Looking at Camry without driving one

[Intrepidation]

Link: http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,v...rtid=61537&pg=1

"Frank Sinatra Has A Cold" is widely regarded as one of the greatest pieces of journalism ever, thanks largely to the fact that writer Gay Talese created an insightful portrait of the great crooner by chronicling the circumstances that conspired to keep him from actually interviewing the subject of his story.

The Toyota Camry isn't the Frank Sinatra of the auto market (Perry Como's more like it), but it is possible to write about the best-selling car in the U.S. without actually driving it, or seeing it, or even knowing anything about the latest version that is just now coming onto the market.

Partly this is because the Japanese firm's intent with Camry hasn't changed through six iterations now, but mostly it's because the people (Boomers, for the most part) who converted to Camryism 20 years ago aren't interested in what anyone has to say about it.

By and large, the people who buy the Camry (and most other Toyota models) do so because they don't really like cars but they know they have to own one. They want an appliance that will serve their needs with maximum reliability and minimum angst, and Camry has served them well for decades. The blandness of the car and the changes in the auto industry that have pushed many other products up to or even beyond Camry's level matter not to these folks. Camry and Toyota have served them well enough so far, so why should they spend any time thinking about another model or even another brand?

As you can imagine, this attitude to Camry and Toyota by large parts of the auto buying public tends to frustrate other car companies, but what's really interesting is that it increasingly tends to concern the people at Toyota.

Right now, the surface picture for Toyota is rosy, as it recently reported US$12.1 billion in profits for the last fiscal year, largely because Japan keeps the yen low against competing currencies and that allows its auto industry to suck billions out of American and Canadian consumers. The fly in this ointment is that its customer base for Camry and most of its other products is aging and a replacement crowd is proving intensely difficult to locate.

When people starting moving to Toyota and Honda 30 or even 20 years ago it made a lot of sense, since the Japanese firms were offering reliable, fuel-efficient products when the U.S. brands were offering mostly junk, or demi-junk. These buyers stayed loyal to Toyota because there was no usually no compelling reason to risk some other brand.

But the folks who weren't forced into Camrys and Corollas have a different view of Toyota's product line, and it isn't enthusiastic. They find Camry and most of the rest of the Toyota lineup boring, and if you scratch below the polite surface they will tell you that the people who buy Camry and most other Toyota models are just as boring as the cars they drive.

True or not, fair or not, this is the impression that Toyota has to battle as it works relentlessly to put a cool, hip face on every new model it launches. The latest Camry is no different, except that the effort to turn it into something desirable for people who know and love cars is a little more forced because Toyota knows that time is running out, that Boomers are coming to the end of their new car buying lives. Unfortunately for the giant Japanese auto company, working hard to look cool essentially kills any chance of that happening. The golden rule of cool is that you're not cool if you say you are.

These are the circumstances that make it unnecessary to actually drive a new Camry before commenting on it. If you want to know, I bet the new Camry is an excellent piece of work that will delight its devotees and cause the rest of us to stay out of Toyota stores in droves.

If I can paraphrase a singer that appeals to a different crowd: "You don't have to drive a Camry to see which way the wind's blowing."

[sciguy_0504]

The requisite Toyota bashing piece of the day.

[Intrepidation]

The requisite Toyota bashing piece of the day.

Yes, heaven forbid that an auto journalist be honest and take a shot at Toyota. Curse him for not excepting Toyota's bribes!!!

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Ah, it's so refreshing to read the truth coming from an auto journalist's mouth for once.

Big kudos for posting that, DF.

[Camino LS6]

Seems to me I've posted my own version of this article over the last few weeks. Nice to see I'm not alone in my "opinions" and impressions. Thanks for the post.

[balthazar]

Oh no you don't, Camino. You were 'proved' wrong and 'wrong' you continue to be. You're just gonna have to live with this burden the rest of your automotive enthusiast life, buddy.

BTW: >>"Boomers are coming to the end of their new car buying lives."<<

Boomers are as young as 41, which is still a number of years LESS than the average age of toyota-in-general buyers, never mind the average age of camry buyers. On average, the younger boomers have up to 35 years of new car buying years ahead of them.

[Camino LS6]

Oh no you don't, Camino. You were 'proved' wrong and 'wrong' you continue to be. You're just gonna have to live with this burden the rest of your automotive enthusiast life, buddy.

BTW: >>"Boomers are coming to the end of their new car buying lives."<<

Boomers are as young as 41, which is still a number of years LESS than the average age of toyota-in-general buyers, never mind the average age of camry buyers. On average, the younger boomers have up to 35 years of new car buying years ahead of them.

[Dsuupr]

And that is why so many young people are loving Buicks. They might be "old" but atleast they have a personality.

[Cory Wolfe]

That was a great article, honestly.

[Newbiewar]

Ah, it's so refreshing to read the truth coming from an auto journalist's mouth for once.

Big kudos for posting that, DF.

i think this article is why i hate toyota... because it seems to suck the life out of the automotive industry, it takes the enthusiasm out...

[grandmarquis]

The requisite Toyota bashing piece of the day.

you are just having trouble accepting this.......... as it is the GOSPEL TRUTH!!! toyota has always built really good APPLIANCES, not good CARS! name me a truely cool toyota (that is agreed by many, not by your obviously biased opinion). maybe, just MAYBE, the last gen, supra. the last gen celica? turd. ANY of their trucks? uh, yea right. scions? come back in a couple years after the scion product line get stale (and that i guarantee will happen).

Edited May 13, 2006 by grandmarquis

[enzl]

you are just having trouble accepting this.......... as it is the GOSPEL TRUTH!!! toyota has always built really good APPLIANCES, not good CARS! name me a truely cool toyota (that is agreed by many, not by your obviously biased opinion). maybe, just MAYBE, the last gen, supra. the last gen celica? turd. ANY of their trucks? uh, yea right. scions? come back in a couple years after the scion product line get stale (and that i guarantee will happen).

While it is absolutely true that Toyota makes appliances (soulless, but reliable, well built, highly functional and targeted accurately), I don't see how THEY are responsible for sucking the soul out of car building...

Ex. What mainstream product truly possesses soul? BMW? Alfa? Mazda? Nissan?

I'm not sure what the criticism is here, as Toyota's direct competitors, import or domestic, build a ton of really vanilla product.

Is the Malibu or Impala inherently more soulful than a Camry? If so, what is the critierion used to measure that?

I might see an argument that certain Altimas are very sporty, in a way that a Camry isn't....or that the Civic Si, with its screamer engine, is a more involving product than a Corolla.....but are these really products with soul?

Perhaps its semantics, but I don't find any mainstream GM products soulful....Ford might have argument with the Mustang (or Fusion) and the DCX LX's might be arguable...

I'm trying to establish what we are benchmarking, because I can't honestly say that Toyota, GM or any other mass manufacturer really puts out mainstream product that has a 'soul'.

Can anyone shed some light on this one?

[grandmarquis]

While it is absolutely true that Toyota makes appliances (soulless, but reliable, well built, highly functional and targeted accurately), I don't see how THEY are responsible for sucking the soul out of car building...

Ex. What mainstream product truly possesses soul? BMW? Alfa? Mazda? Nissan?

I'm not sure what the criticism is here, as Toyota's direct competitors, import or domestic, build a ton of really vanilla product.

Is the Malibu or Impala inherently more soulful than a Camry? If so, what is the critierion used to measure that?

I might see an argument that certain Altimas are very sporty, in a way that a Camry isn't....or that the Civic Si, with its screamer engine, is a more involving product than a Corolla.....but are these really products with soul?

Perhaps its semantics, but I don't find any mainstream GM products soulful....Ford might have argument with the Mustang (or Fusion) and the DCX LX's might be arguable...

I'm trying to establish what we are benchmarking, because I can't honestly say that Toyota, GM or any other mass manufacturer really puts out mainstream product that has a 'soul'.

Can anyone shed some light on this one?

maybe "soul" is the wrong choice of words on our part, maybe "character" would be better. something that can make one feel a sense of "connection" to their vehicle. i drive a grand marquis (big surprise) and although is is a not a sporty car or anything like that, it just oozes character. why? can anyone doubt a full-size v8 powered land yacht has "pressence" on the road? toyotas just completely lack any character, just do just one thing, get you down the road invisibly and blandly. they just cannot appeal to one's emotions (unless toyota owners are emotionless robots). current domestic cars i would say that have charracter (or "soul") would be:

corvette (is there any doubt?)

mustang (see above)

fusion (and its siblings, especially after the 3.5 and awd comes out)

focus (really a great driving little sh*tbox)

gt

pt cruiser (although i don't care for them, they do appeal to their owners emotions)

300m

wrangler

viper

cadillac cts, sts, escalade,xlr

now i challenge anyone to find a single toyota that belongs on this list. xb? not a chance. around here in ne ohio only old folks seem to buy them (wasn't the demographic toyota was looking for). corrolla? YAWN!!! yaris? a turd in the making (and btw, what the f*ck is a "yaris"?) their suv's? again, YAWN!!!

[Enzora]

Does it really matter if any new Toyota model has character or not? It doesn't appear you would ever acknowledge it anyway.

[regfootball]

Right now, the surface picture for Toyota is rosy, as it recently reported US$12.1 billion in profits for the last fiscal year, largely because Japan keeps the yen low against competing currencies and that allows its auto industry to suck billions out of American and Canadian consumers.

[Robert Hall]

Oh no you don't, Camino. You were 'proved' wrong and 'wrong' you continue to be. You're just gonna have to live with this burden the rest of your automotive enthusiast life, buddy.

BTW: >>"Boomers are coming to the end of their new car buying lives."<<

Boomers are as young as 41, which is still a number of years LESS than the average age of toyota-in-general buyers, never mind the average age of camry buyers. On average, the younger boomers have up to 35 years of new car buying years ahead of them.

Also, the article was innacurate with the focus on only boomers..I certainly know plenty Gen Xers that drive Camrys and Corollas..

Many people buy Toyotas as they are the rational, sensible choice..they know they are getting a reliable car and one with a good resale value. These are not car enthusiasts, just regular people that need a car to get from point A to point B and back again.

Edited May 13, 2006 by moltar

[Petra]

now i challenge anyone to find a single toyota that belongs on this list. xb? not a chance. around here in ne ohio only old folks seem to buy them (wasn't the  demographic toyota was looking for).  corrolla? YAWN!!! yaris? a turd in the making (and btw, what the f*ck is a "yaris"?) their suv's? again, YAWN!!!

It's a moot point, anyway. Read this quote from the article:

...it is possible to write about the best-selling car in the U.S. without actually driving it... because the people (Boomers, for the most part) who converted to Camryism 20 years ago aren't interested in what anyone has to say about it.

Toyota doesn't build many cars with "character" or "soul" (whichever definition you prefer) because it knows it doesn't have to. Why should they? They get along just fine selling boring appliance cars. That is Toyota's niche in the marketplace, their raison d'etre.

If you want a high performance car, go to Mazda, Nissan, BMW, or (in some cases), Pontiac. If you want a luxurious car, go to Audi, Lexus, Infiniti or Mercedes. If you want a car that you don't have to think about, you go to Toyota. Trust me: they've cornered the market.

[Robert Hall]

If you want a high performance car, go to Mazda, Nissan, BMW, or (in some cases), Pontiac. If you want a luxurious car, go to Audi, Lexus, Infiniti or Mercedes. If you want a car that you don't have to think about, you go to Toyota. Trust me: they've cornered the market.

And with Lexus, Toyota has luxury cars you don't have to think about... it's also a rational, sensible choice, at higher price points than a Toyota, but still very sensible.

[Intrepidation]

Also, the article was innacurate with the focus on only boomers..I certainly know plenty Gen Xers that drive Camrys and Corollas..

Many people buy Toyotas as they are the rational, sensible choice..they know they are getting a reliable car and one with a good resale value.  These are not car enthusiasts, just regular people that need a car to get from point A to point B and back again.

So long as you stay away from the Avalon and V6 Camry...yar.

The SRT-4 had character..it may have been a Neon at heart, but it had the power to blow the doors and out handle more than half the cars on the road.

The Charger (or any LX car) has more character in it's grill than the entire Camry has had in its entire lifetime.

[Robert Hall]

So long as you stay away from the Avalon and V6 Camry...yar.

The SRT-4 had character..it may have been a Neon at heart, but it had the power to blow the doors and out handle more than half the cars on the road.

The Charger (or any LX car) has more character in it's grill than the entire Camry has had in its entire lifetime.

Camry buyers couldn't care less about 'blowing doors off' or 'character'..they want reliable appliances.

[Intrepidation]

Camry buyers couldn't care less about 'blowing doors off' or 'character'..they want reliable appliances.

So long as they stay away from the Avalon and V6 Camry

[toyoguy]

Who is Alex Law???

[Intrepidation]

Who is Alex Law???

I'm gonna go ahead and take a while guess that he is an auto journalist for auto123.com

[toyoguy]

I'm gonna go ahead and take a while guess that he is an auto journalist for auto123.com

take another while guess.

here's auto123 review, you know one where the car is actually driven.

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadte...rtid=60119&pg=1

[Intrepidation]

take another while guess.

here's auto123 review, you know one where the car is actually driven.

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadte...rtid=60119&pg=1

You do realize they have more than one journalist and not all of them will have the same opinion right?

[Mr.Krinkle]

Camry buyers couldn't care less about 'blowing doors off' or 'character'..they want reliable appliances.

camry buyers dont care about having a car. they need to have a car. to go from here to there and thats about it.

[andy82471]

camry buyers dont care about having a car.  they need to have a car.  to go from here to there and thats about it.

I think that is true for about 90% of the driving population. And that is why the Camry is such a runaway success. Personally I would prefer to teleport myself to my workplace rather than grinding through rush hour traffic but I can't

[ocnblu]

Where in the heck is Scotty when we need him?

[Horizon]

now i challenge anyone to find a single toyota that belongs on this list.

Well ones that appeal to me a lot, are the LS and GS models. Even the SC 430 rings a bell, as it was the first to bring a retractible hard top to the market. If those don't bring "character" I don't know what will.

Oh and a Focus? Who the hell are you trying to kid here? You've seriously have got to be kidding everyone of us on that one.... unless you're talking about the european edition, then I might reconsider. Come to think of it, I remember a few years back in Denver, they were doing a special on the Focus.... buy one, get one free (I'm serious). Yeah, that sure does spell character, heh.

[The O.C.]

I find it interesting that there's so much bashing on Toyota in this thread for being "souless" and "characterless" and whatever....when THEY are the ones that are building the BEST-SELLING car in America (however you want to criticize it...)

GM can't even slam enough Impalas into rental fleets to come close to Camry's success.....

If you call Toyota "souless" for that example of success, then I'd continue to build every single "souless" Toyota I could....

[Mr.Krinkle]

I think that is true for about 90% of the driving population. And that is why the Camry is such a runaway success. Personally I would prefer to teleport myself to my workplace rather than grinding through rush hour traffic but I can't

not exactly. the camry is a case of function over form. its greatest appeal is as a people mover, reliability, and dependability and i think out of pure necessity rather than sheer thrills or pleasure. (not that those are bad qualities to have when choosing a car, mind you)

im not knocking it or people who own one but its not considered a drivers driver.

also, i dont think toyota would have the 07 redesign all jazzed up and sportier (arguably) if they werent trying to appeal to a broader audience. i.e. those people that look for other qualities, too when buying a car. such as fun to drive, rewarding experience behind the wheel, etc

id skip over the rush hour grind too but not the drive.

[Cremazie]

Camry buyers couldn't care less about 'blowing doors off' or 'character'..they want reliable appliances.

Exactly, who needs a freezer that goes to absolute zero? That is the attitude behind many Camry owners. Why get a V6? the 4 cylinder gets along fine and gets good milage.

[enzl]

maybe "soul" is the wrong choice of words on our part, maybe "character" would be better. something that can make one feel a sense of "connection" to their vehicle. i drive a grand marquis (big surprise) and although is is a not a sporty car or anything like that, it just oozes character. why? can anyone doubt a full-size v8 powered land yacht has "pressence" on the road? toyotas just completely lack any character, just do just one thing, get you down the road invisibly and blandly. they just cannot appeal to one's emotions (unless toyota owners are emotionless robots).  current domestic cars i would say that have charracter (or "soul") would be:

  corvette (is there any doubt?)

  mustang (see above)

  fusion (and its siblings, especially after the 3.5 and awd comes out)

  focus (really a great driving little sh*tbox)

  gt

  pt cruiser (although i don't care for them, they do appeal to their owners emotions)

  300m

  wrangler

  viper

  cadillac cts, sts, escalade,xlr

 

now i challenge anyone to find a single toyota that belongs on this list. xb? not a chance. around here in ne ohio only old folks seem to buy them (wasn't the  demographic toyota was looking for).  corrolla? YAWN!!! yaris? a turd in the making (and btw, what the f*ck is a "yaris"?) their suv's? again, YAWN!!!

Just to clarify..and I think you made my point for me...no mainstream GM product, and very few other domestics, are really 'characters'---sporty, fun to drive and containing that certain something that brings them out of the ordinary....

FWIW, the Corvette is a limited production and far outside 'mainstream', as I was defining it...also, at the $35k + level, Caddy's should be full of character and, IMO, are not mainstream products, nor would GM want us to regard them as such...

That leaves 0 GM'ers....when a Malibu, Impala or normal Cobalt are characters, GM will be heading in the right direction....until then, they are trying to out-Japanese the Asian makers, which is not their strong suit...

[regfootball]

I find it interesting that there's so much bashing on Toyota in this thread for being "souless" and "characterless" and whatever....when THEY are the ones that are building the BEST-SELLING car in America (however you want to criticize it...)

GM can't even slam enough Impalas into rental fleets to come close to Camry's success.....

If you call Toyota "souless" for that example of success, then I'd continue to build every single "souless" Toyota I could....

people are idiots is all we say.

bose sells a lot of speakers to folks who think they are the cat's meow; most of their products are worthless crap too

sony, same thing, its garbage but it seems to satisfy the masses who don't get in and dissect it and really find out they could have had better.

Edited May 15, 2006 by regfootball

[MyerShift]

Mmm-hmm.

Would believe it regarding the boring people and Camrys.

You know, most of the people I've noticed driving Breezes aren't run-of-the-mill types.

One girl that comes to where I work has one the same colour as mine, and she has one funky and funky-colored hair-do!

[CARBIZ]

Certain people seem so proud of the fact that Toyota has the #1 selling car in the Camry.

BIG DEAL

If you walk into a Toyota show room and happen NOT to like the Camry, you have no choice but to either buy it or leave.

However, if you come into a Chevy showroom and don't like the Malibu, well you can look at the Impala, Epica OR scoot over to a P-B store and look at the G6, Grand Prix or Allure.

Or perhaps we have forgotten the GENERAL in General Motors. In Toyota you have the (over)priced Avalon or the Camry -that's it. I know all about the argument that Toyota can sell SO many cars with one model - that somehow makes them smarter and more profitable. But the fact remains, if a customer hates one model, I would rather have another two or three to show them, rather than have them walk out.

[enzl]

Certain people seem so proud of the fact that Toyota has the #1 selling car in the Camry.

  BIG DEAL

  If you walk into a Toyota show room and happen NOT to like the Camry, you have no choice but to either buy it or leave.

  However, if you come into a Chevy showroom and don't like the Malibu, well you can look at the Impala, Epica OR scoot over to a P-B store and look at the G6, Grand Prix or Allure.

  Or perhaps we have forgotten the GENERAL in General Motors.  In Toyota you have the (over)priced Avalon or the Camry -that's it.  I know all about the argument that Toyota can sell SO many cars with one model - that somehow makes them smarter and more profitable.  But the fact remains, if a customer hates one model, I would rather have another two or three to show them, rather than have them walk out.

This scenario would work in the real world, except that GM, in an effort to develop 'all things to all people', ironically, they've devolved into producing 'some things that nobody wants'...that's what happens when the budget for a 'Camry fighter' gets split amongst Chevy, Pontiac, Opel, Saab, etc...the result is a group of poorly differentiated, somewhat mediocre product, rather than true weapons to fight Toyota.

None of the cars mentioned above in your post have a USP (unique selling point) rather, they are different strains of Vanilla...one has vanilla beans, one's soft serve, but none really are either a killer appliance or a unique, interesting choice, thus leaving GM stranded in no man's land when it comes to mid-market sedans...So, now they're stuck selling the latest 'deal', resulting in even less desireability...it's a vicious circle...One I'm sure Lutz is trying to break with supposed 'breakthrough' redesigns for the 'bu and Impala...I guess we'll have to wait and see (a familiar refrain, unfortunately)

[Intrepidation]

This scenario would work in the real world, except that GM, in an effort to develop 'all things to all people', ironically, they've devolved into producing 'some things that nobody wants'...that's what happens when the budget for a 'Camry fighter' gets split amongst Chevy, Pontiac, Opel, Saab, etc...the result is a group of poorly differentiated, somewhat mediocre product, rather than true weapons to fight Toyota.

None of the cars mentioned above in your post have a USP (unique selling point) rather, they are different strains of Vanilla...one has vanilla beans, one's soft serve, but none really are either a killer appliance or a unique, interesting choice, thus leaving GM stranded in no man's land when it comes to mid-market sedans...So, now they're stuck selling the latest 'deal', resulting in even less desireability...it's a vicious circle...One I'm sure Lutz is trying to break with supposed 'breakthrough' redesigns for the 'bu and Impala...I guess we'll have to wait and see (a familiar refrain, unfortunately)

Hey I like vanilla! Just not in my cars...

While I'm hardly a fan of the Camry (although the S package on them makes them look alright...blacked out grill does wonders for the car), I also know that Toyota doesn't need any other sedans besides the Camry, cuz aside from that 6-speed auto, it's a well built, compitent machine, more so than the GM midsizers. Also it would seem that, at least in some cases, the Fusion has better build quality, which is pretty amazing.

I also agree that GM doesn't have anything different or enticing enough to be competetive with that one car. The Aura will undoubtedly help, but how much is open to debate. As it stands now, I would actually choose the Camry (with S package) over the Malibu and G6...cuz neither can match it in terms of power and refinement. Also...the Malibu is hideous.

Not too bad actually...I hate the normal models with their fish gill grills still though.

I think the Fusion makes a very good business case for itself against the Camry, and, given a few tweaks (more potent V6, redesigned center stack controls) could easily equal or better it. Also, I believe the Fusion hasn't had any problems yet (though I could be wrong).

I'd take the Fusion over the Camry any day

I'm eagerly awaiting DCX's midsizers...those will be anything but vanilla!

Edited May 15, 2006 by Dodgefan

[regfootball]

if they can ever figure it out how to make it work like that and build better cars then they could really b1tchslap toyota.

Here is how Chevy should attack the midsized/Camry segment

Chevrolet-

FWD Malibu (sized like the current Camry and Impala)

-4 cyl., v6, automatic and manual transmissions (at least on the 4 cyl.) , 'SS' available

RWD/AWD Impala (basic RWD sedan and for cops)

-v6 and v8, one 'SS' model

RWD/AWD Caprice

-v6 and v8 available, more luxurious

Saturn

FWD/AWD Aura (upsized to Accord size)

-4 cyl, 6 cyl and automatic and manual available including DSG equivalent

Pontiac

FWD Grand Am (sized about the size of the current G6 to Impala)

-v6, automatic and manual transmissions, offer high perf GXP

RWD/AWD Grand Prix

-v6 and v8, stick available on high perf model

RWD/AWD Bonneville

-v6 and v8 available, larger version of Grand Prix

Buick

FWD Lacrosse/Regal (entry level), 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, automatic

FWD LeSabre (large) 6 cylinder and 8, automatic

Lucerne (RWD/AWD) 6 cylinder and 8, automatic, similar to Impala size

Park Avenue type (RWD/AWD) 8 cylinder automatic.

Saab

each about the size they are now or a bit larger.

FWD/AWD 9-3 turbo four and turbo 6, auto and manual, DSG type also

RWD/AWD 9-5, turbo six, automatics including DSG type

by 'automatic' i mean automatic with manual control either via paddles, or floor shifter, or both.

the buicks would be the only model i would offer with column shifters and then only 30% of production

Certain people seem so proud of the fact that Toyota has the #1 selling car in the Camry.

  BIG DEAL

  If you walk into a Toyota show room and happen NOT to like the Camry, you have no choice but to either buy it or leave.

  However, if you come into a Chevy showroom and don't like the Malibu, well you can look at the Impala, Epica OR scoot over to a P-B store and look at the G6, Grand Prix or Allure.

  Or perhaps we have forgotten the GENERAL in General Motors.  In Toyota you have the (over)priced Avalon or the Camry -that's it.  I know all about the argument that Toyota can sell SO many cars with one model - that somehow makes them smarter and more profitable.  But the fact remains, if a customer hates one model, I would rather have another two or three to show them, rather than have them walk out.

Edited May 15, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

the 35 duratec will help the fusion and i think they need a performance model, maybe with a stick or DSG type tranny.

Hey I like vanilla! Just not in my cars...

While I'm hardly a fan of the Camry (although the S package on them makes them look alright...blacked out grill does wonders for the car), I also know that Toyota doesn't need any other sedans besides the Camry, cuz aside from that 6-speed auto, it's a well built, compitent machine, more so than the GM midsizers. Also it would seem that, at least in some cases, the Fusion has better build quality, which is pretty amazing.

I also agree that GM doesn't have anything different or enticing enough to be competetive with that one car. The Aura will undoubtedly help, but how much is open to debate. As it stands now, I would actually choose the Camry (with S package) over the Malibu and G6...cuz neither can match it in terms of power and refinement. Also...the Malibu is hideous.

Not too bad actually...I hate the normal models with their fish gill grills still though.

I think the Fusion makes a very good business case for itself against the Camry, and, given a few tweaks (more potent V6, redesigned center stack controls) could easily equal or better it. Also, I believe the Fusion hasn't had any problems yet (though I could be wrong).

I'd take the Fusion over the Camry any day

I'm eagerly awaiting DCX's midsizers...those will be anything but vanilla!

[The O.C.]

if they can ever figure it out how to make it work like that and build better cars then they could really b1tchslap toyota.

Here is how Chevy should attack the midsized/Camry segment

Chevrolet-

FWD Malibu (sized like the current Camry and Impala)

-4 cyl., v6, automatic and manual transmissions (at least on the 4 cyl.) , 'SS' available

RWD/AWD Impala (basic RWD sedan and for cops)

-v6 and v8, one 'SS' model

RWD/AWD Caprice

-v6 and v8 available, more luxurious

Saturn

FWD/AWD Aura (upsized to Accord size)

-4 cyl, 6 cyl and automatic and manual available including DSG equivalent

Pontiac

FWD Grand Am (sized about the size of the current G6 to Impala)

-v6, automatic and manual transmissions, offer high perf GXP

RWD/AWD Grand Prix

-v6 and v8, stick available on high perf model

RWD/AWD Bonneville

-v6 and v8 available, larger version of Grand Prix

Buick

FWD Lacrosse/Regal (entry level), 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, automatic

FWD LeSabre (large) 6 cylinder and 8, automatic

Lucerne (RWD/AWD) 6 cylinder and 8, automatic, similar to Impala size

Park Avenue type (RWD/AWD)  8 cylinder automatic.

Saab

each about the size they are now or a bit larger.

FWD/AWD 9-3  turbo four and turbo 6, auto and manual, DSG type also

RWD/AWD 9-5, turbo six, automatics including DSG type

by 'automatic' i mean automatic with manual control either via paddles, or floor shifter, or both.

the buicks would be the only model i would offer with column shifters and then only 30% of production

Your post plays BEAUTIFULLY into my argument (that Croc gave me &#036;h&#33; over) of GM having too many models and too many divisions.

Just look at your post without reading it....look at how many models and divisions you are trying to rationalize in taking on one segment (midsize) and it's best-selling car, Camry.....

[CARBIZ]

But the Camry is "best selling" because if you walk into a Toyota store, you have no choice but to buy one.

Look at what GM has done with the large cars: first the Grand Prix in 2004, then the Allure in 2005 and then the Impala. Each model arguably better than the previous. GM building on learning experiences from the predecessor.

Don't like the Impala? Look at the Malibu or the G-6 or the Allure. Don't like the Camry? Tough. Don't like the Accord? Too bad.

Sure, maybe Toyota can make more money off one model, but if GM can take advantage of platform sharing and do it well (unlike the LeSabre/88 BS of 15 years ago), then the advantage goes to GM.

[bowtie_dude]

Your post plays BEAUTIFULLY into my argument (that Croc gave me &#036;h&#33; over) of GM having too many models and too many divisions.

Just look at your post without reading it....look at how many models and divisions you are trying to rationalize in taking on one segment (midsize) and it's best-selling car, Camry.....

Without consolidating down to one division, Chevrolet, there's no way GM can manage ONE car to outsell the Camry. GM's strongest asset is also their weakest, in some ways, in that they have different divisions for different people. The problem for decades though, is that basically each division had the exact same car that was only slightly differentiated and had options packaged differently.

[regfootball]

I'm not sure why it is a problem?

Since so many folks buy Camrys it just goes to show how easy it is to breed non independent thinkers and mindless followers in this country too.

I don't think what i proposed was very many models. You also must keep in mind that many of those models are global as well, so you are leveraging global resources. and I had only about three sedan platforms to cover small mid-mid-large cars.

I'm so f\/cking tired of people saying GM has too many models. these are the same asshole jerkoff pricks in wall street and the press that said GM and Ford had to chase every little market niche, back around 2000 or so. "The Asians and Germans" were putting out so many specialty models and America was only selling bread and butter cars and trucks. Now, they diversify and go into niches and BOOM, TOO MANY MODELS!

Example...the SSR...BUILD IT! so chevy does. then what. no sales.

the problem isn't too many models. Its whetehr or not they f\/ck em up.

The SSR was a porker and slow and expensive. Add power, drop the price, and put it on a diet and you sell by the truckload.

GM needs all its brands and all its models. They just need to build them better.

What good is a G6 if that's pontiacs only sedan? that would be like telling BMW to stop building the 5 and 7 series.

why give up brands and models? that is your chance to blanket the market like toyota only wishes it could.

Your post plays BEAUTIFULLY into my argument (that Croc gave me &#036;h&#33; over) of GM having too many models and too many divisions.

Just look at your post without reading it....look at how many models and divisions you are trying to rationalize in taking on one segment (midsize) and it's best-selling car, Camry.....

Edited May 16, 2006 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

I'm not sure why it is a problem?

Since so many folks buy Camrys it just goes to show how easy it is to breed non independent thinkers and mindless followers in this country too.

I don't think what i proposed was very many models.  You also must keep in mind that many of those models are global as well, so you are leveraging global resources.  and I had only about three sedan platforms to cover small mid-mid-large cars.

I'm so f\/cking tired of people saying GM has too many models.  these are the same asshole jerkoff pricks in wall street and the press that said GM and Ford had to chase every little market niche, back around 2000 or so.  "The Asians and Germans" were putting out so many specialty models and America was only selling bread and butter cars and trucks.  Now, they diversify and go into niches and BOOM, TOO MANY MODELS!

Example...the SSR...BUILD IT!  so chevy does.  then what.  no sales.

the problem isn't too many models.  Its whetehr or not they f\/ck em up.

The SSR was a porker and slow and expensive.  Add power, drop the price, and put it on a diet and you sell by the truckload.

GM needs all its brands and all its models.  They just need to build them better.

What good is a G6 if that's pontiacs only sedan?  that would be like telling BMW to stop building the 5 and 7 series.

why give up brands and models?  that is your chance to blanket the market like toyota only wishes it could.

Another occasion where we agree reg There's nothing wrong with GM having a lot of models..it's just that in the past they have looked almost identical and/or suck. Make great models that look unique to the brand and perform uniquely and GM wouldn't have any problems selling them.

[The O.C.]

I'm not sure why it is a problem?

Since so many folks buy Camrys it just goes to show how easy it is to breed non independent thinkers and mindless followers in this country too.

I don't think what i proposed was very many models.  You also must keep in mind that many of those models are global as well, so you are leveraging global resources.  and I had only about three sedan platforms to cover small mid-mid-large cars.

I'm so f\/cking tired of people saying GM has too many models.  these are the same asshole jerkoff pricks in wall street and the press that said GM and Ford had to chase every little market niche, back around 2000 or so.  "The Asians and Germans" were putting out so many specialty models and America was only selling bread and butter cars and trucks.  Now, they diversify and go into niches and BOOM, TOO MANY MODELS!

Example...the SSR...BUILD IT!  so chevy does.  then what.  no sales.

the problem isn't too many models.  Its whetehr or not they f\/ck em up.

The SSR was a porker and slow and expensive.  Add power, drop the price, and put it on a diet and you sell by the truckload.

GM needs all its brands and all its models.  They just need to build them better.

What good is a G6 if that's pontiacs only sedan?  that would be like telling BMW to stop building the 5 and 7 series.

why give up brands and models?  that is your chance to blanket the market like toyota only wishes it could.

<sigh>

PLEASE don't confuse your well-deserved enthusiasm for GM's products with the desire to actually see the corporation SURVIVE!

There's no way, IMHO, they can continue to afford to allocate resources for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and all other related costs for SO many divisions and models for what looks like will most likely bottom out at around a BEST of maybe 20% total marketshare????????? (if they are lucky?)

We see this point made SIMPLY in the powerful marketing launch of the new Camry.....versus the miniscule budget GM allows for a comparable AURA....or even an Impala......

That's just ONE example.....

How absolutely superior COULD the new Impala have been if all those dollars for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and etc., didn't have to be ALSO allocated to Buick for a LaCrosse and Pontiac for a Grand Prix at pretty much the same time.....?

(LIKE I've always said....it's not an easy solution, but to me, seems an inevitable one.......that is, reducing the complexity of the corporation's product structure.)

As much as I liked Oldsmobiles, it WAS a costly, yet proper, first step. Maybe it should have been Buick....or Pontiac....that I won't argue....but that first step HAD to be made.

[regfootball]

so only sell the impala and your market share goes down further.

[pow]

<sigh>

PLEASE don't confuse your well-deserved enthusiasm for GM's products with the desire to actually see the corporation SURVIVE!

There's no way, IMHO, they can continue to afford to allocate resources for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and all other related costs for SO many divisions and models for what looks like will most likely bottom out at around a BEST of maybe 20% total marketshare????????? (if they are lucky?)

We see this point made SIMPLY in the powerful marketing launch of the new Camry.....versus the miniscule budget GM allows for a comparable AURA....or even an Impala......

That's just ONE example.....

How absolutely superior COULD the new Impala have been if all those dollars for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and etc., didn't have to be ALSO allocated to Buick for a LaCrosse and Pontiac for a Grand Prix at pretty much the same time.....?

(LIKE I've always said....it's not an easy solution, but to me, seems an inevitable one.......that is, reducing the complexity of the corporation's product structure.)

As much as I liked Oldsmobiles, it WAS a costly, yet proper, first step.  Maybe it should have been Buick....or Pontiac....that I won't argue....but that first step HAD to be made.

Toyota makes the ES350 in addition to the Camry and Avalon. Similarly, a LaCrosse, Malibu, and Impala make sense in GM's lineup, because they (should) target different markets. Giving Saturn unique products only makes sense because Opel is to stay and their dealer network exists. Saab is Saab. That only leaves Pontiac, but hey, isn't Toyota making a Scion sports sedan?

Edited May 16, 2006 by empowah

[Northstar]

<sigh>

PLEASE don't confuse your well-deserved enthusiasm for GM's products with the desire to actually see the corporation SURVIVE!

There's no way, IMHO, they can continue to afford to allocate resources for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and all other related costs for SO many divisions and models for what looks like will most likely bottom out at around a BEST of maybe 20% total marketshare????????? (if they are lucky?)

We see this point made SIMPLY in the powerful marketing launch of the new Camry.....versus the miniscule budget GM allows for a comparable AURA....or even an Impala......

That's just ONE example.....

How absolutely superior COULD the new Impala have been if all those dollars for engineering, design, product planning, advertising, marketing, and etc., didn't have to be ALSO allocated to Buick for a LaCrosse and Pontiac for a Grand Prix at pretty much the same time.....?

(LIKE I've always said....it's not an easy solution, but to me, seems an inevitable one.......that is, reducing the complexity of the corporation's product structure.)

As much as I liked Oldsmobiles, it WAS a costly, yet proper, first step.  Maybe it should have been Buick....or Pontiac....that I won't argue....but that first step HAD to be made.

In the future Buicks (at least some of them - NG LaCrosse will be) will be the same as the ones made in China much like how Saturns will be Opels. This will help to cut costs and give MG more money to invest in Chevy and Pontiac.

IMO, GM's midsize to large sedan lineup should look something like this:

Epsilon II Models

Malibu

Covers lower end of the segment, takes on Sonata, some Accords, some Camrys, some Altimas. 2.4L standard, HVV6(s) optional.

9-3

Keep target as-is.

LaCrosse

ES350 would be the target. Focus on luxury rather than sport. Lower-level LaCrosses would also target high-end CamCords.

Aura

Should be a less-expensive Passat without all the high-end goodies. Let the LaCrosse and possibly 9-3 take care of upper Passats. Also targets high-end CamCords.

Zeta Models

Impala

Takes on Charger but also would offer an alternative to lower Avalons. Comfort would be a priority over sport. A pretty similar target to the current model but with much better execution.

Grand Prix

This would be smaller than the Impala and focus on sport rather than comfort. Should target the TL, etc. GM could use the Commodore with different sheetmetal to cut costs.

Lucerne

Similar to current model. Targets Avalon, 300, and even some Lexi, RL, and possibly lower E-Class and A6s. Much bigger than the Grand Prix, allowing them to share the same showroom.

Kappa II Models (this is obviously somewhat speculation - but pretend we know it's coming)

G6

Smaller than the current model and would be the sportiest midsize sedan. Think a slightly larger BMW 3-Series/Lexus IS starting around $20k with an I4 and moving up to $30k for a loaded GXP with 300+hp. Holden would get a version to cut costs.

"Skylark"

I don't like the name but couldn't think of anything better. I'm not sure if this could happen, but Buick needs something to attrack young buyers. Maybe this should just be a four-place convertible, basically a mini-Velite.

----------------------------------------

GM has an advantage if it chooses to clearly focus each brand. No other automaker can cover all segments of the market and offer something for everyone. The problem is that right now GM's brands are not focused and greatly overlap with each other. Besides styling, not much seperates the G6 and Malibu, and the same goes for Grand Prix and Impala. Pontiac needs to be totally seperate from Chevy, and I think Saturn is going to be. Buick just needs to move farther upscale and it will be fine.

[pow]

Yep. I think in the US, for the most part...

Saturn = Opel

Chevy cars = Daewoo

Pontiac = Holden

Cadillac global

Buick global

Saab global