2016 Buick Envision Test Drive!

[smk4565]

 

 

 

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans. So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does.

Then there's your problem right there. You should care where the profits are going because profits kept here means profits that are spent here. It's a real simple concept actually and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Oh and thanks for proving your hypocrisy on the countries of origin remark. That literally makes no damn sense.

Who says they have to spend the profits here? Companies outsource and move things overseas all the time to save money, and thus make higher profits. Ford has made good profits lately, what did they do? They spent $1.6 Billion to build a factory in Mexico and create 2,800 jobs in Mexico. So those F150 profits are going straight to Mexico. They could have invested those dollars in a new factory in Michigan or Indiana, but they didn't.

FCA has turned profit the last couple years, did they invest it in the USA? No, they discontinued the 200 and Dart, laid off workers in those factories, and the Compass/Patriot are to be replaced by a single model, built in a new factory in Mexico.

I also found a story form December 2014 stating that GM would invest $3.6 billion to double their production capacity in Mexico and create 5,600 new jobs in Mexico.

This idea that you buy an American brand car and the money gets invested back into America is a joke. Buying a Buick Envision is supporting job growth in China and Mexico, they are stealing our jobs, they are stealing our money, and I am not voting for Trump either. I do support free trade between all these countries, because the consumer always has the choice to buy what they want to buy. And I wouldn't buy a car from China, and I won't buy one from Mexico.

Dude you have to stop. Money kept here, not overseas, is more likely to be spent here. Those profits go to folks here eventually, not overseas. It's that damn simple. That is all because you have no argument here.

One last thing. You made my point by bringing up FCA and why it was always a bad deal. It's an Italian owner company so course, DUH, the money goes to Italy. Oh and F150s have and always will be made in Michigan.

Class dismissed.

 

F150 is made in the USA because they have high margins on them.   High margin products are the last to leave.  Low margin products like sedans are being shipped to Mexico, factories in the USA closing down.   GM and Ford aren't building new factories here, or hiring more workers here, that stuff is getting sent away where land and labor rates are cheaper.

 

If you buy Nabisco cookies and Oreos that are also now made in Mexico (which should be shipped to the USA in the trunks of Ford Fusions to save on transportation costs) you are supporting Mexican jobs.  Nabisco didn't spend their profits on the 600 people in Chicago that lost their jobs.

 

That is the issue here, the money isn't KEPT in the USA, these companies, whether it be cars, cookies, shoes or clothing sell products made outside of the USA buy people making $5 an hour so that the executives in the USA can pad their bonus, and the stock holders can get paid a dividend.  And the more jobs they ship over seas, the more profit they make.

 

If someone drives a Buick Envision and it is their favorite car in the world, then they should buy it because they like the car.  They shouldn't buy any GM or Ford car thinking that it will help the American economy any more than buying a Toyota will help the American economy.

[smk4565]

I live in Pittsburgh, southeast of the city (where I don't live) there are towns that relied heavily on steel mills until the 80s, that of course are closed and gone now.   But there is lots of land out there, that has access to rivers and railroads, and isn't far from the PA turnpike either.   This would be an ideal place to build cars with easy ways to transport them.  It would have been nice if GM built a $3 billion factory and hired 5,000 workers in Pittsburgh, especially with all the engineers that Carnegie Mellon pumps out, but yet they built that factory in Mexico.  Zero dollars for my home town, $3.6 billion for Mexico.  

Edited July 2, 2016 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Quote I saw WRT the S_Class was "nearly every 2nd s-class goes to China". THat leads me to believe on the order of 45%, not 33%, but the piece didn't give actual percentages. Don't see why a conscious writer would call 33% "nearly every other one'.

 

- - - - - 

Boo-hoo for your town. My town lost an auto assembly plant too, and a 2nd one never actually produced cars before getting sold for a non-automotive manufacturer. Yet, life goes on.

 

General Motors doesn't owe any locality anything permanently. That said, GM did operate a metal fabricating plant in Pittsburgh for 58 years, so "your town' actually got plenty of dollars out of GM.

[smk4565]

I know GM doesn't owe anything to my town or any other.  But that is also why people shouldn't buy a GM product thinking that the profits will be reinvested into the USA or their local town.

 

Here is the Daimler annual report that states 1/3rd of S-class were sold in China.  107,336 S-class sold worldwide in 2015.

https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/nachrichten/kapitalmarktmeldungen/daimler-ir-release-en-20160108.pdf

[surreal1272]

Failure to understand a world economy is SMKs fault even when he is trying to deflect from the fact that his favorite brand does the same damn thing.

I know GM doesn't owe anything to my town or any other.  But that is also why people shouldn't buy a GM product thinking that the profits will be reinvested into the USA or their local town.

 

Here is the Daimler annual report that states 1/3rd of S-class were sold in China.  107,336 S-class sold worldwide in 2015.

https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/nachrichten/kapitalmarktmeldungen/daimler-ir-release-en-20160108.pdf

So what? That is stil a high percentage regardless and is a forebear to the fact that China will every rally be producing those as well.

[balthazar]

people shouldn't buy a GM product thinking that the profits will be reinvested into the USA

https://media.giphy.com/media/LnKa2WLkd6eAM/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

 

General Motors is incorporated in the United States, It's an American company. It invests billions upon billions in this country, pays taxes in this country, pays utility costs in this country, pays construction & maintenance costs in this country, pays vendors & suppliers in this country, pays dividends on it's stock to {primarily} U.S. stockholders, pays untold amounts in pensions to U.S. ex-workers…. who believes GM doesn't invest 1 dollar into the U.S. but a delusional fool?

 

OF COURSE GM reinvests money into this country, more than any foreign brand ever does or will.

Someone buys a GM vehicle assembled in China, you are supporting all of the above. 

 

- - - - - 

As for "their local town" ~ there are 19,500 plus incorporated towns in the U.S.

No; no one should be expecting a GM plant in every one NOR in ANY random one.

FFS.

[surreal1272]

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans. So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does.

Then there's your problem right there. You should care where the profits are going because profits kept here means profits that are spent here. It's a real simple concept actually and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Oh and thanks for proving your hypocrisy on the countries of origin remark. That literally makes no damn sense.

Who says they have to spend the profits here? Companies outsource and move things overseas all the time to save money, and thus make higher profits. Ford has made good profits lately, what did they do? They spent $1.6 Billion to build a factory in Mexico and create 2,800 jobs in Mexico. So those F150 profits are going straight to Mexico. They could have invested those dollars in a new factory in Michigan or Indiana, but they didn't.

FCA has turned profit the last couple years, did they invest it in the USA? No, they discontinued the 200 and Dart, laid off workers in those factories, and the Compass/Patriot are to be replaced by a single model, built in a new factory in Mexico.

I also found a story form December 2014 stating that GM would invest $3.6 billion to double their production capacity in Mexico and create 5,600 new jobs in Mexico.

This idea that you buy an American brand car and the money gets invested back into America is a joke. Buying a Buick Envision is supporting job growth in China and Mexico, they are stealing our jobs, they are stealing our money, and I am not voting for Trump either. I do support free trade between all these countries, because the consumer always has the choice to buy what they want to buy. And I wouldn't buy a car from China, and I won't buy one from Mexico.

Dude you have to stop. Money kept here, not overseas, is more likely to be spent here. Those profits go to folks here eventually, not overseas. It's that damn simple. That is all because you have no argument here.

One last thing. You made my point by bringing up FCA and why it was always a bad deal. It's an Italian owner company so course, DUH, the money goes to Italy. Oh and F150s have and always will be made in Michigan.

Class dismissed.

F150 is made in the USA because they have high margins on them. High margin products are the last to leave. Low margin products like sedans are being shipped to Mexico, factories in the USA closing down. GM and Ford aren't building new factories here, or hiring more workers here, that stuff is getting sent away where land and labor rates are cheaper.

If you buy Nabisco cookies and Oreos that are also now made in Mexico (which should be shipped to the USA in the trunks of Ford Fusions to save on transportation costs) you are supporting Mexican jobs. Nabisco didn't spend their profits on the 600 people in Chicago that lost their jobs.

That is the issue here, the money isn't KEPT in the USA, these companies, whether it be cars, cookies, shoes or clothing sell products made outside of the USA buy people making $5 an hour so that the executives in the USA can pad their bonus, and the stock holders can get paid a dividend. And the more jobs they ship over seas, the more profit they make.

If someone drives a Buick Envision and it is their favorite car in the world, then they should buy it because they like the car. They shouldn't buy any GM or Ford car thinking that it will help the American economy any more than buying a Toyota will help the American economy.

Admit your mistake for once in your life. You just said on one post that the F150 was produced in Mexico when it has never been made anywhere outside of Michigan or Indiana. Now you're just bad moving, once again, to prove a point that only you give a crap about.

Again, your delusion and obvious bitterness towards GM has clouded you from the fact that GM has invested plenty in this country while recognizing, just like Daimler, that they have to expand production of certain vehicles to other countries. Your hypocrisy on that simple fact is astounding.

Edited July 2, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

You can literally Google "GM plant investments" and see one plant after another getting more money for their plants.

Translation, you are wrong SMK.

[surreal1272]

I live in Pittsburgh, southeast of the city (where I don't live) there are towns that relied heavily on steel mills until the 80s, that of course are closed and gone now.   But there is lots of land out there, that has access to rivers and railroads, and isn't far from the PA turnpike either.   This would be an ideal place to build cars with easy ways to transport them.  It would have been nice if GM built a $3 billion factory and hired 5,000 workers in Pittsburgh, especially with all the engineers that Carnegie Mellon pumps out, but yet they built that factory in Mexico.  Zero dollars for my home town, $3.6 billion for Mexico.

So you're going to fault only GM for doing what almost every company did in Pittsburgh in the 80s, which was bail out of town to cheaper lands?

[surreal1272]

Quote I saw WRT the S_Class was "nearly every 2nd s-class goes to China". THat leads me to believe on the order of 45%, not 33%, but the piece didn't give actual percentages. Don't see why a conscious writer would call 33% "nearly every other one'.

- - - - -

Boo-hoo for your town. My town lost an auto assembly plant too, and a 2nd one never actually produced cars before getting sold for a non-automotive manufacturer. Yet, life goes on.

General Motors doesn't owe any locality anything permanently. That said, GM did operate a metal fabricating plant in Pittsburgh for 58 years, so "your town' actually got plenty of dollars out of GM.

Well said. What he fails to also see is that what did Pittsburgh do to try and get that GM steel plant that SMK mentions? The answer here is nothing.

Edited July 2, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

Also, what is ignored by SMK is the role unions played in killing the steel industry in Pittsburgh.  

 

Of course, that has to be  s fault too.

[surreal1272]

The real irony in SMK going after FCA for what they've been doing to Chrysler/Jeep is that what FCA is doing to wreck is nothing compared to what Daimler did to them a decade ago. Where was their investment in America then?

[surreal1272]

The real irony in SMK going after FCA for what they've been doing to Chrysler/Jeep is that what FCA is doing to wreck is nothing compared to what Daimler did to them a decade ago. Where was their investment in America then?

*wreck Chrysler...

[smk4565]

I never said the F150 was made in Mexico.  I said Ford is building a plant in Mexico to build small cars there, and ship them back to the USA.  The margins are good on trucks and crossovers, they will be the last to leave.  But it would't surprise me if over time, the Detroit 3 move more and more factories to Mexico to get the cheap labor.  

 

And yes I know GM invests money into the USA, obviously they pay a lot of workers here, buy a lot of products and employe a lot of people.  But other auto companies do the same.  Toyota supports American suppliers and pays American workers also.

 

As far as taxes paid goes, in 2015 GM got a tax credit of $1,897,000.  Not only did they not pay any taxes, they took yet another government hand out.

 

The difference here is I don't believe where the company head quarters is really matters.  All these companies operate globally and distribute money globally.  Where the head quarters is doesn't mean that is where the profits all end up.  And I don't pick cars based on where the profits end up.  I wouldn't care if my Mercedes was made in Alabama or Stuttgart, and I don't care what country the profits go to.  All I care is that they keep building good cars.

[surreal1272]

I never said the F150 was made in Mexico.  I said Ford is building a plant in Mexico to build small cars there, and ship them back to the USA.  The margins are good on trucks and crossovers, they will be the last to leave.  But it would't surprise me if over time, the Detroit 3 move more and more factories to Mexico to get the cheap labor.  

 

And yes I know GM invests money into the USA, obviously they pay a lot of workers here, buy a lot of products and employe a lot of people.  But other auto companies do the same.  Toyota supports American suppliers and pays American workers also.

 

As far as taxes paid goes, in 2015 GM got a tax credit of $1,897,000.  Not only did they not pay any taxes, they took yet another government hand out.

 

The difference here is I don't believe where the company head quarters is really matters.  All these companies operate globally and distribute money globally.  Where the head quarters is doesn't mean that is where the profits all end up.  And I don't pick cars based on where the profits end up.  I wouldn't care if my Mercedes was made in Alabama or Stuttgart, and I don't care what country the profits go to.  All I care is that they keep building good cars.

And I quote,

" Ford has made good profits lately, what did they do? They spent $1.6 Billion to build a factory in Mexico and create 2,800 jobs in Mexico. So those F150 profits are going straight to Mexico. They could have invested those dollars in a new factory in Michigan or Indiana, but they didn't."

You certainly implied as much and even if you didn't you are still way off base because you literally are ignoring the billions they have and continue to invest in the US.

Again, profits always go to the home team. Where they distribute it out from there is of no consequence since that is what ALL manufacturers do.

I won't oblige the rest of your post because it also means nothing and you have completely sidestepped your favorite company's role in destroying an American brand while railing against the new owners who have at least invested in the damn product, as misguided as it has been. Daimler did exactly jack $h! for Chrysler other than let it wither and damn near die.

[surreal1272]

And it's simply awesome that a luxury car maker can pay some Alabama employees over $40 less an hour to put together the same damn cars as their German counterparts. BMW is just as guilty of it.

[surreal1272]

Anyway, this is getting away from the topic which is the Envision.

Carry on folks.

[balthazar]

As far as taxes paid goes, in 2015 GM got a tax credit of $1,897,000.  Not only did they not pay any taxes, they took yet another government hand out.

General Motors in 2015 got a $1.9B tax credit due to losses in EUROPE.

They also PAID $1B in income taxes, not "zero".

In 2015, General Motors saw a tax credit of of $1.9 billion, even though its earnings before taxes hit $7.7 billion.  Uncle Sam got his due, as the company reported a U.S. federal income tax expense of more than $1 billion. Yet the company's global tax bill was a credit thanks mostly to a tax break connected with General Motors Europe.

 

- - - - - 

The difference here is I don't believe where the company head quarters is really matters.  Where the head quarters is doesn't mean that is where the profits all end up.  And I don't pick cars based on where the profits end up.  I wouldn't care if my Mercedes was made in Alabama or Stuttgart, and I don't care what country the profits go to.

Well, that's YOU. Others are not quite so self-centered and do look at the bigger picture.

Edited July 2, 2016 by balthazar

[daves87rs]

Okay, I'm not one to get too involved here...but you folks are way off on different planes here-one side wall street, and the other side industry....(and we're not even taking about the Envision anymore either...)

 

 

Either way, you're both WRONG.

 

 

It's about the cars, and global demand. The Envision is here because it is being TESTED (from the Chinese market). I have a feeling it will do great here, and there are already plans to build it here if it is successful. This is the MAIN point. Nothing else matters...

 

 

*runs from the rain of hate I am going to get for sticking my nose/opinion is this...*

Edited July 3, 2016 by daves87rs

[smk4565]

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover.  I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle.  Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

[surreal1272]

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover. I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle. Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

The XT5 is only six inches longer and starts at $4K more. That is not "basically the same price". It's no different than the "less than different from each other" C Class and CLA ( and no I am not talking about price).

Edited July 3, 2016 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover.  I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle.  Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

Nope it is properly priced, $8300+ cheaper than the GLC300 4matic with more features and function and better materials than the MB. This is a way better auto all the way around then MB is currently building and selling with more HP and Torque to boot.

 

If you feel that about the Envision and XT5, then you have to reevaluate the MB CUV lineup that has the same problem and lower quality materials at this point as the Envision has surpassed the build quality of the MB.

[Suaviloquent]

Alright, DFelt, I agree with many things here, but HP and TQ are irrelevant because the GLC is faster than the Envision...it actually is. That can be derived from all the objective measurements done by car mags let alone real people.'

 

And the better materials front is kind of a half-truth. For the price...I'd agree nice interior, fake wood nonetheless, I like shiny wood, and the fake stuff looks quite good.

 

But the GLC has real wood trim, and I've been in both...NOT as long as you have been, but I've tried to push and prod a lot of their car too. The GLC does oost more. A lot more.

 

But I don't think they are truly direct competitors, Buick on their site compare to Auid Q5 (the current gen one), Acura RDX and Lincoln MKC. With those, I agree, because they all come FWD on the base trims, and AWD gets added.

 

I agree that the MB is pricy. But you get the prestige of the brand...for those who want it, and there's only one less cubic foot of cargo volume than the Buick, and well, rear-wheel drive...though the GKN AWD system is really good.

 

For a lease only kind of deal...again, I would not get the Mercedes, BUT I would never get a Chinese Buick, not because it isn't built well or some lame excuse. I just have a choice to make, and I'd like an American or Canadian worker to build the car I would own, and also it be an domestically engineered car.

[smk4565]

 

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover. I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle. Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

The XT5 is only six inches longer and starts at $4K more. That is not "basically the same price". It's no different than the "less than different from each other" C Class and CLA ( and no I am not talking about price).

 

For 2016 the Envision starts over $42,000, I know for 2017 the Envision starts at $34,990, but that is also for a 197 hp 4 cylinder.   Eventually there will be a Cadillac XT3, if they price it $5k under the XT5 it will cost less than an Envision.   I still think pricing is a little ambitious on the Envision.    The Acadia for example is larger and cheaper, and GMC is supposed to be on par with Buick.

[smk4565]

 

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover.  I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle.  Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

Nope it is properly priced, $8300+ cheaper than the GLC300 4matic with more features and function and better materials than the MB. This is a way better auto all the way around then MB is currently building and selling with more HP and Torque to boot.

 

If you feel that about the Envision and XT5, then you have to reevaluate the MB CUV lineup that has the same problem and lower quality materials at this point as the Envision has surpassed the build quality of the MB.

 

Let me know when Buick puts a 500 hp V8 in the Envision to compete with what M-B is doing.

[balthazar]

…because you ALREADY KNOW that mercedes puts a 241 HP 4-cyl in the GLC to compete with what the (252 HP) Buick Envision is doing, right?

[surreal1272]

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover.  I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle.  Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

Nope it is properly priced, $8300+ cheaper than the GLC300 4matic with more features and function and better materials than the MB. This is a way better auto all the way around then MB is currently building and selling with more HP and Torque to boot.

 

If you feel that about the Envision and XT5, then you have to reevaluate the MB CUV lineup that has the same problem and lower quality materials at this point as the Envision has surpassed the build quality of the MB.

Let me know when Buick puts a 500 hp V8 in the Envision to compete with what M-B is doing.

You mean the 469 HP GLC that isn't out yet?

Buick and GM is not concerned with a 469HP CUV that 300 people a year will buy.

[daves87rs]

 

The Envision will sell because it is a crossover. I think they priced it a bit high, because it is basically priced like an XT5, and the XT5 is a mid-size vehicle. Buick could actually add a 4th crossover between Envision and Enclave, but the Envision is priced almost at Enclave levels now, so they'd have to reevaluate the price tiers of their crossovers.

The XT5 is only six inches longer and starts at $4K more. That is not "basically the same price". It's no different than the "less than different from each other" C Class and CLA ( and no I am not talking about price).

 

 

 

+1

 

If it were a chevy, I'd say yes. It's pretty much what a buick should cost...

[balthazar]

It doesn't (usually) matter if a Buick & Cadillac model in the same segment are somewhat close in price- they're 2 distinct brands.

[Guest C. Haines]

Interesting that Consumer Reports is not anywhere as enthusiastic as you seem to be. Their tests indicate wind noise at 50 MPH, sluggish steering, brakes that are soft, rough edges on the bottom of the plastic dash, limited headroom for backseat passengers with the moon roof installed, air vents located below the dashboard which are not able to cool above your elbows , etc., etc.. I'm a Buick owner and I want the brand to succeed but it appears that this model requires more work before it will be ready for prime time. I'm waiting to buy the 2017 LaCrosse and I certainly hope Buick has done a better job with that new model or I will have to look elsewhere.

[Suaviloquent]

…because you ALREADY KNOW that mercedes puts a 241 HP 4-cyl in the GLC to compete with what the (252 HP) Buick Envision is doing, right?

 

The GLC is faster in probably every metric than the Buick, and it definitely does handle better too.

 

Hp is irrelevant, so is torque.

 

And the Mercedes 9-Speed tranny is very well sorted out - the only of it is kind with that many speeds that is tuned right.

[balthazar]

HP cannot be "irrelevant' because it constantly gets quoted in even this thread, as vastly significant.

[G. David Felt]

Interesting that Consumer Reports is not anywhere as enthusiastic as you seem to be. Their tests indicate wind noise at 50 MPH, sluggish steering, brakes that are soft, rough edges on the bottom of the plastic dash, limited headroom for backseat passengers with the moon roof installed, air vents located below the dashboard which are not able to cool above your elbows , etc., etc.. I'm a Buick owner and I want the brand to succeed but it appears that this model requires more work before it will be ready for prime time. I'm waiting to buy the 2017 LaCrosse and I certainly hope Buick has done a better job with that new model or I will have to look elsewhere.

And Consumer reports is an Asian Loving can do no wrong group of Idiots. At 6'6" tall, they clearly have not drank enough of their Asian Koolaid to print that there is no head room in the back seat of this auto. They are Idiots. Enough said about moronic Consumer Reports that hates all things American even if it is built in China by an American company.

 

Check it out for yourself before believing moronic Consumer reports.

[Suaviloquent]

^{That guy specifically who talked about the Envision himself owns a Durango.}

 

^{Look...I know what the Buick is - it's based loosely on the new Delta, while the GLC is the same as the C-Class.}

 

^{I have a HARD time believing the Envisions is "overall" a far superior Auto.}

 

^{It is NOT. It is for your purposes - a simple commuting vehicle with practicality and some luxo, with marginally more room, because it has FWD packaging.}

 

^{Too many people have cited the C-Class as the best luxo interior for it's class, and the GLC gets the same interior. So, no I don't think the Buick interior is better, I've been in both, the fake wood aside in the Buick.... a loaded GLC for sure gets more metallic trim, and has metal switchgear.and has real wood trim. that's part of being luxo.} 

 

^{At 8 grand more, throw aside reliability - it depends on how long ownership will be - 4 grand is easily forgiven by me, because the GLC is RWD based. That's what I think. You can disagree, but I'll NEVER consider any Chinese car from Buick, Cadillac, or any luxury brand.}

 

^{And I said before, the Envisions is a poor value - but it is about time that GM hungered for profit. And besides, if the Envision is better than a GLC, then the XT5 looks really dumb.}

[G. David Felt]

Yea test drove an XT5 and very nice but surprised by a few little things including the sharp plastic edge on the bottom of the door area that scrapes the back of the calfs on normal people height. For someone long legged like me at 6'6" tall, no problem, but the wife at 5'8" tall and my mom both scraped the back of their legs. Was pretty shocked that GM would have such a sharp plastic edge on the XT5.

[daves87rs]

^{That guy specifically who talked about the Envision himself owns a Durango.}

 

^{Look...I know what the Buick is - it's based loosely on the new Delta, while the GLC is the same as the C-Class.}

 

^{I have a HARD time believing the Envisions is "overall" a far superior Auto.}

 

^{It is NOT. It is for your purposes - a simple commuting vehicle with practicality and some luxo, with marginally more room, because it has FWD packaging.}

 

^{Too many people have cited the C-Class as the best luxo interior for it's class, and the GLC gets the same interior. So, no I don't think the Buick interior is better, I've been in both, the fake wood aside in the Buick.... a loaded GLC for sure gets more metallic trim, and has metal switchgear.and has real wood trim. that's part of being luxo.} 

 

^{At 8 grand more, throw aside reliability - it depends on how long ownership will be - 4 grand is easily forgiven by me, because the GLC is RWD based. That's what I think. You can disagree, but I'll NEVER consider any Chinese car from Buick, Cadillac, or any luxury brand.}

 

^{And I said before, the Envisions is a poor value - but it is about time that GM hungered for profit. And besides, if the Envision is better than a GLC, then the XT5 looks really dumb.}

 

 

Wonder if GM might be too hungry...still waiting to see how the nearly 30k hatches are going to do. (keeping in mind most will be loaded LT or Premier trims) Being built in mexico, and with the Focus hatch still starting under 20k-should be interesting. While I love the car, 26-30 for a compact hatch?

 

While I'm not thrilled about the chinese part of the Envision, if it comes out successful it will US built pretty quick. I think Buick needs to be careful here....be bang for buck....and be careful not to jump to caddy price wise....

 

If they feel they need to charge a little more, give folks a reason and something different, like a Grand Sport model or something.....

[oldshurst442]

 

^{That guy specifically who talked about the Envision himself owns a Durango.}

 

^{Look...I know what the Buick is - it's based loosely on the new Delta, while the GLC is the same as the C-Class.}

 

^{I have a HARD time believing the Envisions is "overall" a far superior Auto.}

 

^{It is NOT. It is for your purposes - a simple commuting vehicle with practicality and some luxo, with marginally more room, because it has FWD packaging.}

 

^{Too many people have cited the C-Class as the best luxo interior for it's class, and the GLC gets the same interior. So, no I don't think the Buick interior is better, I've been in both, the fake wood aside in the Buick.... a loaded GLC for sure gets more metallic trim, and has metal switchgear.and has real wood trim. that's part of being luxo.} 

 

^{At 8 grand more, throw aside reliability - it depends on how long ownership will be - 4 grand is easily forgiven by me, because the GLC is RWD based. That's what I think. You can disagree, but I'll NEVER consider any Chinese car from Buick, Cadillac, or any luxury brand.}

 

^{And I said before, the Envisions is a poor value - but it is about time that GM hungered for profit. And besides, if the Envision is better than a GLC, then the XT5 looks really dumb.}

 

 

Wonder if GM might be too hungry...still waiting to see how the nearly 30k hatches are going to do. (keeping in mind most will be loaded LT or Premier trims) Being built in mexico, and with the Focus hatch still starting under 20k-should be interesting. While I love the car, 26-30 for a compact hatch?

 

While I'm not thrilled about the chinese part of the Envision, if it comes out successful it will US built pretty quick. I think Buick needs to be careful here....be bang for buck....and be careful not to jump to caddy price wise....

 

If they feel they need to charge a little more, give folks a reason and something different, like a Grand Sport model or something.....

 

 

This aint no different than the German built Buick Regal the first year the Regal was out...(in reference to the Chinese built Buick Envision)

Tooling needs to be made in North American factories...

And correct me if Im wrong...originally the Envision was not supposed to be sold in North America.

 

I personally dont have a problem with a Chinese built Envision.

 

Its all this "Toyota and Honda are more American than Ford/GM/Chrysler" bullshyte because they manufacture some cars here that has phoqued up the mentality and made us schizophrenic about this sorta thing.

[daves87rs]

You would be right....the Envision was never planned here. But then SUV/CUVs made a comeback as better gas mileage and lower gas prices......

 

 

And where it built depends on what it is. I expect the lower margin compacts to head to Mexico....that is a no brainer.

 

I do expect the money makers to be built here though...and not other places. (In most cases)

 

In this case, if the Envision does well, it it be built stateside anyways.....

[oldshurst442]

Thanx Dave. For answering my inquiry.

 

Manufacturing jobs NEED to return to North America.

That much I do agree with.

 

Honda or Toyota if not for GM or Ford.

 

But it is a global economy.

Save for Japan....

Where Toyotas were once built in Asia somewhere, GM through Daewoo has taken over and where GM once built home grown Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles now Honda and Toyota build their cars on our soil....

It kinda equals out...

 

Remember...the Strong Arm of the GLOBAL American conglomerate has wiped out many local home grown foreign companies.

Tit for tat...

 

Ford of Europe...is still an American company.

Many Euros think that Ford of Europe is indeed European. Many dont think so.

 

Many Germans think that Opel is German....we think Opel is American...many Americans have no clue what an Opel is...

 

 

Sound familiar?