It's worlds better than whatever you carry on with. And if has important lessons in there for those wise enough to see and do.

[oldshurst442]

Yeah....like I have said...

 

YOU have lots and lots to offer...a lot of insight.

THAT is what I want from you.

 

NOT the BS Ford trolling that you do and then masquerading it as facts, and then saying its nothing personal like you are a Messiah of some sort....

Oh....and we are wise enough to see and do..and when we see BS from you, we let you know about it...

 

Then we take a few digs at you...all in the name of fun of course!

Its just entertainment. Nothing personal.

[hyperv6]

Sometimes the moth closest to the flame is the one that dies as he may not see the big picture but he is the one that feels the effects. 

 

With the public demands we have seen and the private ones we have not seen GM nor anyone would like that kind of a deal. 

If they would get a better deal they would stay if they continue to get major demands from the union that are not like what they get else where they will be gone. 

 

Nothing personal here it is just simple business. 

We saw it here with the tire factories where the URW would not work with the companies when the MFG's offered new plants. The one major stumbling block was for them to work 8 hours for 8 hours pay. It had been set up in the depression to work 6 hours for 8 hours pay to help employ one more shift. In the 70's the companies wanted 3 shifts at 8 hours and it was rejected along with other demands given them,. 

Today the plants went south and either have more competitive unions or no union.  Today we have only a couple corporate offices and R&D facilities. 

 

This is what is going on with automakers today as they can build cars anywhere they like and jobs are shopped to locals. Winners generally offer the best union package. 

 

The only thing fleet sales have done is cust back on volume and made it to where a larger plant like Oshawa is no longer needed as the volume can be satisfied anywhere. 

Also add in the value of the dollar and other things going on. The social Canadian government has not help draw in many companies in either. 

[G. David Felt]

Seems the Union boss are posting videos about the closing and their feeling on it. Detroit news posted this.

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/videos/business/4070317014001/5077807733001/

[El Kabong]

Also add in the value of the dollar and other things going on. The social Canadian government has not help draw in many companies in either.

The dollar is actually at an acceptable range for exports. By the same token, socialized programs are funded by the taxpayer and thus good news for an employer unwilling to spend too much on benefits.

The major drawback government-wise is a Provincial issue: the exorbitant cost of electricity.

[hyperv6]

Right now the dollar is better but that is not always a given.

No matter who funds the social programs the demands of the union are the issue here. They want to dictate to GM as the UAW used to do. The CAW needs to learn they need GM more than GM needs them.

As for Canada. I have a couple Pontiac buddies from the Taranto area. They are very unhappy with the way things are going there. the immigration issues are taxing the healthcare systems that can not handle much more than what they have. They said the cost of living and housing is off the charts and the new Prime Minister is just going to pile on more.

we spoke about the Union up there and they both said that they have to learn they no longer hold the trump (not the Don)card on GM as in the past.

What gets lost on us in America is we tend to think of Canada as a large country. Well they are by land mass but many of our states and even a few of our cities hold more people than all of Canada. Things are different there but yet the advantage Oshawa used to hold is no longer and the CAW is burning their bridges when they try to play hardball.

If you were GM and had a plant in the states with a UAW union that is willing to work with you or you have a hostile CAW union making demands who would you want to cultivate a relationship with.

To be honest I think the stake the UAW owns in GM is making them see things differently. While they do not hold control they do hold the ability to help keep GM profitable and if they do they will benefit from it. In a way its like Employee owned or profit sharing. If they want their stock to remain high then work with GM not bleed them dry.

The UAW is treating GM more like an Investor now. How long will this last I am not sure but for now both sides are winning.

Edited August 16, 2016 by hyperv6

[El Kabong]

I was unaware of any American cities that had a population of 37 million people.

Beyond that I'm largely onboard. Unifor (the successor to the CAW) is in no position to dictate to GM. The fact they seemingly continue to do so is either breathtakingly naive or cynical.

Ontario is essentially bankrupt. They have voted in successive governments who have used social-progressive nonsense babble to try and cow the electorate into ignoring their (likely criminal) ineptitude in running a province. But they keep voting them in so it's all on them. As an Albertan I just watch them flounder from afar and count the days until our current rebound romance with the socialists ends.

[FordCosworth]

 

Also add in the value of the dollar and other things going on. The social Canadian government has not help draw in many companies in either.

The dollar is actually at an acceptable range for exports. By the same token, socialized programs are funded by the taxpayer and thus good news for an employer unwilling to spend too much on benefits.

The major drawback government-wise is a Provincial issue: the exorbitant cost of electricity.

 

 

 

 

July numbers should be out shortly - Canada's trade deficit widened in June to a record $3.6 billion. 

 

Imports from the United States, our biggest trading partner, were up 1.5 per cent to $29.8 billion and exports were down 1.2 per cent to $31.6 billion. As a result, Canada's trade surplus with the United States narrowed from $2.6 billion in May to $1.8 billion in June.

 

For the April-June quarter, Canada's trade deficit with the world widened from $6.4 billion in the first quarter of 2016 to a record $10.7 billion.

 

So much for our dollar being at an acceptable range for exports.

Edited August 16, 2016 by FordCosworth

[El Kabong]

You're correct, of course. Back when our manufacturing sector wasn't crippled by electricity rates and the UAW getting the plot the current positioning of the Canadian dollar would have sufficed.

Keep your eyes on the road, now

[hyperv6]

I was unaware of any American cities that had a population of 37 million people.

Beyond that I'm largely onboard. Unifor (the successor to the CAW) is in no position to dictate to GM. The fact they seemingly continue to do so is either breathtakingly naive or cynical.

Ontario is essentially bankrupt. They have voted in successive governments who have used social-progressive nonsense babble to try and cow the electorate into ignoring their (likely criminal) ineptitude in running a province. But they keep voting them in so it's all on them. As an Albertan I just watch them flounder from afar and count the days until our current rebound romance with the socialists ends.

 

Leave it as California but you get my point. Nearly as many just in the San Diego, LA and Santa Barbra as all of Canada. Not counting the illegals as they go uncounted. 

[El Kabong]

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

[FordCosworth]

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

 

 

Fly over... like everything between BC and Ontario

 

[El Kabong]

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

 

 

Fly over... like everything between BC and Ontario

 

Anything seems like that when you're texting and driving

[oldshurst442]

I was unaware of any American cities that had a population of 37 million people.

Beyond that I'm largely onboard. Unifor (the successor to the CAW) is in no position to dictate to GM. The fact they seemingly continue to do so is either breathtakingly naive or cynical.

Ontario is essentially bankrupt. They have voted in successive governments who have used social-progressive nonsense babble to try and cow the electorate into ignoring their (likely criminal) ineptitude in running a province. But they keep voting them in so it's all on them. As an Albertan I just watch them flounder from afar and count the days until our current rebound romance with the socialists ends.

Arent you originally from the Maritimes?

 

No trolling here...

Just an honest to goodness question from one Hoser to another.

[El Kabong]

Newfoundland, Ontario, Alberta... steady drift west.

[FordCosworth]

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

 

 

Fly over... like everything between BC and Ontario

 

Anything seems like that when you're texting and driving

Looks like you missed where I said fly over.

And nope not texting while driving. I'm typing while I take 5 from a fibre install proposal I'm working on.

[oldshurst442]

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

Well, let us be honest El K about what Hyper said.....

 

There are several 'Canadas' in the US in terms of populations and regions....

There is the New York area in which just in NYC there is approx 50% of Canada's population. And its a mighty mighty economy.

That includes Massachusetts and its city Boston  as Boston right now has financial ties with NYC and Montreal is given a chance to join them in these relationships...

 

There is the Houston/Dallas area where Texas and its surroundings control a big part of the USA's economy. And Houston is a very fast growing city on par with Toronto's growth. I think as of now, percentage wise, Houston is growing faster than Toronto is..

 

There is California...and correct me if Im wrong, California can be divided into 2 'Canadas'....

SoCal and NoCal....

Northern California could include the Seattle region....

I dont know if Vancouver has any financial ties to Seattle as the Greater Toronto region has with Michigan and NY as Montreal does with New England and NY as well...

And California is the biggest economy in the US I think.

 

Then there is the South with and without Texas.

 

Illinois with Michigan and the surrounding areas.

 

Canada.....really only has Upper and Lower Canada.

That is where most of the population is and always was and that is where the heart of Canada's  economy is and always was.

From Montreal to Toronto.

In the past 'twas Montreal, now it is Toronto.

But even in 2016, 6-8 million lives in the GTA region and 4-5 million lives in the Montreal region.

That is slightly less than 45% of Canada's population....

 

The oil money from Alberta has been spent like drunkards on a night on the town blowing it on booze and hookers....

Just as fast as that region grew from the Easterners of the Maritime Provinces and Quebec and Ontario, that region is deflating...

We all used Alberta's oil money like cheap hookers. Love them, sleep with them and in the morning we phoque off to go back home to our wives...

 

Ontario will be fine, even without Oshawa.

Ontario is NOT a 1 trick pony.

 

Hey....Quebec lost a GM plant, a Hyundai plant, a stock exchange, multiple headquarters, plenty of Anglos and we are doing fine...

"Doing fine" is a relative term, but this aint about Quebec, its about Ontario....all that Quebec lost, Ontario was the one that gained...and Im sure if Oshawa closes down, all that that Ontario gained from Quebec aint going nowhere....

 

PS: Alberta with all that oil money, as of 2016, well, Quebec is doing better....

OUCH!

 

 

A better comparison, for sure. Also in terms of how that population relates to the rest of the US: California, like Canada, may as well be Mars as far as flyover country is concerned

 

 

Fly over... like everything between BC and Ontario

 

 

Fly over everything between BC and Ontario?

What, like in a Quebec built Canadair (Bombardier) CL 415...

 

TOO SOON?

 

 

Newfoundland, Ontario, Alberta... steady drift west.

 

How many Newfies does it take to (fill in the blank)?

Edited August 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

I dunno.

Tell me, wings.

[oldshurst442]

I dunno.

Tell me, wings.

You cant take a joke?

 

You are a sour puss all of a sudden?

 

Lets see...you troll like you are Wings and you are a sour puss like him too...

Id change my description for me because I certainly dont behave like you and him...

 

You see 'Bong,

I am my own unique poster....

I dont troll any car brands and their fans.....you do that.

 

I dont shill for any car brands, you and Wings do that...

 

I am like a Cyndi Lauper video....

I am a poster with a variety of colour to my personality and I like to have fun....

 

Now, 'Bong....

When you try to influence your truth about something, I will always have a different reality from yours....

Problem is, you talk a good talk, but as with Wings, your talk has very blatant double talk that I pick up on....

And THAT is where you and I clash....

Not only you, but many posters that I have come across over the years....

And guess what?

I come out on top every single time...

 

Because I am genuine.

No hidden agendas with me.

And even though I am wrong sometimes, I ACCEPT to be corrected, I learn and move on...

 

YOU....YOU DONT move on, you keep on bashing away at that hidden agenda of yours, much like Wings....

Oh well.

 

The Goonies R good enough for me!

 

PS: there are some WWF wrestling undertones in both of these videos...

 

Care to tell me which of these guys had problems with the law, spousal abuse, drug abuse?

'Cause I only see them for what they are...

ENTERTAINMENT...

 

You on the other hand, will hang anybody for any wrong doing yet will blatantly do the same bloody wrong doing yourself....

Nobody likes a TV Evangelist 'Bong...

NOBODY!

Edited August 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Whatever wings

[oldshurst442]

Whatever wings

Yeah.....whatever.

Just keep in mind that I was the one to paint you as Wings FIRST waaaaay before you called me Wings...which was today...

 

Personally, Id rather be called Cyndi Lauper than WIngs.

 

PS: the ONLY thing I have in common with Wings is that we are both Greek...

 

OPA!

[El Kabong]

All you've done is go on epic, rambling rants, make fun of regions of Canada (and their citizens) that you've probably never seen, and go off on weird tangents.

In other words... you're totally wings.

Now seriously-just stop. You look silly

Edited August 17, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

All you've done is go on epic, rambling rants, make fun of regions of Canada (and their citizens) that you've probably never seen, and go off on weird tangents.

In other words... you're totally wings.

Now seriously-just stop. You look silly

 

I did not make fun of regions of Canada...

 

YOU missed it that I totally made fun of you and your so called new citizenship of being an Albertan....yet I had to ask you where you REALLY come from....

You are not an Albertan slowly moving west....

You are an Easterner Newfoundlander.

You will always be a Newfie and it dont matter if you head soooooo west you end up in the east in the home of the Rising Sun, Japan...

 

QUEBEC BUILT Canadair CL415 is a dig to you...not to Alberta.

You tried to belittle Quebec a while back in this thread where you graced your presence in Oshawa because GM closed down its plant in Quebec....

Tis YOU that takes jabs...

Tis ME that uppercuts you square in the jaw...KNOCK OUT!!!!

 

You are right...

The most East Ive gone to is Quebec City and the most West is Niagara Falls and Toronto in this beautiful country of ours.

 

Yet I speak BOTH OFFICIAL LANGUAGES of our country and my dad served her during WW2 and defended her freedom as a soldier...

Yes, that wasnt me serving my country, yet every 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, I shed a tear for EVERY fallen Canadian soldier!

 

I NEVER DISRESPECT ANY OF OUR ELECTED  leaders like you have....

How was it you spelled our Prime Minister's name a couple of posts back?

 

You say you are a conservative...

yet as of now......LIBERAL HELP you as a new Albertan are, will GLADLY take....

ONTARIO and QUEBEC are HELPING GREATLY ALBERTA in her time in need....

Both with the fires and with the economics as ONTARIO and QUEBEC are the economic powers as of now as oil money is a non factor!

Both LIBERAL provinces that spend more than they make...

Yet with all that conservative Albertan oil money, tis the disgusting Liberal provinces that are getting Canada out of this oil money mess...

 

POLITICS.....Mr. Harper did good when he had to do it that way...but now, tis a different ball game....

 

Another dig in where QUEBEC built Canadair CL415s come in!

 

I sure hope to God that Ontario is not a bankrupt province like you put it because in 2016...Canada is relying so much on Ontario to get us through.....

And yeah......transfer payments are flowing from East to West again instead of the other short lived way around....

And yeah......Quebec....

It dont matter how you feel Bombardier is run and how much money the Liberals give Bombardier, (even Quebecois got a slap in the face with the latest one) Quebe based Bombardier helps in one way or other to help pay Canada's bills...

Quebec does help a tiny wee bit....

Bankrupt Ontario and Quebec are not...

Alberta I am not so sure of...

 

With the exception of British Columbia....because even BC is giving Alberta monies....

BC flew in some Martin Mars planes to help out...

 

'Bong, like I said, you talk a good talk.

Lots of tough talk...

Too bad its double talk most of the time...

 

Instead of flexing non sense and trying to discredit me...with ONLY WORDS I MIGHT SAY...stop the double talk!

 

 

OH....Ive been to Greece countless of times....

Have you?

Because you are trying to make it seem like I dont go out much....

 

The irony of a Newfie (or Albertan) calling out a Montrealer (a REAL cosmopolitan city second only to NYC)....a Greek descendant of all things who has seen Europe....

Edited August 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[daves87rs]

Times have changes and Unions can no longer dictate what they want. The CAW needs to learn what most of the UAW locals have learned. 

Today GM has more plants and capacity than they need. The locals that are thriving have learned to work with GM and make a plant profitable and competitive. They make deals that are beneficial to both sides. Places like Lordstown were a steaming heap of non competitiveness. GM was on the way to closing them down. But the local there has learned to work with the new GM and they have been rewarded with good product and much in overtime. GM is making money and the UAW workers are making money. 

We see the same in Kansas and most Michigan plants. So far this is working well with balance. 

The CAW at Oshawa has been hostile and demanding and that does not play anymore. GM has options and choices that do not have to include Mexico anymore. 

Before GM had few options with the unions and were forced into many bad deals and I see them protecting themselves from this. 

 

Some folks need to still get it thought their heads that it takes a good relationship on both sides to make this work. MFG are not endless pits of money that can be abused or we will end up like 2008 but eve much faster. 

The truth is companies are here to make money and produce income to share holders. Their primary purpose is not just to provide jobs. Harsh sounding but that is how life is. As in nature a salmon must die to support a Bear. But in this case things can be worked out to where very one benefits if both sides are smart. 

As it is Oshawa got a big head as they had good ratings in quality and have a large facility but that matters little in today's markets where pretty much any plant can match their quality and smaller plants can beat their efficiency. 

 

 

While plenty of truth there bud, have to point out one thing: Companies are not just there to produce income for shareholders. Only companies that are on Wall Street have to. And companies don't always need shareholders.....like say Costco, for example......

[ccap41]

Times have changes and Unions can no longer dictate what they want. The CAW needs to learn what most of the UAW locals have learned. 

Today GM has more plants and capacity than they need. The locals that are thriving have learned to work with GM and make a plant profitable and competitive. They make deals that are beneficial to both sides. Places like Lordstown were a steaming heap of non competitiveness. GM was on the way to closing them down. But the local there has learned to work with the new GM and they have been rewarded with good product and much in overtime. GM is making money and the UAW workers are making money. 

We see the same in Kansas and most Michigan plants. So far this is working well with balance. 

The CAW at Oshawa has been hostile and demanding and that does not play anymore. GM has options and choices that do not have to include Mexico anymore. 

Before GM had few options with the unions and were forced into many bad deals and I see them protecting themselves from this. 

 

Some folks need to still get it thought their heads that it takes a good relationship on both sides to make this work. MFG are not endless pits of money that can be abused or we will end up like 2008 but eve much faster. 

The truth is companies are here to make money and produce income to share holders. Their primary purpose is not just to provide jobs. Harsh sounding but that is how life is. As in nature a salmon must die to support a Bear. But in this case things can be worked out to where very one benefits if both sides are smart. 

As it is Oshawa got a big head as they had good ratings in quality and have a large facility but that matters little in today's markets where pretty much any plant can match their quality and smaller plants can beat their efficiency.

 

 

While plenty of truth there bud, have to point out one thing: Companies are not just there to produce income for shareholders. Only companies that are on Wall Street have to. And companies don't always need shareholders.....like say Costco, for example......

Costco is publically traded just like GM and Ford stock. If they didn't need shareholders why do they have shares that anybody can own? They had to have been put out there because they needed funds at some point.