NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Fatal Crash With Tesla's Autopilot

hyperv6 · July 6, 2016

Off topic.

And it concerns American politics and Im Canadian, so I aint offended by this, but as a Canadian who had a dad fight in WW2 and as of Greek origin who Nazi Germany made a mess out of Greece....and the whole of Europe actually, and all kinds of genocides.....

Referring and alluding to modern, democratic politicians as related to that short man with the mustache irks the hell out of me.

(not to pin this solely on Hyper and the Hitlerary comment, but generally speaking as many do this, even Canadians do this with Steven Harper...some of us Canucks compared his party to the Nazis...)

Hillary has lied.

Many times.

The Clintons have all kinds of fraud allegations connected to their name.

Bill Clinton.

Forgetting his intern relationship that he had no sexual relations, which is on him, his marriage and his commitment to Hillary and the knot they both tied that defines his relationship with his better half and God...because God was a witness to that bond in matrimony...at least that romp was consensual..therefore who a I to judge him?

HOWEVER....how many other "non-sexual" relationships were of the free will of his victims?

Not for me to judge, but there are stories out there...and often is the case, where there is smoke, there is fire.

But...with all that going on with the Clintons, and as it turns out, Steven Harper, or Angela Merkel with the Brexit debacle...I serious doubt that all of them combined have come close to the evil that is Hitler!

So Id like to say, in general....

Please, let us refrain with the Nazi comparisons...if it aint about ISIS or Hussein or Stalin or some other real evil entity...

I get where you are coming from. I still have my fathers photos of the death camps and ovens when he was there after the war. He made it clear to me what happened and how terrible it was.

But with that said you also have to consider we use his name as a metaphor for out similar feelings of people doing wrong and what many of us perceive as people that are leading us on a similar path of less freedoms and more misleading of people with many promises and false hope.

Case in point while Gitmo may not be perfect I do wonder what Obama will say and do when one of the people he released goes out had kills hundreds in a blast or attack. It is not a matter of if but when. One is missing in South America now.

While I get your view of levels of wrong and evil. Many others just see wrong as wrong. We do not rate it we do not segregate it. Plus it rhymes with Hillary.

Sorry if I offended but that was never the intent. I am just a little ticked off right now with her getting a free pass from the FBI director. If that was any of us we would have been in jail. Just because you are a Clinton Trump or Sanders you should not get a free pass.

Bills Female issues are one thing and a lack of character that hurts my country indirectly. But Hillary's Email issue is something that hurts my country directly, People may agree or disagree but that is just my take on it.

Well back to the topic.

Not sure if everyone has seen crash #2

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/

Edited July 6, 2016 by hyperv6

oldshurst442 · July 6, 2016

No worries Hyper.

It was more of a general rant not directed towards you.

Back to the topic at hand.

crash #2....

After many many near misses since Tesla launched this shyte, this does NOT come as a surprise to me.

Maybe this latest incident will quell the need for autonomous driving...

Edited July 6, 2016 by oldshurst442

G. David Felt · July 6, 2016

Well here is the deal.

It all comes down to Lawyers. Who has more money and more likely to settle. A larger company that builds more cars in a month than Tesla makes in a year. This puts a large target on them for lawyers.

The media likes an underdog and gives them a pass unless they are an conservative. Tesla is their underdog right now in the auto industry to they get a free pass on many things.

Finally while it is the idiot behind the wheel that is ultimately responsible that is not how out government and society acts anymore.

For example. Who held a gun to anyone's head to start smoking? No one but yet they have taken the cigarette companies to task for it. Same for the gun companies as a gun has never killed anyone on it's own but the person behind the trigger has. Yet they try to take gun companies to task legally and by the government intervention.

There are other classic examples where the product is not the primary cause but is blamed for the issues.

As for saying the others will face the same issues is not true yet of even fair to say. They all are learning and Tesla taught them all a good lesson here. People are just not ready for these systems yet. I expect that the legal departments at all the companies are really looking into this right now as well as the government.

So to say the others will face the same things or fail in the same way is not fair to say till they do. I expect this whole deal will change much from what was predicted where we would be short term.

It was a gamble for Tesla and it has not paid off. On the other hand the media has given them a greater margin for error here so they may not pay as big of a price. The lawyers do not have enough cars, victims or money to go after either.

Will we get a full autonomous car. Yes at some point but right now I expect the full extent of the systems may be changed as legally most will balk at the problems and legal issues that will be faced.

No matter how much the human element fails the companies will be the ones that pay the price.

Remember we hold few people at fault today. If you are a drug attic or drunk you have an illness. If you are poor you are a victim, if you have failed in life do to poor choices the system has failed you.

There in lies the problem where no matter what a company does it will be their fault in the end.

Personal accountability is dead in America as long as you can blame something or someone else.

Just watch the campaign and how Hitlery will tell everyone how it is not their fault for their problems and then promise them the moon for a vote.

Leaving Politics out of this and focusing on the biggest issue you really nailed Hyperv6, personal accountability. Way to many people are willing to take risk, make poor decisions and happily blame the system and everyone else for their failure.

Perfect example is way too many bankruptcy Drump boy has done. Never his incompetence in business but everyone else and every other reason as to why he had to dump his debt on others and burn / destroy other companies for his own personal gain.

Pathetic time we live in that many americans are not willing to take personal accountability for their own actions.

Fire all politicians, instill a 2 term limit, 4 years max per limit for house, senate and president. Turn ALL government workers, city, county, state and all federal onto the same Social Security and Medicaid that the rest of us have to use. This will force them to fix the problem.Tort reform, hold the people wasting time and money in the courts for the lawyers benefits accountable to pay all legal cost when their worthless lawsuit loses.

Yes I can go on, but personal accountability is severely lacking in our country. So sad, So bad, so we have been had!

G. David Felt · July 6, 2016

Well back to the topic.
Not sure if everyone has seen crash #2

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/

Have to say that there are WAY TOO MANY videos showing stupid idiots using their self driving mode and doing stupid stuff. We are nowhere near the point of being able to take a nap, play jenga, watch movies and ignore the road. The arrogance of the Tesla Owners can HURT not Help EV auto sales.

We DO NOT need to gov stepping in and saying what we can and cannot do but come on, common sense about being responsible. This just proves the lack of common sense and personal accountability. These morons will all come back and blame Tesla or at least try.

I personally hope this just slides by and does not hurt the introduction of the BOLT, Ioniq and second generation Leaf all with 200+ mile range in the next 12 months. By the time Tesla 3 comes out in 2018 or later, there is going to be plenty of options for awesome EV rides that I expect half of the 400,000 Tesla 3 reservations will be refunded as people go to other car companies.

oldshurst442 · July 6, 2016

Well.

I hope one thing does come out of this.

That autonomous driving be put to rest!

hyperv6 · July 6, 2016

Well here is the deal.

It all comes down to Lawyers. Who has more money and more likely to settle. A larger company that builds more cars in a month than Tesla makes in a year. This puts a large target on them for lawyers.

The media likes an underdog and gives them a pass unless they are an conservative. Tesla is their underdog right now in the auto industry to they get a free pass on many things.

Finally while it is the idiot behind the wheel that is ultimately responsible that is not how out government and society acts anymore.

For example. Who held a gun to anyone's head to start smoking? No one but yet they have taken the cigarette companies to task for it. Same for the gun companies as a gun has never killed anyone on it's own but the person behind the trigger has. Yet they try to take gun companies to task legally and by the government intervention.

There are other classic examples where the product is not the primary cause but is blamed for the issues.

As for saying the others will face the same issues is not true yet of even fair to say. They all are learning and Tesla taught them all a good lesson here. People are just not ready for these systems yet. I expect that the legal departments at all the companies are really looking into this right now as well as the government.

So to say the others will face the same things or fail in the same way is not fair to say till they do. I expect this whole deal will change much from what was predicted where we would be short term.

It was a gamble for Tesla and it has not paid off. On the other hand the media has given them a greater margin for error here so they may not pay as big of a price. The lawyers do not have enough cars, victims or money to go after either.

Will we get a full autonomous car. Yes at some point but right now I expect the full extent of the systems may be changed as legally most will balk at the problems and legal issues that will be faced.

No matter how much the human element fails the companies will be the ones that pay the price.

Remember we hold few people at fault today. If you are a drug attic or drunk you have an illness. If you are poor you are a victim, if you have failed in life do to poor choices the system has failed you.

There in lies the problem where no matter what a company does it will be their fault in the end.

Personal accountability is dead in America as long as you can blame something or someone else.

Just watch the campaign and how Hitlery will tell everyone how it is not their fault for their problems and then promise them the moon for a vote.

Leaving Politics out of this and focusing on the biggest issue you really nailed Hyperv6, personal accountability. Way to many people are willing to take risk, make poor decisions and happily blame the system and everyone else for their failure.

Perfect example is way too many bankruptcy Drump boy has done. Never his incompetence in business but everyone else and every other reason as to why he had to dump his debt on others and burn / destroy other companies for his own personal gain.

Pathetic time we live in that many americans are not willing to take personal accountability for their own actions.

Fire all politicians, instill a 2 term limit, 4 years max per limit for house, senate and president. Turn ALL government workers, city, county, state and all federal onto the same Social Security and Medicaid that the rest of us have to use. This will force them to fix the problem.Tort reform, hold the people wasting time and money in the courts for the lawyers benefits accountable to pay all legal cost when their worthless lawsuit loses.

Yes I can go on, but personal accountability is severely lacking in our country. So sad, So bad, so we have been had!

Well since you did not leave the political out and just to be fair many business people and realty speculates use bankruptcy to clean the books of businesses and property they buy or to clear some risky investments they make because they can.

Trust me I am not a fan of Trump but fairs fair. What he did was not illegal It may not be morally sound but not illegal. But what madam secretary Hillary did was unmoral and illegal. We are screwed no matter what.

Many investors lose money or fail on many projects to find the ones that work. It is like Edison as he would fail 1000 times for one success.

Even GM used the bankruptcy laws to clear the books for bad decisions and deals made by people years ago that they could not turn any other way.

Bankruptcy today is seen as a tool or advantage not a failure anymore. Sad but true.

I do not see this hurting the Bolt as it will not have autonomous.

I just for one think they need to rename the systems as not to mislead. It really is not autopilot or all that autonomous at times. Also the NHSTA needs to rethink this and how to regulate it before they open Pandora's box. Once it is out then we are in trouble as you can not put in back in the box.

Funny how the NHSTA will not put things in like Heads up but they will pass systems that are not totally resolved. I would say systems like Audi and maybe Cadillac may have much of this resolved but even then they need to be proven before given to the masses. Even then are people to be trusted.

I had traffic tied up today because two idiots OD on Heroin while driving. Yet they some want drugs made legal?

We can turn up the brightness on our HD TV but it still does not make the shows any smarter. Unless it is How It's Made. LOL!

hyperv6 · July 6, 2016

Well back to the topic.
Not sure if everyone has seen crash #2

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/

Have to say that there are WAY TOO MANY videos showing stupid idiots using their self driving mode and doing stupid stuff. We are nowhere near the point of being able to take a nap, play jenga, watch movies and ignore the road. The arrogance of the Tesla Owners can HURT not Help EV auto sales.

We DO NOT need to gov stepping in and saying what we can and cannot do but come on, common sense about being responsible. This just proves the lack of common sense and personal accountability. These morons will all come back and blame Tesla or at least try.

I personally hope this just slides by and does not hurt the introduction of the BOLT, Ioniq and second generation Leaf all with 200+ mile range in the next 12 months. By the time Tesla 3 comes out in 2018 or later, there is going to be plenty of options for awesome EV rides that I expect half of the 400,000 Tesla 3 reservations will be refunded as people go to other car companies.

No matter how good you make the cars the weak link is the loose nut behind the wheel.

Right now these systems are not idiot proof and may never be. Someone will always find a way to abuse it or find a way to get hurt using it.

The right thing to do is keep the driver engaged in the car and it's operation. You may just save some lives including the innocent people that get swept up in someone else mess.

oldshurst442 · July 7, 2016

Autonomous driving Bolts are seen in San Francisco in mid May.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/18/autonomous-chevy-bolt-ev-spy-photo/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2016/05/19/why-gms-autonomous-chevrolet-bolt-is-running-around-san-francisco/#69e2f59944b1

GM had acquired a tech company called Cruise Automation and this is what they do and they are testing their tech with the Bolt.

GM cant be left behind you see, with all these Silicon Valley bastards that think that autonomous driving is the future.

What you said Hyper in the last two posts are BANG ON!!!

But these Silicon Valley a-holes dont share our opinions.

PS: Does that make Elon Musk and do I think that Elon Musk is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole?

I guess it does make him Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole and I guess I do think he is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole...

Edited July 7, 2016 by oldshurst442

G. David Felt · July 7, 2016

Well here is the deal.

It all comes down to Lawyers. Who has more money and more likely to settle. A larger company that builds more cars in a month than Tesla makes in a year. This puts a large target on them for lawyers.

The media likes an underdog and gives them a pass unless they are an conservative. Tesla is their underdog right now in the auto industry to they get a free pass on many things.

Finally while it is the idiot behind the wheel that is ultimately responsible that is not how out government and society acts anymore.

For example. Who held a gun to anyone's head to start smoking? No one but yet they have taken the cigarette companies to task for it. Same for the gun companies as a gun has never killed anyone on it's own but the person behind the trigger has. Yet they try to take gun companies to task legally and by the government intervention.

There are other classic examples where the product is not the primary cause but is blamed for the issues.

As for saying the others will face the same issues is not true yet of even fair to say. They all are learning and Tesla taught them all a good lesson here. People are just not ready for these systems yet. I expect that the legal departments at all the companies are really looking into this right now as well as the government.

So to say the others will face the same things or fail in the same way is not fair to say till they do. I expect this whole deal will change much from what was predicted where we would be short term.

It was a gamble for Tesla and it has not paid off. On the other hand the media has given them a greater margin for error here so they may not pay as big of a price. The lawyers do not have enough cars, victims or money to go after either.

Will we get a full autonomous car. Yes at some point but right now I expect the full extent of the systems may be changed as legally most will balk at the problems and legal issues that will be faced.

No matter how much the human element fails the companies will be the ones that pay the price.

Remember we hold few people at fault today. If you are a drug attic or drunk you have an illness. If you are poor you are a victim, if you have failed in life do to poor choices the system has failed you.

There in lies the problem where no matter what a company does it will be their fault in the end.

Personal accountability is dead in America as long as you can blame something or someone else.

Just watch the campaign and how Hitlery will tell everyone how it is not their fault for their problems and then promise them the moon for a vote.

Leaving Politics out of this and focusing on the biggest issue you really nailed Hyperv6, personal accountability. Way to many people are willing to take risk, make poor decisions and happily blame the system and everyone else for their failure.

Perfect example is way too many bankruptcy Drump boy has done. Never his incompetence in business but everyone else and every other reason as to why he had to dump his debt on others and burn / destroy other companies for his own personal gain.

Pathetic time we live in that many americans are not willing to take personal accountability for their own actions.

Fire all politicians, instill a 2 term limit, 4 years max per limit for house, senate and president. Turn ALL government workers, city, county, state and all federal onto the same Social Security and Medicaid that the rest of us have to use. This will force them to fix the problem.Tort reform, hold the people wasting time and money in the courts for the lawyers benefits accountable to pay all legal cost when their worthless lawsuit loses.

Yes I can go on, but personal accountability is severely lacking in our country. So sad, So bad, so we have been had!

Well since you did not leave the political out and just to be fair many business people and realty speculates use bankruptcy to clean the books of businesses and property they buy or to clear some risky investments they make because they can.

Trust me I am not a fan of Trump but fairs fair. What he did was not illegal It may not be morally sound but not illegal. But what madam secretary Hillary did was unmoral and illegal. We are screwed no matter what.

Many investors lose money or fail on many projects to find the ones that work. It is like Edison as he would fail 1000 times for one success.

Even GM used the bankruptcy laws to clear the books for bad decisions and deals made by people years ago that they could not turn any other way.

Bankruptcy today is seen as a tool or advantage not a failure anymore. Sad but true.

I do not see this hurting the Bolt as it will not have autonomous.

I just for one think they need to rename the systems as not to mislead. It really is not autopilot or all that autonomous at times. Also the NHSTA needs to rethink this and how to regulate it before they open Pandora's box. Once it is out then we are in trouble as you can not put in back in the box.

Funny how the NHSTA will not put things in like Heads up but they will pass systems that are not totally resolved. I would say systems like Audi and maybe Cadillac may have much of this resolved but even then they need to be proven before given to the masses. Even then are people to be trusted.

I had traffic tied up today because two idiots OD on Heroin while driving. Yet they some want drugs made legal?

We can turn up the brightness on our HD TV but it still does not make the shows any smarter. Unless it is How It's Made. LOL!

:roflmao: I agree with you we are screwed no matter what with both crooked candidates. I tried my best to leave the politics out of it, but Trump does just fry my butt for how he abused bankruptcy. Yes it is a tool or an advantage used by companies but that does not mean it is right. We should have another thread to discuss that topic.

I agree that the NHSTA needs to get their act together on this ASAP.

G. David Felt · July 7, 2016

Autonomous driving Bolts are seen in San Francisco in mid May.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/18/autonomous-chevy-bolt-ev-spy-photo/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2016/05/19/why-gms-autonomous-chevrolet-bolt-is-running-around-san-francisco/#69e2f59944b1

GM had acquired a tech company called Cruise Automation and this is what they do and they are testing their tech with the Bolt.

GM can't be left behind you see, with all these Silicon Valley bastards that think that autonomous driving is the future.

What you said Hyper in the last two posts are BANG ON!!!

But these Silicon Valley a-holes don't share our opinions.

PS: Does that make Elon Musk and do I think that Elon Musk is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole?

I guess it does make him Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole and I guess I do think he is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole...

Yup posted about this on the BOLT thread in alternative fuel forum.

Have no desire for Tesla to die, but their CEO is sure something special in an Asshole Kinda way!

Yet since everyone wants to take no responsibility, how do we move humanity forward unless we have the occasional deluded asshole driving new tech.

hyperv6 · July 7, 2016

Autonomous driving Bolts are seen in San Francisco in mid May.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/18/autonomous-chevy-bolt-ev-spy-photo/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2016/05/19/why-gms-autonomous-chevrolet-bolt-is-running-around-san-francisco/#69e2f59944b1

GM had acquired a tech company called Cruise Automation and this is what they do and they are testing their tech with the Bolt.

GM can't be left behind you see, with all these Silicon Valley bastards that think that autonomous driving is the future.

What you said Hyper in the last two posts are BANG ON!!!

But these Silicon Valley a-holes don't share our opinions.

PS: Does that make Elon Musk and do I think that Elon Musk is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole?

I guess it does make him Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole and I guess I do think he is a Silicon Valley bastard and a-hole...

Yup posted about this on the BOLT thread in alternative fuel forum.

Have no desire for Tesla to die, but their CEO is sure something special in an Asshole Kinda way!

Yet since everyone wants to take no responsibility, how do we move humanity forward unless we have the occasional deluded asshole driving new tech.

I really think that we have gone to long with out a crisis in this contrary. It used to be a war every so many years that took sacrifice or depression and then a health plauge that would kill thousands.

I hate to say it but we have lost all character, modesty and integrity. we saw a glimpse of it when 911 happened where we were humbled and all came together but it only lasted a short while.

We also have used and abused religion. While we have had many people walk away from it because of the Jim Bakers and the molesting priest we have also left some simple principals behind that generally keep people from being creeps or vial people. No matter if you believe in God or not the 10 Commandments if followed would solve much of what pains the world. But today we have people with no respect for much of anything or anyone and now we have so many doing as they want and paying the price for it leaving the rest of us cleaning up after them.

I do expect there is a time we will face crises that will make 911 look like nothing and we will be humbles again. I expect many will die. It may be war. Sickness or just collapse of out country in some way as we can not continue as we are. I may or may not be here to see it but the day is coming as we can not continue on this way.

Sorry about the doom and gloom but we just are not the people or world we are and if you look at history of the world there has always been a equalizer that comes and wipes people out and resets society. There is good and evil in thew world and there is both inside each one of us. Over time evil in each of us will do major harm and we all pay a price for it with the entire human race.

The issues with terror will in time go global and there will be people who will try to break up the status quo. It will be how we respond in how it comes out. Right now I do not see us reacting in a way to survive. To many people with too many personal agendas to work as a group as we did in WWII anymore.

Sorry for the downer in the AM but we have many worse things coming than stupid people in self driving cars and so many do not see it coming. The two people we have running I do not think are prepared to deal with it. I see one as criminal and self centered and the other as obnoxious and self centered. Anyone smart enough for the office has the sense not to run anymore.

Even in business the arrogance is amazing like Mr Musk, Cuban and others. Just because they did get things right does not make them a great leader. It is the other intangibles that count that make a great leader. The Goodyear Tire Company just lost a great retired leader in Stanley Gault. He was a great man and fixed a lot of issues and always tried to do the right thing for the company and employees where ever he was. He was a leader of a large company but would about once a month to stop by with a cup of coffee and sit down with my father to catch up on things. My father was not a high ranked guy in the company but Stanley would keep in touch with the people doing the work and he knew from the top to the bottom the challenges they faced. He helped Goodyear and made Rubbermaid number one when he was there.

Gault was proof that it was not just about doing the right things but doing the right that counted.

G. David Felt · July 7, 2016

agree, we do need to reset many things in the world. Society needs a correction.

oldshurst442 · July 7, 2016

Uh-Oh, Spaghettios!

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a29877/tesla-model-s-autopilot-fatal-crash-laptop-dvd/

The driver of the truck involved in the crash had alleged that the Tesla driver was watching a movie, insinuating that he was not paying attention while the car drove itself. But now, investigators are refuting that claim.

As CNBC reports, Florida Highway Patrol investigators have revealed that they recovered a laptop computer and a portable DVD player from the wreckage of the crash, which occurred on May 7th. But according to Sergeant Kim Montes, neither the computer nor the DVD player were running when authorities arrived at the crash scene. Montes said investigators could not determine if the Tesla driver was operating either device in the moments leading up to the crash.

If true, I have a good feeling that the grim reaper might strike his sickle thingy right through the heart of the autonomous driving movement.

Or at least put it on ice for a couple of years....

FAPTurbo · July 8, 2016

LLLLMFAO at all the people here who circle-jerked day in and day out over Bob Putz now chastising Elon Musk for having a brash personality.

ocnblu · July 8, 2016

There are innumerable, very plain differences between the two. For example, Bob LUTZ (not Putz) is a vastly experienced auto executive who has REAL WORLD knowledge and business acumen gained over decades all over the world at various automotive entities. He is considered an elder statesman of the industry. Whereas the other guy just STINKS to high heaven.

G. David Felt · July 8, 2016

Dave 2.0 of the NEW 21st Century 2001 A Space Odyssey remake!

Dave what are you doing?

ccap41 · July 8, 2016

Random, did you guys realize Elon Musk was the creator of PayPal?? I just found this out yesterday.

surreal1272 · July 8, 2016

There are innumerable, very plain differences between the two. For example, Bob LUTZ (not Putz) is a vastly experienced auto executive who has REAL WORLD knowledge and business acumen gained over decades all over the world at various automotive entities. He is considered an elder statesman of the industry. Whereas the other guy just STINKS to high heaven.

th.jpg

Really? That's your big differentiating statement between two? Might as well have just been sticking out your tongue while you were doing that. Edited July 8, 2016 by surreal1272

oldshurst442 · July 8, 2016

Bob Lutz has business acumen...

Sure, the Volt is a success....so is the Model S.

However, all Australian imports were duds. Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, Chevrolet SS...

The Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky was also a dud...

Business acumen....sure...past business acumen....Maximum Bob stayed in the past...

Elon Musk defines the present and the future.

Starting with PayPal.

Ending with battery production.

In the middle is marketing an electric vehicle to the masses and making it cool to own one, in the process creating a fine damned electric automobile in the Model S.

The irony....the Model S' competitor in the Fisker Karma went bust.

Maximum Bob took the Fisker Karma body shell and added the only thing he knows best....a V8 under the hood instead of batteries.

That works for me...but many others see that as an ancient technique...

Elon has it...electricity is a far more volatile form of power than black gold!!!

Argue that all you want...

Maximum Bob is a relic from the past.

Elon is the next coming of Christ.

No matter how you view that, whether for or against or bad or good....that is the reality of things....

Business acumen....Elon all by himself changed the world on how we do business, over the internet, all by himself shortened the trade routes and expanded them all at the same time....business acumen you say???

Yeah....I dont think Maximum Bob has anything over Elon...

G. David Felt · July 8, 2016

Random, did you guys realize Elon Musk was the creator of PayPal?? I just found this out yesterday.

Yup, he made his billions off paypal and now is doing what he wants regardless of what others think. Very cool.

ccap41 · July 8, 2016

Random, did you guys realize Elon Musk was the creator of PayPal?? I just found this out yesterday.

Yup, he made his billions off paypal and now is doing what he wants regardless of what others think. Very cool.

Aaaaaand before PayPal he sold his first company for $307 million..

Dude is a smart fella..

FAPTurbo · July 8, 2016

For example, Bob LUTZ (not Putz) is a vastly experienced auto executive who has REAL WORLD knowledge and business acumen gained over decades all over the world at various automotive entities.

So where's his 31.6 Billion Dollar market cap car company? All he can muster after all these years is putting a V8 into a vehicle from a dead brand. CALL THE INTERNET, WE GOT AN ORIGINAL IDEA OVER HERE!!

Sad!

ocnblu · July 8, 2016

For example, Bob LUTZ (not Putz) is a vastly experienced auto executive who has REAL WORLD knowledge and business acumen gained over decades all over the world at various automotive entities.

So where's his 31.6 Billion Dollar market cap car company? All he can muster after all these years is putting a V8 into a vehicle from a dead brand. CALL THE INTERNET, WE GOT AN ORIGINAL IDEA OVER HERE!!

Sad!

You can't be that ignorant. No, really. Look it up.

There are innumerable, very plain differences between the two. For example, Bob LUTZ (not Putz) is a vastly experienced auto executive who has REAL WORLD knowledge and business acumen gained over decades all over the world at various automotive entities. He is considered an elder statesman of the industry. Whereas the other guy just STINKS to high heaven.

th.jpg

Really? That's your big differentiating statement between two? Might as well have just been sticking out your tongue while you were doing that.

FAPTurbo · July 8, 2016

Look what up?... The G6 GXP? The G8? The GTO? The XLR? The STS? The G3? The G5? The Grand Prix GXP? The Saturn brand? Or gimping the Volt launch by over-promising, under-delivering on product?

YAH THAT'S CLEARLY THE MARK OF SUPER DUPER MAXIMUM LUTZ SUCCESS RIGHT THERE.

hyperv6 · July 8, 2016

Look what up?... The G6 GXP? The G8? The GTO? The XLR? The STS? The G3? The G5? The Grand Prix GXP? The Saturn brand? Or gimping the Volt launch by over-promising, under-delivering on product?

YAH THAT'S CLEARLY THE MARK OF SUPER DUPER MAXIMUM LUTZ SUCCESS RIGHT THERE.

Yes all models that were build with virtually little time and no money by a guy in his 80's.

Now if you look back he also sent BMW on the path to where they are today with the 3 series and the Ultimate Driving Machine marketing. He also turned things around at Chrysler till lee iacocca let ego's clash and he put Bob Gale in charge.

Many of Bobs Chrysler products made them a lot of money and gave them much exposure. Again he did it with tight money and little time.

The man found a way to sell a Cobalt wagon as an HHR and while everyone said it would fail it went on to sell most years in 6 figures. Anyone else at GM found a way to sell a wagon in six figures.

Who also at GM got them to streamline things, Bob. Who asked why the panel gaps were so large and could it be fixed. Bob. Who said empowered the designers and engineers to do what is right and not worry about being a little over budget if it will sell a car?.

Much of the empowerment of GM today is due to what he started and what he set fourth as how to do things building a car. No more wringing your hangs just because you want to put a part on a car that really needs it.

Anyone can look at the 06 Malibu and then the 07-08 new model and can see even in the midst of bankruptcy he was able to get a model to where it was one of the best selling in the segment.

As for the Volt it was done fast and it was done with little help from the outside as there was little in the way of suppliers back then. GM had to recruit companies to invest in making what they needed. Today the new Volt is a hell of a car and selling better as more people discover it.

Lutz had the Viper right but then they screwed it up over time.

He arrived he questioned the Aztec as to why they did it and could someone fix it? The GTP was done for 04 and was so bad he ordered to be revamped as much as they could. The Lacrosse was sent back and delayed by a year because it was so bad. The hard points limited what they could do but that they got was better than it would have been. The G6 was pretty much done when he got there.

He questioned Pontiac is a performance division but you have no RWD? So with no budget he was able to get the GTO made with so little money the hood scoops had to wait a year. It is a shame but Pontiac was dead by the time he arrived. There just was no money or time to save them.

Saturn also was gone by the time he arrived. The Opels were a good move but just 10 years too late. Not much he could have done on that.

He tried to fix Cadillac some but again the STS was pretty much done and all he could do is soften the lines. The XLR was not just about making a Cadillac but also trying to increase production at Bowling Green to make it less venerable when times got tight.

What was wrong with the G8?

Yes he did a few mistakes like the GMC Envoy with the sliding top and there were some other models he just has not time and money to do much about. I guess everyone has their X model to bear.

I would rather think Elon could not have done as well.

Elon right now is still struggling to get more cars built and more money to build them. While he paints a pretty picture he has money issues. Pre selling the 3 is telling on how much they needed money. Also the additional selling of stock also is a tell.

At some point Telsa has to make money on their cars and not just carbon credits. Also they will need to sell cars with no government rebates to the buyers. To reach long term volumes he will have to find a way to sell a cheaper car. At this point the 3 is not the cheap car he promises and it will also be late as all the other models. It will cost a lot of money to ramp up and he needs the income from the 3 to help pay the bills.

Of late Tesla is losing many of their management. Could this be a sign of problems ahead? Time will tell.

You can say what you like about Uncle Bob but he has gotten more tight than wrong. His brashness has held him back from doing more than he did but it is what it is. On the other hand much of what he did get tight came from not backing down.

Things like him walking into GM and going to the power train guys and telling them I have your back now do what you can do regardless what you are told to do brought us things cars like the ZR1 with its wonderful engine.

I am driving a 300 HP 4 cylinder today due to him. Yes I know others have that much power and more but this is an 08 model back when no one was doing that.

Just look at the cars The GM performance division produced. All great cars. He moved these folks into the programs from the start and now not only do we have cars like the CTSV that are wonderful but even the base models ride and drive with world class acclaim.

Bob was not the top guy and he had to fight for what he got. Elon is the top guy and yet yet he still struggles.

oldshurst442 · July 9, 2016

Paypal...

THAT should be the end of this Dick measuring contest...

And the cherry on top of the Dick...

The Model S is what is making post-Maximum Bob BMW to go full tilt with EVs like the i3 and i8...

Argue all you want....seems like sour grapes to me...

hyperv6 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

oldshurst442 · July 9, 2016

But the problem is Hyper....

Nazi Germany (Tesla)...

had so much advanced technology (Tesla) that the Allied powers scrambled to copy and steal during WW2 and after WW2...

The Atom bomb...Nazi Germany was working on one....some historians say had the war prolonged for another short 6 months, Nazi Germany would have had there own atom bomb.

Don't forget....the jet age started during WW2, and 'twas Nazi Germany at the forefront of that technology...

Rockets...Wernher von Braun...V1 and V2 and Messershmidt Komets

The thing is...Tesla is giving that technology away...instead of Russian and American forces lying and cheating to get as many Nazi engineers and scientists as they can...Wernher von Braun and Nasa and the trip to the moon...

Elon Musk has barely a decade under his belt as an automotive exec.

Bob Lutz...his whole career is based on the fact that he is an automobile exec. And he is 80 years old.

One could not argue the "what if" side of things if Elon will survive as long as Bob Lutz survived in the jungle that is the automobile industry...

But...Paypal is nothing to laugh at...

Bob Lutz has NEVER made a product as world changing as Paypal has changed the world in how humans do business...

Today...in the automotive world...its nearly impossible to string out hit after hit after hit with many types of cars...and Bob Lutz is a testament to how great he was and how difficult it is...

Like you said about how he turned BMW around...

But...like I said...the Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, Pontiac Solstice were all duds...and yes...he did recognize that Pontiac was going down fast!

But...after dabbling in the computer world and getting bored, Elon moved into the car world, and his mark on it is the Tesla Model S....not too bad for a rookie...

However, this dick measurement contest was about business acumen initially...

PAYPAL ...and it stops right there!

Edited July 9, 2016 by oldshurst442

surreal1272 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant.

Edited July 9, 2016 by surreal1272

hyperv6 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant.

No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany.

Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war.

In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills.

If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration.

Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today.

hyperv6 · July 9, 2016

But the problem is Hyper....

Nazi Germany (Tesla)...

had so much advanced technology (Tesla) that the Allied powers scrambled to copy and steal during WW2 and after WW2...

The Atom bomb...Nazi Germany was working on one....some historians say had the war prolonged for another short 6 months, Nazi Germany would have had there own atom bomb.

Don't forget....the jet age started during WW2, and 'twas Nazi Germany at the forefront of that technology...

Rockets...Wernher von Braun...V1 and V2 and Messershmidt Komets

The thing is...Tesla is giving that technology away...instead of Russian and American forces lying and cheating to get as many Nazi engineers and scientists as they can...Wernher von Braun and Nasa and the trip to the moon...

Elon Musk has barely a decade under his belt as an automotive exec.

Bob Lutz...his whole career is based on the fact that he is an automobile exec. And he is 80 years old.

One could not argue the "what if" side of things if Elon will survive as long as Bob Lutz survived in the jungle that is the automobile industry...

But...Paypal is nothing to laugh at...

Bob Lutz has NEVER made a product as world changing as Paypal has changed the world in how humans do business...

Today...in the automotive world...its nearly impossible to string out hit after hit after hit with many types of cars...and Bob Lutz is a testament to how great he was and how difficult it is...

Like you said about how he turned BMW around...

But...like I said...the Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, Pontiac Solstice were all duds...and yes...he did recognize that Pontiac was going down fast!

But...after dabbling in the computer world and getting bored, Elon moved into the car world, and his mark on it is the Tesla Model S....not too bad for a rookie...

However, this dick measurement contest was about business acumen initially...

PAYPAL ...and it stops right there!

The thing you forget is the technology they are giving away is not of the nature that anyone wants it. What MFG has taken up their offer? Too many issues. For one they would be dependent of Tesla for some of their systems and also it is not really any better than what they already have. If anything it is behind what is coming from some of them.

Elon a decade and Lutz 80 years? Whats that got to do with anything. Has Elon made a profit yet on just selling cars?

As for the work of Lutz at Pontiac. The last models were just a Hail Mary as there just was so little time and money to do anything to save them. The truth is the models you named were not duds they were really amazing that they were produced at all under those conditions. Having been able to talk to Scott Settlmire of GM and Fred Simmons from Pontiac on the topic they really showed how these cars were done on so little money that most people would have never been able to get them out.

Note Bob also pumped a ton of what money they had left into the products GM got post bail out. While FCA was going with only mild refreshes and little in new product GM was already putting out new product with new platforms and engines. Mark Ruess and Lutz did GM a big help when they did not sit still when the bail out was coming up.

Pay Pal is great but it is not a car company.

The S model is fine and he proved a segment where you could sell a EV for $120K when no one else thought you could. Credit to him. But on the other hand he has not tried to sell a cheap car yet. Selling a low volume expensive car is like shooting fish in a barrel. Now sell one for $30-40K now that will be a challenge. And no his 3 will not be sold for $35K as he himself said the price would go up by production time. Also that is a gutted stripped down model. Once optioned up it will be at least $50K or more.

Was Lutz perfect by no means. He had his share of mistakes and his mouth got him in trouble many times and may have kept him from the top seat many places. But on the other hand he is the one who set the path for GM and how they work today.

I would recommend his books on his time at Chrysler and GM as they tell the good and the bad of his times there. Like he stated there were people there that were the problem and some that were not. His goal was to help get the people that were no the problem in place before he left.

Elon talks a good game. He has had success but also many failures too. He is a master of deflection and covers his mistakes well. In the auto field he has one major success and that is good but you are only as good as your next move. The X has not really played out and brought in the needed money or volume yet and the longer this is delayed it is not a help. The 3 is a good bet to be late too. If they rush things and something goes wrong there will be a big price to pay.

I in no way impart Elon is a failure in anyway. But he is walking a tight rope in the auto market and he has no net. He has put all his chip on one number where it could pay off big or it could fail miserably. Just a simple act of a company like Porsche or Benz putting out a better expensive sedan like the S could kill sales and his income.

What it comes down to is if you remove all the hype on Elon and Tesla the road only gets tougher from here on out. To say anything different is just plain ignorance of how the industry works.

surreal1272 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant.

No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany.

Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war.

In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills.

If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration.

Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today.

Hitler? Germany?

One and the same and completely off base in the manner that you using it. Sorry, I don't take the comparisons very lightly when it comes to Nazi Germany unless there is a direct comparison to be had. In the case of comparing Nazi Germany to Tesla, way off base and very short sighted IMO.

Oh and it has been proven that Germany had little more than paper planning when it came to the bomb claim. The fool who claimed they did ten years ago has been thoroughly debunked.

http://m.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/a-346293.html

That's all I'm going to say about it.

Edited July 9, 2016 by surreal1272

hyperv6 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant.

No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany.

Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war.

In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills.

If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration.

Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today.

Hitler? Germany?
One and the same and completely off base in the manner that you using it. Sorry, I don't take the comparisons very lightly when it comes to Nazi Germany unless there is a direct comparison to be had. In the case of comparing Nazi Germany to Tesla, way off base and very short sighted IMO.

Oh and it has been proven that Germany had little more than paper planning when it came to the bomb claim. The fool who claimed they did ten years ago has been thoroughly debunked.

http://m.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/a-346293.html

That's all I'm going to say about it.

Time to stop being overly sensitive of history. Much to be learned by it good and bad in many parts of our lives.

As for the story the key wording in the story states "If these theories were accurate, history would have to be rewritten"

The fact is there were many what if's in the war. If Hitler has not ignored the technology he had as much as he did things would have been much different. That is not a theory.

No matter if you like the example or not it illustrates the fact that you can hold an advantage on technology yet due to your size and mistakes still lose in the end. I am sure you get the point no matter if you like it or not!

Many times the true statement is bigger is better in cases like this

Imagine Tesla getting hit with some kind of major recall. You know the kind like GM had on the Cobalt and VW on the Diesels. That would put an end to Tesla right now. And don't be naive to say it could not happen. Just not enough company to absorb that kind of action.

surreal1272 · July 9, 2016

In WWII Germany walked into Eastern Europe because they proved they could. {Telsa}

In the end Hitler Shot himself in a bunker in Berlin as all the other countries converged on Berlin.

Even with all the most advanced tech and well trained troupes Germany just did not have the ability to vend off the rest of the world with their ability, reach and size. {The rest of the industry}

I think in time we will find PT Elon may have won the first battles but in the end will either be just another smaller player or swallowed up buy someone else.

You can toss pay pal out there all you like but in this segment it is about what have you done for me lately. GM was the greatest and largest MFG for decades but that means little today.

There have been many people in the auto industry that have come and gone. They have had their victories and their massive failures. Elon proved there is a segment for a expensive larger EV sedan when most did not believe it. Now that the secret is out the resources and the abilities of much larger companies will superseded his abilities.

Great people even like Henry Ford failed more than succeeded. His key to thriving was he stumbled upon the ability to make millions of cars cheaper and faster. If not for that he would have failed again like he did several times before. Also note if not for Edsel and the Flat head we may not have had Ford around today.

In the auto industry the long term success is difficult and few manage to make it with out more failures than more successes, The problems Elon faces he with Tesla is he needs each model to pay for the next. The X has slowed his progress with slow start up and being so late to market with such high development cost. As for the 3 he needs it out now and it may be 1-3 years before we see it. Start up is going to be expensive and will the money raised with the presale and the stock be enough? Not sure yet.

The auto industry is tough and much tougher than a dot com company. There are many more challenges and even if you get 100 things right one can kill a smaller company like this. The history of the auto industry is loaded with names of small failed automakers and many a larger Packard too.

Even Duesenburg built what is yet today considered the best car in the world yet they failed for the lack of money. Even today we have companies like Mitsubisihi and Isuzu failing while larger companies like FCA looking for a partner to prevent failure. Even companies like Ford and GM working together just to lower cost.

Will Elon survive with Tesla. He may. But lets just say it will not be as easy of a path as some believe. Just look at the autopilot issue. If he gets many court cases and even wins them over this it could drain the company of the money they need just to fight in court. The margin of error for them is slim.

Please do not mistake this as hate of Tesla or Elon but more repect it of just how difficult it is to be successful in the auto industry. Read your history and this will be proven.

I've read my history and to make any kind of comparison of Tesla to Hitler is just very careless and honestly, quite ignorant.

No it is not.it was more a comparison to Germany.

Germany in the war was more advanced than any of the Allied powers. They were first with the Jet, They had the lead on rockets and they were ahead on the bomb. Just as Tesla is in the lead on EV vehicles Germany was ahead in technology in the war.

In the end the Allies had something Germany did not have. More natural resources and more man power. While they lacked the advanced things in the war they were able to out build and catch up technically as the war went on because they were bigger and had more to fall back on. Most major automaker has more money and ability in their R&D than Tesla. Also the major automakers can afford to make cheaper models like the Bolt fully loaded and still not make money on them and survive. Telsa has to make a major profit on anything that rolls out the door or they will pay the price. They have not trucks, suv's and any ICE models to pay the bills.

If you know your history then you know what I am pointing out here. It is not about Hitler so much as it was about the size and advancement of Germany. They were ahead technically but in the end they still lost the war. Just a simple illustration.

Note too after Germany fell the Allies came in and fought for the things Germany had to offer them. We got the rockets and some advanced aero technology from them. It spurred the technical growth of America from the 50's to today.

Hitler? Germany?
One and the same and completely off base in the manner that you using it. Sorry, I don't take the comparisons very lightly when it comes to Nazi Germany unless there is a direct comparison to be had. In the case of comparing Nazi Germany to Tesla, way off base and very short sighted IMO.

Oh and it has been proven that Germany had little more than paper planning when it came to the bomb claim. The fool who claimed they did ten years ago has been thoroughly debunked.http://m.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/a-346293.html

That's all I'm going to say about it.

Time to stop being overly sensitive of history. Much to be learned by it good and bad in many parts of our lives.

As for the story the key wording in the story states "If these theories were accurate, history would have to be rewritten"

The fact is there were many what if's in the war. If Hitler has not ignored the technology he had as much as he did things would have been much different. That is not a theory.

No matter if you like the example or not it illustrates the fact that you can hold an advantage on technology yet due to your size and mistakes still lose in the end. I am sure you get the point no matter if you like it or not!

Many times the true statement is bigger is better in cases like this

Imagine Tesla getting hit with some kind of major recall. You know the kind like GM had on the Cobalt and VW on the Diesels. That would put an end to Tesla right now. And don't be naive to say it could not happen. Just not enough company to absorb that kind of action.

It has not one damn thing to do with being "overly sensitive". It was a completely of touch and out of context comparison to begin with. It's that simple.

The rest of your post is just trying to put words into my mouth which doesn't even merit a response.

hyperv6 · July 9, 2016

If you don't like it skip it then. I have no need to put words in your mouth?

Tesla is not worth arguing about.

FAPTurbo · July 12, 2016

hyperv6 · July 12, 2016

FYI I was not the negative here.

I may disagree in our debate but I never took it personal.

Edited July 12, 2016 by hyperv6

hyperv6 · July 12, 2016

Anyone notice Elon right before the story dropped about another investigation announce he has a new plan now!

Elon has been a master of controlling news on the web with his well dropped stories and announcements. But you have to wonder how long can he get away with that.

I note now that he has plans for an affordable car and an even more affordable car. Gee I though that was what the 3 was? So is my expectation the 3 when loaded up with the most common options coming in at $50K realistic?

balthazar · July 12, 2016

I believe the numbers I saw was the 3 would have to move at between $50-55K to break even/ turn a small profit.
The $35K claim is already out the window, IMO

ccap41 · July 12, 2016

Anyone notice Elon right before the story dropped about another investigation announce he has a new plan now!

Elon has been a master of controlling news on the web with his well dropped stories and announcements. But you have to wonder how long can he get away with that.

I note now that he has plans for an affordable car and an even more affordable car. Gee I though that was what the 3 was? So is my expectation the 3 when loaded up with the most common options coming in at $50K realistic?

I believe it was "part two" not a new plan.

ocnblu · July 13, 2016

More bad press. LOVE IT.

oldshurst442 · July 13, 2016

More bad press. LOVE IT.

Just an opinion that somebody holds....

No big deal really...

Just a good read. Something to think about...

American self-hatred aside...

From Road&Track.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a29944/leave-tesla-alone/

hyperv6 · July 13, 2016

I believe the numbers I saw was the 3 would have to move at between $50-55K to break even/ turn a small profit.

The $35K claim is already out the window, IMO

I had seen prediction of $50-60K as being the real world price. Even Musk said the $35K would not be a base by the time it reached production.

That is why I never counted it as a Bolt competitor from the start as the Bolt will be pretty much loaded at the $40K mark.

hyperv6 · July 13, 2016

Anyone notice Elon right before the story dropped about another investigation announce he has a new plan now!

Elon has been a master of controlling news on the web with his well dropped stories and announcements. But you have to wonder how long can he get away with that.

I note now that he has plans for an affordable car and an even more affordable car. Gee I though that was what the 3 was? So is my expectation the 3 when loaded up with the most common options coming in at $50K realistic?

I believe it was "part two" not a new plan.

I believe it was a new crisis and he needed a new deflection. He is already still having issues with the X and the doors along with Quality issues. Next he needs to get the 3 out and sort it with just barley the money to get it into production.

The late start and issues on the X have really hurt the 3 as it did not provide the seed money needed. Now they discounting a cheaper S to try to raise more money.

Musk would be more honest to call these plans dreams. Living from hand to mouth is a tough way to build a car company. You have even small set backs like door issues and late introductions and it hurts the whole company. This is why the other companies have an advantage. They can survive set backs and delays or even no profits when the ICE models are paying the bills.

hyperv6 · July 15, 2016

Well with all the negative news on Tesla this wheel it is time for Musk to have some new major comment or idea.

The dropping of the Resale guarantee is telling of a company that is low on funds.

The public statement of changing the autopilot name by CR is blistering to a guy that embraced them so.

The announcement of another discounted car reeks of more fund raising at the cost of lower profits.

The deliveries still being down is not also helping.

Elons had a tough week and I expect he will see more as there is more going on that he has little control over.

Hmm it might be a good time to say he will shoot people to Mars in a Tube or something.

surreal1272 · July 15, 2016

More bad press. LOVE IT.

If you love bad press on American car company, then do not ever call yourself a car fan.

ocnblu · July 15, 2016

I am a car fan.

hyperv6 · July 15, 2016

I am a car fan.

The real issue here is that Musk has built up the EV expectations to such a great level with some of the mindless public that a major failure at Tesla will be felt by all automakers in their EV products. They would associate the failure with all EV products fairly or not.

Like it or not the EV has to become of the mix for the future. While GM would continue to build better and better EV products the failure of Tesla would make their task even more difficult.

I am anything but a Musk fan but I do not want to see them totally crash and burn. If anything I would like to see them go to someone else that would be able to run them and fund them in the fashion they need to be funded.

FordCosworth · July 15, 2016

I am a car fan.

Hey same here!

surreal1272 · July 15, 2016

I am a car fan.

No. You're really not when you wish for the demise of an American car company.

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NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Fatal Crash With Tesla's Autopilot

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