Cadillac News: Cadillac Readies for European Push, Talks About What the Future Holds

[William Maley]

Earlier this month, Cadillac revealed the CT6 and XT5 in Berlin ahead of their official European launch in September. At the present moment, the brand will be selling the vehicles through 45 dealers in 12 countries. Speaking with Autocar, Cadillac Europe’s head of product management Barnabas Vincze says they plan on doubling that by 2020 as part of a plan to achieve “organic growth” rather than going after volume. This shows in the sales goal as Cadillac wants to boost sales from about 550 vehicles last year to around 900-1000.

 

For the time being, the CT6 and XT5 will be equipped only with gas engines. Down the road, Vincze says “all types of different powertrains were on the table as options” in the future, and the brand was “looking at them all now. For now, we bring high-performance petrols to market.”

 

Also, Cadillac will be adding more crossovers to their European lineup. These include a model sitting between the XT5 and Escalade, and two small crossovers.

 

“Crossovers will be key to us,” said Vincze.

 

Source: Autocar

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[Drew Dowdell]

Johan, will you be re-doing the Cadillac dealerships in Europe so they aren't being operated out of the back of an old Esso station or in some dark corner of an Opel dealer?

[G. David Felt]

This should be interesting.

 

BIG QUESTION

 

Are these stand alone Cadillac dealerships or are they selling them out of an Opel store in the back alley?

 

Biggest failure of the US companies is trying to sell the way they do in the US in Europe. Does not work. Gotta sell focused on the single brand for best results.

[smk4565]

Tall mountain to climb here.  I think they'd do well by offering a 10 year warranty on Cadillacs in Europe.  In addition to dealerships they need to give people a reason to look at their cars.  It helped Hyundai and Kia here, although I'd go a step farther and do 10 year bumper to bumper warranty for Cadillac Europe.  On 1,000 or 2,000 cars a year it isn't going to cost much anyway.  

 

Two crossovers below the $39,000 XT5.  I hope all those GLA bashers are ready for a $30k Cadillac SUV with a 1.6 liter engine.

[Drew Dowdell]

The GLA doesn't set the bar very high for others to exceed it. 

[smk4565]

Cadillac priced the XT5 like the GLC, so if there are 2 products below XT5, looks like Cadillac will have a GLA competitor and sub-GLA competitor.  The GLA may not be a very high bar, but I doubt Cadillac will do any better with a Trax based crossover or Cruze based crossover which I'd imagine will be their XT1 and XT3 respectively.    The CLA and GLA are weak by Mercedes standards, but the worst Mercedes is still better than most of what anyone else does.

[balthazar]

We've gone over this before.

Mercedes came to this country with NO reasons for people to look at their cars, perhaps the worst dealership experiences in the history of autodom, and it took decades upon decades to achieve any success here. Cadillac actually has a better chance since their products are far more competitive than MB's were then. Let's wait & see how it plays out.

 

I can allow ONE CUV under the XT5 (it's ATPs are going to be comfortably over the MSRP), but NOT TWO!

[regfootball]

i think they should move to a hybrid solution for Europe.  It's fine to put a diesel in something but I think cutting edge hybrids would be the way to gain a niche.

 

The other thing i would not have them do it proclaim to go toe to toe with Mercedes etc.  To have a niche and build stability for a few years is the way to go.  

[smk4565]

If the XT5 was based on the CTS and cost $49,000 base, sort of like what a BMW X5 is, then they could get 2 crossovers under XT5 easily.  With the XT5 priced starting in the high 30s, hard to get 2 vehicles below that without one of those being $29-31k.  I figure Cadillac will roll out a Lincoln MKC/Lexus NX/Acura RDX fighter that is around $35k, which makes sense, but to go below that you have to get down to $30k.

 

As far as Mercedes goes, they had the 300SL Gullwing which in the 50s was one of the fastest cars in the world, in the 60s they had the 600 Grosser, the best 4 door car in the world at the time, and the most expensive.  So they had built up some name when they got here, and the S-class and SL roadster of the late 60s and 70s were good cars.  By the 80s they had the Americans worried and they passed them by in the 90s, and left them in the dust in the 2000s.

 

No way Cadillac can overtake any of the German 3 in sales in Europe, in 20-30 years.  They could sell CTS-Vs for the price of a Golf diesel in Germany and not outsell BMW.

[balthazar]

Tho MB -as usual- cranked out a lot of Gullwings, they had very middling finish, and they couldn't outrun the new Chrysler 300.

SL wasn't competitive with cheap american brands in quality, never mind the luxury brands. And just when they were getting some publicity mileage out of the Gullwing, it was dropped. Maybe if they hadn't cost-cut and kept the alloy body on the SL instead of the heavy steel one, they could've kept it going. It started out at $11K in '54...

 

The grosser was not a consumer vehicle, it was a limousine. They had no impact here, esp when massively overshadowed by the uncompetitive, stripped-down, 85-MPH tin can mainstream models MB was pushing. Those were the cars consumers knew.

 

It took MB what; 40 continuous years to surpass the American 3 in sales?  Let's see what Cadillac does with truly competitive product this time.

[smk4565]

Cadillac's "competitive product" can't catch the German 3 here in the USA, no chance can they catch them in German car loyal Europe.

Cadillac in Europe is like Alfa Romeo in the USA. It is a tall mountain to climb. I think the 10 year warranty idea could help them get some people to take a chance on them in Europe. I'm sure they will undercut Audi in price too.

Think of this too, Alfa Romeo has a sedan faster around the Nurburgring than a CTS-V, that competes with ATS-V and M3. And sales of the Alfa Quadfiglio or whatever it is called will be under 500 a month while the 3-series sells 10,000.

[FordCosworth]

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

[G. David Felt]

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

Clearly they are German lovers extreme like SMK as the whole write up is very negative and they compare the XT5 to auto's that it does not really compete with. Also comparing the top of the line auto to mid level auto's also just reaks of a writer who is lazy and again biased to an extreme for the german brands.

 

Many of their nit picking was laughable and what I consider to be inconsistent. Even people on their own forum disagree with the writer and his review.

 

Having driven an XT5, I have to actually disagree with many of the writers complaints.

 

I do have to wonder what condition this XT5 was delivered in if it was having slow shift issues and non responsive controls as I never experienced that.

 

Funny that Car and Driver has blasted about the complexity of going through the menu system on the Germans and how hard it is and going one step on the Cadillac system they said it would be better for a basic knob on the dash. How Toyota can you get to default to a knob on the dash to replace the electronic system when the germans have what is known to be one of the most confusing interfaces around.

 

Clearly a very biased review and lack neutral comparison to like products. Most of the writing is also personal taste in what was pointed out and there was never given any examples of real value about the vaunted German brands.

 

I wish more often than it really happens that the writers would remember to be neutral about the auto's, give facts of clear comparison and what it was to lead them to the feeling one thing was lower quality than another. An example would be the writer's comment about lower door interior panels seem to be part bin material harder plastic and never really states what the germans are, but having been in the GLC and the X3, I can tell you they use a hard plastic so why do they get a pass but not GM for the area that usually gets hit by dirty feet.

 

O'h that is right they are superior cause they are german. 

[regfootball]

Car and Driver is really trying hard to be car snobs and brand snobs again.  I think that era of humanity has passed.

 

Motor trend has more mainstream views on the car world.  If C/D just backed off their Mazda / Honda / Mercedes / BMW snobbery a bit i think it would help them.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

 

Honda and Driver doesn't like an American car?  Color me shocked.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac's limiting factor in Europe is no longer the product.

[balthazar]

Cadillac's "competitive product" can't catch the German 3 here in the USA, no chance can they catch them in German car loyal Europe.

Cadillacs are completely competitive in design, amenities, tech, mileage, & performance.

The Germans have been 'caught' in the major segments.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac's "competitive product" can't catch the German 3 here in the USA, no chance can they catch them in German car loyal Europe.

Cadillacs are completely competitive in design, amenities, tech, mileage, & performance.

The Germans have been 'caught' in the major segments.

^^This! What else would you expect him to say though?

[ccap41]

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

Well they did screw up by putting a n/a v6 in it to begin with... I don't understand why they did that. 

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

Well they did screw up by putting a n/a v6 in it to begin with... I don't understand why they did that. 

 

 

Because that's what the two best sellers in the segment have... the RX and the MDX.  The SQ5 and GLC may seems the same size as the XT5 on paper, but they feel much smaller inside. This is Cadillac going after RX and MDX drivers... and why not? Those are the two best sellers in the segment. 

[smk4565]

I don't think C & D is too far off on their assessment of the XT5.  The problem is they first say for similar money you can have a Jaguar F-Pace, Porsche Macan, X3 or GLC and those are all way better.   Later they do say the XT5 fairs well against the Lexus RX and Lincoln MKX.  Because that is where the XT5 is, it is a2nd tier luxury crossover, competing with the mid-size front drivers.  It isn't in the same league as the Rear drive crossovers.

 

Even consider the 310 hp V6 XT5 is slower than a 241 hp GLC, it has no chance against an F-Pace or Macan.   For 2nd tier luxury brand, the XT5 is probably pretty good, it just isn't ready to fight the big boys.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-cadillac-xt5-awd-test-review

 

Seems Car and Driver isn't very fond of the newly released XT5

Clearly they are German lovers extreme like SMK as the whole write up is very negative and they compare the XT5 to auto's that it does not really compete with. Also comparing the top of the line auto to mid level auto's also just reaks of a writer who is lazy and again biased to an extreme for the german brands.

 

Many of their nit picking was laughable and what I consider to be inconsistent. Even people on their own forum disagree with the writer and his review.

 

Having driven an XT5, I have to actually disagree with many of the writers complaints.

 

I do have to wonder what condition this XT5 was delivered in if it was having slow shift issues and non responsive controls as I never experienced that.

 

Funny that Car and Driver has blasted about the complexity of going through the menu system on the Germans and how hard it is and going one step on the Cadillac system they said it would be better for a basic knob on the dash. How Toyota can you get to default to a knob on the dash to replace the electronic system when the germans have what is known to be one of the most confusing interfaces around.

 

Clearly a very biased review and lack neutral comparison to like products. Most of the writing is also personal taste in what was pointed out and there was never given any examples of real value about the vaunted German brands.

 

I wish more often than it really happens that the writers would remember to be neutral about the auto's, give facts of clear comparison and what it was to lead them to the feeling one thing was lower quality than another. An example would be the writer's comment about lower door interior panels seem to be part bin material harder plastic and never really states what the germans are, but having been in the GLC and the X3, I can tell you they use a hard plastic so why do they get a pass but not GM for the area that usually gets hit by dirty feet.

 

O'h that is right they are superior cause they are german. 

 

 

That line right there....reminded me of something....

Then I saw the latest William Maley thread and and it hit me like a ton of bricks!

 

 

I think Im gonna hang my washing on the Siegfried line

 

Right after we sink the Bismark right to the bottom of the sea!

 

 

Then when alls is said and done,  Im gonna finally find my way to Tipperary!

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think C & D is too far off on their assessment of the XT5.  The problem is they first say for similar money you can have a Jaguar F-Pace, Porsche Macan, X3 or GLC and those are all way better.   Later they do say the XT5 fairs well against the Lexus RX and Lincoln MKX.  Because that is where the XT5 is, it is a2nd tier luxury crossover, competing with the mid-size front drivers.  It isn't in the same league as the Rear drive crossovers.

 

Even consider the 310 hp V6 XT5 is slower than a 241 hp GLC, it has no chance against an F-Pace or Macan.   For 2nd tier luxury brand, the XT5 is probably pretty good, it just isn't ready to fight the big boys.

All it has to do is match the old SRX in sales to beat them

[balthazar]

Wait : the Jag F-pace, Macan, X3 and GLC "can't compete" with the SRX or XT5; it easily outsells all of them.

 

Superiority proven! #thereisonlyonemetric

[smk4565]

For now, the Cadillac DTS outsold the 5-series at one point in time, until the market passed it by.  I think there will be more demand for the rear drive luxury crossover as time goes on.  The Lexus RX, MKX and XT5 will always have sales because Chevy/Buick, Ford and Toyota have big volumes of customers that will move up into those 3 vehicles, but that is where that customer will max out too.  The person that buys a Lexus RX will never spend more than $50k on a car, they'll buy an RX 4 times in a row.  And that sort of buyer is a commodity buyer, limited profit margin, unlike a Porsche Macan which attracts an enthusiast buyer and huge profit margin.  

 

XT5 won't do any damage in Europe, it doesn't have the driving dynamics those buyers are going to except.  I would also guess with an XT3 and Xt1 on the lot, the XT5 sales will drop.  Cadillac has one crossover, when most brands have 4.  

Edited July 16, 2016 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Consumers don't want RWD CUVs, they want AWD.

They don't care about 0-60, the quickest aren't anywhere near the top of the #thereisonlyonemetric chart.

 

The demand is moving downstream, that's why the X3 is sucking sales from the X4, X5 and X6, ALL down heavy double digits YTD. 
It's why a X3 and GLA (and to a lesser extent: Macan) exist, to pull from the mainstream. #thereisonlyonemetric

 

Luckily, XT5 driving dynamics have been widely praised, so again; it's very competitive in product to the German 3.

[surreal1272]

For now, the Cadillac DTS outsold the 5-series at one point in time, until the market passed it by.  I think there will be more demand for the rear drive luxury crossover as time goes on.  The Lexus RX, MKX and XT5 will always have sales because Chevy/Buick, Ford and Toyota have big volumes of customers that will move up into those 3 vehicles, but that is where that customer will max out too.  The person that buys a Lexus RX will never spend more than $50k on a car, they'll buy an RX 4 times in a row.  And that sort of buyer is a commodity buyer, limited profit margin, unlike a Porsche Macan which attracts an enthusiast buyer and huge profit margin.  

 

XT5 won't do any damage in Europe, it doesn't have the driving dynamics those buyers are going to except.  I would also guess with an XT3 and Xt1 on the lot, the XT5 sales will drop.  Cadillac has one crossover, when most brands have 4.

Sorry but I'm going to stop you right there. You clamor on and on when you can tout MBs sales superiority. Comparing the XT5 to the DTS is just beyond ignorant and just plain dumb. Also, acting like the Euro market is the barometer for performance shows your blindness right there. The XT5 is just as capable of success there as the FWD GLA does here. Bringing up dynamics shows that you know next to nothing about how most Cadillacs actually drive these days. While the snob crowd can knit pick silly things like how a damn dash board feels (who the hell is touching their dash while their driving anyway?), they cannot knock the driving dynamics of the alpha and omega platforms. It's just plain ignorant for you to even bring that up just because you think Europe is the be all, end all in determining how good a car is.

Good grief.

[smk4565]

But XT5 isn't built on Alpha or Omega though, it is built on a platform shared with a GMC Acadia.  I am not knocking the driving dynamics of alpha or omega, I have said all along Cadillac SUVs should be built on alpha and omega, not the Chevrolet parts bin.  Because Lincoln and Lexus have built SUVs on the Ford and Toyota parts bin and they never got out of the entry lux market (aside from a 6-8 year success of the Navigator which is long over).  

 

On size the XT5 compares to the GLE and BMW X5, it doesn't hold a candle to those 2.  The XT5 is like the original CTS, 5-series size for 3-series money.  XT5 may compare well to a Lincoln MKX or Lexus RX350.

 

As far as Porsche Macan goes, it is a bit hard to segment it, because it is a small SUV, but starts at $48k, and the options run it high fast.  I priced out a Macan Turbo on the ridiculous Porsche model configurator, I didn't pick a wheel upgrade, got leather seats (no alcantara upgrade) premium package, a sport package, LED lights, air suspension, torque vectoring awd, sport exhaust, adaptive cruise control and Burmeister audio.  The total was $101,260.   I skipped over all the carbon fiber trim upgrades, customer paint, red seat belts, painted air vents, etc, I also left off the $8,000 carbon ceramic brakes and $10,200 Turbo appearance package.  I could have run it up over $125,000.  

[surreal1272]

But XT5 isn't built on Alpha or Omega though, it is built on a platform shared with a GMC Acadia. I am not knocking the driving dynamics of alpha or omega, I have said all along Cadillac SUVs should be built on alpha and omega, not the Chevrolet parts bin. Because Lincoln and Lexus have built SUVs on the Ford and Toyota parts bin and they never got out of the entry lux market (aside from a 6-8 year success of the Navigator which is long over).

On size the XT5 compares to the GLE and BMW X5, it doesn't hold a candle to those 2. The XT5 is like the original CTS, 5-series size for 3-series money. XT5 may compare well to a Lincoln MKX or Lexus RX350.

As far as Porsche Macan goes, it is a bit hard to segment it, because it is a small SUV, but starts at $48k, and the options run it high fast. I priced out a Macan Turbo on the ridiculous Porsche model configurator, I didn't pick a wheel upgrade, got leather seats (no alcantara upgrade) premium package, a sport package, LED lights, air suspension, torque vectoring awd, sport exhaust, adaptive cruise control and Burmeister audio. The total was $101,260. I skipped over all the carbon fiber trim upgrades, customer paint, red seat belts, painted air vents, etc, I also left off the $8,000 carbon ceramic brakes and $10,200 Turbo appearance package. I could have run it up over $125,000.

Again, I'm going to stop you right there. It's driving dynamics have been well reviewed so, again, you're showing your bias and ignorance. Your only case against its dynamics is that it's FWD which could also be applied to the FWD GLA.

Besides, there's this little thing called AWD that is a great equalizer. That's what most Euro snobs want anyway.

Do you see the problem with your assessment yet?

Edited July 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

The GLA probably has the worst driving dynamics of any Mercedes not named Sprinter.  Well I don't know what a G-wagen is like, I never drove one of those, but that is a tank and not really concerned with handling, fuel economy or things normal cars worry about.   I actually never drove a GLA or CLA, I have sat in both, but my dealership doesn't even use them as loaners.  I've driven the GLK and GL, they are both good a crossover, but no match for a car.  GLA and CLA are made to help CAFE and appeal to bargain basement luxury shoppers.  Notice the rest of the Mercdedes line isn't front drive.   It is like how Chevy makes the front drive Cruze, but they aren't using front drive for the Camaro or Corvette.

 

All wheel drive doesn't fix weight bias.  The GLC, Macan, and X3 are all wheel drive also, but they aren't saddled with 60 or 63% of their weight over the front axel.  

 

I'd love to see a comparison of driving dynamics of an XT5 vs a Macan Turbo or an F-pace or GLC43.

[surreal1272]

The GLA probably has the worst driving dynamics of any Mercedes not named Sprinter. Well I don't know what a G-wagen is like, I never drove one of those, but that is a tank and not really concerned with handling, fuel economy or things normal cars worry about. I actually never drove a GLA or CLA, I have sat in both, but my dealership doesn't even use them as loaners. I've driven the GLK and GL, they are both good a crossover, but no match for a car. GLA and CLA are made to help CAFE and appeal to bargain basement luxury shoppers. Notice the rest of the Mercdedes line isn't front drive. It is like how Chevy makes the front drive Cruze, but they aren't using front drive for the Camaro or Corvette.

All wheel drive doesn't fix weight bias. The GLC, Macan, and X3 are all wheel drive also, but they aren't saddled with 60 or 63% of their weight over the front axel.

I'd love to see a comparison of driving dynamics of an XT5 vs a Macan Turbo or an F-pace or GLC43.

Now back up your AWD weight bias with facts and not pseudo numbers. The XT5 weight bias is now where near that. The AWD biases torque to the rear anyway. Again, it's driving dynamics have been well reviewed up to this point. Maybe you should actually read about it instead of giving hypothetical reasons why it sucks ass.

It is nice to know that you always have an excuse for Mercedes and how the issues that affect a FWD Cadillac doesn't affect them.

Edited July 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

An SRX has a 59/41 weight distribution, I couldn't find what the XT5 is.  A BMW X3 has a 48/52 weight balance.

 

I also said the GLA is probably the worst handling Mercedes outside of a commercial cargo van.   I haven't driven a GLA, but the FWD weight balance problems will plague that vehicle too, it might just be less noticeable in a 3,300 lb vehicle.  FWD is used on the GLA to keep it cheap, and get a good EPA fuel economy number to help their CAFE.  FWD, transverse mount engine cars can never match performance, ride, and handling of rear drive, longitudinal mount engines, all other things being equal.

[surreal1272]

An SRX has a 59/41 weight distribution, I couldn't find what the XT5 is. A BMW X3 has a 48/52 weight balance.

I also said the GLA is probably the worst handling Mercedes outside of a commercial cargo van. I haven't driven a GLA, but the FWD weight balance problems will plague that vehicle too, it might just be less noticeable in a 3,300 lb vehicle. FWD is used on the GLA to keep it cheap, and get a good EPA fuel economy number to help their CAFE. FWD, transverse mount engine cars can never match performance, ride, and handling of rear drive, longitudinal mount engines, all other things being equal.

You are still pulling numbers out of your posterior though. The XT5 is 300lbs. lighter than the SRX which will give it a far better weight bias. It still doesn't take away from the fact that even less than favorable reviews of it have remarked about its better than average handling characteristics due to the AWD system.

Face it. No matter what facts are in front of you, you will continue to come up with pie in the sky excuses as to why any given Cadillac can't succeed. That's all I'm going to say because I'm not going to waste anymore space here talking to a biased brick wall about cars.

Edited July 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

We'll see how the XT5 handles against this, especially the near 500 hp X3 M, I don't know what engine is in here, but it looks pretty fast for an SUV

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSk6-EHts8Q

[oldshurst442]

I say we sink this SUV

called the X3

to the bottom of the sea!

Edited July 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

That SMK...is what I call an SUV...

 

And this is what they are supposed to do:

 

 

 

 

If I wanted a fast wagon.....Id get myself one of these:

 

 

Anything that lies in between are for poseurs and soccer moms...

Edited July 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

In the u-tube of that BMWX3M, it sounds terrible, gets twitchy in a few turns, and it's plowing / overpowering its tires in others. 

BMW still has work to do to get their vehicles back to handling like they used to, but more to the point, an M version of the X3 is the answer to no one's question.

[oldshurst442]

The Escalade is a small step away from 500 HP..

 

The diminutive X3 is for young yuppie couples that think they need all wheel drive to get around in drizzle while looking that they have money.

500 horsepower is the least of their needs and wants....

 

Lattes and catching  Pokemon are their worries.

 

RoadandTrack even laughs at it!!!

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a29991/bmw-x3-m-spy-video/

 

Yes, the BMW X3 M Can Go Off-Road  

Just look at how well it handles challenging unpaved areas of the Nürburging.

(that really is the title with their GIF)

 

 

 

 

Don't think for a second that when BMW makes an M version of its X3 crossover, it'll give up the off-roading capability that made the X3 so beloved. No siree Bob: The X3 M will be as capable an off-roader as any X3, and BMW's at the Nürburging right now doing extensive testing to make damn sure of it.

YouTuber Automotive Mike captured video of an assumed X3 M mule romping around the 'Ring all dolled up in the obligatory prototype camouflage. The X3 M might be all about speed, thanks to what we assume is a turbo'd straight-six and a dual-clutch gearbox, but gaze in wonder at how confidently it puts two wheels on the grass. And the naysayers all said off-roadable SUVs were dying.

We absolutely can't wait for this car to debut so we can thoroughly test it in its natural environment–Moab.

 

 

 

Cadillac does not need a 500 HP CUV.

Cadillac does need a CUV...not a 500 HP one.

 

Porsche is riding high in the SUV world they have created for themselves.

If they are not careful with their product and marketing, Porsche will be known as a maker of SUVs rather than sports cars...

Which is fine because that is the world we are going down on anyway...but...

Porsche made some fine sports cars, that is why their SUVs sell the way they do.

But...their SUVs are not exactly what dreams are made of like their sports cars once were...

Many predators lurk in the automotive jungle that produce these SUVs...unlike sports cars back in the day...

Porsche may dull themselves to death...

 

Just like how BMW is doing to itself right NOW!

 

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

You have to be $h!ting me. I'm with Balth.

The X3 M is an answer to a question that no one is asking. Also, those things are hideous on outside and the inside. Simply hideous.

[Suaviloquent]

Interesting.

 

So will Cadillac also have lower displacement diesels?

 

Perhaps the whisper diesel will be used...

[smk4565]

In the u-tube of that BMWX3M, it sounds terrible, gets twitchy in a few turns, and it's plowing / overpowering its tires in others. 

BMW still has work to do to get their vehicles back to handling like they used to, but more to the point, an M version of the X3 is the answer to no one's question.

BMW's hand was forced by SQ5, Porsche Macan, and the forthcoming AMG GLC.    There has to be an X3 340i equivalent and M version.  They are in fact last to the party on this one.  

[smk4565]

 

Cadillac does not need a 500 HP CUV.

Cadillac does need a CUV...not a 500 HP one.

 

 

 

Does Cadillac need a 500 hp Sedan?  

 

Crossovers outsell sedans gang, and are rising, sedans are falling.  No point in having V-series at all if you only have 2 V products in shrinking segments.

 

And Cadillac wants to go to Europe, the top 5 Established luxury brands in Europe (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, JLR) all make performance crossovers.

Edited July 17, 2016 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

Cadillac does not need a 500 HP CUV.

Cadillac does need a CUV...not a 500 HP one.

Does Cadillac need a 500 hp Sedan?  

 

Crossovers outsell sedans gang, and are rising, sedans are falling.  No point in having V-series at all if you only have 2 V products in shrinking segments.

 

And Cadillac wants to go to Europe, the top 5 Established luxury brands in Europe (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, JLR) all make performance crossovers.

A 500HP sedan makes more sense than a 500HP CUV. The fact that this has to be explained to you is baffling and would also fly in the face of the several 500HP sedans Mercedes offers.

[balthazar]

I read that Mercedes is considering dropping the AMG versions of it's sedans. Falling percentages, you know.

 

- - - - -

The reasons the BMWX3M is being build is besides the point.
The 'performance' SUVs handle & drive terribly vs. sedan equivalents, and the video of the X3M shows it readily.

If you are going to apply your in-house 'performance' moniker to a CUV/SUV, it had better meet the bar, or forget it & just offer a BMWX3MSport instead.

[smk4565]

You can't argue that Cadillac is superior to the German competition because of the Alpha and Omega chassis and the associated handling and weight savings, and claim the CTS-V with 640 hp is the best sedan out there because of his horsepower rating, and then turn around and say the front drive V6 XT5 which is basically like a crossover Malibu/Impala type vehicle is better than the rear drive, lower weight, higher power German Crossovers.

 

If rear drive, alpha chassis, omega chassis, and V8s are good, then they should be in Cadillacs crossovers.  A Cadillac crossover should perform just as close to a CTS as possible.   15 years ago I bet a lot of people were saying Cadillac didn't need a 400 hp sedan to compete with the M5 and E55, then the Germans got so many sales and left Cadillac in the dust so they had to react.  Then Cadillac fans thought the CTS-V was the best car ever made because it had a Corvette engine in it.  When Cadillac should have had engines better than the Corvette all along.  Now all the others have good crossovers, Cadillac has mass market fwd and no performance.  You aren't a performance brand with 2 performance products.  

 

Funny how everyone hear will rip the CLA and GLA for being front wheel drive, but then say the XT5 which is 2 size segments and 1 price segment above is fine with front wheel drive.   Mercedes also makes 600+ hp sedans, coupes, convertibles, and SUVs, and the E63 wagon probably makes over 600 hp but they claim 577.  Cadillac is having problems getting past 500 hp with the exception of 1 sedan.

[surreal1272]

You can't argue that Cadillac is superior to the German competition because of the Alpha and Omega chassis and the associated handling and weight savings, and claim the CTS-V with 640 hp is the best sedan out there because of his horsepower rating, and then turn around and say the front drive V6 XT5 which is basically like a crossover Malibu/Impala type vehicle is better than the rear drive, lower weight, higher power German Crossovers.

If rear drive, alpha chassis, omega chassis, and V8s are good, then they should be in Cadillacs crossovers. A Cadillac crossover should perform just as close to a CTS as possible. 15 years ago I bet a lot of people were saying Cadillac didn't need a 400 hp sedan to compete with the M5 and E55, then the Germans got so many sales and left Cadillac in the dust so they had to react. Then Cadillac fans thought the CTS-V was the best car ever made because it had a Corvette engine in it. When Cadillac should have had engines better than the Corvette all along. Now all the others have good crossovers, Cadillac has mass market fwd and no performance. You aren't a performance brand with 2 performance products.

Funny how everyone hear will rip the CLA and GLA for being front wheel drive, but then say the XT5 which is 2 size segments and 1 price segment above is fine with front wheel drive. Mercedes also makes 600+ hp sedans, coupes, convertibles, and SUVs, and the E63 wagon probably makes over 600 hp but they claim 577. Cadillac is having problems getting past 500 hp with the exception of 1 sedan.

You have literally missed every point. I guess that's what happens when you constantly have to deflect your double standards.

Btw, who said Cadillac is a performance brand? They are a luxury brand with some performance models. That's your problem. You imagine scenarios that have never been brought up because no one else would be naive enough to do such things.

Edited July 17, 2016 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Cadillac does not need a 500 HP CUV.

Cadillac does need a CUV...not a 500 HP one.

 

 

 

Does Cadillac need a 500 hp Sedan?  

 

Crossovers outsell sedans gang, and are rising, sedans are falling.  No point in having V-series at all if you only have 2 V products in shrinking segments.

 

And Cadillac wants to go to Europe, the top 5 Established luxury brands in Europe (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, JLR) all make performance crossovers.

 

Yup..you are right...

 

There is no point in having "V" Series sedans either..they are not selling...well, Cadillac sold all of the CTS V inventory so far and awaiting production for next year's V Series models.

 

But...lower center of gravity is the one ingredient that defines better performance numbers...

Ground clearance is what defines SUVs and their role for off roading...

 

The bastardization that BMW/Mercedes Benz/Porsche does to that definition will severely mess up the core audience of these companies (more so for BMW as M-B and Porsche build REAL sports cars and REAL off roading SUVs)

 

BMW does NOT build any performance car that dominates anything or anybody anymore and they have NEVER built anything that crawls sidewalks with ease let alone the Rubicon trails...

 

BMW is really messin' with their image.

What is a "M"  X3 supposed to do?

 

Have awesome Nurburgring numbers?

A lowly Cobalt SS could probably outmaneuver it...

 

For an SUV you say?

Sorry, but probably a Trailhawk Jeep will kick its ass....and its a HEMI!

JEEP has a very very loyal following...I doubt latte swilling fools looking for Pokeman will give a shyte about the Nurburgring numbers..

 

Off road-ability for a "M" X3?

HA!

 

JEEP has a very very very loyal following....

 

Cadilla has no need to do a 500 HP diminutive SUV...

Chevy or GMC dont even have that need...

 

Besides...GM on a high powered diminutive SUV...

BEEN THERE DONE THAT!

PS: They were the first to offer one...waaaay back in 1991 or something like that...

[oldshurst442]

High performance soccermom-mobiles on stilts is an answer NOBODY is asking...

Maybe in the 1990s when the SUV craze begun and there was automobile enthusiasts galore...maybe that intersection of craziness may have demanded that....but in 2016...a new form of car hating hippies have emerged: the latte swilling, internet chatting and device coddling idiots where safety enhanced driving aids are a must is upon us...

 

Listen to this video....you tell me.

Does this dude the way he describes the Ford Escape and all of its features...really is that much of a different consumer base than for the BMW X3, M badge or not?

 

Even the M3/M4 does not attract the car crazy petrol head anymore...

[smk4565]

To be clear, I think 100% of Cadillac's models should have a V-series version.  If they are going to build a CTS-V and tout the performance, then all other vehicles in the lineup should be treated the same way.  I have also often said Cadillac should have a performance car above Corvette as well.

 

What baffles me is Cadillac fans here saying no thanks, we don't want a twin turbo V6 crossover, we don't want a mid-engine supercar, we don't want a V8 convertible, we don't want a twin Turbo V8 full size crossover, no thanks to a supercharged V8 Escalade, the XT5 is the pinnacle of automotive performance, no reason to build anything better.

Edited July 17, 2016 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

To be clear, I think 100% of Cadillac's models should have a V-series version.  If they are going to build a CTS-V and tout the performance, then all other vehicles in the lineup should be treated the same way.  I have also often said Cadillac should have a performance car above Corvette as well.

 

What baffles me is Cadillac fans here saying no thanks, we don't want a twin turbo V6 crossover, we don't want a mid-engine supercar, we don't want a V8 convertible, we don't want a twin Turbo V8 full size crossover, no thanks to a supercharged V8 Escalade, the XT5 is the pinnacle of automotive performance, no reason to build anything better.

That is the most asinine thing you've said on this entire thread.