NG Aurora

[KillFort]

Although GM killed Oldsmobile, wasn't there rumors of Olds fighting for a NG Aurora on Sigma right before its death?

Just wondering if anyone has ever seen sketches of design proposals or mockups of where Oldsmobile was going before they got axed. I'm sure at least some stuff still exist somewhere.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

If there is such a thing, I'd like to see it.

[DetroitNut90]

According to Wikipedia, Oldsmobile did ask Cadillac if the Aurora could be placed on the then-developing Sigma platform. Cadillac refused. It seemed that after that, GM swung the axe down on Olds.

I thought that any division would have wanted to help Olds out. Guess not.

[ToniCipriani]

Can't put too much trust in Wikipedia content, after all anyone can edit it, and at times the words can be confusing.

There's no hard evidence that Cadillac "refused" Olds' request.

[ocnblu]

There are plenty of stories of infighting between the divisions of GM. The relatively few I've read about are fascinating.

[avant1963]

Let's remember, or bring those that did not know up to speed, that the 2nd gen Aurora as we know was the "entry Luxury" car for Olds, NOT the REAL 2nd gen car. The REAL 2nd gen car was dropped and the "entry Luxury" car was renamed Aurora when Olds realized they were a goner.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Walt I remember that footage.. I remember when I sent those videos out.. I am glad to see you still have it and use it to make a point. As for that second generation Aurora, the story is..

A Oldsmobile engineer asked GM not Cadillac to use Sigma because they felt they had a case because Oldsmobile was great with rear drive cars. Some GM excutive said no, and soon after that Oldsmobile was gone. The 2nd generation Aurora was supposed to be called Anthem and it was going to replace 88 and 98 and LSS. That is why the 2nd generation Aurora looks like a redesigned 88. GM was either tight on money or something and they went back and modified Anthem to become Aurora. It seems the 2nd generation Aurora fairs better than the 1st generation in terms of relability and quality. Most people who own them keep them.

Edited May 18, 2006 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Drew Dowdell]

So what I think we need now is someone to chop a CTS into an Olds version.

[Flybrian]

So what I think we need now is someone to chop a CTS into an Olds version.

Or at least an STS. A CTS-based Aurora would be a 3-Series competitor.

[VenSeattle]

Walt I remember that footage.. I remember when I sent those videos out.. I am glad to see you still have it and use it to make a point. As for that second generation Aurora, the story is..

A Oldsmobile engineer asked GM not Cadillac to use Sigma because they felt they had a case because Oldsmobile was great with rear drive cars. Some GM excutive said no, and soon after that. Oldsmobile was gone. The 2nd generation Aurora was supposed to be called Anthem and it was going to replace 88 and 98 and LSS. That is why the 2nd generation Aurora looks like a redesigned 88.  GM was either tight on money or something and they went back and modified Anthem to become Aurora. It seems the 2nd generation Aurora fairs better than the 1st generation in terms of relability and quality. Most people who own them keep them.

You forgot one point. The whole reason why Oldsmobile had to go to GM and ask about Sigma was because the original 2nd gen MY2000 Oldsmobile Aurora was to be developed along with the MY2000 Buick Riviera... just like the original program for the 1995 Riviera/1995 Aurora. Buick decided to drop the slow selling Riviera instead of going through with the joint program, leaving Oldsmobile without a program to develop the planned 2nd Gen Aurora.

Some information implies that part of the internal struggle had to do with Oldsmobile refusing to share the 4.0 V8 with Buick. Oldsmobile wouldn't give in so Buick killed the Riviera, thus killing the 2nd Gen Aurora, thus causing the Anthem/Antares sedan to become an impromptu Aurora. Oldsmobile had already received Billions of dollars in assistance and I don't think any one internally was willing to sacrifice on its behalf.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ So it's all Buick's fault due to a spat over a goddam engine?

And GM allowed it to happen?

GM should put strict limits on this kind of crap.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Thanks for posting stills of that video! I still have the videos (haven't watched them in a while though), but I've always wanted to see a still of that pre-Anthem/Aurora-thanks Avant1963!

[Sixty8panther]

Depressing. Anyone read the Olds article in this month's MT Classic?

[GMTruckGuy74]

I would love if someone published a book all about Oldsmobile concepts, mock-ups, drawings and the like. It would be really great to see what Oldsmobile was working on for this decade before they were told they were being dropped. I'm sure there had to be NG Alero, Bravada, Intrigue, Aurora, and other designs in the works. I'd definitely buy this book.

For those with info and pics, please post more. I am totally into this thread and can't wait to find out more.

[sciguy_0504]

Could you get any better than the last-gen Aurora? Maybe a better interior but the exterior of that car was all pleasure.

[cavalier36]

the second generation Aurora was meant to replace the eighty eight and LSS models. a new Aurora would probably have been built on the RWD sigma platform. I would have liked to seen what a new Intrigue, and a new Alero on epsilion would have looked like.. the Bravada and Silhouette would have still been the same. and the Buick Rainier and Saturn Relay probably wouldnt have existed.. I still belive the reason why Oldsmobile is no longer with us is because when they axed the 88/98/LSS they lost all those customers to Buick, the Chevy Impala and perhaps to Mercury..

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ No, the real reason is that Buick cried to mommy over a V-8.

[VenSeattle]

^ No, the real reason is that Buick cried to mommy over a V-8.

No. Not really. It was not Buick's responsibility to make sure Oldsmobile could afford a 2nd Gen Aurora. Everything is contingent. Why should Buick proceed with a program and burn money on a non-profitable vehicle just for the sake of another division? Even with the cancellation of the original 2nd Gen Aurora, Oldsmobile was bleeding money. So Oldsmobile really didn't have the money for the program... Let alone completing the development on its own. So in all actuality, Buick's Riviera program wouldn't have saved them. The 2nd Gen Aurora may have been built, but the division's fate was made. My personal regret is over the loss of the Riviera.

From my understanding, Oldsmobile chose to burden itself with the cost for the 'development' and the 'exclusiveness' of the Northstar derived 4.0V8 & Shortstar 3.5lV6. Sharing the development costs for both of those engines with another division (like Buick) could have saved Oldsmobile. Those engineering costs hurt Oldsmobile more than anything (along with a shrinking customer base). From many perspectives, Oldsmobile dug its own grave.

[91z4me]

No. Not really. It was not Buick's responsibility to make sure Oldsmobile could afford a 2nd Gen Aurora. Everything is contingent. Why should Buick proceed with a program and burn money on a non-profitable vehicle just for the sake of another division? Even with the cancellation of the original 2nd Gen Aurora, Oldsmobile was bleeding money. So Oldsmobile really didn't have the money for the program... Let alone completing the development on its own. So in all actuality, Buick's Riviera program wouldn't have saved them. The 2nd Gen Aurora may have been built, but the division's fate was made. My personal regret is over the loss of the Riviera.

From my understanding, Oldsmobile chose to burden itself with the cost for the 'development' and the 'exclusiveness' of the Northstar derived 4.0V8 & Shortstar 3.5lV6. Sharing the development costs for both of those engines with another division (like Buick) could have saved Oldsmobile. Those engineering costs hurt Oldsmobile more than anything (along with a shrinking customer base). From many perspectives, Oldsmobile dug its own grave.

Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99. Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also. Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it. Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness. If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

[Flybrian]

Oldsmobile would've turned GM around. That's my belief and I stick to it. Unlike Saturn, it had poise, presence, class, and the history of being at the pinnicle of automotive technology.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99.  Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also.  Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it.  Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness.  If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

I don't blame Pontiac for sticking with the L67, as I would choose it over the 3.7 also. While it may be down 10hp, it would destroy it in torque #s, and is so easy to mod, though that probably isn't important to most people.

[evok]

Oldsmobile would've turned GM around. That's my belief and I stick to it. Unlike Saturn, it had poise, presence, class, and the history of being at the pinnicle of automotive technology.

There is one problem that you ignore in GM's decision to axe Oldsmobile.

Unlike Saturn, Oldsmobile's image still sucked in the market after $2 billion of investment over 10 years. Saturn does not have to overcome being "Your father's OLDsmobile".

The brand became irrelevant just like Buick and Pontiac are becoming today.

[evok]

Just for clarification:

There was never a true replacement for the 1st generation Aurora.

There never was a true replacement for the G body Riveria.

The GMX-160 Oldsmobile was to be the lead vehicle out of the P-O-B H body triplets, prior to it becoming the replacement for the Aurora and the addition of the NSV8 to the program.

Oldsmobile was not planned to get a version of sigma.

There were tentative plans for Buick to get a version of sigma prior to the A&S Cadillac rebuilt of the GMX320 Catera. But that program was still born early on.

Just prior to the cancellation of Olds, there was only 1 program on the books with any chance of reaching production.

That was the GMT-360 Bravada.

3 other programs were dotted for Olds but were very early in the development.

They were:

GMX-369 Intrigum (Profile Concept off Eps wide)

GMT-235 Minivan

GMT-259 Joaquim/GMT-31? Theta Crossover

Edited May 17, 2006 by evok

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Oldsmobile Joaquim, huh? That's the first time I'd ever heard about it-I'm assuming the minivan was the circa-2005 Silhouette before Olds got pulled and CSV's came to play, but was Joaquim a pre-Recon? I remember Recon was slated for the Theta architecture, but wow, that's interesting! And there was also an early-development GMX382 Alero-am I correct there too? Intrigum was supposed to be essentially an Olds version of the Malibu Maxx if I remember correctly as well.

[evok]

Yes there also was a very early GMX-382 Alero.

These programs were never really hard timed as far as I remember. Meaning, there were codes but no serious work ever went into bringing these programs to production prior to the Olds announcememnt.

The Olds announcement was in Nov./Dec. 2000.

Edited May 17, 2006 by evok

[Guest YellowJacket894]

No. Not really. It was not Buick's responsibility to make sure Oldsmobile could afford a 2nd Gen Aurora. Everything is contingent. Why should Buick proceed with a program and burn money on a non-profitable vehicle just for the sake of another division? Even with the cancellation of the original 2nd Gen Aurora, Oldsmobile was bleeding money. So Oldsmobile really didn't have the money for the program... Let alone completing the development on its own. So in all actuality, Buick's Riviera program wouldn't have saved them. The 2nd Gen Aurora may have been built, but the division's fate was made. My personal regret is over the loss of the Riviera.

From my understanding, Oldsmobile chose to burden itself with the cost for the 'development' and the 'exclusiveness' of the Northstar derived 4.0V8 & Shortstar 3.5lV6. Sharing the development costs for both of those engines with another division (like Buick) could have saved Oldsmobile. Those engineering costs hurt Oldsmobile more than anything (along with a shrinking customer base). From many perspectives, Oldsmobile dug its own grave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I guess that is one way to look at Oldsmobile's demise...

Anyhow, one thing that makes me stick around in this thread is seeing some renderings (besides that video still shot). Is it at all possible?

[VenSeattle]

Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99.  Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also.  Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it.  Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness.  If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

Not to disagree with you... but I've read several times that Buick wanted the 4.0l V8 and Oldsmobile refused to share it with anyone.

As for the 3.5l Shortstar, I do remember reading that the development and cost to build were way over budget. So, perhaps Buick and Pontiac did decline the 3.5l. However, Oldsmobile still went through with the development and production of the engine. Why? Don't know. From what I've read GM's current High-Feature engine family is more flexible and less expensive to build than the Northstar derivatives.

Evok! THANK YOU for that info! There are still tons of holes in the story. Every bit helps!

I do have a question though, If there wasn't a real replacement for the Gen-1 Aurora, then was the Gen-1 Aurora's model life originally 2-3 years longer? It seems odd that enough time lapsed to the point of needing to skip a model year for the rebadged 88 replacement(Gen-2 Aurora).

[evok]

Not to disagree with you... but I've read several times that Buick wanted the 4.0l V8 and Oldsmobile refused to share it with anyone.

I do not remember the specifics but I do not think that was the case in the late 1990's. By that time the divisions had no power. Get The O.C. into this discussion, he was a lot closer to that program than I was. He might remember the details.

I do have a question though, If there wasn't a real replacement for the Gen-1 Aurora, then was the Gen-1 Aurora's model life originally 2-3 years longer? It seems odd that enough time lapsed to the point of needing to skip a model year for the rebadged 88 replacement(Gen-2 Aurora).

Again, memory fails me on the details, but the Gen 1 Aurora died earlier than planned. There was an decision/annoucement back in 1998 or 1999 time frame where the H-C-G bodies would be move back into Orion. At that same time Buick City was going to be closed when the Lasabre was replaced.

I think I mentioned earlier that the GMX160 was to be the lead program and be release in 1998 or 1999. Well that was puched back 2 MYs. I believe the Aurora II was an early 2001 introduction. So with Buick City closing (Ceasing 88s), and Aurora delayed and the 88's replacement shifted to Orion, there was a MY missing.

The story is not all black and white. Just like Jim Taylor explained on the lack of express up windows in the 900 Escalade, there is a story for everything.

[The O.C.]

Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99.  Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also.  Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it.  Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness.  If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

We WANTED the NorthStar 4.0L as an option in the original 1995 Riviera and were told by GM to go "pound sand" in so many words.

I never remember any discussions with Oldsmobile on the 3.5L V6 or any variations of that engine. Although we wanted the V8 (but didn't get it) we were set upon the 3800 (SC and non-SC) as our V6 options. Ultimately, we ended up with the SC 3800 as the top engine option.

Riviera was killed in the marketplace and one thing that held us back was not having the V8 option, even though the SC was pretty strong running back then.

(We got lots of demerits for the floaty suspension....even in SC cars.....but that was our fault for not tightening it up.)

The Mark VIII had the 32-valve V8, the Eldorado had the 4.6L NS, and of course the Olds EXCLUSIVELY had the 4.0L in its first generation.

A V8 would have given Riviera a leg up against the multi-valve/multi-cam V6 import coupes.

[The O.C.]

Not to be off-topic, but one more interesting 1995 Riviera tidbit...

I couldn't make this up.....

When we were deciding upon options, colors, trims, etc., Buick management INSISTED on having WHITEWALL tires available on this new, curvy, up-to-date Riviera!!!!!!!

Why? Their answer....."we sold a huge percentage of previous-generation Rivieras with whitewall tires."

These guys were SO dense, they didn't see how AWFUL whitewall tires would have clashed with the much-more modern 1995 Riviera design.....and that this car had the potential to expand it's desirability to a new group of consumers that wouldn't have liked the old Riviera.

I will boast proudly on here that it was ME that took the fight up the ladder and got the whitewall tire option KILLED.

[BigPontiac]

Not to be off-topic, but one more interesting 1995 Riviera tidbit...

I couldn't make this up.....

When we were deciding upon options, colors, trims, etc., Buick management INSISTED on having WHITEWALL tires available on this new, curvy, up-to-date Riviera!!!!!!!

Why?  Their answer....."we sold a huge percentage of previous-generation Rivieras with whitewall tires."

These guys were SO dense, they didn't see how AWFUL whitewall tires would have clashed with the much-more modern 1995 Riviera design.....and that this car had the potential to expand it's desirability to a new group of consumers that wouldn't have liked the old Riviera.

I will boast proudly on here that it was ME that took the fight up the ladder and got the whitewall tire option KILLED.

My friend's dad had one of those super charged Riv's...he LOVED that car! Ran it into the ground...now he drives and Acura RL (his 2nd).

The whitewalls remind me of my mom's old '88 Buick Electra Limited with whitewalls and wire wheel covers. Man did those Goodyear Vectors howl around corners! But even my mom dumped whitewalls with her '93 Buick LeSabre with the Grand Touring suspension.

[!!!TED!!!]

GMX-369 Intrigum (Profile Concept off Eps wide)

GMT-235 Minivan

GMT-259 Joaquim/GMT-31? Theta Crossover

It was GMT317 I believe.

And the Intrigum, wouldnt that be GMX396 since:

GMX390 - Pontiac Bannersport

GMX391 - Buick Signia

GMX393 - Chevrolet Impala

[Delta Force79]

I never knew the second Gen Aurora was originally a replacment for the 88, LSS....very interesting....and BTW my 1995 Riviera is whitewall free

[evok]

It was GMT317 I believe.

And the Intrigum, wouldnt that be GMX396 since:

GMX390 - Pontiac Bannersport

GMX391 - Buick Signia

GMX393 - Chevrolet Impala

It was x-369.

I do not remember if the Olds theta ever had a code.

t-315,316 and 317 were all Saturns.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I know its far from popular, but why not resurrect the Pontiac Banner as a Dodge Magnum rival? Put it on Zeta, of course! Ditto Buick Signia for a more luxurious version, the latter styled right after the 1998 concept car, one of my favorites. I thought Recon had a code-GMT318 I want to say? 317 I think was an MPV based off the 2000 MUV concept car, riding a stretched VUE wheelbase, and one of those was a smaller, Honda Ridgeline-type pickup (ah...what GM lost...another missed opportunity in which they could've been first to innovate something-the FWD/AWD car-based crossover pickup)

[Croc]

The story is not all black and white.  Just like Jim Taylor explained on the lack of express up windows in the 900 Escalade, there is a story for everything.

Where is this? I must have missed it...

[evok]

Such is the case with all of the product details that Cadillac realizes are needed, but absent. "It isn't generally something that is missed," Taylor said. "There is usually a story around it." That means that there is some production capacity, engineering commonality or corporate intrigue sort of obstacle that prevented Cadillac from executing on that particular detail.

Ck out the Cadillac thread in GM News.

[evok]

In the case above, I have been told that Chevrolet T900s drove a lot of decision that adversly effected Cadillac on the program. That is the long story.