2016 Buick Envision Test Drive!

[G. David Felt]

G. David Felt
Staff Writer Alternative Energy - www.CheersandGears.com

 

2016 Buick Envision Test Drive!

 

 

June 23^rd 2016 started off like most days, up at 4am, in the shower, on the 4:48am 511 bus into Seattle, breakfast at my desk while reviewing email. Work focused and getting things done. A little over 3 hours later I get a call from my local Buick GMC dealership that the Buick Envisions they got in last week are all ready and on the lot for people to come see, test drive, etc. Text message to my sister who has a 2002 Mazda 6 that she is ready to retire that the Buick dealership had the Envision in stock, equipped the way she wanted it and we could test drive it.

 

Her desire is a mid-size to compact CUV with AWD, heated steering wheel, zone control for temp, auto lift gate in back, ability to connect her phone via Bluetooth minimum that she can use for work as she is a Hospice in home nurse and for getting away to the mountains for skiing. Her choices of auto’s to consider is the Honda CR-V, Toyota Rav4, Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, Cadillac SRX, Lexus RX 350 and she was willing to look at the Buick Envision.

 

Being the family auto nut, I have helped everyone in my family buy their auto’s even if it was not something I myself would buy. Test drove over the weekend the Honda and Toyota and they were crossed off her list as they did not have certain features she was wanting plus NOISY. Yup they are very noisy compared to other auto’s out there. She test drove then the Chevy and GMC to compare, GMC was too butch for her, she liked the Chevy but wanted to finish test driving her list. Next came the Cadillac SRX, except for the gas mileage it hit everything on her list including she loved the seat extensions that support long legged people as she is 6’2” tall average size for my family. Next was the Lexus, solid drive but again gas mileage was a concern for her as she lives in her car driving it all over daily. The inside front seat area was nice but she saw I was straddling the seats in front, rear seat room is lacking for tall people and no zone temp control or radio like much lesser models from other vendors. The amount of hard plastic inside was also very disappointing as the CUV is considered a luxury level but had a very Toyota look and feel to it. We headed to the Buick dealership to only be informed that the person who told me on the phone they had the Envision in stock was wrong and they had none. As it was a late long Saturday, we headed back to my house and she stopped at the Acura dealership to check out the RDX. That became a failure from the word go as the sales person when asked about things like heated steering wheel, heated and cooled seats, rear zone control, etc. he just said no no no no. So she wrote off even taking a test drive in the Acura.

 

So 6 days later after starting this quest of test driving and answering questions for my sister on CUVs we finally get to test drive the Buick Envision. We were both excited to see how this stacked up against all the other CUVs she had driven to date. The dealership had 3 Envisions in stock, two black models one with Premium and one with Premium II and a Red or what they call Saffron Red Premium in stock.

 

Editorial Note: For some reason my old Note 3 phone did not take as sharp as it had in the past photos and I did not realize this till this morning.

 

The dealer pulled the Premium II Black model into the showroom for us to check it out as it was a torrential downpour. Started off with the Engine bay, a nice clean package of the Turbo 4 SIDI motor. Nice that they have gone back to the Dual shocks to hold the engine hood up. Everything seemed to be clearly marked and easy to check for maintenance. I did notice and check out that all fuses are in the engine bay now on the right side behind the battery and to the right of it. Everything else was pretty simple to identify, check for fluid levels etc. I noticed that Buick built a double wall insulated hood.

 

 

Next was onto the inside. Navigation system was nice, easy to manage and use, all screen controls responded with no lag time and all tactile buttons were very nice and did what they were responsible for. Dash was lovely with the wood trim and everything else was either leather or soft rubber squishiness. It gave a solid feel to the touch and yet warm also, nothing being cold and hard. Cup holders were lit by LED lights for easier viewing especially at night. There was plenty of USB outlets with two on the back control section for temperature and still included the traditional cigarette lighter plug. The two vents for either heat or cooling worked very well and were whisper quiet.

The center storage system was nice with the two USB plugs, stereo jack plug and the SD card slot plus the Cigarette outlet. As you can see in the picture below, split armrest allows for you to still get into the storage even when the passenger is resting their arm on the rest. Over all flow was very good for the center stack. Doors had nice leather accents, everything was soft and tactile feel warm to the touch. Nothing hard about the interior for either the front or rear seating people. The rear seats were also the most comfortable out of all these CUV’s and the hardest least comfortable was the Lexus. Surprising that the Toyota Rav4 rear seats were more comfy than its luxury cousin.

Surprise of many was that with the seat in the front set for me, I got into the back and still had about 4 inches from my knees to the back of the front seat. Compared to all the other CUVs Lisa had test drove so far, the Envision has a huge amount of rear leg room. People will be very comfy for the long drive. You can even recline the rear seat, two settings and get even more comfortable. Also if you do have the rear door open and need to put down the rear seats so you can get something long into the auto, Buick made it very easy with chrome plated pull handles, one on each side of the rear storage area wall which auto puts down the seat, headrest etc. giving you a very large interior storage area. Access to the rear tire was easy and they had a large variety of storage areas under the rear storage floor for your use.

 

 

Driving started with a surprise, while very quiet from outside the car when running, you cannot hear the motor inside the car. Since the Sales rep pulled the car out of the dealership sales floor, my sister and I got into the car just outside for her to drive it. I sat in back. She started it up then the sales guy wanted to go over the auto with her. So she stopped and listened to him.

 

 

When we finally went there was a noticeable little rumble but that was it. She pulled down to the street to go and took off. This little Turbo 4 has plenty of get up and go power. Never strained and you can feel the Torque where it counts in the seat as you feel a gentle push back into the chair. We took it onto the freeway where the Envision showed no strain at getting up to highway speed and moving about. My sister loved the blind spot warning in the side mirrors, she also loved the rumble seat reminder when she got close to either side lines on the road. Exiting the freeway a few miles down the road impressed me with just how quiet Buicks Quiet package is, you do not have wind noise, nor do you have street wheel noise coming into the cabin. Overall a very quiet, serene ride. Next we hit the local neighborhood and she was able to try out the backup camera in a parallel parking attempt. This has always been a problem for my sister and yet on the first try, she got parked using the side mirrors which turn down in reverse and the backup camera. She felt the rear of the seat rumble as she got close to the car behind her. She ended up being about 8 inches away from the curb. Overall a success for her first attempt. With this done, she went to pull out and for the 3rd or 4th time felt the little rumble and finally asked what that was. The sales guy said what was what, but I realized it was the auto start / stop of the engine. Since we were only idling at the parallel parking spot and she had it in drive, the engine had turned off. It did this in the local heavy traffic also trying to save fuel,we then headed back to the dealership. One last final surprise was a mini cooper pulled out of a side street and clearly did not see us and yet the Buick Envision handled it with total confidence. The drive was a tranquil, serene success.

 

Wish I had taken more pictures, but you guys have for the most part seen everything from Buick that has been posted.

 

Hit me up with Questions as the 1hr time spent with the Envision left me with a WOW facture of just how great Buick has stepped up to offer a CUV that clearly trumps the competition.

[Suaviloquent]

Looks like a pretty nice auto. But that's not real wood trim man...and it SHINY as an SOB.... and I LOVE SHINY SHINY!!!

[G. David Felt]

So my sister loves this auto and took it for a second road drive. Very positive, so she asked me what competed against it from BMW or MB. I was not totally sure but looked up and emailed her the comparisons.

 

So fully loaded Envision AWD with Premium II package MSRP $50,240

 

Equal BMW X3 equipped the same is MSRP $55,520

 

Equal MB GLC 300 4matic equipped the same MSRP $58,577.

 

Both BMW and MB are in the mid 183 inches long like the Envision, but the rear seat room is much smaller than the Envision. Also both 4 banger motors are much less HP and Torque.

 

Over all Buick built a superior product than the Germans.

[Suaviloquent]

Hmmmm..

 

I would have said Lincoln MKC might also be worth checking out - but it sacrifices too much rear seat room, and you have to get the top trim to get the most luxo interior...

 

The Envision gets the really trick AWD system from GKN, so the handling - while being tuned for Buick comfort, rather outright sporty should be pretty good.

 

What kind of tires come stock on this auto?

[G. David Felt]

Hmmmm..

 

I would have said Lincoln MKC might also be worth checking out - but it sacrifices too much rear seat room, and you have to get the top trim to get the most luxo interior...

 

The Envision gets the really trick AWD system from GKN, so the handling - while being tuned for Buick comfort, rather outright sporty should be pretty good.

 

What kind of tires come stock on this auto?

They were Michelin tires.

[smk4565]

You could get a pretty well optioned GLC for $50k, you can't get everything, but you can still get $10k worth of options, if you avoid the $2900 sport package and $1900 air suspension you can get all the driver nannies and interior upgrades without getting too high in price.

 

Oddly enough the GLC300 has a better 0-60 time than the Envision or the 310 hp Cadillac XT5.  And it won't depreciate like those two.

[balthazar]

Unfortunately, the GLC has bottom-of-segment quality, and the maintenance & repair costs will eat up any resale advantage. It's really not a good competitor here.
 

[ocnblu]

   I like how Suave slipped the dfelt word "auto" in there.

[Suaviloquent]

   I like how Suave slipped the dfelt word "auto" in there.

 

AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTOATO AUTOPOTATO AUTOMATO

 

[furioustee]

Nice! I have to test drive it soon!

[smk4565]

Jaguar F-Pace is in this price range and has a 340 hp V6. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Very nice. I hope, in fact, that the next Enclave takes some of this styling. It is a gorgeous CUV.. so much better looking than what is coming from Lincoln and Acura

[ccap41]

You could get a pretty well optioned GLC for $50k, you can't get everything, but you can still get $10k worth of options, if you avoid the $2900 sport package and $1900 air suspension you can get all the driver nannies and interior upgrades without getting too high in price.

 

Oddly enough the GLC300 has a better 0-60 time than the Envision or the 310 hp Cadillac XT5.  And it won't depreciate like those two.

But if it comes how it has to be for her to buy it..then it is what dfelt quoted. 

 

It sounds like his sister isn't a race car driver and a tenth or two to 60mph doesn't matter...like most people. 

 

It'll depreciate more as it starts 8ish grand more for similar product. 

[surreal1272]

You could get a pretty well optioned GLC for $50k, you can't get everything, but you can still get $10k worth of options, if you avoid the $2900 sport package and $1900 air suspension you can get all the driver nannies and interior upgrades without getting too high in price.

 

Oddly enough the GLC300 has a better 0-60 time than the Envision or the 310 hp Cadillac XT5.  And it won't depreciate like those two.

Won't depreciate like those two?

Riiiiiight. Must be why you can pick up a "gently used" MB at great low prices.

Jaguar F-Pace is in this price range and has a 340 hp V6.

And it has that wonderful Jaguar reliability we've come to know and love for so many years. </sarcasm>

[G. David Felt]

You could get a pretty well optioned GLC for $50k, you can't get everything, but you can still get $10k worth of options, if you avoid the $2900 sport package and $1900 air suspension you can get all the driver nannies and interior upgrades without getting too high in price.

 

Oddly enough the GLC300 has a better 0-60 time than the Envision or the 310 hp Cadillac XT5.  And it won't depreciate like those two.

GLC 300 4 matic equiped like a Buick Envision Premium II package less the trailer hitch you cannot have without giving up a wide range of electronic devices my sister wants equals $ 59,615 with less rear leg room, less hip room, less head room plus much less in other areas. Less HP, Less Torque, Less, Less, Less, in way to many ways.

 

Plus I was totally cramped in the GLC 300 and lisa also felt like a sardine compared to the Envision. Envision truly give MB a run for the money in many ways.

 

 

Envision Premium II has everything including the trailer hitch for $50,240

 

 

In my opinion, this is one place that MB fails and does NOT live up to the value of the Buick.

 

Even the BMW X3  came in at $55,520. 

 

Only BMW and MB folks who thumb their nose at the Envision without looking at it will never realize the value and quality GM put into this.

 

This is also my concern for Cadillac if they really do not step up the game, China driven Buick could surpass Cadillac.

 

Do not trust me, go check out an Envision yourself. It surprised the hell out of me what you get for a fully loaded Envision Premium II package.

[G. David Felt]

Not sure why but the web site for MB is weird as today the package is higher than it was the other day I compared them. Plus for some reason I cannot add the trailer hitch without loosing the electronic safety gear my sister wants. Strange, but no matter how I look at it, when you put the name aside and compare basic Facts, the Buick Wins hands down over BMW and MB.

[ccap41]

 

You could get a pretty well optioned GLC for $50k, you can't get everything, but you can still get $10k worth of options, if you avoid the $2900 sport package and $1900 air suspension you can get all the driver nannies and interior upgrades without getting too high in price.

 

Oddly enough the GLC300 has a better 0-60 time than the Envision or the 310 hp Cadillac XT5.  And it won't depreciate like those two.

Won't depreciate like those two?

Riiiiiight. Must be why you can pick up a "gently used" MB at great low prices.

Jaguar F-Pace is in this price range and has a 340 hp V6.

And it has that wonderful Jaguar reliability we've come to know and love for so many years. </sarcasm>

 

If I were in the market for a vehicle in this price range...and only planned to own for a couple years to be covered under the warranty... I would consider the F-Pace. I just think it looks great and 340hp would be on the fun side as well. But absolutely NOT if it was outside of warranty. And that goes for about anything German as well. 

 

Everything "high end" depreciates like a son of a bitch. Maybe one or two hold 1-2% over the others.. but in general they all fall like a brick once off the dealers' lots. MB is no better than Jag or BMW or Audi save for a % or two.. 

Not sure why but the web site for MB is weird as today the package is higher than it was the other day I compared them. Plus for some reason I cannot add the trailer hitch without loosing the electronic safety gear my sister wants. Strange, but no matter how I look at it, when you put the name aside and compare basic Facts, the Buick Wins hands down over BMW and MB.

Did you look at the Q5 also?  That's in that same category of small-ish CUVs, right? 

 

Or MKX? Not sure if size-wise it stacks up but it starts at 38k so I just assumed it was the competitive Lincoln. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

 

 

Not sure why but the web site for MB is weird as today the package is higher than it was the other day I compared them. Plus for some reason I cannot add the trailer hitch without loosing the electronic safety gear my sister wants. Strange, but no matter how I look at it, when you put the name aside and compare basic Facts, the Buick Wins hands down over BMW and MB.

 

Or MKX? Not sure if size-wise it stacks up but it starts at 38k so I just assumed it was the competitive Lincoln. 

 

Yes looked at the Q5 as well as the MKX. She did not care for the styling or the layout of the Q5. The MKX was a good choice till it died on her on the test drive. Had plenty of gas but just stopped and had the engine dummy light on. At this point she made the comment, Fix or Repair Daily is still the moto at Ford? Was quickly off her list to consider.

 

Will say that the last 2 months have been a drive of CUVs in trying to help her narrow it down. At this point I think she is set on the Envision. Only thing holding back now is the finalization of her divorce first and then a new auto to start a new life.

[smk4565]

Mercedes and BMW aren't selling on a value proposition, the GLC has the best interior of any small SUV, both the X3 and GLC have the rear drive handling advantage also. 

 

You could compare an Escape or Hyundai Santa Fe and load one of those up and be under $40k and have great value proposition too.  Buick is still not a luxury brand in my mind.  They are a step above Ford or Hyundai, but not on par with BMW or Mercedes.  Cadillac isn't even on par with BMW or Mercedes yet.  The XT5 is sized like a GLE, but priced like a GLC.

 

For $40k I bet one could find a well equipped certified M-class and they have a 2 year unlimited mile warranty.

Edited June 29, 2016 by smk4565

[ccap41]

 

 

 

Not sure why but the web site for MB is weird as today the package is higher than it was the other day I compared them. Plus for some reason I cannot add the trailer hitch without loosing the electronic safety gear my sister wants. Strange, but no matter how I look at it, when you put the name aside and compare basic Facts, the Buick Wins hands down over BMW and MB.

 

Or MKX? Not sure if size-wise it stacks up but it starts at 38k so I just assumed it was the competitive Lincoln. 

 

Yes looked at the Q5 as well as the MKX. She did not care for the styling or the layout of the Q5. The MKX was a good choice till it died on her on the test drive. Had plenty of gas but just stopped and had the engine dummy light on. At this point she made the comment, Fix or Repair Daily is still the moto at Ford? Was quickly off her list to consider.

 

Will say that the last 2 months have been a drive of CUVs in trying to help her narrow it down. At this point I think she is set on the Envision. Only thing holding back now is the finalization of her divorce first and then a new auto to start a new life.

 

Yeah that would leave a bad taste in my mouth as well, the MKX. 

 

That's good she at least tried both of those out as well. Cannot hurt to try on too many cars when they are that large of an investment. 

[G. David Felt]

Mercedes and BMW aren't selling on a value proposition, the GLC has the best interior of any small SUV, both the X3 and GLC have the rear drive handling advantage also. 

 

You could compare an Escape or Hyundai Santa Fe and load one of those up and be under $40k and have great value proposition too.  Buick is still not a luxury brand in my mind.  They are a step above Ford or Hyundai, but not on par with BMW or Mercedes.  Cadillac isn't even on par with BMW or Mercedes yet.  The XT5 is sized like a GLE, but priced like a GLC.

 

For $40k I bet one could find a well equipped certified M-class and they have a 2 year unlimited mile warranty.

WOW, You have swallowed the WHOLE OCEAN of Koolaid. You need to get out and really look at the Buick Envision. The interior and Exterior destroy the GLC. That Hard Plastic poorly assembled german JUNK is way over priced compared to what you get in the Envision.

 

Yes Buick is not focused to compete against MB, but here they destroy MB GLC. MB is in denial if they think they are better than what Buick has built. After comparing them back to back, anyone can see that Buick is a superior auto.

 

Go out and test drive, take some pictures and post a real review as I have done before you pound the MB is superior drum. I have clearly compared them and MB FAILS in so many ways.

 

Now your just pounding the Badge is better than Buick Marketing Fluff that is a LIE!

[G. David Felt]

 

 

 

 

Not sure why but the web site for MB is weird as today the package is higher than it was the other day I compared them. Plus for some reason I cannot add the trailer hitch without loosing the electronic safety gear my sister wants. Strange, but no matter how I look at it, when you put the name aside and compare basic Facts, the Buick Wins hands down over BMW and MB.

 

Or MKX? Not sure if size-wise it stacks up but it starts at 38k so I just assumed it was the competitive Lincoln. 

 

Yes looked at the Q5 as well as the MKX. She did not care for the styling or the layout of the Q5. The MKX was a good choice till it died on her on the test drive. Had plenty of gas but just stopped and had the engine dummy light on. At this point she made the comment, Fix or Repair Daily is still the moto at Ford? Was quickly off her list to consider.

 

Will say that the last 2 months have been a drive of CUVs in trying to help her narrow it down. At this point I think she is set on the Envision. Only thing holding back now is the finalization of her divorce first and then a new auto to start a new life.

 

Yeah that would leave a bad taste in my mouth as well, the MKX. 

 

That's good she at least tried both of those out as well. Cannot hurt to try on too many cars when they are that large of an investment. 

 

 

My Dad had an auto repair business growing up so had the ability to see plenty of what was always coming in for repairs and the changes from manufacture to manufacture.

 

The one thing that has always stuck in my mind that my dad said:

 

"Every OEM builds good auto's, just some biuld better than others and this changes from year to year and over time."

 

Testing everything out there and comparing them is the only way to do this and this long comparison has clearly weeded out junk and less than true rated quality.

[smk4565]

Well to be fair, the GLC is assembled in the USA, so it can't be poorly assembled German junk.  I haven't driven a GLC, only a C300, but I had no complaints about it and thought it was pretty nice.  The GLC did just win a comparison test over Lincoln, Lexus, and some other forgettable crossover, and it has gotten good reviews overall.  GLC might not be for everyone, but it isn't junk or at the bottom of the class.

[balthazar]

It is in initial quality surveys.

[Suaviloquent]

Well the residuals for a typical lease length for the 24 or 48 mos is actually favourable for the GLC...

 

But the GLC is fine and dandy...but IT HAS has this stupid thing. You turn turn off the engine, but before you press the park button, the transmission shifts to neutral. So on an incline, it's fricking scary to do a parallel park job.

 

And they won't fix it even though CR reached them about it.

 

What evs. My main issue with the this Buick is that it should be made in USA (assembled rather)....aside from that, it looks pretty good. But the exterior is lacking some pop, you know what I mean? It looks kinda bland compared to the Lacrosse....

[G. David Felt]

Well to be fair, the GLC is assembled in the USA, so it can't be poorly assembled German junk.  I haven't driven a GLC, only a C300, but I had no complaints about it and thought it was pretty nice.  The GLC did just win a comparison test over Lincoln, Lexus, and some other forgettable crossover, and it has gotten good reviews overall.  GLC might not be for everyone, but it isn't junk or at the bottom of the class.

Interesting NOTE is that most of the parts come pre assembled from Germany or China and then the basic over all finishing job of putting the modules together is in the US. This was ENGINEERED in Germany, Quality of the interior and exterior was decided by the German Corporate headquarters, the sign off was by the German leaders, The american worker bees built it to the GERMAN Masters Spec and Instructions.

 

As a German myself, I believe one should take responsibility for the product NO MATTER where one builds their product.

 

German Company, German Engineered for the most part, German Leadership, I expect nothing but accountability by the leaders for their great and poor products!

 

So DO NOT BLAME AMERICAN WORKERS! If you feel that strongly about German everything, then give up your American Citizenship, MOVE to Germany and love them like Crazy!

 

As a 4th Generation American, Pure German Heritage I respect Germany, But will Support America FIRST! I will also Defend this country for the Freedoms of our constitution even for people who cannot seem to View the Global Economy world we live in and that companies go up and down and live off their name more than quality products. Not every product can be the best from one company and the goes true even for GM or your Precious MB. 

 

Not everyone will work hard or do their best, that is why you get managed out for poor performance, but I have BEST INTENT that most want to do a quality job and quality work.

 

SMK DO NOT EVER BLAME AMERICAN WORKERS AGAIN FOR QUALITY when workers all over the world build crappy products and MB has done this more than once in building subpar products!

[daves87rs]

This is good to hear....just saw one yesterday.....look simple, but nice.

 

Will have to drive one myself....

 

 

This gives me hope for the new Nox too....

[smk4565]

I am not blaming Americans for poor quality, I happen to think the C-class and GLC have the best made interiors, and best build quality in their respective segments.

 

And if we want to ride the Support America and Buy American train, then buying a car that says "Made in China" on it is not the way to do that.

[balthazar]

Where the assembly plant is is immaterial to where the corporation is headquartered.
No one calls the South Carolina mercedes' 'American cars'; they're a 'German' vehicle. Same with China-assembled Cadillacs; they're an 'American' vehicle.
You support Cadillac, you are supporting an American Brand.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Where the assembly plant is is immaterial to where the corporation is headquartered.

No one calls the South Carolina mercedes' 'American cars'; they're a 'German' vehicle. Same with China-assembled Cadillacs; they're an 'American' vehicle.

You support Cadillac, you are supporting an American Brand.

 

 

Yup. People just don't seem to get this and I believe that the foreign companies invented this idea of "American Content" (see Camry) to play on the naivety of many Americans. 

[smk4565]

So if GK built 100% of their cars in China, laid off 100,000 UAW workers and Mary Barra got a $20 million bonus and the stockholders get double the dividend, is that good for America too? We supported an American brand in that scenario.

[surreal1272]

Well to be fair, the GLC is assembled in the USA, so it can't be poorly assembled German junk.  I haven't driven a GLC, only a C300, but I had no complaints about it and thought it was pretty nice.  The GLC did just win a comparison test over Lincoln, Lexus, and some other forgettable crossover, and it has gotten good reviews overall.  GLC might not be for everyone, but it isn't junk or at the bottom of the class.

It's built to German specifications regardless of location.

[surreal1272]

Mercedes and BMW aren't selling on a value proposition, the GLC has the best interior of any small SUV, both the X3 and GLC have the rear drive handling advantage also.

You could compare an Escape or Hyundai Santa Fe and load one of those up and be under $40k and have great value proposition too. Buick is still not a luxury brand in my mind. They are a step above Ford or Hyundai, but not on par with BMW or Mercedes. Cadillac isn't even on par with BMW or Mercedes yet. The XT5 is sized like a GLE, but priced like a GLC.

For $40k I bet one could find a well equipped certified M-class and they have a 2 year unlimited mile warranty.

Not selling on a value proposition? Ummm...

https://www.google.com/search?q=2014+mercedes+cla+ad&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4bKmrNDNAhVE5mMKHYWYCdIQ_AUICCgB&biw=414&bih=628&dpr=3#imgrc=Q2KbY5ZTTAUDVM%3A

Edited June 30, 2016 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

So if GK built 100% of their cars in China, laid off 100,000 UAW workers and Mary Barra got a $20 million bonus and the stockholders get double the dividend, is that good for America too? We supported an American brand in that scenario.

Like much of your goal post moving or extreme corner cases, you just cannot admit that American companies can build outstanding products. MB just like GM has engineering firms all over the world to address and make sure local tastes are taken into account for the products. Bulk of engineering work is still done here in the US by American companies just like MB does the bulk of their engineering in Germany. Yes they have a local team here but their input is reviewed and still fully approved in Germany.

 

Just a Balthazar stated, you support a German Brand and I accept that, I support American brand but you have issues with that and pretty much any none MB brand. Your American built GLC is still a German product from a German brand. 

 

The Buick Envision is China Built but still an American product from an American brand.

 

Mercedes and BMW aren't selling on a value proposition, the GLC has the best interior of any small SUV, both the X3 and GLC have the rear drive handling advantage also.

You could compare an Escape or Hyundai Santa Fe and load one of those up and be under $40k and have great value proposition too. Buick is still not a luxury brand in my mind. They are a step above Ford or Hyundai, but not on par with BMW or Mercedes. Cadillac isn't even on par with BMW or Mercedes yet. The XT5 is sized like a GLE, but priced like a GLC.

For $40k I bet one could find a well equipped certified M-class and they have a 2 year unlimited mile warranty.

Not selling on a value proposition? Ummm...

https://www.google.com/search?q=2014+mercedes+cla+ad&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4bKmrNDNAhVE5mMKHYWYCdIQ_AUICCgB&biw=414&bih=628&dpr=3#imgrc=Q2KbY5ZTTAUDVM%3A

 

 

Totally agree, how is Starting at $29,900 not a value proposition?

[smk4565]

I personally wouldn't buy a made in China car, but where the Envision (or any car) is made for example doesn't really matter to me.  The Regal is made in Germany and the C-class is built in Alabama, but I'd rather drive a C-class because I like the car more.    I care about the car not the country of origin.  

 

I take issue with people saying it is best to buy American, to support American business/workers, when the Toyota Camry has more American made parts than any car on the market and is made in the USA.  We should all buy Camrys then if we want to support American jobs and help the American economy.  I personally do not pick a car based on where it is made or where the company headquarters is.  I'd rather drive what I feel to be the best car in the segment or best product for the price point I am looking for.

[surreal1272]

I personally wouldn't buy a made in China car, but where the Envision (or any car) is made for example doesn't really matter to me. The Regal is made in Germany and the C-class is built in Alabama, but I'd rather drive a C-class because I like the car more. I care about the car not the country of origin.

I take issue with people saying it is best to buy American, to support American business/workers, when the Toyota Camry has more American made parts than any car on the market and is made in the USA. We should all buy Camrys then if we want to support American jobs and help the American economy. I personally do not pick a car based on where it is made or where the company headquarters is. I'd rather drive what I feel to be the best car in the segment or best product for the price point I am looking for.

Then you clearly don't get it and I'm offended that you are so blind to this. Sure, the assemblers get their pay but the rest of that money goes right back overseas to their foreign owners. If you don't see the problem there, then maybe you should be offended at yourself.

Edited June 30, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

I absolutely get it.  Money going into GM doesn't mean the workers get a raise or GM will hire more employees, it means they can pay the executives a bigger bonus and the stock holders a bigger dividend.   What if GM decides to build the Silverado in China, and close down the Flint, MI and Fort Wayne, IN factories, lay off 10,000 people all in the name of "increasing share holder value."    Small cars are less profitable, they could move Sonic, Cruze and Malibu production to Mexico or Brazil or China to get cheaper labor, and lay off another 10,000 Americans.    But the stock price will go up.

 

So who are the major stock holders in GM, average joes?  Nope, Mutual Fund companies.  There are the top shareholders in GM:

 

 

United Auto Workers  9.34%

 

Vanguard Group:       5.53%

Harris Partners LP:   5.41%

State Street Corp:   3.81%

Berkshire Hathaway:  3.33%

Fidelity Investments:  3.17:

Black Rock Fund:      2.83%

JP Morgan Investments:  2.71%

 

That group not counting the UAW owns over 26% of GM and the next  12 after them are all investment/mutual fund companies too.

 

Buying a car to support a country is a false premise, unless you are buying a car built in that country with parts from that country, such as the Camry.  The Camry (a car I hate) is the most American car that creates the most American jobs of anything on the market today.

[balthazar]

Average Joes hold retirement, pension and investment portfolios thru mutual funds. The mutual fund companies don't own the stocks outright, but primarily for clients.

 

Camry is a Japanese car from a Japanese corpor-glomerate, screwed together in America in about an hour.

[surreal1272]

I absolutely get it. Money going into GM doesn't mean the workers get a raise or GM will hire more employees, it means they can pay the executives a bigger bonus and the stock holders a bigger dividend. What if GM decides to build the Silverado in China, and close down the Flint, MI and Fort Wayne, IN factories, lay off 10,000 people all in the name of "increasing share holder value." Small cars are less profitable, they could move Sonic, Cruze and Malibu production to Mexico or Brazil or China to get cheaper labor, and lay off another 10,000 Americans. But the stock price will go up.

So who are the major stock holders in GM, average joes? Nope, Mutual Fund companies. There are the top shareholders in GM:

United Auto Workers 9.34%

Vanguard Group: 5.53%

Harris Partners LP: 5.41%

State Street Corp: 3.81%

Berkshire Hathaway: 3.33%

Fidelity Investments: 3.17:

Black Rock Fund: 2.83%

JP Morgan Investments: 2.71%

That group not counting the UAW owns over 26% of GM and the next 12 after them are all investment/mutual fund companies too.

Buying a car to support a country is a false premise, unless you are buying a car built in that country with parts from that country, such as the Camry. The Camry (a car I hate) is the most American car that creates the most American jobs of anything on the market today.

Impressive side stepping but 100% unrelated to what I was saying. Good grief man. Pay attention.

Now that you bring it up though, shall we talk about the German auto makers and how they treat their US employees? The average wage of a German auto worker is $67/hr. It's not even a third of that here and no, it does not have squat do with Germany being a more costly place in which to live. That is what I am talking about here. They pay a shot wage here and all the rest of the money goes to Germany. Now I realize that GM, Ford, and FCA do the same in other countries but you cannot sit on that high horse of yours and complain about their practices while ignoring German makes. Simply baffling how you can't get that concept.

And please explain this bit of hypocrisy. You said it doesn't matter about the country of origin but not even two months ago you said you'd never buy a Chinese made S Class.

Edited July 1, 2016 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

 

I absolutely get it. Money going into GM doesn't mean the workers get a raise or GM will hire more employees, it means they can pay the executives a bigger bonus and the stock holders a bigger dividend. What if GM decides to build the Silverado in China, and close down the Flint, MI and Fort Wayne, IN factories, lay off 10,000 people all in the name of "increasing share holder value." Small cars are less profitable, they could move Sonic, Cruze and Malibu production to Mexico or Brazil or China to get cheaper labor, and lay off another 10,000 Americans. But the stock price will go up.

So who are the major stock holders in GM, average joes? Nope, Mutual Fund companies. There are the top shareholders in GM:

United Auto Workers 9.34%

Vanguard Group: 5.53%

Harris Partners LP: 5.41%

State Street Corp: 3.81%

Berkshire Hathaway: 3.33%

Fidelity Investments: 3.17:

Black Rock Fund: 2.83%

JP Morgan Investments: 2.71%

That group not counting the UAW owns over 26% of GM and the next 12 after them are all investment/mutual fund companies too.

Buying a car to support a country is a false premise, unless you are buying a car built in that country with parts from that country, such as the Camry. The Camry (a car I hate) is the most American car that creates the most American jobs of anything on the market today.

Impressive side stepping but 100% unrelated to what I was saying. Good grief man. Pay attention.

Now that you bring it up though, shall we talk about the German auto makers and how they treat their US employees? The average wage of a German auto worker is $67/hr. It's not even a third of that here and no, it does not have squat do with Germany being a more costly place in which to live. That is what I am talking about here. They pay a shot wage here and all the rest of the money goes to Germany. Now I realize that GM, Ford, and FCA do the same in other countries but you cannot sit on that high horse of yours and complain about their practices while ignoring German makes. Simply baffling how you can't get that concept.

And please explain this bit of hypocrisy. You said it doesn't matter about the country of origin but not even two months ago you said you'd never buy a Chinese made S Class.

 

Yet SMK says it is OK to have an american built GLC or any other US built German Driving machine.

 

Also where is our 6 weeks of PTO that they get in Germany. If we are to go down that Socialist Rabbit hole, then you have everyone in the US deserving to have 6 weeks of PTO plus 2 weeks of sick leave and their very high hourly rate of pay, not that everyone deserves the same, as hell there is plenty of lazy ass Americans here.

[Suaviloquent]

The real answer is gray. Different circumstance every time.

 

Typical auto margins like GM or Ford are like 9, 10%.

 

Bonus pay to exec's is almost always earned thorough options exercised to purchase equity below market value.

 

However, having a large domestic parts content is still commendable. Huge multiplier effect...and all these companies eventually overlap suppliers. So I find it funny at times how American cars sometimes fail to have the high parts content we want, and how Mexico in some cases counts as "domestic".

 

I'm not sure about what kind of deal design/engineering has - except the effects like manufacturing are localized at times. Like Ford's campus, or GM renaissance. But then again, we hear all the time how GM Korea for example did a lot of work for the previous Cruze, Spark and gamma crossover twins. Ford's Mondeo is an American car, designed in Germany, tested in Britain, built formerly only at a Mexican manufacturing facility for our domestic market.... Like where is the value captured for America when the only thing America gets is now the assembly and the profit... but everything else is lost.

 

I think the Kogod study...I think...I may be wrong...please do call me out on it...but I do not think they make the distinctions that clear of what it actually means to have a car American engineered. and and yet fully American. Because I don't think the Malibu, for example was just designed by Americans for the rest of the world. Some input came from foreign branch locations.

 

Yet as per Toyota's claim, they say...which you can place any weight on as you like, that their Avalon was fully designed and engineered in USA, and has a very high domestic parts content...and is exported as well.

 

But then the vehicles that are high in the domestic content and local contribution to profit, and high white collar jobs are almost quintessentially American. Pickup trucks - the light duty and heavy duty are ALL big 3 middle finger time. Domestic commercial vans used to be big on local parts content, but Chevy hasn't updated or provided a true replacement for the Express vans (not the rebadged Nissan from Mexico); Ford imports the transit connect as a passenger car and then reverts it back to a cargo van, and the Transit is probably more Euro than American, and it's diesel engine is imported from Europe.

 

 

All that being said. I would myself reject a Chinese made prestige or above car...especially if it's Buick, Lincoln or Cadillac. I think for the home market domestic consumption...all of those luxury cars should be made in America, and exported for the highest prestige cars at the very least. But we can't do that can we? 

 

I have nothing against this Buick, I believe it to be a benign car, fully better for the specific things a person such as DFelt's siblings would need. But I do not like that even before a Chinese built crossover is sold here by a Chinese company (large volume wise)...GM is looking to cash in on the crossover craze. And why not? Buick needs maybe 2 MORE.

 

But I do not want to be a part of that, GM or ANY American luxury or expensive or TESLA...yeah even YOU... if assembled in China and specifically China (throw in India...Eastern Europe, Baltics...heck Japan)... will never find their place in any driveway of mine.

[smk4565]

 

I absolutely get it. Money going into GM doesn't mean the workers get a raise or GM will hire more employees, it means they can pay the executives a bigger bonus and the stock holders a bigger dividend. What if GM decides to build the Silverado in China, and close down the Flint, MI and Fort Wayne, IN factories, lay off 10,000 people all in the name of "increasing share holder value." Small cars are less profitable, they could move Sonic, Cruze and Malibu production to Mexico or Brazil or China to get cheaper labor, and lay off another 10,000 Americans. But the stock price will go up.

So who are the major stock holders in GM, average joes? Nope, Mutual Fund companies. There are the top shareholders in GM:

United Auto Workers 9.34%

Vanguard Group: 5.53%

Harris Partners LP: 5.41%

State Street Corp: 3.81%

Berkshire Hathaway: 3.33%

Fidelity Investments: 3.17:

Black Rock Fund: 2.83%

JP Morgan Investments: 2.71%

That group not counting the UAW owns over 26% of GM and the next 12 after them are all investment/mutual fund companies too.

Buying a car to support a country is a false premise, unless you are buying a car built in that country with parts from that country, such as the Camry. The Camry (a car I hate) is the most American car that creates the most American jobs of anything on the market today.

Impressive side stepping but 100% unrelated to what I was saying. Good grief man. Pay attention.

Now that you bring it up though, shall we talk about the German auto makers and how they treat their US employees? The average wage of a German auto worker is $67/hr. It's not even a third of that here and no, it does not have squat do with Germany being a more costly place in which to live. That is what I am talking about here. They pay a shot wage here and all the rest of the money goes to Germany. Now I realize that GM, Ford, and FCA do the same in other countries but you cannot sit on that high horse of yours and complain about their practices while ignoring German makes. Simply baffling how you can't get that concept.

And please explain this bit of hypocrisy. You said it doesn't matter about the country of origin but not even two months ago you said you'd never buy a Chinese made S Class.

 

Because I don't care where the profits go to.  All these corporations have a lot of stock bought by the investment companies, whether it be Ford, GM, Toyota, or Daimler.  And they all build cars in multiple countries around the world.  And I would not buy a made in China Mercedes, luckily for me they build many of them in Germarny (despite the high labor costs) and they build them in the USA too.

 

But buying a car made in China, is not supporting America.  That is like saying buying Donald Trump's made in China ties is good for the American worker.  It is ridiculous.  If you want to say buying a made in Kentucky Corvette is good for America, I am all in on that one.

 

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans.  So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by smk4565

[Suaviloquent]

I learned that a lot of the components for the CT6 plug-in are actually made domestically. 

 

So it's even a bigger WTF for me, why they ship all those parts to the China assembly when most of the drivetrain is BUILT here, and the CT6 is also built here.

 

Hamtramck assembly also builds Volts, so it isn't like they don't have the right training for personnel or tooling to build them.

[surreal1272]

I absolutely get it. Money going into GM doesn't mean the workers get a raise or GM will hire more employees, it means they can pay the executives a bigger bonus and the stock holders a bigger dividend. What if GM decides to build the Silverado in China, and close down the Flint, MI and Fort Wayne, IN factories, lay off 10,000 people all in the name of "increasing share holder value." Small cars are less profitable, they could move Sonic, Cruze and Malibu production to Mexico or Brazil or China to get cheaper labor, and lay off another 10,000 Americans. But the stock price will go up.

So who are the major stock holders in GM, average joes? Nope, Mutual Fund companies. There are the top shareholders in GM:

United Auto Workers 9.34%

Vanguard Group: 5.53%

Harris Partners LP: 5.41%

State Street Corp: 3.81%

Berkshire Hathaway: 3.33%

Fidelity Investments: 3.17:

Black Rock Fund: 2.83%

JP Morgan Investments: 2.71%

That group not counting the UAW owns over 26% of GM and the next 12 after them are all investment/mutual fund companies too.

Buying a car to support a country is a false premise, unless you are buying a car built in that country with parts from that country, such as the Camry. The Camry (a car I hate) is the most American car that creates the most American jobs of anything on the market today.

Impressive side stepping but 100% unrelated to what I was saying. Good grief man. Pay attention.

Now that you bring it up though, shall we talk about the German auto makers and how they treat their US employees? The average wage of a German auto worker is $67/hr. It's not even a third of that here and no, it does not have squat do with Germany being a more costly place in which to live. That is what I am talking about here. They pay a shot wage here and all the rest of the money goes to Germany. Now I realize that GM, Ford, and FCA do the same in other countries but you cannot sit on that high horse of yours and complain about their practices while ignoring German makes. Simply baffling how you can't get that concept.

And please explain this bit of hypocrisy. You said it doesn't matter about the country of origin but not even two months ago you said you'd never buy a Chinese made S Class.

Because I don't care where the profits go to. All these corporations have a lot of stock bought by the investment companies, whether it be Ford, GM, Toyota, or Daimler. And they all build cars in multiple countries around the world. And I would not buy a made in China Mercedes, luckily for me they build many of them in Germarny (despite the high labor costs) and they build them in the USA too.

But buying a car made in China, is not supporting America. That is like saying buying Donald Trump's made in China ties is good for the American worker. It is ridiculous. If you want to say buying a made in Kentucky Corvette is good for America, I am all in on that one.

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans. So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does.

Then there's your problem right there. You should care where the profits are going because profits kept here means profits that are spent here. It's a real simple concept actually and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Oh and thanks for proving your hypocrisy on the countries of origin remark. That literally makes no damn sense.

Edited July 2, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

I learned that a lot of the components for the CT6 plug-in are actually made domestically. 

 

So it's even a bigger WTF for me, why they ship all those parts to the China assembly when most of the drivetrain is BUILT here, and the CT6 is also built here.

 

Hamtramck assembly also builds Volts, so it isn't like they don't have the right training for personnel or tooling to build them.

Because most of the CT6s are for the Chinese market. You build where the majority of sales will be. It sucks but that's the way of the world and that's why if it doesn't matter that a Benz is built in Alabama then it sure as hell doesn't matter if a Cadddy is built in China.

[balthazar]

^ Daimler sells about 50% of it's global output of S-classes in China. Wonder when they are going to break down & build a plant there?

[surreal1272]

^ Daimler sells about 50% of it's global output of S-classes in China. Wonder when they are going to break down & build a plant there?

It's going to happen eventually. I look forward to the excuses given for it when that happens.

[smk4565]

 

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans. So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does.

Then there's your problem right there. You should care where the profits are going because profits kept here means profits that are spent here. It's a real simple concept actually and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Oh and thanks for proving your hypocrisy on the countries of origin remark. That literally makes no damn sense.

 

Who says they have to spend the profits here?  Companies outsource and move things overseas all the time to save money, and thus make higher profits.   Ford has made good profits lately, what did they do?  They spent $1.6 Billion to build a factory in Mexico and create 2,800 jobs in Mexico.  So those F150 profits are going straight to Mexico.  They could have invested those dollars in a new factory in Michigan or Indiana, but they didn't.

 

FCA has turned profit the last couple years, did they invest it in the USA?  No, they discontinued the 200 and Dart, laid off workers in those factories, and the Compass/Patriot are to be replaced by a single model, built in a new factory in Mexico.  

 

I also found a story form December 2014 stating that GM would invest $3.6 billion to double their production capacity in Mexico and create 5,600 new jobs in Mexico. 

 

This idea that you buy an American brand car and the money gets invested back into America is a joke.   Buying a Buick Envision is supporting job growth in China and Mexico, they are stealing our jobs, they are stealing our money, and I am not voting for Trump either.  I do support free trade between all these countries, because the consumer always has the choice to buy what they want to buy.  And I wouldn't buy a car from China, and I won't buy one from Mexico.      

[surreal1272]

Interestingly enough, 34.8% of Daimler stock is owned by Germans, 31.2% by other European countries, and 23.7% is owned by Americans. So it isn't like 100% of the money goes back to Germany, only 1/3 does.

Then there's your problem right there. You should care where the profits are going because profits kept here means profits that are spent here. It's a real simple concept actually and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Oh and thanks for proving your hypocrisy on the countries of origin remark. That literally makes no damn sense.

Who says they have to spend the profits here? Companies outsource and move things overseas all the time to save money, and thus make higher profits. Ford has made good profits lately, what did they do? They spent $1.6 Billion to build a factory in Mexico and create 2,800 jobs in Mexico. So those F150 profits are going straight to Mexico. They could have invested those dollars in a new factory in Michigan or Indiana, but they didn't.

FCA has turned profit the last couple years, did they invest it in the USA? No, they discontinued the 200 and Dart, laid off workers in those factories, and the Compass/Patriot are to be replaced by a single model, built in a new factory in Mexico.

I also found a story form December 2014 stating that GM would invest $3.6 billion to double their production capacity in Mexico and create 5,600 new jobs in Mexico.

This idea that you buy an American brand car and the money gets invested back into America is a joke. Buying a Buick Envision is supporting job growth in China and Mexico, they are stealing our jobs, they are stealing our money, and I am not voting for Trump either. I do support free trade between all these countries, because the consumer always has the choice to buy what they want to buy. And I wouldn't buy a car from China, and I won't buy one from Mexico.

Dude you have to stop. Money kept here, not overseas, is more likely to be spent here. Those profits go to folks here eventually, not overseas. It's that damn simple. That is all because you have no argument here.

One last thing. You made my point by bringing up FCA and why it was always a bad deal. It's an Italian owner company so course, DUH, the money goes to Italy. Oh and F150s have and always will be made in Michigan hence their last investment in MICHIGAN for the aluminum F150. I cannot believe you spout that BS. It's their small cars that get built in Mexico, not their bread and butter trucks. You just have to stop this nonsense man.

Class dismissed.

Edited July 2, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

^ Daimler sells about 50% of it's global output of S-classes in China. Wonder when they are going to break down & build a plant there?

1/3rd of S-class sales are from China, and there is a factory in India already that supplies S-class to China and Southeast Asia.  European, Middle Eastern, and North American market S-class come from Germany.  

 

They are made here,

 

home to 22,000 employees, and this plant is receiving a $2 billion upgrade, so perhaps some companies re-invest in their home market.