Cadillac Renaissance: Miracle or Mirage?

[The O.C.]

they are in a process of revamping their entire image and gaining the elusive street cred and recognition that has been sorely missing for years.  minus the pimps.  and well now i guess the rappers.  hey its the stuff legends are made from. 

the entire face of cadillac has changed, hence the rebirth thus the term that has been applied is renaissance, cmon now, youre from canada,a  you should know this better than us Americans.

Comment #1.......the "rebirth" began with the pimps and rappers with the Escalade. Cadillac is not succeeding in "revamping their entire image" they have succeeded in revamping the Escalade and CTS.....(and yes they've done those cars quite nicely.)

Comment #2......no...the "entire" face of Cadillac has not changed. STS is nothing but bland in the extreme with the exception of the CTS-like headlights and grille. From there on back, the car is a styling disaster. DTS? Well, I wouldn't call a vehicle like the DTS as an example of Cadillac's "revamped image" or their "new face."

[enzl]

I'll take the middle ground:

Caddy's turnaround is 'renaissance-like' - however- The STS & (esp.) the SRX have not met sales targets...it's thinner air and re-conquest becomes unlikely, but aggressive growth amongst newcomers fuels most of the sales success.

Get 'em to come back and increase sales over 300K---the BRX should sell in the 50K range and the new CTS should reinvigorate the CTS' sparkling sales in its' 4th full year out.

No 'Mission Accomplished' yet...but possible, very possible.

Hands down the best $ GM has spent in the past 10 years is Caddy's (maybe Daewoo a close second, $ 4 $.)

[deftonesfan867]

Wow, this turned into a heated debate. I do agree that Cadillac still has some work to do, but however they are ALOT better off than a few years ago. That's something we should all agree upon.

[The O.C.]

I do agree that Cadillac still has some work to do, but however they are ALOT better off than a few years ago. That's something we should all agree upon.

And we do, believe it or not....

But I for one don't want to let them off the hook for lackluster products such as STS (boooooring), SRX (one I actually like...sales numbers or not) , DTS (certainly not pointing the way for where Caddy should be going), and even the XLR (an also-ran in its segment).....

CTS and Escalade are the ones that have really seemed to push the image of Cadillac forward where it should be.

To keep the momentum going that was started by Escalade and CTS, the new (range-topping sedan at that) STS that came out after the CTS should have been nothing short of yet another blockbuster styling, packaging, and engineering marvel that did nothing but take off from where the CTS ended.....to say it came up way short of that target is an understatement.

If they don't fix the rest of the line in a FAST HURRY, all the effort, time, and money put into the rebirth will have been lost.

[Flybrian]

I don't know why people keep raggin on the DTS. It has the crappy occupation of keeping the traditional set in the fold with full knowledge it'll die very soon. For what it is, its a good car.

[balthazar]

The only really interesting statistical observance from the data is the growth in sales for the luxury brands from 01 - 05.  On average each brand increased sales by 50k unit per year.

Your statements is actually "spin" and not statistically valid in explaining the data.

No; the overall volume increase is the 'only thing interesting' if you have some reason not to look at individual marque performance.

And tho I commend anyone who bucks the media's SOP, in this case it only serves a particular agenda. This data should be extrapolated in the same manner as customary by the media outlets, hence the percentages. Every general media piece on GM makes a point of mentioning marketshare percentages far and away more often then volume changes.

This is the exact same treatment with no spin.

And what's with Infinit's mathematically invalid?  What the hell is that?  Since when is 6% of this market invalid?  For the record, Infiniti went from 6% to 9%.also, of note, total sales increased 23% from 1,216,599 to 1,497584

infiniti's numbers are 'invalid' for purposes of comparison because in the realm of percentages, an extremely low initial volume with a similar gain in volume over the same period will return an artificially inflated percentage. For comparison purposes it skews the scale.

Allow me to illustrate:

If Company A sells 4 cars in '01 and 6 in '02 (2 more units), their percentage gain is 50%. If Company B sells 100 cars in '01 and 102 in '02 (2 more units), their percentage gain is 2%.

Tho the volume increases are the same, the percentages paint a slightly different picture. infiniti's starting volume was less than half any of the others I used.

From an individual business standpoint, infiniti's 3% increase is comparitively excellent. There; feathers smoothed?

[Mr.Krinkle]

Comment #1.......the "rebirth" began with the pimps and rappers with the Escalade.  Cadillac is not succeeding in "revamping their entire image" they have succeeded in revamping the Escalade and CTS.....(and yes they've done those cars quite nicely.)

Comment #2......no...the "entire" face of Cadillac has not changed.  STS is nothing but bland in the extreme with the exception of the CTS-like headlights and grille.  From there on back, the car is a styling disaster.  DTS?  Well, I wouldn't call a vehicle like the DTS as an example of Cadillac's "revamped image" or their "new face."

Actually, it was the 70's el dorados that became the first, original pimp mobile.

cadillac has become so "cool" again that things have just come around full circle.

the brand has been recognized by rappers and inducted(indicted?) back into the culture after a long abscence. nobody that i can recall wanted to trick out the etc or catera.

as far has "changing their face"-- how can you say its not. when was the last 2 seat roadster. when did they ever have a truck? the design and direction is vastly different. if somebody gets a nose job or an eyebrow tuck the face is different. it may not be accurate but its certainly not the same anymore. i think youre gripe is that its not complete, and that may be so but you gotta restart somewhere. its by no means time to break out the bubbly, theres still plenty of work left. i do however think its encouraging at this point. i cant even imagine what you were saying or thinking 7 or 8 years ago when they were really taking in water.

personally, i dont think the sts is all that bad. as far as price and packages and what not i couldnt tell you but theres a good foundation there. at some point i dont see why that car cant come around. luxury buyers are quite picky and loyal at the same time. it will be interesting to see where this model goes in the next couple of years.

i understand you dont like the dts but out of the whole lineup it is still the most likely to be considered by the original cadillac buyer. the "old man" car. slanted or not you cant neglect or foresake an entire demographic. if there was no dts cadillac would be accused of alienating their original fan base and core consumer market.

now, im not saying it couldnt be better but i wouldnt be ragging on it so much. the cars not meant for me the same a suburban or porsche isnt meant for me.

[CARBIZ]

Wow, this thread has been wobbling around like a drunk at last call! I'd like to second Krinkle's thoughts about the DTS and chime in that Cadillac should not necessarily be chasing BMW.

Since when did luxury become hijacked by 0-60 times? Perhaps Pontiac should be chasing BMW.

There are a lot of well-heeled 60+ people out there and the majority of them would rather have a Buick, but it is the rags that are telling them otherwise.

[ellives]

The DTS should evolve to match and surpass the 7 and S. It has significant hurdles to overcome in achieving this goal. Specifically it needs to move to RWD which will not likely happen in the very near future but it must at some stage to compete. The other major area is what I call "depth." It needs to evolve to a place where every detail of the operation of the car has been considered and been addressed. People who buy the "standard of the world," whatever that happens to be, expect everything to work intuitively and at the top of the game. The DTS is not this of course at the current time.

Wow, this thread has been wobbling around like a drunk at last call!  I'd like to second Krinkle's thoughts about the DTS and chime in that Cadillac should not necessarily be chasing BMW. 

  Since when did luxury become hijacked by 0-60 times?  Perhaps Pontiac should be chasing BMW.

  There are a lot of well-heeled 60+ people out there and the majority of them would rather have a Buick, but it is the rags that are telling them otherwise.

[evok]

The DTS and STS most likely will be merged as one vehicle when the replacement arrives later in the decade.

[97regalGS]

infiniti's numbers are 'invalid' for purposes of comparison because in the realm of percentages, an extremely low initial volume with a similar gain in volume over the same period will return an artificially inflated percentage. For comparison purposes it skews the scale.

Allow me to illustrate:

If Company A sells 4 cars in '01 and 6 in '02 (2 more units), their percentage gain is 50%. If Company B sells 100 cars in '01 and 102 in '02 (2 more units), their percentage gain is 2%.

Tho the volume increases are the same, the percentages paint a slightly different picture. infiniti's starting volume was less than half any of the others I used.

From an individual business standpoint, infiniti's 3% increase is comparitively excellent. There; feathers smoothed?

feathers were not ruffled. just making a point.

go ask Bob Lutz if he'd rather Cadillac have the 'insignificant' 66,000 additional sales that Infiniti had in 2005 vs. 2001, then come try to explain why it's not 'relevant'.

[97regalGS]

the article should have been titled "Cadillac - Relevant Again." Because prior to the CTS and fluke star status of the Escalade, Cadillac was not, at least not in this segment.

Edited May 26, 2006 by 97regalGS

[finlandia]

I couldn't agree more. The next-generation CTS has a chance to displace the 3-series/C-class/A4/IS-series in the minds of many people. The current one is a good starting point. It gets Cadillac's foot in the door. Flub the next CTS and there will be no Cadillac once the DTS-buying retirees die off and fashion moves away from the Escalade. So it's neither miracle nor mirage. Just an opportunity.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Interesting Evok-so basically, CTS would rise up to cover both it and STS's current size position; the next STS would be more or less slightly larger, and a new XTS or ULS-type vehicle would/could slot above? And this would leave more room for BLS, if I'm following correctly?

[evok]

Word Mark DTS-L

Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Motor land vehicles namely, automobiles, sport utility vehicles, trucks, vans, engines therefor and structural parts thereof

Standard Characters Claimed

Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK

Design Search Code

Serial Number 78871002

Filing Date April 27, 2006

Current Filing Basis 1B

Original Filing Basis 1B

Owner (APPLICANT) General Motors Corporation CORPORATION MICHIGAN 300 Renaissance Center, P.O. Box 300 Detroit MICHIGAN 482653000

Attorney of Record Timothy G. Gorbatoff

Type of Mark TRADEMARK

Register PRINCIPAL

Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

[ehaase]

I speculated on AH-HA's old blog that the STS and DTS should be replaced by one vehicle someday. The current STS is too close in size to the CTS. But Cadillac is years away from having the reputation for a more prestigious sedan.

Edited May 26, 2006 by ehaase

[evok]

The current STS makes absolutly no sense. The STS is priced right on top of the DTS and the there really is not reason to move up from a CTS to an STS. The vehicles are too close to the same size. The V8 option in the STS is not a high draw in sales or good reason for buyers to spend the premium on the current STS over the CTS. For the Chinese market, there will be an STS-L with a longer wheelbase.

Now, if Cadillac consolodates the DTS and STS on sigma, with 2 different wheelbases, they can cover the same market with one car in one plant. The current STS needs to grow to better differentiate the vehicle from the CTS and the fwd DTS needs to go away. These vehicles can be offered with the current STS powertrain offerenings. Call the car the DTS and DTS-L because of the loyal following of the current Deville/DTS buyer. Starting length is 198in with a 5 inch stretch in the rear for the L.

Edited May 26, 2006 by evok

[ZL-1]

Now, if Cadillac consolodates the DTS and STS on sigma, with 2 different wheelbases, they can cover the same market with one car in one plant.  The current STS needs to grow to better differentiate the vehicle from the CTS and the fwd DTS needs to go away.  These vehicles can be offered with the current STS powertrain offerenings.  Call the car the DTS and DTS-L because of the loyal following of the current Deville/DTS buyer.  Starting length is 198in with a 5 inch stretch in the rear for the L.

Interesting thought!

I believe that, with the BLS coming online and with a 2nd-gen BLS possibly making it to the US, the CTS will have to be pushed upmarket, and the next STS (your DTS / DTS-L) will have to become the 7-series / S-Class / A8 competitor.

[The O.C.]

i understand you dont like the dts but out of the whole lineup it is still the most likely to be considered by the original cadillac buyer.  the "old man" car.  slanted or not you cant neglect or foresake an entire demographic.  if there was no dts cadillac would be accused of alienating their original fan base and core consumer market.

now, im not saying  it couldnt be better but i wouldnt be ragging on it so much.  the cars not meant for me the same a suburban or porsche isnt meant for me.

Okay......then there's a big disconnect somewhere at Cadillac (regarding the DTS.)

As I stated in another thread, or maybe it was earlier in this thread, many years ago, GM publicly stated that the mission for Cadillac was to move upscale to take on BMW and Mercedes-Benz DIRECTLY (hence CTS).....leaving Buick in the position to take up where Cadillac used to be....in other words, that "old man's car."

In fact, that was the mantra that was given to us back before I ever quit GM.....some 7, 8, 9 years ago.

You can't tell me that you don't agree that the DTS is NOT the type of vehicle that fits that mantra.

In fact, arguably, the Lucerne does a much better job at moving into that "old man" segment with a combination of affordability and luxury with a badge that is almost as prestigious (to an "old man") as the Cadillac brand used to be....(once again...to that "old man.")

[Drew Dowdell]

Okay......then there's a big disconnect somewhere at Cadillac (regarding the DTS.)

As I stated in another thread, or maybe it was earlier in this thread, many years ago, GM publicly stated that the mission for Cadillac was to move upscale to take on BMW and Mercedes-Benz DIRECTLY (hence CTS).....leaving Buick in the position to take up where Cadillac used to be....in other words, that "old man's car."

In fact, that was the mantra that was given to us back before I ever quit GM.....some 7, 8, 9 years ago.

You can't tell me that you don't agree that the DTS is NOT the type of vehicle that fits that mantra.

In fact, arguably, the Lucerne does a much better job at moving into that "old man" segment with a combination of affordability and luxury with a badge that is almost as prestigious (to an "old man") as the Cadillac brand used to be....(once again...to that "old man.")

I agree.... but Cadillac doesn't have an S-Class/7-series/A8 fighter ready to go anytime soon. Should Cadillac just give up those not insignificant sales of the DTS?

Sure it's a Lucerne De Lux.... but they still do get to charge the premium for it.

[The O.C.]

I agree.... but Cadillac doesn't have an S-Class/7-series/A8 fighter ready to go anytime soon.  Should Cadillac just give up those not insignificant sales of the DTS?

Hence the whole point of the "mirage" portion of this thread.

If that truly is where GM should have been moving with the Cadillac brand, (and that HAS been GM's OWN assertion) and they were spilling the mantra about chasing BMW and Benz that long ago, then they should have an S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter on dealer lots RIGHT NOW.

But they don't.

Whose fault is that? GM and Cadillac management.

DTS should never have made this latest iteration. Thinking of it from a Corporate standpoint, Buick can easily, with the right products, pick up any remaining DTS business....don't forget a whole THIRD of DTS production goes to fleets. THAT, GM can certainly do without.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Hence the whole point of the "mirage" portion of this thread.

If that truly is where GM should have been moving with the Cadillac brand, (and that HAS been GM's OWN assertion) and they were spilling the mantra about chasing BMW and Benz that long ago, then they should have an S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter on dealer lots RIGHT NOW.

But they don't.

Whose fault is that?  GM and Cadillac management.

DTS should never have made this latest iteration.  Thinking of it from a Corporate standpoint, Buick can easily, with the right products, pick up any remaining DTS business....don't forget a whole THIRD of DTS production goes to fleets.  THAT, GM can certainly do without.

As much as i like the cadillac name and brand and basically everything that they stand for i just never really saw them competing or even comparing with the bmw's and benz'.

to me they are so different. even the german brands dont necessarily compete with eachother. bmw had that survey not to long ago that found 75% of luxury car buyers dont consider bmw. and that was from the horses mouth(bmw's own survey) and its basically true. pure all out luxury will always be mercedes benz

i dont think conquest sales are all that common or at least significant in this market. there are people who will only buy a benz regardless. and there always will be the bmw for the drivers driver. audi is the odd little duckling and vw is like the bastard child. or maybe the other way around, im not sure...my point is im just not getting the relevance of taking on these cars. the market is pretty much set with regards to whos buying what. lexus has been knocking on this door for a while now.

i know caddy's can get up there in price but never as much as the german brands.

hell, they dont even have a viable 12 cylinder engine. to be taken seriously this market pretty much demands you have one.

cadillac should be more concerned with gaining a better percentage of marketshare from a new than stealing it from the germans who already have their dedicated fanbase.

[ellives]

The "fleet sales are bogus" mantra is getting old. We all recognize they don't make much money on these sales but the point there isn't to make money. It's to fill up the factories with something that generates revenue. Keep in mind this business is all about overhead. If you're factory isn't running at full tilt, you're losing money. Simple.

Did you notice in the recent thread that compared all the major brands and it showed Toyota at 107% capacity and GM at 85%? Any wonder why they sell to fleets? They HAVE to so the overhead costs don't eat them alive along with the union and retirement and healthcare costs.

Hence the whole point of the "mirage" portion of this thread.

If that truly is where GM should have been moving with the Cadillac brand, (and that HAS been GM's OWN assertion) and they were spilling the mantra about chasing BMW and Benz that long ago, then they should have an S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter on dealer lots RIGHT NOW.

But they don't.

Whose fault is that?  GM and Cadillac management.

DTS should never have made this latest iteration.  Thinking of it from a Corporate standpoint, Buick can easily, with the right products, pick up any remaining DTS business....don't forget a whole THIRD of DTS production goes to fleets.  THAT, GM can certainly do without.

[The O.C.]

The "fleet sales are bogus" mantra is getting old. We all recognize they don't make much money on these sales but the point there isn't to make money. It's to fill up the factories with something that generates revenue. Keep in mind this business is all about overhead. If you're factory isn't running at full tilt, you're losing money. Simple.

Did you notice in the recent thread that compared all the major brands and it showed Toyota at 107% capacity and GM at 85%? Any wonder why they sell to fleets? They HAVE to so the overhead costs don't eat them alive along with the union and retirement and healthcare costs.

The whole point I was referring to is "giving up all those DTS sales."

From a corporate standpoint, GM can help fill production capacity with other products such as Lucerne.....or they can <gasp> reduce production capacity.

The underlying them to my recent posts is that DTS does NOT belong with the "new" Cadillac. End of story.

Spin it any way you want, or try to justify the car's existence (in its present form) any way you want....but it's the truth.

Let me ask you this.....if the intention is to keep this type of product, why didn't Cadillac put development money into the DTS in order to make it WAY more competitive, product-wise, in the marketplace therefore more aligning itself properly with Cadillac's new "mantra" and ALSO still offer a full-size Cadillac option to those "old" buyers and fleet accounts?

The car, in it's new redesigned state, is still WAY to geriatric to become any sort of aspirational step-up for people that Cadillac is actually attracting with CTS and Escalade.

[Bimmer325]

The car, in it's new redesigned state, is still WAY to geriatric to become any sort of aspirational step-up for people that Cadillac is actually attracting with CTS and Escalade.

Exactly.

As far as current Cadillac owner stepping up, the STS is generally the end of the line. The DTS caters to an entirely different market (one that GM should relegate to Buick alone), and isn't something that an upsizing CTS or STS owner would likely trade their car in for. Certainly not an effective plan if Cadillac plans on retaining buyers.

[aldw]

An S-class fighter has to be spot on out of the box, with a good V8/V12 combo to match. At the time of the CTS launch, a Caddy revival wasn't a sure thing yet, but now is the right time to get a XTS out.

[ellives]

The whole point I was referring to is "giving up all those DTS sales."

From a corporate standpoint, GM can help fill production capacity with other products such as Lucerne.....or they can <gasp> reduce production capacity.

Easier said than done. They're already at 85% so they know they need to shutter plants.

The underlying them to my recent posts is that DTS does NOT belong with the "new" Cadillac.  End of story.

Spin it any way you want, or try to justify the car's existence (in its present form) any way you want....but it's the truth.

I'm not trying to justify the car in its present form. I'm just telling you WHY it exists. We're agreeing the car needs to transform itself or become extinct at some point. Personally I'd like to see the car made into something competitive with the S/A8/7 series.

Let me ask you this.....if the intention is to keep this type of product, why didn't Cadillac put development money into the DTS in order to make it WAY more competitive, product-wise, in the marketplace therefore more aligning itself properly with Cadillac's new "mantra" and ALSO still offer a full-size Cadillac option to those "old" buyers and fleet accounts?

No one was steering the ship? If I knew the answer, I'd be in Rick W.'s job.

The car, in it's new redesigned state, is still WAY to geriatric to become any sort of aspirational step-up for people that Cadillac is actually attracting with CTS and Escalade.

I'm not convinced people actually "step-up" in the way so many people try to illustrate. In some ways this was the way of the "old" GM where people started with Chevy, moved to Buick then Cadillac. Maybe I'm wrong about this but as I get older I have no intention of moving to a DTS, an S/A8/ or 7 series. It's just not me.

I saw a thread a while back that mention the general population not even being conscious of specific models within a brand. If this is true, the model itself becomes specifically about the size of the car essentially. For instance people know BMW as a "driver's car" so if they put themselves into the category of being a car enthusiast and need a big car, presumably they'd buy a 7 series. A similar story can be said about virtually every brand. I think one of the tricks in today's market is to be recognized for something. The problem for GM's brands is they aren't, and they need to be somehow.

[The O.C.]

For instance people know BMW as a "driver's car" so if they put themselves into the category of being a car enthusiast and need a big car, presumably they'd buy a 7 series. A similar story can be said about virtually every brand. I think one of the tricks in today's market is to be recognized for something. The problem for GM's brands is they aren't, and they need to be somehow.

People aspire to a BMW 3-Series for much the same reasons they do a 7-Series......they want a BMW. The main differences mostly are how much can you afford to pay for a car and what size car do you want?

For the person that desires the Art & Science look of the CTS and appreciates that car's fine-driving, RWD performance AND can afford the $30-$42K price range, they will enjoy owning the CTS.

However, what about the person that can afford much more? Someone that wants the appeal of the CTS but in a larger, more expensive, and more luxurious package? They really have nowhere to go. Certainly a fully-loaded DTS can't fill that bill.....and the STS is really questionable at best as to whether it can fill that bill as well (thanks to Lutz' dumbing-down of the styling for one thing.....)

[balthazar]

Someone is sure buying STSs, and none have had any signs of being fleet/rentals. I see a lot of STSs around my area. I spot them right off- they look pretty nice and unquestionably upscale to my eye. Clear family resemblence, too- I can't see how people who are totally down on the STS would want it to look- like a larger carbon copy of the CTS??? Or are sharper creases everything?

The 7-series has none of the 'flare' of the 3-series yet no one has complained here that it fails to match the specific design of the 3. Of course, BMW loyalists won't see it that way. Each higher tier of BMW get more conservative in design from the next lower one.

[evok]

Someone is sure buying STSs, and none have had any signs of being fleet/rentals. I see a lot of STSs around my area. I spot them right off- they look pretty nice and unquestionably upscale to my eye. Clear family resemblence, too- I can't see how people who are totally down on the STS would want it to look- like a larger carbon copy of the CTS??? Or are sharper creases everything?

The 7-series has none of the 'flare' of the 3-series yet no one has complained here that it fails to match the specific design of the 3. Of course, BMW loyalists won't see it that way. Each higher tier of BMW get more conservative in design from the next lower one.

STS is being out sold by the MB S-Class and just barely outsells the BMW 7 for the firs 4 months of 2006.

And the MSRP for the STS is just about 1/2 the BMW and MB.

The STS is not a strong seller for Cadillac and is outsold by every vehicle that would be considered a direct competitor at its price point except for the Audi A6.

[Croc]

The STS interior certainly doesn't look or feel upscale at all...the mismatching colors, sharp plastic corners, and general lack of soft-touch materials of any kind make it seem very cheap. The only thing the STS has going for it is its performance.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hence the whole point of the "mirage" portion of this thread.

If that truly is where GM should have been moving with the Cadillac brand, (and that HAS been GM's OWN assertion) and they were spilling the mantra about chasing BMW and Benz that long ago, then they should have an S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter on dealer lots RIGHT NOW.

But they don't.

Whose fault is that?  GM and Cadillac management.

DTS should never have made this latest iteration.  Thinking of it from a Corporate standpoint, Buick can easily, with the right products, pick up any remaining DTS business....don't forget a whole THIRD of DTS production goes to fleets.  THAT, GM can certainly do without.

The DTS face lift *had* to cost less then an entirely redesigned platform. GM just didn't have the money to do an entirely new car yet.

While 1/3rd of DTSes are sold to fleets, what about the other 2/3rds of the sales. Isn't the DTS one of the best selling <even after accounting for fleet sales> full sized luxury cars out there?

While fleets aren't as profitable as retail sales, they do contribute to the economies of scale of a model line.

BMW and Benz fleet their cars too, they just don't do it in the U.S. In france I saw a number of Benz C-classes and 3-series diesels as taxi cabs.

[Drew Dowdell]

The car, in it's new redesigned state, is still WAY to geriatric to become any sort of aspirational step-up for people that Cadillac is actually attracting with CTS and Escalade.

Then I'm an odd 27 year old because I've considered the newest DTS as a CTS replacement <STS is too close to the CTS to matter to me> because the roads here in Western PA are so bad driving the CTS, or any harder riding car, gets tiring.

The previous DTS, while I liked it from the exterior, I did not like the interior. The new one has grown on me in higher levels of trim.

[ellives]

It *should* be a natural step to go from the CTS to the STS. It is unfortunate the cars are so similar visually. I'm an enthusiast and I really have to look carefully to detect the difference. There should be a more obvious distinction visually.

Cadillac needs one simple thing and I don't know how to accomplish it. They need to get rid of the reputation of being an "old man's" car. They just can't seem to shake it.

Any ideas?

People aspire to a BMW 3-Series for much the same reasons they do a 7-Series......they want a BMW.  The main differences mostly are how much can you afford to pay for a car and what size car do you want?

For the person that desires the Art & Science look of the CTS and appreciates that car's fine-driving, RWD performance AND can afford the $30-$42K price range, they will enjoy owning the CTS.

However, what about the person that can afford much more?  Someone that wants the appeal of the CTS but in a larger, more expensive, and more luxurious package?  They really have nowhere to go.  Certainly a fully-loaded DTS can't fill that bill.....and the STS is really questionable at best as to whether it can fill that bill as well (thanks to Lutz' dumbing-down of the styling for one thing.....)

[balthazar]

>>"It is unfortunate the cars are so similar visually."<<

BMWs for years and years were nearly impossible to tell apart on the road, tho as O.C. states, that's not of importance to the buyer, who's buying moreso into the brand.

I have no problem telling the Cadillacs apart, especially after seeing CTS's a-plenty since Jan '02:

They really share nothing except the elements of stacked headlights and the slatted eggcrate grille. In fact, tho I like the STS overall, those 'beveled' planes between the grille & headlights annoy me- I'd like to see that treated flatter; more like the CTS.

[RichW5]

The current STS makes absolutly no sense.  The STS is priced right on top of the DTS and the there really is not reason to move up from a CTS to an STS.  The vehicles are too close to the same size.  The V8 option in the STS is not a high draw in sales or good reason for buyers to spend the premium on the current STS over the CTS.  For the Chinese market, there will be an STS-L with a longer wheelbase.

Now, if Cadillac consolodates the DTS and STS on sigma, with 2 different wheelbases, they can cover the same market with one car in one plant.  The current STS needs to grow to better differentiate the vehicle from the CTS and the fwd DTS needs to go away.  These vehicles can be offered with the current STS powertrain offerenings.  Call the car the DTS and DTS-L because of the loyal following of the current Deville/DTS buyer.  Starting length is 198in with a 5 inch stretch in the rear for the L.

BINGO!

One of the reasons for buying a Cadillac has always been interior room and luxury. Cadillac seems to have forgotten both. While I love driving our CTS, it's sorely lacking interior room, when we drive with our grandson (car seat) or friends. Most STS reviews I've read complain about back seat leg room.

While the CTS styling has been state of the art (and science) and should morf to a great looking vehicle in the next gen, the STS is BORING! The last gen FWD STS, which I owned, was boring, still, the interior was luxurious and comfortable and it was a great road car.

Evok's solution should work for Cadillac. I would still keep the STS name. I hate DTS because it sounds like you've got the DT's. How about an STS (198" - 200" long) and an STS Brougham (204" - 207").

The STS Brougham should have every available option as standard equipment and an interior that is equal to the best from Mercedes, BMW and Audi. The only option should be AWD, for drivers in the snow belt.

[The O.C.]

Then I'm an odd 27 year old because I've considered the newest DTS as a CTS replacement

In this instance, you ARE an odd 27 year old.

I think we can all agree that IN GENERAL, the DTS does not typically appeal to consumers below, say, the age of 50....and certainly, IN GENERAL, it does not appeal to anyone below the age of 30.

[The O.C.]

They need to get rid of the reputation of being an "old man's" car. They just can't seem to shake it.

Any ideas?

Yes! Execute a three or four tier lineup of luxury/sport sedans with ALL four of them having the level of execution we've seen with the CTS.

We don't have that with STS and DTS.

[Flybrian]

I'm with Rich. I appreciate and laud everything the current STS is and represents, but give me an '03 STS anyday. Such a handsome car and very identifiable as a Cadillac despite the shocking lack of traditional heritage cues.

[sciguy_0504]

I kind of prefer the look of the STS over that of the CTS. The rear is really the only turnoff and it's a slight turnoff. It's just a shame the interior is not completely up to par.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I kind of prefer the look of the STS over that of the CTS.  The rear is really the only turnoff and it's a slight turnoff.  It's just a shame the interior is not completely up to par.

I saw a black STS-V parked near my work the other day, that car looks amazing. So does the XLR-V I saw near my work the day before. If I had the money I'd buy an STS-V.

[Croc]

It's just a shame the interior is not completely up to par.

Understatement.

[Flybrian]

So, Croc, exactly how many times on one page are you going to dump on the STS' interior?

[Croc]

So, Croc, exactly how many times on one page are you going to dump on the STS' interior?

Once more:

The STS interior blows when compared to the other vehicles in its class.

There; that makes three.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Croc

[ehaase]

The DTS has some of the most uncomfortable seats of any car I have driven. Except for the Northstar V8, I don't find the DTS any more satisfying to drive than one of the big RWD Fords.

[Croc]

The DTS has some of the most uncomfortable seats of any car I have driven.

That's ironic...I find my father's DTS to have the most comfortable seats of any vehicle I have been in. What didn't you like about them?

[ehaase]

That's ironic...I find my father's DTS to have the most comfortable seats of any vehicle I have been in.  What didn't you like about them?

My lower back and right leg ached after driving the car for more than an hour. The same thing happened to me last year in a Ford Focus. I did not have this problem with a Hyundai Sonata I rented in April, a Dodge Neon I rented last August, and I have never had this problem in any Ford with bench seats I have driven.

[Croc]

My lower back and right leg ached after driving the car for more than an hour.  The same thing happened to me last year in a Ford Focus.  I did not have this problem with a Hyundai Sonata I rented in April, a Dodge Neon I rented last August, and I have never had this problem in any Ford with bench seats I have driven.

Your DTS had a bench? That might explain it...my father has the Level 3 Performance Package, and those seats just hold you perfectly.

[Cadillacfan]

Well, I did have a chance to sit in the new DTS and STS interiors and while the DTS has higher quality materials, I found the STS to be more attractive in presentation mostly because it does not look like any other GM interior. I can do without the giant black center HVAC controls but all the gadgets that come in the vehicle make up for its shortcomings.

The CTS has an interior that is just shameful to look at but I love the vehicle overall.

-------

Some friends of the family were looking into getting a new SUV. Their current vehicle is a Lexus RX330 but they have a little girl now and were looking to upgrade in size.

They were interested in the Caddy SRX (a rarity in southern california) because they liked its size and looks and the fact that they would get a great deal with GM’s friends and family discount with the help of my father who is employed by the company.

Being one of the few people in my family who knows anything about cars, they came to me for advice about the vehicle (don’t laugh) I warned them before they tested it that the interior would be a significant step down from their Lexus and sure enough, it was. It seemed terribly cheap for them considering the price of the vehicle. They are now looking for another, similar vehicle.

Now, they liked the ride and all the features but the interior was so bad that they didn’t want to spend that much money on it when other vehicles in the same class offer so much more.

I did mention that the vehicle was getting a significant upgrade in a year or so but they needed a new vehicle now.

That's pretty sad.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[ehaase]

Your DTS had a bench?  That might explain it...my father has the Level 3 Performance Package, and those seats just hold you perfectly.

No, the rental DTS had bucket seats. The problem may have been that I am 42, am 20 lbs overweight, and am more comfortable with bench seats. I did enjoy the Northstar V8 and everything else about the car (except the gas mileage).