Cadillac Renaissance: Miracle or Mirage?

[enzl]

Interesting: 'it's no longer large glaring blemishes that make them bad'... but it's a half-dozen tiny things, and the vehicles are still "bad"? I can't see it from here. Real vs. fake wood is immaterial if people have to be told the wood is real- all of it feels like plastic anyway.

Lots of vehicles have 'mouse fur' headliners yet that fact is seldom if ever mention unless we're reading about GMs.

I have also yet to see a "perfect" toyota- none have ever wowed me upon inspection or even matched the general level of hype accompanying the loopy T logo.

And if any vehicle in the CTS-V class defines the term 'boy-racer', it's the M3. That front bumper is straight out of a ricer catalog, and the rest of the gingerbread looks so tacked on and... yes; smacks of being an after-thought. So there you go- different people, different opinions.

I think you might be confusing the use of 'bad' which I think really means 'not as good', which, is I think, what's intended. When you have a brand that's on the 'outs' for whatever reason, you need to exceed the class expectations, and give the doubters ammunition to jump...

yes, you're fighting a herd mentality, but, it has to be dealt with. Style turns quickly and brands can recover... IMO, the only way is to be demonstrably better in ONE facet that matters across the spectrum. 300C did that for Chrysler's brand, and the CTS did that for Caddy.

People love or hate 'em, but you always notice a CTS or a 300...GM needs to absorb the lessons learned and leapfrog the competition...the 3.6 w/DI and 325+ hp must appear at launch, if possible. More importantly, killer execution at all levels is needed.

The CTS will definitively prove if Lutz can change GM. Solstice tells me he has a chance. We'll see.

[ellives]

"Execution" is essential and is probably assumed. It's tough enough to come up with a successful plan. If they can't execute it, they're dead.

I think you might be confusing the use of 'bad' which I think really means 'not as good', which, is I think, what's intended. When you have a brand that's on the 'outs' for whatever reason, you need to exceed the class expectations, and give the doubters ammunition to jump...

yes, you're fighting a herd mentality, but, it has to be dealt with. Style turns quickly and brands can recover... IMO, the only way is to be demonstrably better in ONE facet that matters across the spectrum. 300C did that for Chrysler's brand, and the CTS did that for Caddy.

People love or hate 'em, but you always notice a CTS or a 300...GM needs to absorb the lessons learned and leapfrog the competition...the 3.6 w/DI and 325+ hp must appear at launch, if possible. More importantly, killer execution at all levels is needed.

The CTS will definitively prove if Lutz can change GM. Solstice tells me he has a chance. We'll see.

[evok]

CaYear ...............................2005 .....2004..... 2003 .........2002....... 2001

Acura.............................. 209,610... 198,919... 170,918... 165,552 ...170,469

BMW division................... 266,200... 260,079... 240,859... 232,032... 213,127

Cadillac........................... 235,002... 234,217... 216,090...199,748... 172,083

Lexus ............................. 302,895... 287,927... 259,755... 234,109... 223,983

Lincoln ........................... 123,207... 139,016... 158,839 ...150,057... 158,934

Mercedes-Benz................ 224,269... 221,366...218,551... 213,225 ...206,638

Infiniti............................. 136,401 ...130,986 ...118,655.... 87,911.... 71,365

Edited May 23, 2006 by evok

[Satty]

CaYear ...............................2005 .....2004..... 2003 .........2002....... 2001

Acura.............................. 209,610... 198,919... 170,918... 165,552 ...170,469

BMW division................... 266,200... 260,079... 240,859... 232,032... 213,127

Cadillac........................... 235,002... 234,217... 216,090...199,748... 172,083

Lexus ............................. 302,895... 287,927... 259,755... 234,109... 223,983

Lincoln ........................... 123,207... 139,016... 158,839 ...150,057... 158,934

Mercedes-Benz................ 224,269... 221,366...218,551... 213,225 ...206,638

Infiniti............................. 136,401 ...130,986 ...118,655.... 87,911.... 71,365

How long before Ford sells fewer Lincolns than BMW sells 3ers? I bet they already do if you take out fleet sales.

[evok]

How long before Ford sells fewer Lincolns than BMW sells 3ers?  I bet they already do if you take out fleet sales.

Let us ask the bigger question "What Cadillac Renaissance?"

The recent sales data suggest that Cadillac has stayed pace with the larger and expanding luxury market.

As for Lincoln - I just put that in for old time sake!

In reality Fords come in three trim levels.

There is the base Ford, the mid-level Ford Mercury and the up-level Ford Lincoln.

[Satty]

In reality Fords come in three trim levels.

There is the base Ford, the mid-level Ford Mercury and the up-level Ford Lincoln.

In the case of the Panters its more like, "Almost dead and kind of poor" Ford, "Almost dead and less poor" Mercury and "Almost dead with a nice retirement fund" Lincoln.

[Drew Dowdell]

I see how you left out BMW 3 (105k) and the Lexus IS statements.

The 3-series comes in convertible, wagon and coupe forms while also having a base price in the high 20s. Cadillac doing 60k in sales when they thought they'd only do ~30k is a sales smash. Now what GM/Cadillac needs to do is fill out the rest of the CTS lineup.

[Drew Dowdell]

Let us ask the bigger question "What Cadillac Renaissance?"

The recent sales data suggest that Cadillac has stayed pace with the larger and expanding luxury market.

The Renaissance is Cadillac's move back to mainstream desireability. Sure there are people out there that still have the "Edgar and Mabel Bluehair" image of Cadillac, but that image is fading.

In 2001 were there any Cadillac that could be put in a compairson test with any AMG or M-series cars?

Today Cadillac has cars that run with the best of Europe. They win some and they lose some, but the fact that they're even invited now is a huge start.

[evok]

The 3-series comes in convertible, wagon and coupe forms while also having a base price in the high 20s. Cadillac doing 60k in sales when they thought they'd only do ~30k is a sales smash. Now what GM/Cadillac needs to do is fill out the rest of the CTS lineup.

What?

So subrtract off 15k - 20k 3 - Series convertibles, wagons and coupes BMW sells in the US from the 105k total if you feel the numbers hide something.

The Base Price of a Cadillac CTS is $29,990.

The Base Price of the BMW 3 Series is $30,900.

Cadillac targeted annual sales in the 50 - 60k/year volume not 30k as you suggest.

Now what GM/Cadillac needs to do is fill out the rest of the CTS lineup.

If GM can develop a global business case for other iterations. Cadillac will not be able to sell enough coupes in the US to justify the investment. Remember that BMW sell 300k 3 Series vehicles globally. Cadillac only sells about 60k CTSs globally. That number is very similar to what is sold in the US.

[Drew Dowdell]

What?

So subrtract off 15k - 20k 3 - Series convertibles, wagons and coupes BMW sells in the US from the 105k total if you feel the numbers hide something.

The Base Price of a Cadillac CTS is $29,990.

The Base Price of the BMW 3 Series is $30,900.

Cadillac targeted annual sales in the 50 - 60k/year volume not 30k as you suggest.

If GM can develop a global business case for other iterations.  Cadillac will not be able to sell enough coupes in the US to justify the investment.  Remember that BMW sell 300k 3 Series vehicles globally.  Cadillac only sells about 60k CTSs globally.  That number is very similar to what is sold in the US.

The last gen 3-series had a lower base price.

60k CTSes v. 80k 3-series sedans is a LOT closer than 105k of all 3-series.

Lutz has already stated that the next CTS will be available as a coupe....

If the CTS gets the interiors we've seen from 60-Minutes and pricing remains similar... the CTS really WILL be a 5-series at a 3-series price.

[Cory Wolfe]

What I don't understand, is how anyone can say the STS doesn't look that good. I fell in love with that car when I saw one driving around, even more than I like the CTS. I think some here may be justifying it sales numbers(not on purpose) by saying the car is watered down. I think if it were selling like crazy, many here would have praised it's beautiful styling. The STS makes the CTS look chunky and oddly proportioned in comparison.

Um... The STS looks watered down regardless of sales. I've said since before it was on sale.

[evok]

The Renaissance is Cadillac's move back to mainstream desireability. Sure there are people out there that still have the "Edgar and Mabel Bluehair" image of Cadillac, but that image is fading.

In 2001 were there any Cadillac that could be put in a compairson test with any AMG or M-series cars?

Today Cadillac has cars that run with the best of Europe. They win some and they lose some, but the fact that they're even invited now is a huge start.

The desireablity of Cadillac to the mainstream public is debatable and subjective!

But the objective sales trend has shown Cadillac to be growing WITH the larger luxury market as a whole and not outpacing it as the term Renaissance might suggest.

[Satty]

If the CTS gets the interiors we've seen from 60-Minutes and pricing remains similar... the CTS really WILL be a 5-series at a 3-series price.

This brings up a question, where does that leave buyers who want a 3-Series at a 3-Series price? Something closer to the 178in lengther of the 3er than the 190in of the 5er or CTS. My Solara is 190 inches long and it can be a bitch to parallel park and drive in heavy traffic, though the huge blind spot doesn't help. So why not go down in size and cater to a market that obviously exists?

[evok]

The last gen 3-series had a lower base price.

60k CTSes v. 80k 3-series sedans is a LOT closer than 105k of all 3-series.

20,000 units is a large sales difference at a $35,000 average transaction price. That equates to app. $700,000,000 difference in revenue in BMWs favor.

Lutz has already stated that the next CTS will be available as a coupe....

Lutz says a lot of things that should be taken at face value. I have info on the program and I assure you, the coupe can be canned tomorrow. The plans are preliminary at this point and if given the final OK, the vehicle is still years away.

[ZL-1]

This brings up a question, where does that leave buyers who want a 3-Series at a 3-Series price?  Something closer to the 178in lengther of the 3er than the 190in of the 5er or CTS.

Simple: buyers have a choice of BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS. No Cadillacs, which is a major flaw in Cadillac's product planning IMO. Edited May 23, 2006 by ZL-1

[Drew Dowdell]

This brings up a question, where does that leave buyers who want a 3-Series at a 3-Series price?  Something closer to the 178in lengther of the 3er than the 190in of the 5er or CTS.  My Solara is 190 inches long and it can be a bitch to parallel park and drive in heavy traffic, though the huge blind spot doesn't help.  So why not go down in size and cater to a market that obviously exists?

I fight for that also and get shouted down for it.

"Cadillac buyers would never buy a small Cadillac!!!" they say....

uh.... the idea is to try and offer something to non-Cadillac buyers anyway.....

[aldw]

All indications have been that the new CTS will have 3 inches taken off the length, so that will make it more in line with the 3-series at make the issue of size less significant.

[Satty]

3 inches off brings it down to a hair over 187 inches, still almost 10 inches longer than the 3er, I'm sure it will be wider and taller too. Cut a foot off and offer it up to the guy who doesn't need the back seat for anything other than a dog or his wifes shopping bags or something.

[balthazar]

When have any of you taken a tape measure to a car dealership?

[Satty]

I've taken test drives on public roads at dealerships. Believe me, you can tell when a car is long in the first two minutes. If you want to bring 3er sales down and Cadillac sales up, why the hell wouldn't you offer a car that actually competes with the 3er? The CTS is 5er sized but starts $14k less. Sure if you buy a CTS over a 3er you get a larger car for the money, but thats not the same as getting more car for the money.

[The O.C.]

Sure if you buy a CTS over a 3er you get a larger car for the money, but thats not the same as getting more car for the money.

That's a very good point.

I don't think Cadillac should be chasing BMW anyways.....(neither do I think Lexus or M-Benz should either.)

They will be VERY hard pressed to produce a CTS or STS that will have the ultimate capability of a BMW 3-or-5 Series....

....but maybe they SHOULDN'T be overly concerned with that....

Give us contemporary Cadillacs that are stylish, great to drive, and that carve out their own "niche" if you will in the marketplace.

We all know M-Benz started going downhill when they abandoned what a traditional Benz was (heavy, substantial, "engineered like no other car in the world") in order to chase after BMW with their C-Class sport packages and S-Class AMG models....instead of building upon what used to make M-Benz great....

I think Cadillac would be wise to avoid following in their footsteps.

[balthazar]

And how many people buy a 3-series to 'canyon-carve' or otherwise push the car in handling situations? Whatever the number, its a strict minority. I see scads of them, plodding thru traffic here in NJ, commuting to work, driven by fat middle-aged foreign housefraus. Bet they can't tell --if they cared-- how long their bmw is by driving it. The vast majority of consumers are not enthusiasts.

Still no one... who focuses on minute overall length differences... has ever answered the question: If a 190" CTS is uncompetitive because it's 190", is another competitor in this class at 187" also uncompetitive? Exactly what is the overall length range in this class in order to be viewed as 'competitive'?

The CTS is without question, competitive. Not in everyone's book, but what vehicle within it's class is?

[Satty]

Seriously, less length makes a car more maneuverable in EVERY situation, like in a parking garage, merging onto a highway, or driving your lazy suburban ass around McDonalds to get to the Drive-Thru window. Do you not comprehend that point? Because thats the one I've been trying to make. Smaller cars are easier to drive in everyday situations, and a foot is not a minute measure of length.

[Flybrian]

If a few inches on a midsized car really affects your ability to drive, you should not be driving. Period.

[balthazar]

They will be VERY hard pressed to produce a CTS or STS that will have the ultimate capability of a BMW 3-or-5 Series....

Nonsense.

[Satty]

Fly, a foot is not a few inches. I'm not saying it makes someone a better or worse driver, it just makes it easier, especially in confined spaces.

[balthazar]

If overall length was a universal indicator of maneuverability, the 1-series should outsell the 3-series handily and we're going to be up to our eyeballs in SMARTs. The smallest cars would be the #1 seller, instead of camry lumberwagons.

Indeed; like Flybrian implied: I must be a world-class driver wheeling my 217" truck thru parking decks & drive-thrus, eh? I should sell driving instructional DVDs or sumthin'.

Still no answer: >>"If a 190" CTS is uncompetitive because it's 190", is another competitor in this class at 187" also uncompetitive? "<<

[Flybrian]

Fly, a foot is not a few inches.  I'm not saying it makes someone a better or worse driver, it just makes it easier, especially in confined spaces.

Perhaps this would be a concern if I were moving to Bonn and exporting my car with me, but explain where in this country aside from older, historic downtown areas in New England is parking not generally designed for a larger American car?

Also, less length does not really make your car more manuverable; it may make it easier to fit in smaller spaces, but wheel articulation and turning radius is where it counts in terms of manuverability. Again, my car is massive as all get out. I've certainly come upon parking spaces where, yes, I could've parked or a situation where I could've made a U-turn 10 seconds earlier if I had a dinky little Yaris, but I simply parked a few spaces out or waitied for a wider gap in traffic.

I just don't see where its that big of a deal, especially in this country. We're not talking Buick Centurion vs. Mini Cooper anyway.

[Satty]

Did I say the smaller cars will sell better? No. I said smaller cars are more maneuverable. And the numbers are there for you to look at, the CTS cannot outsell smaller competitors at the same price point. Why do the smaller cars sell better? Your guess is as good as mine.

[Flybrian]

Did I say the smaller cars will sell better?  No.  I said smaller cars are more maneuverable.  And the numbers are there for you to look at, the CTS cannot outsell smaller competitors at the same price point.  Why do the smaller cars sell better?  Your guess is as good as mine.

I'd argue there is more to that than rote dimensions. Anything from styling to the fact that its a Cadillac.

[pow]

Size is less of a concern on US highways, but since Cadillac wants to be a global brand, it won't hurt to shrink a few inches and improve packaging efficiency.

[pow]

Anyway, back to the original question. Cadillac products are still second-tier in the marketplace, but the brand has made huge leaps to become as respected as BMW and Merc, even without a proper high-end sedan.

[balthazar]

Well, since no one here can breath or bat an eye without 'marketshare' being dragged into a discussion, did anyone bother to crunch any numbers from the below quoted pot of numeric stew? No???

I did.

BMW marketshare ~ 2001: 17.5%. 2005: 17.8%

Mercedes marketshare ~ 2001: 17.0%. 2005: 15.0%

Acura marketshare ~ 2001: 14.0%. 2005: 14.0%

Cadillac marketshare ~ 2001: 14.1%. 2005: 15.7%

Only other marque to match Cadillac's marketshare increase was lexus (1.8% vs. 1.6%). Infiniti's numbers are mathmatically invalid because its 2001 volume was so extremely low.

"Renaissance"? I vote yes.

CaYear ...............................2005 .....2004..... 2003 .........2002....... 2001

Acura.............................. 209,610... 198,919... 170,918... 165,552 ...170,469

BMW division................... 266,200... 260,079... 240,859... 232,032... 213,127

Cadillac........................... 235,002... 234,217... 216,090...199,748... 172,083

Lexus ............................. 302,895... 287,927... 259,755... 234,109... 223,983

Lincoln ........................... 123,207... 139,016... 158,839 ...150,057... 158,934

Mercedes-Benz................ 224,269... 221,366...218,551... 213,225 ...206,638

Infiniti............................. 136,401 ...130,986 ...118,655.... 87,911.... 71,365

[Flybrian]

I would argue Mercedes is quickly becoming second-tier with many of its lackluster products.

[Drew Dowdell]

Seriously, less length makes a car more maneuverable in EVERY situation, like in a parking garage, merging onto a highway, or driving your lazy suburban ass around McDonalds to get to the Drive-Thru window.  Do you not comprehend that point?  Because thats the one I've been trying to make.  Smaller cars are easier to drive in everyday situations, and a foot is not a minute measure of length.

I drive a CTS nearly every day. It is one of the most manuverable cars I've driven. It has a very tight turning radius for it's length and is very easy to park.

Here are some turning diameters.

BMW 3-series: 10.5 meters

Cadillac CTS: 10.82 meters

BMW 5-series: 11.4 meters

Mini Cooper: 10.6 meters

Acura TSX: 12.19 meters

Audi A4: 11.09 meters

MB C-Clas: 10.7 meters

Lexus ES: 11.2 meters

The CTS's turning diameter is about the a sheet of paper's difference larger than the 3-series and over half a meter smaller than the 5-series it is nearly identical to in size.

Satty, FWD makes a car less manuverable in tight situations. None of the front drivers I looked up could come close to the 3er or CTS.

To drive home this point:

Solara: 11.4 meters

IS250: 10.2 meters

[pow]

I drive a CTS nearly every day. It is one of the most manuverable cars I've driven. It has a very tight turning radius for it's length and is very easy to park.

Here are some turning diameters.

BMW 3-series: 10.5 meters

Cadillac CTS: 10.82 meters

BMW 5-series: 11.4 meters

Mini Cooper: 10.6 meters

Acura TSX: 12.19 meters

Audi A4: 11.09 meters

MB C-Clas: 10.7 meters

Lexus ES: 11.2 meters

The CTS's turning diameter is about the a sheet of paper's difference larger than the 3-series and over half a meter smaller than the 5-series it is nearly identical to in size.

Satty, FWD makes a car less manuverable in tight situations. None of the front drivers I looked up could come close to the 3er or CTS.

To drive home this point:

Solara: 11.4 meters

IS250: 10.2 meters

Nothing a yank of the handbrake won't solve...

[Drew Dowdell]

Fly, a foot is not a few inches.  I'm not saying it makes someone a better or worse driver, it just makes it easier, especially in confined spaces.

Then I guess the 5er is crap because it takes over 1/2 a meter more to make a turn.

[Cory Wolfe]

This brings up a question, where does that leave buyers who want a 3-Series at a 3-Series price?  Something closer to the 178in lengther of the 3er than the 190in of the 5er or CTS.  My Solara is 190 inches long and it can be a bitch to parallel park and drive in heavy traffic, though the huge blind spot doesn't help.  So why not go down in size and cater to a market that obviously exists?

Simple: buyers have a choice of BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS. No Cadillacs, which is a major flaw in Cadillac's product planning IMO.

I've taken test drives on public roads at dealerships.  Believe me, you can tell when a car is long in the first two minutes.  If you want to bring 3er sales down and Cadillac sales up, why the hell wouldn't you offer a car that actually competes with the 3er?  The CTS is 5er sized but starts $14k less.  Sure if you buy a CTS over a 3er you get a larger car for the money, but thats not the same as getting more car for the money.

Size is less of a concern on US highways, but since Cadillac wants to be a global brand, it won't hurt to shrink a few inches and improve packaging efficiency.

Nothing a yank of the handbrake won't solve... 

Oh hell...

[Drew Dowdell]

Did I say the smaller cars will sell better?  No.  I said smaller cars are more maneuverable.  And the numbers are there for you to look at, the CTS cannot outsell smaller competitors at the same price point.  Why do the smaller cars sell better?  Your guess is as good as mine.

Because BMW Trend tells people to buy BMWs and the 3-series is at the price point a lot of people can afford.

The CTS drives and handles so close to the 3-series that the difference can be made up in driver skill yet the CTS is the size of a 5er.

[Mr.Krinkle]

the most literal definition of renaissance is rebirth. if no one thinks that cadillac has undergone or is in the process of a renaissance i dont know what to tell you.

[evok]

Well, since no one here can breath or bat an eye without 'marketshare' being dragged into a discussion, did anyone bother to crunch any numbers from the below quoted pot of numeric stew? No???

The only really interesting statistical observance from the data is the growth in sales for the luxury brands from 01 - 05. On average each brand increased sales by 50k unit per year.

And your statements about dismissing Infiniti's growth is incorrect.

Your statements is actually "spin" and not statistically valid in explaining the data.

Edited May 25, 2006 by evok

[BigPontiac]

I drive a CTS nearly every day. It is one of the most manuverable cars I've driven. It has a very tight turning radius for it's length and is very easy to park.

Here are some turning diameters.

BMW 3-series: 10.5 meters

Cadillac CTS: 10.82 meters

BMW 5-series: 11.4 meters

Mini Cooper: 10.6 meters

Acura TSX: 12.19 meters

Audi A4: 11.09 meters

MB C-Clas: 10.7 meters

Lexus ES: 11.2 meters

The CTS's turning diameter is about the a sheet of paper's difference larger than the 3-series and over half a meter smaller than the 5-series it is nearly identical to in size.

Satty, FWD makes a car less manuverable in tight situations. None of the front drivers I looked up could come close to the 3er or CTS.

To drive home this point:

Solara: 11.4 meters

IS250: 10.2 meters

Speaking as an owner of a 3-Series (my 2nd), I found the CTS unappealing because of its size. I like the size of the 3. The CTS appeals to the American "super size me" crowd that perceives they're getting a deal by getting a bigger car at the same price point. It's also nice that the BMW resale value doesn't drop like a rock as the Caddy's does...

And the parking spaces in CT (part of New England) are generally wider than they were in Charlotte, NC...the spots at the Harris Tetter in South Charlotte were very narrow.

[Mr.Krinkle]

And the parking spaces in CT (part of New England) are generally wider than they were in Charlotte, NC...the spots at the Harris Tetter in South Charlotte were very narrow.

i know spaces are tight sometimes, but c'mon now. chances are whatever car youre in is gonna have some kind of issue when its time to park. you cant blame the car.

[ellives]

Resale value is all about perception and a lot of factors enter into the equation. At one time resale on Cadillac was poor because of quality but this is not a valid factor now at least from my own experience. Today it's all about GM's troubles and not about the Cadillac product.

On a side and unrelated note, I smoked an Acura TL yesterday on my way to work in my '97 STS and I *really* wanted to pull up next the guy at the next light and ask him how it felt to be beaten in his expensive Jap car by a 10-year-old "old man's" car.

Speaking as an owner of a 3-Series (my 2nd), I found the CTS unappealing because of its size.  I like the size of the 3.  The CTS appeals to the American "super size me" crowd that  perceives they're getting a deal by getting a bigger car at the same price point.  It's also nice that the BMW resale value doesn't drop like a rock as the Caddy's does...

And the parking spaces in CT (part of New England) are generally wider than they were in Charlotte, NC...the spots at the Harris Tetter in South Charlotte were very narrow.

[97regalGS]

Well, since no one here can breath or bat an eye without 'marketshare' being dragged into a discussion, did anyone bother to crunch any numbers from the below quoted pot of numeric stew? No???

I did.

BMW marketshare ~ 2001: 17.5%. 2005: 17.8%

Mercedes marketshare ~ 2001: 17.0%. 2005: 15.0%

Acura marketshare ~ 2001: 14.0%. 2005: 14.0%

Cadillac marketshare ~ 2001: 14.1%. 2005: 15.7%

Only other marque to match Cadillac's marketshare increase was lexus (1.8% vs. 1.6%). Infiniti's numbers are mathmatically invalid because its 2001 volume was so extremely low.

"Renaissance"? I vote yes.

you cut corners. Cadillac share went from 14.1% to 15.6% from 2001 to 2002. then it remained flat for the next 3 years. (15.6, 15.9, 15.7)

why the initial jump???? the CTS went on sale Jan 2002, hence the jump the first year.

hmm, but didn't the XLR, SRX and STS all debut after that? and still no significant increase - just flat.

"Renaissance"? Not a hope.

A decent product at the low end of the market for Cadillac to replace the Catera? - Yes.

And what's with Infinit's mathematically invalid? What the hell is that? Since when is 6% of this market invalid? For the record, Infiniti went from 6% to 9%. (btw, the G35 debuted in 2002 as well i believe.)

also, of note, total sales increased 23% from 1,216,599 to 1,497584

[Mr.Krinkle]

why the initial jump????  the CTS went on sale Jan 2002, hence the jump the first year. 

thats the point.

  "Renaissance"?  Not a hope. 

renaissance: the revival of learning and culture originating from roughly the 16th century. A great flowering of art, literature, fashion, and knowledge after the more restrained Middle Ages.

Renaissance is also the third album by the rock band Vanilla Fudge

Etymology: French, from Middle French, rebirth, from renaistre to be born again, from Latin renasci, from re- + nasci to be born -- more at NATION

1 capitalized a : the transitional movement in Europe between medieval and modern times beginning in the 14th century in Italy, lasting into the 17th century, and marked by a humanistic revival of classical influence expressed in a flowering of the arts and literature and by the beginnings of modern science b : the period of the Renaissance c : the neoclassic style of architecture prevailing during the Renaissance

2 often capitalized : a movement or period of vigorous artistic and intellectual activity

A decent product at the low end of the market for Cadillac to replace the Catera? - Yes.

no i have to respectfully disagree. they are in a process of revamping their entire image and gaining the elusive street cred and recognition that has been sorely missing for years. minus the pimps. and well now i guess the rappers. hey its the stuff legends are made from.

now, just because you only see a couple of cts' in toronto, used or what not, dont mean jack.the style and revitalization of the brand is the issue here, successful or not. the entire face of cadillac has changed, hence the rebirth thus the term that has been applied is renaissance, cmon now, youre from canada,a you should know this better than us Americans. and b just the comparison between the cadillacs pre 2001 and now is just ludicrous. im not going to argue market share or numbers but there has defiantely been some changes and reshaping going on. sorry if im repeating myself now.

what were the sales numbers of the catera? does anyone have that?

or better yet, what is the first thing people think of when they hear that name, if they even know what it is.

[The O.C.]

And how many people buy a 3-series to 'canyon-carve' or otherwise push the car in handling situations? Whatever the number, its a strict minority. I see scads of them, plodding thru traffic here in NJ, commuting to work, driven by fat middle-aged foreign housefraus. Bet they can't tell --if they cared-- how long their bmw is by driving it. The vast majority of consumers are not enthusiasts.

Don't you get anything Balthazar?

Of COURSE they don't go canyon-carving......yet they buy the car because OF it's capabilities. They know it's one of the (if not THE) best handling sport sedan out there......

......(of course there are other tactile and emotional advantages to a BMW....interior quality, ride-and-handling compromise, super-creamy-smooth inline 6 engines, superb 6-speed tranny, and so on....things that the average consumer DOES experience day-in and day-out.)

BMW has build a solid reputation over the years and that's why people flock to their vehicles.

All I'm suggesting is that Cadillac do the same.....but don't try to do it JUST copying BMW with a "good-handling" CTS.

[The O.C.]

They will be VERY hard pressed to produce a CTS or STS that will have the ultimate capability of a BMW 3-or-5 Series....

Nonsense.

Whatever.....

your one word post shows exactly how much you DO know about Cadillac and BMW.

[The O.C.]

Well, since no one here can breath or bat an eye without 'marketshare' being dragged into a discussion, did anyone bother to crunch any numbers from the below quoted pot of numeric stew? No???

I did.

BMW marketshare ~ 2001: 17.5%. 2005: 17.8%

Mercedes marketshare ~ 2001: 17.0%. 2005: 15.0%

Acura marketshare ~ 2001: 14.0%. 2005: 14.0%

Cadillac marketshare ~ 2001: 14.1%. 2005: 15.7%

Only other marque to match Cadillac's marketshare increase was lexus (1.8% vs. 1.6%). Infiniti's numbers are mathmatically invalid because its 2001 volume was so extremely low.

"Renaissance"? I vote yes.

Interesting to note that BMW actually went UP during Cadillac's market-share rise....and that Acura stayed the same without losing share.

Seems like M-Benz was the only luxury make significantly impacted by Cadillac's improvement....????

[The O.C.]

Because BMW Trend tells people to buy BMWs and the 3-series is at the price point a lot of people can afford.

The CTS drives and handles so close to the 3-series that the difference can be made up in driver skill yet the CTS is the size of a 5er.

The CTS is a fine-driving car....

...but it's still a ways from a 3-series....I've driven PLENTY of both....with both having sport packages.....not having sport packages....etc...

Around the handling course at the Caddy ride-and-drive, a CTS with the 17-inch sport package was maybe about as agile as a base 325i w/o the BMW sport package.

Plus NO CTS I've ever driven (or GM sedan for that matter) can match a 330i sport package's ability to ride flatly, handle crisply, corner with minimal-to-no lean, AND at the SAME time provide ride quality that is almost supple. Cadillac sport packages thud and whack way too often over harsh surfaces in a way the BMW doesn't.