April 2016: General Motors Co.

[smk4565]

@ Drew.. I said the same thing in post #11. He ignored it. If Cadillac is going to be compared to Audi, Benz, Lexus, and BMW.. one must absolutely realize that GM hits the luxury car field in the same way they do except it utilizes its brands fully in its strategy. Denali, for example, is a luxury brand within an already near lux brand named GMC. GMC sits on the same showroom as Buick in many cases. Denali, last year, was pushing almost 25% of its 559K GMC sales, equaling out to 139K Denali sales... add that to Cadillac all by it self and the two pulled in 314K sales last year. If GM fleshed CAdillac out to sell just 300K in the U.S. + Denali/GMC+ Buick..  it will be unstoppable 

 

On to what was said by Smk and CUVS..   Cadillac... this is what U should be doing. 45% of your offerings should be CUVS.. and that's with at least a whopping 16 products to sell versus your measly 7. 

 

It truly makes the idiot in me... the IDIOT.. in me wonder how the hell is Mercedes outselling Cadillac 2:1 (343K vs 175K) with not just double.. but 10 more vehicle available to the buying public.. in more variants to boot       How is that even possible?? and would that have more to do with the Benz brand being supposedly better and not just having more product?   

 

So the question remains... if Caddy had 16 products.., not 7, even with the variations they currently have of their products (no diesel.. not one effin convertible.. no wagon) would they be able to sell at least equal to Benz?

I have often said they need more product, that is the problem, but years later no new product.  So what are the people i charge of the brand doing?

 

Cadillac should have a small crossover, it could be on D2xx because at $33k with the Lexus NX, Lincoln MKC, Acura RDX, it is all front drive and those buyers don't care about drive wheels.   I would add a mid-size alpha crossover and a full size Omega crossover.  That gets them 4 crossovers, 2 front drive, 2 rear drive.  If they want to do a crossover coupe or V-series or whatever off that they can.  But at least they would have 4 model lines plus Escalade fora  5th SUV.

 

They have to have at least 1 convertible somewhere.  It is low volume, but they look good in commercials and you have to offer at least one, you can't just ignore an aspirational body style like that.

[smk4565]

Since the request was made, here are Buick's numbers from 2010 sales year to 2015 sales year.

 

2010:  155,389

2015:  223,055

 

They gained 77,666 in volume.  The Encore and Verano(both which start under $25k under the price of any 2010 Buick) combined for 99,435 in 2015.  If Buick did' move down market under they would have a sales decline.  Mercedes and Audi without CLA and A3 still have an increase.

[surreal1272]

Mercedes doesn't compete in Buick territory. The cheapest Mercedes is more than the LaCrosse. The only Buick that cost more than the CLA the past 5 years was the full size SUV Enclave, and most full size SUVs are going to cost more than a compact sedan. That isn't cherry picking, that is a fact of what the prices are. If Buick wants to make the Verano base at $32k, the Regal at $40k, and the LaCrosse at $50k (yes above XTS) then they can say they compete in the Mercedes price tier.

What is Buick's ATP? Like $33K? The median price for all new cars is $34k, Buick is just average.

Again, your bull$h! cherry picking is not going to fly here. If you think that certain model Buicks don't compete with the cheapo CLA, then you are further deluding yourself. Again, I can post that MT comparo where the Regal handed the CLAs ass to it if you want.

Oh and the LaCrosse starts a whole $1000 less than the CLA that can't even beat a Regal.

Edited May 5, 2016 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

 

Mercedes doesn't compete in Buick territory.  The cheapest Mercedes is more than the LaCrosse.  The only Buick that cost more than the CLA the past 5 years was the full size SUV Enclave, and most full size SUVs are going to cost more than a compact sedan.  That isn't cherry picking, that is a fact of what the prices are.    If Buick wants to make the Verano base at $32k, the Regal at $40k, and the LaCrosse at $50k (yes above XTS) then they can say they compete in the Mercedes price tier.

 

What is Buick's ATP?  Like $33K?  The median price for all new cars is $34k, Buick is just average.

Again, your bull$h! cherry picking is not going to fly here. If you think that certain model Buicks don't compete with the cheapo CLA, then you are further deluding yourself. Again, I can post that MT comparo where the Regal handed the CLAs ass to it if you want.

 

Doooo iiiiitttttt! 

[surreal1272]

Per request.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/entry-level-luxury-sedan-comparison/

[ccap41]

Per request.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/entry-level-luxury-sedan-comparison/

I thought this paragraph somewhat summed it up from the above article:

 

"Hours after the sun set, the Regal was stalking the CLA250 on Route 89A leading to Jerome. The road was narrow, with the eerie kind of dark where a bright moon is of little use. Here, the Regal was as good a curvy road companion as the other three, though it did mandate first gear for the slowest hairpins. It drives like it is the most skewed toward luxury, with abundant pitch and roll, yet its wide front track and accurate steering place the car where it’s needed. Dare we say it was the second-most enjoyable in these conditions behind the at-home-on-windy-roads BMW? The CC doesn’t dive as much on the brakes as the Regal, but it’s harder to feel out the front tires through the steering. The CLA250 is nimble, but the twin-clutch automatic struggles to respond on manual toggles and the overly stiff front shakes the rest of the car, making for sweaty hands."

[Stew]

 

Sedan sales are dropping fast in all segments. They can probably start merging products like Regal and Verano, Spark and Sonic etc and just put more crossovers out. I don't know if this trend will reverse.

Eventually it will.. I think whenever it is gas goes back up people will think a little more about that extra 1-3mpg hit the CUV is taking. 

 

 

I 100% disagree here.  Crossovers are getting to the point they are at least nearly, if not as efficient, as their sedan counterparts while still offering much greater utility.  this is why FCA, Ford, cadillac, and most others are investing heavily in new crossovers and SUVs.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

I pulled the luxury sales from 2010 and 2015 to compare how much everyone has grown.  Everyone is up since 2010 since the market rebounded.  I ranked it based on 2015 sales volume.  Mercedes had the biggest volume gain, Audi is the fastest growing, nearly doubling sales in the past 5 years.

 

 

     Brand        2015 sales           2010 sales             Change             % Change

BMW                346,023                       220,113                      +125,910                 +57.2%

Lexus               344,601                       229,329                      +115,272                 +50.2%

Mercedes        343,088                        216,448                      +126,640                 +58.5%                (Sprinter not included)

Audi                 202,202                       101,629                      +100,573                 +98.9%

Acura              177,165                        133,606                       +43,449                  +32.5%

Cadillac           175,267                       146,925                       +28,342                  +19.3%

Infiniti              133,498                       103,411                        +30,087                 +29.1%

Lincoln            101,227                        85,828                         +15,399                 +17.9%

 

BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi have all pulled off those numbers by moving down market into Buick territory... so if you want to include that market, merge the Buick and Cadillac numbers.  If you don't want to include that market, drop the 1/2-Series, GLA/CLA/B-Class, A3 and low end lexuses.

 

Edit: and possibly GMC Denali numbers...

 

The CLA costs more than a Buick LaCrosse, and no BMW or Mercedes or Audi costs $21k like a Verano.  The Germans have more up market products, say $75k and up, than the American and Japanese brands also.  The Escalade and The LS460 and LX570 are it.  

 

 

So what? The price points are all over and they don't need to line up even remotely close.   There is no rule that X class from a luxury brand must start at a certain price.   Compare the GLA to the Terrain Denali for example.  Regardless of yours or my views on the respective values of these two cars, the fact remains that GMC is managing to convince 25% of its Terrain customers to buy a compact crossover with a dated 4-cylinder, extra chrome/wood, and a bit of leather for a base price of $35k.   Just because Benz charges the same for less doesn't change the fact that $35k base is in the premium territory. It's not a mistake that the RDX, QX50, and NX all start around that same price point. 

 

The Lacrosse has always had a low entry price, but it climbs in price dramatically and sales skew heavily towards the upper end of the trim lines offered. My memory is rusty but I want to say that Buick claims over 75% of Lacrosses are sold with the Leather group (MSRP, $36k) and the majority of those also have an option group above that (MSRP, $39k). When you then start adding things like Bose or AWD, it's really easy to crest $43k.  That's luxury territory even if they have loss-leader base models to get people in the door. 

 

The story repeats itself with the Regal.  The 1SV base model with the 2.4 that bases at $27k is virtually non-existent.  Don't believe me? Search the inventory in our area for one... they don't exist.  My dealer has never actually seen a new 2.4 powered Regal at his dealership in a couple years.  

 

Most of the Enclaves sold are upper trim AWD models for $50k+.... etc etc etc...

 

....you simply cannot look at Buick's base prices as an indicator of their "class" since those base models are often impossible to find (Regal and Lacrosse 2.4) or no one actually buys them anyway (Cloth, FWD, base Enclave).

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

I pulled the luxury sales from 2010 and 2015 to compare how much everyone has grown.  Everyone is up since 2010 since the market rebounded.  I ranked it based on 2015 sales volume.  Mercedes had the biggest volume gain, Audi is the fastest growing, nearly doubling sales in the past 5 years.

 

 

     Brand        2015 sales           2010 sales             Change             % Change

BMW                346,023                       220,113                      +125,910                 +57.2%

Lexus               344,601                       229,329                      +115,272                 +50.2%

Mercedes        343,088                        216,448                      +126,640                 +58.5%                (Sprinter not included)

Audi                 202,202                       101,629                      +100,573                 +98.9%

Acura              177,165                        133,606                       +43,449                  +32.5%

Cadillac           175,267                       146,925                       +28,342                  +19.3%

Infiniti              133,498                       103,411                        +30,087                 +29.1%

Lincoln            101,227                        85,828                         +15,399                 +17.9%

 

BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi have all pulled off those numbers by moving down market into Buick territory... so if you want to include that market, merge the Buick and Cadillac numbers.  If you don't want to include that market, drop the 1/2-Series, GLA/CLA/B-Class, A3 and low end lexuses.

 

Edit: and possibly GMC Denali numbers...

 

The CLA costs more than a Buick LaCrosse, and no BMW or Mercedes or Audi costs $21k like a Verano.  The Germans have more up market products, say $75k and up, than the American and Japanese brands also.  The Escalade and The LS460 and LX570 are it.  

 

 

 

 

Interesting that U did not include the CTS-V which hits above $100K.. the CT6, which even without a V8 hits in the high 80s.. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

Bottom line is Cadillac is GM's luxury brand, it is the one with the task of targeting Lexus and the Germans.   

 

 

 

While the Germans continuously seem to be targeting Chevy and Honda

[surreal1272]

Per request.http://www.motortrend.com/news/entry-level-luxury-sedan-comparison/

I thought this paragraph somewhat summed it up from the above article:

 

"Hours after the sun set, the Regal was stalking the CLA250 on Route 89A leading to Jerome. The road was narrow, with the eerie kind of dark where a bright moon is of little use. Here, the Regal was as good a curvy road companion as the other three, though it did mandate first gear for the slowest hairpins. It drives like it is the most skewed toward luxury, with abundant pitch and roll, yet its wide front track and accurate steering place the car where it’s needed. Dare we say it was the second-most enjoyable in these conditions behind the at-home-on-windy-roads BMW? The CC doesn’t dive as much on the brakes as the Regal, but it’s harder to feel out the front tires through the steering. The CLA250 is nimble, but the twin-clutch automatic struggles to respond on manual toggles and the overly stiff front shakes the rest of the car, making for sweaty hands.[/size]"

Funny side story. I lived in that area for years. The drive Jerome will certainly test any cars handling capabilities. Just one hairpin turn after another. Fun drive though if you have the right car.

[Drew Dowdell]

Per request.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/entry-level-luxury-sedan-comparison/

 

I call foul on this comparison.  If $36.7k is within the realm of fair play for this comparison (That's what the CLA price-as-tested was), then the Regal GS should have been included, sure the MSRP is $37k on the GS, but you can get $2k off of that simply for having a pulse.   That would have addressed all of their complaints about the suspension, steering, etc.   The GS has continuously variable shocks that can be tightened up in "GS Mode"

[ccap41]

 

 

Sedan sales are dropping fast in all segments. They can probably start merging products like Regal and Verano, Spark and Sonic etc and just put more crossovers out. I don't know if this trend will reverse.

Eventually it will.. I think whenever it is gas goes back up people will think a little more about that extra 1-3mpg hit the CUV is taking. 

 

 

I 100% disagree here.  Crossovers are getting to the point they are at least nearly, if not as efficient, as their sedan counterparts while still offering much greater utility.  this is why FCA, Ford, cadillac, and most others are investing heavily in new crossovers and SUVs.

 

Name one CUV that is as efficient as it's counterpart, ex Focus->Escape, 

 

I should probably clarify so you don't go nuts on the grey areas.. You can't pick a Focus ST and an Escape with the 1.6. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

I pulled the luxury sales from 2010 and 2015 to compare how much everyone has grown. Everyone is up since 2010 since the market rebounded. I ranked it based on 2015 sales volume. Mercedes had the biggest volume gain, Audi is the fastest growing, nearly doubling sales in the past 5 years.Brand 2015 sales 2010 sales Change % Change

BMW 346,023 220,113 +125,910 +57.2%

Lexus 344,601 229,329 +115,272 +50.2%

Mercedes 343,088 216,448 +126,640 +58.5% (Sprinter not included)

Audi 202,202 101,629 +100,573 +98.9%

Acura 177,165 133,606 +43,449 +32.5%

Cadillac 175,267 146,925 +28,342 +19.3%

Infiniti 133,498 103,411 +30,087 +29.1%

Lincoln 101,227 85,828 +15,399 +17.9%

BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi have all pulled off those numbers by moving down market into Buick territory... so if you want to include that market, merge the Buick and Cadillac numbers. If you don't want to include that market, drop the 1/2-Series, GLA/CLA/B-Class, A3 and low end lexuses.

Edit: and possibly GMC Denali numbers...

I have been telling him the same thing for weeks. If you are going compare all Mercedes models for sales purposes then you have include all that apply from GM, not just Cadillac. Of course, that would kill his weak argument and he wouldn't be able to continue his cherry picking campaign.

 

GM covers these two markets with 3 brands, Mercedes covers it with one.  There is a valid debate to be had over which strategy is superior, but comparing sales numbers without acknowledging these facts is dishonest.

Then you have to give BMW all Mini sales, because the cheapest Mini costs the same as a Verano and the Clubman is the same price as an Encore.   Mini sales aren't any good, but if you want to compare sales down to $21,000, BMW should get them too, Audi should get to add the Volkswagen CC, Tiguan and Toureg, because those are priced higher than similar Buicks.  

 

Bottom line is Cadillac is GM's luxury brand, it is the one with the task of targeting Lexus and the Germans.

No. The bottom line is that you are wrong. Cadillac and Buick both serve the luxury market against Germans (Cadillac) and Lexus (Cadillac and Buick).

Seriously. You're going to hurt yourself with the constant bar moving man. Slow down.

[smk4565]

What luxury cars are the $21,000 Verano and $24,000 Encore competing with? LaCrosse is priced lower than a Maxima, Avalon or Cadenza, are those luxury cars?

[Drew Dowdell]

What luxury cars are the $21,000 Verano and $24,000 Encore competing with? LaCrosse is priced lower than a Maxima, Avalon or Cadenza, are those luxury cars?

 

Again with the base prices, stop looking at the black friday deals and start looking at what Buick actually sells.  The Verano doesn't sell all that loaded up, but the Encore typically sells mid-range or better. 

 

The base model of Lacrosse and Regal that you are citing do not exist outside of the Buick.com website. They are a fantasy... you cannot buy them.  75% of all Lacrosses are sold with leather package, which means a minimum of $36k... or $4k over the price of a base Maxima.  The Maxima with Leather is still $3k cheaper than a Lacrosse with leather. 

 

A higher end Maxima or Lacrosse or Avalon or Cadenza luxury cars?  if the GLA/CLA with plastic seating are, then those big sedans most certainly are.   It doesn't have to have a luxury marque to be a luxury car.   Is the K900 not a luxury car just because it's a Kia?  If you're going to disqualify a vehicle because of the badge, then I get to disqualify vehicles that come with plastic seats standard. 

[surreal1272]

What luxury cars are the $21,000 Verano and $24,000 Encore competing with? LaCrosse is priced lower than a Maxima, Avalon or Cadenza, are those luxury cars?

The CLA is priced lower than a Cadenza while still getting spanked by a Buick Regal you seem insistent on ignoring.

What luxury cars are the $21,000 Verano and $24,000 Encore competing with? LaCrosse is priced lower than a Maxima, Avalon or Cadenza, are those luxury cars?

 

Again with the base prices, stop looking at the black friday deals and start looking at what Buick actually sells.  The Verano doesn't sell all that loaded up, but the Encore typically sells mid-range or better. 

 

The base model of Lacrosse and Regal that you are citing do not exist outside of the Buick.com website. They are a fantasy... you cannot buy them.  75% of all Lacrosses are sold with leather package, which means a minimum of $36k... or $4k over the price of a base Maxima.  The Maxima with Leather is still $3k cheaper than a Lacrosse with leather. 

 

A higher end Maxima or Lacrosse or Avalon or Cadenza luxury cars?  if the GLA/CLA with plastic seating are, then those big sedans most certainly are.   It doesn't have to have a luxury marque to be a luxury car.   Is the K900 not a luxury car just because it's a Kia?  If you're going to disqualify a vehicle because of the badge, then I get to disqualify vehicles that come with plastic seats standard.

Don't forget the pleather!

[Cmicasa the Great]

Has this guy seriously decided to go on record as supporting the weird looking, awkward POS that Mercedes, I still believe, yanked from Nissan? Seriously. The CLA is every negatiive thing that they tried to say that the Cimmaron was 34 years ago. I mean come on.. can anyone here tell me that the CLA is a better car than the new Cruze.. hell the Old Cruze or Verano?

[smk4565]

CLA is an average car from the reviews, I don't like the interior of the CLA, I would never buy one.   But even a mediocre at best car with the Mercedes badge will sell, because there are people that will buy it just because of how it looks and the badge on the hood.  

 

Also just as the LaCrosse is often sold with leather package, most CLA's have Premium 1 package and another option.   My local dealer has four CLA's for sale, MSRP, $40,030, $41,580, $35,475, and $39,730.  

 

I get that all cars have options and none of them sell for the base model advertised price.  But the best way to compare is with starting points.   Usually cars with the same base price, option up to a similar price.

[smk4565]

Since the argument was made that German brands rely on low end models, I figured I would post the sales of the luxury brands for models with base price over $50,000.  This weeds out a lot of lower end models, and yes you can option a 3-series to over $50k, but most sold probably are 328i's.  Starting price of $50k, probably means selling price of $60k or higher, so that gives us a better idea of where the sales of expensive cars are.  2015 sales numbers.

 

Mercedes  135,228

BMW         126,728

Porsche       38,223

Lexus          36,270

Cadillac       35,921

Audi             32,201

Infiniti          15,646

Jaguar         14,466

Lincoln        11,964

Acura            2,195

 

 

Volkswagen 7,037

Kia               2,524

Hyundai       2,332

Buick               0

Volvo               0

[daves87rs]

 

 

I'm not surprised the Nox was down as it is very long in the tooth at this point but I am surprised by how much it is down. 

 

If there are 320 CT6's and 304 XT5's out there then where are the in depth reviews/comparisons of them????

 

 

1- I am still am...long in the tooth or not. The now 10 year old Jeep twins are beating sales pretty well.....and they are not even giving them away!  Who knows....I'm seeing a truckload of new Malibus....could be the reason....

 

2 Agreed!!

 

Yeah no clue how those old as F Jeep twins sell..at all.. unless they're throwing heavy discounts on them. They just look so dated inside and out.

 

With the Nox being a Chevy I expect it to sell fairly well even if the product was sub par just because of availability and if it weren't selling hot GM can afford to throw some money at it regardless to get them to move. 

 

My local dealer has a TON of the new Malibus already. Very sharp looking car. I originally hated it, thought it looked terrible. Now, it's grown on me quite a bit. The only thing that kind of annoys me about it is the LED fog lights.. I feel like they should be flipped over. I don't like the angle of the bend. Picky? Yep. It wouldn't keep me from buying one though. 

 

 

 

LOL...glad I'm not the only one that feels that way about the LEDs on the Bu....

 

Per request.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/entry-level-luxury-sedan-comparison/

 

I call foul on this comparison.  If $36.7k is within the realm of fair play for this comparison (That's what the CLA price-as-tested was), then the Regal GS should have been included, sure the MSRP is $37k on the GS, but you can get $2k off of that simply for having a pulse.   That would have addressed all of their complaints about the suspension, steering, etc.   The GS has continuously variable shocks that can be tightened up in "GS Mode"

 

 

 

+1

[surreal1272]

Since the argument was made that German brands rely on low end models, I figured I would post the sales of the luxury brands for models with base price over $50,000.  This weeds out a lot of lower end models, and yes you can option a 3-series to over $50k, but most sold probably are 328i's.  Starting price of $50k, probably means selling price of $60k or higher, so that gives us a better idea of where the sales of expensive cars are.  2015 sales numbers.

 

Mercedes  135,228

BMW         126,728

Porsche       38,223

Lexus          36,270

Cadillac       35,921

Audi             32,201

Infiniti          15,646

Jaguar         14,466

Lincoln        11,964

Acura            2,195

 

 

Volkswagen 7,037

Kia               2,524

Hyundai       2,332

Buick               0

Volvo               0

Good grief Waldo. Find a damn clue, do a proper sales comparison or just leave this discussion altogether if you're just going to ignore everything that directly calls out your obvious bull$h!.

CLA is an average car from the reviews, I don't like the interior of the CLA, I would never buy one.   But even a mediocre at best car with the Mercedes badge will sell, because there are people that will buy it just because of how it looks and the badge on the hood.  

 

Also just as the LaCrosse is often sold with leather package, most CLA's have Premium 1 package and another option.   My local dealer has four CLA's for sale, MSRP, $40,030, $41,580, $35,475, and $39,730.  

 

I get that all cars have options and none of them sell for the base model advertised price.  But the best way to compare is with starting points.   Usually cars with the same base price, option up to a similar price.

Just stop. This is getting embarrassing.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Hey Smk... if U had the money to spend on a $40K ATS or $40K CLA.. and your choice was limited to them.. which would U buy? 

[FordCosworth]

I found this interesting...

 

Based on GM's figures for April, the Cadillac ATS, CTS & Camaro had about 10.5K sales combined. 

 

The Mustang, at 12.7k, outsold the who Alpha line

[surreal1272]

I found this interesting...

 

Based on GM's figures for April, the Cadillac ATS, CTS & Camaro had about 10.5K sales combined. 

 

The Mustang, at 12.7k, outsold the who Alpha line

And it has already been discussed that the 4 cylinder model Camaro has not hit all the lots, hence a big reason for its lower numbers. It has also been well discussed, in the past, how many of those Stangs are from rentals, hence the barebones V6 models.

 

An example of the overall fleet increase by Ford.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/01/ford-motor-company-march-2016-auto-sales/82509024/

 

"LaNeve said on a conference call that Ford's high car-rental-company sales during the first quarter were largely a function of order timing and do not reflect a strategic shift. Rental cars represented 17% of Ford sales in March, compared to 12% a year earlier."

Edited May 6, 2016 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

 

I found this interesting...

 

Based on GM's figures for April, the Cadillac ATS, CTS & Camaro had about 10.5K sales combined. 

 

The Mustang, at 12.7k, outsold the who Alpha line

And it has already been discussed that the 4 cylinder model Camaro has not hit all the lots, hence a big reason for its lower numbers. It has also been well discussed, in the past, how many of those Stangs are from rentals, hence the barebones V6 models.

 

An example of the overall fleet increase by Ford.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/01/ford-motor-company-march-2016-auto-sales/82509024/

 

"LaNeve said on a conference call that Ford's high car-rental-company sales during the first quarter were largely a function of order timing and do not reflect a strategic shift. Rental cars represented 17% of Ford sales in March, compared to 12% a year earlier."

 

 

My point was the Mustang outsold the entire Alpha line....

 

 

FYI surreal,  GM is also increasing their fleet %

 

For April...

 

" Commercial deliveries up for 30th consecutive month "

 

" our Commercial and Government fleet business is growing. ”

 

 

For March

 

" Commercial sales grew 13 percent, Government sales were up 55 percent ".

• " GM’s daily rental mix of total sales was 11 percent. "

Edited May 6, 2016 by FordCosworth

[ccap41]

You know I don't know why people piss so much about fleet and commercial sales so much. Unless the number is 20% of total sales or higher..who gives a $h!? 

 

Well, that question is answered from the months of back-and-forths over it here but I should ask, "why do you guys give a $h!?"

[surreal1272]

You know I don't know why people piss so much about fleet and commercial sales so much. Unless the number is 20% of total sales or higher..who gives a $h!? 

 

Well, that question is answered from the months of back-and-forths over it here but I should ask, "why do you guys give a $h!?"

Ask the Ford stockholder. He's the one who interested Ford sales into a GM sales thread. What I provided was perspective for why those things occurred.

[surreal1272]

I found this interesting...

 

Based on GM's figures for April, the Cadillac ATS, CTS & Camaro had about 10.5K sales combined. 

 

The Mustang, at 12.7k, outsold the who Alpha line

And it has already been discussed that the 4 cylinder model Camaro has not hit all the lots, hence a big reason for its lower numbers. It has also been well discussed, in the past, how many of those Stangs are from rentals, hence the barebones V6 models.

 

An example of the overall fleet increase by Ford.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/01/ford-motor-company-march-2016-auto-sales/82509024/

 

"LaNeve said on a conference call that Ford's high car-rental-company sales during the first quarter were largely a function of order timing and do not reflect a strategic shift. Rental cars represented 17% of Ford sales in March, compared to 12% a year earlier."

 

My point was the Mustang outsold the entire Alpha line....

 

 

FYI surreal,  GM is also increasing their fleet %

 

For April...

 

" Commercial deliveries up for 30th consecutive month "

 

" our Commercial and Government fleet business is growing. ”

 

 

For March

 

" Commercial sales grew 13 percent, Government sales were up 55 percent ".

• " GM’s daily rental mix of total sales was 11 percent. "

And Ford is outpacing that considerably, hence their overall sales lead. FYI GMs retail sales were higher, which (as a few Ford fans pointed out a few years back) means higher profits in the long run.

Again, perspective. Now do you have anything about GM sales to discuss or is the only reason you posted was to flame on about Ford?

[FordCosworth]

 

 

 

I found this interesting...

 

Based on GM's figures for April, the Cadillac ATS, CTS & Camaro had about 10.5K sales combined. 

 

The Mustang, at 12.7k, outsold the who Alpha line

And it has already been discussed that the 4 cylinder model Camaro has not hit all the lots, hence a big reason for its lower numbers. It has also been well discussed, in the past, how many of those Stangs are from rentals, hence the barebones V6 models.

 

An example of the overall fleet increase by Ford.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/01/ford-motor-company-march-2016-auto-sales/82509024/

 

"LaNeve said on a conference call that Ford's high car-rental-company sales during the first quarter were largely a function of order timing and do not reflect a strategic shift. Rental cars represented 17% of Ford sales in March, compared to 12% a year earlier."

 

My point was the Mustang outsold the entire Alpha line....

 

 

FYI surreal,  GM is also increasing their fleet %

 

For April...

 

" Commercial deliveries up for 30th consecutive month "

 

" our Commercial and Government fleet business is growing. ”

 

 

For March

 

" Commercial sales grew 13 percent, Government sales were up 55 percent ".

• " GM’s daily rental mix of total sales was 11 percent. "

And Ford is outpacing that considerably, hence their overall sales lead. FYI GMs retail sales were higher, which (as a few Ford fans pointed out a few years back) means higher profits in the long run.

Again, perspective. Now do you have anything about GM sales to discuss or is the only reason you posted was to flame on about Ford?

 

 

I didn't know I had to check with you on what was acceptable to post or not.

 

I'll make sure to do that in the future, ok moderator?

 

Oh wait...

[ccap41]

 

You know I don't know why people piss so much about fleet and commercial sales so much. Unless the number is 20% of total sales or higher..who gives a $h!? 

 

Well, that question is answered from the months of back-and-forths over it here but I should ask, "why do you guys give a $h!?"

Ask the Ford stockholder. He's the one who interested Ford sales into a GM sales thread. What I provided was perspective for why those things occurred.

 

I just don't know why oposing sides try and rub it in each others faces that X brand has more retail vs commercial sales.. as long as both companies are profiting BILLIONS of dollars and making sweet-ass vehicles for the retail customer who cares how they supplement the earnings to make said vehicles? I don't care if Ford has to sell a billion fleet/rental/commercial vehicles as long as they continue to make vehicles like the GT350 and Raptor..I don't care. Whatever has to happen to keep both companies afloat and profitable. 

[Drew Dowdell]

CLA is an average car from the reviews, I don't like the interior of the CLA, I would never buy one. But even a mediocre at best car with the Mercedes badge will sell, because there are people that will buy it just because of how it looks and the badge on the hood.

Also just as the LaCrosse is often sold with leather package, most CLA's have Premium 1 package and another option. My local dealer has four CLA's for sale, MSRP, $40,030, $41,580, $35,475, and $39,730.

I get that all cars have options and none of them sell for the base model advertised price. But the best way to compare is with starting points. Usually cars with the same base price, option up to a similar price.

Is the Sierra Denali not a luxury truck just because the Sierra W/T exists?

[surreal1272]

You know I don't know why people piss so much about fleet and commercial sales so much. Unless the number is 20% of total sales or higher..who gives a $h!? 

 

Well, that question is answered from the months of back-and-forths over it here but I should ask, "why do you guys give a $h!?"

Ask the Ford stockholder. He's the one who interested Ford sales into a GM sales thread. What I provided was perspective for why those things occurred.

I just don't know why oposing sides try and rub it in each others faces that X brand has more retail vs commercial sales.. as long as both companies are profiting BILLIONS of dollars and making sweet-ass vehicles for the retail customer who cares how they supplement the earnings to make said vehicles? I don't care if Ford has to sell a billion fleet/rental/commercial vehicles as long as they continue to make vehicles like the GT350 and Raptor..I don't care. Whatever has to happen to keep both companies afloat and profitable.

I agree however that does come with a caveat. Retail has always brought higher profits than fleet and for years, when GM was relying very heavily on rentals, we heard that nonstop when Ford was pulling higher retail sales. Well, it is reversed now and cannot be dismissed as a whole just because it doesn't suit the Ford stockholders out there. That's all I'm saying because it is detracting from the subject.

[smk4565]

Hey Smk... if U had the money to spend on a $40K ATS or $40K CLA.. and your choice was limited to them.. which would U buy?

ATS, it is rear drive and has more power if it us a 2.0t

[surreal1272]

CLA is an average car from the reviews, I don't like the interior of the CLA, I would never buy one. But even a mediocre at best car with the Mercedes badge will sell, because there are people that will buy it just because of how it looks and the badge on the hood.

Also just as the LaCrosse is often sold with leather package, most CLA's have Premium 1 package and another option. My local dealer has four CLA's for sale, MSRP, $40,030, $41,580, $35,475, and $39,730.

I get that all cars have options and none of them sell for the base model advertised price. But the best way to compare is with starting points. Usually cars with the same base price, option up to a similar price.

Is the Sierra Denali not a luxury truck just because the Sierra W/T exists?

So, based on his "logic", I guess that makes the base model CLA non- luxury as well?

[Drew Dowdell]

Base model CLAs exist. Base model Lacrosses and Regals don't. Even the rental fleets don't order them.

[smk4565]

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do?  Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad.  If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350.  Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

 

 

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is.  It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury.  Now any car has that.  If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.
,

Edited May 6, 2016 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do? Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad. If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350. Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is. It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury. Now any car has that. If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.

,

Again, by your own definition, that means that a base model CLA is not luxury because it sure as hell doesn't offer anything special in that regard.

I still find it amusing that you continue to move the bar and dodge replies that directly contradict your BS and then you try to create some new scenario or set a particular criteria that means nothing to anyone but yourself.

It really is embarrassing.

Edited May 6, 2016 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

 

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do? Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad. If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350. Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is. It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury. Now any car has that. If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.

,

Again, by your own definition, that means that a base model CLA is not luxury because it sure as hell doesn't offer anything special in that regard.

I still find it amusing that you continue to move the bar and dodge replies that directly contradict your BS and then you try to create some new scenario or set a particular criteria that means nothing to anyone but yourself.

It really is embarrassing.

 

I think we've actually been down this road.. a lot of Mercedes don't even come standard with Leather.. They give you the fake stuff unless you pony up. So..is Mercedes only part luxury? Because the S and G have to come with leather, I'd imagine the AMG GT does...and probably the GLS as well..? But the CLA, C, GLA, E, and GLE all some standard with the fake goods(looked those up). 

 

Cadillac only offers leather. Just say'n. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do? Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad. If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350. Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is. It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury. Now any car has that. If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.

,

Again, by your own definition, that means that a base model CLA is not luxury because it sure as hell doesn't offer anything special in that regard.

I still find it amusing that you continue to move the bar and dodge replies that directly contradict your BS and then you try to create some new scenario or set a particular criteria that means nothing to anyone but yourself.

It really is embarrassing.

I think we've actually been down this road.. a lot of Mercedes don't even come standard with Leather.. They give you the fake stuff unless you pony up. So..is Mercedes only part luxury? Because the S and G have to come with leather, I'd imagine the AMG GT does...and probably the GLS as well..? But the CLA, C, GLA, E, and GLE all some standard with the fake goods(looked those up). 

 

Cadillac only offers leather. Just say'n.

None of that will count in SMKs mind because that would 100% expose his double standard regarding what he "thinks" is luxury.

[Stew]

 

 

 

Sedan sales are dropping fast in all segments. They can probably start merging products like Regal and Verano, Spark and Sonic etc and just put more crossovers out. I don't know if this trend will reverse.

Eventually it will.. I think whenever it is gas goes back up people will think a little more about that extra 1-3mpg hit the CUV is taking. 

 

 

I 100% disagree here.  Crossovers are getting to the point they are at least nearly, if not as efficient, as their sedan counterparts while still offering much greater utility.  this is why FCA, Ford, cadillac, and most others are investing heavily in new crossovers and SUVs.

 

Name one CUV that is as efficient as it's counterpart, ex Focus->Escape, 

 

I should probably clarify so you don't go nuts on the grey areas.. You can't pick a Focus ST and an Escape with the 1.6. 

 

Maybe as efficient was a stretch but a lot are within an MPG or 2 and a lot are capable of 30 MPG+.  One thing that slowed them down temporarily was that when prices skyrocketed there were a lot that were lucky to hit low/mid 20s on the highway.  They are going to get more and more efficient as time goes on too with hings such as aero, high gear transmissions, and weight shedding.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

 

Sedan sales are dropping fast in all segments. They can probably start merging products like Regal and Verano, Spark and Sonic etc and just put more crossovers out. I don't know if this trend will reverse.

Eventually it will.. I think whenever it is gas goes back up people will think a little more about that extra 1-3mpg hit the CUV is taking. 

 

 

I 100% disagree here.  Crossovers are getting to the point they are at least nearly, if not as efficient, as their sedan counterparts while still offering much greater utility.  this is why FCA, Ford, cadillac, and most others are investing heavily in new crossovers and SUVs.

 

Name one CUV that is as efficient as it's counterpart, ex Focus->Escape, 

 

I should probably clarify so you don't go nuts on the grey areas.. You can't pick a Focus ST and an Escape with the 1.6. 

 

Maybe as efficient was a stretch but a lot are within an MPG or 2 and a lot are capable of 30 MPG+.  One thing that slowed them down temporarily was that when prices skyrocketed there were a lot that were lucky to hit low/mid 20s on the highway.  They are going to get more and more efficient as time goes on too with hings such as aero, high gear transmissions, and weight shedding.

 

Okay then name one that is within 1mpg or 2mpg of its classmate.. It's gotta be the same engine now. You can't choose a more powerful car like a Focus ST and an Escape with the 1.6 FWD.

 

Wouldn't all of those things be placed in the cars as well which you could gear even higher, weigh less, and be more aero efficient? 

 

Quick sample of the Mazda 3 and CX-5 shows:

3 2.5L: 4 door - 29/40

3 2.5L: 5 door - 28/39

CX-5 FWD 2.5L: 26/33

For $h!s I'll give the more economical 2.0 engine that is only offered in a manual for the CX-5: 26/35

 

Let's try the Toyota Corolla and Rav4, shall we?

Corolla 1.8L I'll make it easier, it ranges from 27-30city and 36-40 highway

Rav4(only offered w/ 1 engine), FWD, 2.5L: 24/31

 

Ford Focus and Escape.

Focus with the 2.0(less efficient than the 1.0): 27/40

Escape with the most efficient engine(new 1.5T), FWD: 23/30

 

Heck, I'll just keep going because I have some time to kill.

Dart 2.0: 24/34

Dart 2.4: 23/35

Compass FWD, 2.4: 21/28

I'll even give you the Renegade all brand new w/ the 9spd(2.4): 22/31  1.4T: 24/31    <-That is the closest gap yet, 3mpg and that's because the dart just doesn't compete in its own class and is on its way out. 

 

Maybe there is a hidden gem out there that is 1-2mpg off but these are 5-6mpg off in FWD trims it would grow in AWD form. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by ccap41

[Drew Dowdell]

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do?  Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad.  If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350.  Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

 

Who knows!?  I'm not Mary Barra!!  Why does Benz charge $2600 for Voice Control when it is a feature that even a low end Chevy Sonic and Ford Fiesta have??

 

Buick dropped the price of the 2.4 powered Regal and then apparently stopped building it, leaving it as an entry in the catalog only.  The 2.0T Regal is now the $29.9 car.  You're going to get your wish on the '17 Lacrosse. There is no more 2.4 available and I would expect it to move up in price.

 

 

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is.  It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury.  Now any car has that.  If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.

You're all over the place on your definition!   If having leather is a qualifier, than most of the base model Benzes get disqualified for having plastic seats.  If performance is a qualifier, than nearly all of the 4-cylinder Benzes get disqualified.  The Maxima and Avalon are both faster than a much more expensive E300, and the Dodge Charger Hemi and Taurus SHO are right there with an E400.   If handling performance is a qualifier, the big cloud-like S-Class and Lexus LS get disqualified as luxury cars while the Chevrolet SS is one.  

 

So the Chevy SS.. is that a luxury car? It has a fantastic interior (much better than the Impala, which itself is very good), it's got the performance, is all it missing is a badge? 

 

The question is more than specs on a sheet though.  The Maxima is the best example of this.  It is basically the same size as the Altima.  It checks nearly all of the same boxes for "specs" as the Altima (leather, NAV, power windows, V6), and if you lined up the spec sheet of each car next to each other with Yes/No next to each spec, they would look essentially the same.  But these are not the same levels of car.  While they both have leather seats, the Maxima has much nicer leather seats, the Maxima has a much nicer dashboard, it uses much nicer materials all around, it has fantastic (I'm driving one this week) sound deadening. 

 

 

So maybe... it's more than just a statistic or a badge that make a luxury car a luxury car.... but I doubt you'll ever get that through your badge snobbery. 

 

[ccap41]

 

Then why price the LaCrosse and Regal like they do?  Regal was around $30k base and they dropped the price because sales were so bad.  If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, they should price the LaCrosse dollar for dollar with the ES350.  Make the LaCrosee $37,950 base price, if people always buy a loaded model, sales shouldn't suffer.

 

Who knows!?  I'm not Mary Barra!!  Why does Benz charge $2600 for Voice Control when it is a feature that even a low end Chevy Sonic and Ford Fiesta have??

2016-05-06.png

 

Buick dropped the price of the 2.4 powered Regal and then apparently stopped building it, leaving it as an entry in the catalog only.  The 2.0T Regal is now the $29.9 car.  You're going to get your wish on the '17 Lacrosse. There is no more 2.4 available and I would expect it to move up in price.

 

 

As far as Sierra Denali (and cars like Maxima and Cadenza) depends on what your definition of luxury is.  It used to be that leather heated seats and power seats, locks and windows was luxury.  Now any car has that.  If luxury means performance those cars don't fit that.

You're all over the place on your definition!   If having leather is a qualifier, than most of the base model Benzes get disqualified for having plastic seats.  If performance is a qualifier, than nearly all of the 4-cylinder Benzes get disqualified.  The Maxima and Avalon are both faster than a much more expensive E300, and the Dodge Charger Hemi and Taurus SHO are right there with an E400.   If handling performance is a qualifier, the big cloud-like S-Class and Lexus LS get disqualified as luxury cars while the Chevrolet SS is one.  

 

So the Chevy SS.. is that a luxury car? It has a fantastic interior (much better than the Impala, which itself is very good), it's got the performance, is all it missing is a badge? 

 

The question is more than specs on a sheet though.  The Maxima is the best example of this.  It is basically the same size as the Altima.  It checks nearly all of the same boxes for "specs" as the Altima (leather, NAV, power windows, V6), and if you lined up the spec sheet of each car next to each other with Yes/No next to each spec, they would look essentially the same.  But these are not the same levels of car.  While they both have leather seats, the Maxima has much nicer leather seats, the Maxima has a much nicer dashboard, it uses much nicer materials all around, it has fantastic (I'm driving one this week) sound deadening. 

 

 

So maybe... it's more than just a statistic or a badge that make a luxury car a luxury car.... but I doubt you'll ever get that through your badge snobbery. 

 

Dissected like a BOSS 

[Drew Dowdell]

 
To be fair, there are very very few sedans and crossovers that actually share a platform.   The first one that comes to mind is the Sonic/Trax.  The Corolla and RAV4 technically share a platform, but it's one of those flex platforms that allow for huge ranges of customizing.... so you start getting into big weight differentials between vehicles and weight is the biggest killer of fuel economy.

[smk4565]

As far as luxury, my point was that the lines are blurred now.  15 years ago, when a mainstream sedan had sunroof and a leather power heated seat as the only options and that was about as good as it got, it was easy to see.  Luxury cars had nav systems, cooled seats, automatic climate, bose stereos etc.  But today, you can get cooled seats, heated steering wheel, sat-nav, and a panoramic sunroof in a Kia Optima.   I think the luxury aspect now is more in the quality of the materials on the interior, and how the car drives.   This is where the luxury brans separate themselves from the mainstream.  

[surreal1272]

As far as luxury, my point was that the lines are blurred now. 15 years ago, when a mainstream sedan had sunroof and a leather power heated seat as the only options and that was about as good as it got, it was easy to see. Luxury cars had nav systems, cooled seats, automatic climate, bose stereos etc. But today, you can get cooled seats, heated steering wheel, sat-nav, and a panoramic sunroof in a Kia Optima. I think the luxury aspect now is more in the quality of the materials on the interior, and how the car drives. This is where the luxury brans separate themselves from the mainstream.

You weren't "blurring the lines" when everyone brought Buick into the luxury sales fold. Pick a stance and stick with it. These excuses are just tiring.

And again, if you are going to bring up "quality materials" then you have to scratch every Mercedes model offering plastic seats when talking about luxury sales.

Seriously.

Oh and I down voted for, once again, the bar moving.

Edited May 7, 2016 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

As far as luxury, my point was that the lines are blurred now.  15 years ago, when a mainstream sedan had sunroof and a leather power heated seat as the only options and that was about as good as it got, it was easy to see.  Luxury cars had nav systems, cooled seats, automatic climate, bose stereos etc.  But today, you can get cooled seats, heated steering wheel, sat-nav, and a panoramic sunroof in a Kia Optima.   I think the luxury aspect now is more in the quality of the materials on the interior, and how the car drives.   This is where the luxury brans separate themselves from the mainstream.  

 

The quality of the materials in the interior is exactly my point.  A Cadenza has nicer materials than an Optima.  An Avalon has nicer materials than a Camry. A Maxima has nicer materials than an Altima... etc.  A Lacrosse has nicer materials than an Impala and a Regal has nicer materials than a Malibu.

[Drew Dowdell]

Okay then name one that is within 1mpg or 2mpg of its classmate.. It's gotta be the same engine now. You can't choose a more powerful car like a Focus ST and an Escape with the 1.6 FWD.

 

Wouldn't all of those things be placed in the cars as well which you could gear even higher, weigh less, and be more aero efficient? 

 

Quick sample of the Mazda 3 and CX-5 shows:

3 2.5L: 4 door - 29/40

3 2.5L: 5 door - 28/39

CX-5 FWD 2.5L: 26/33

For $h!s I'll give the more economical 2.0 engine that is only offered in a manual for the CX-5: 26/35

 

Let's try the Toyota Corolla and Rav4, shall we?

Corolla 1.8L I'll make it easier, it ranges from 27-30city and 36-40 highway

Rav4(only offered w/ 1 engine), FWD, 2.5L: 24/31

 

Ford Focus and Escape.

Focus with the 2.0(less efficient than the 1.0): 27/40

Escape with the most efficient engine(new 1.5T), FWD: 23/30

 

Heck, I'll just keep going because I have some time to kill.

Dart 2.0: 24/34

Dart 2.4: 23/35

Compass FWD, 2.4: 21/28

I'll even give you the Renegade all brand new w/ the 9spd(2.4): 22/31  1.4T: 24/31    <-That is the closest gap yet, 3mpg and that's because the dart just doesn't compete in its own class and is on its way out. 

 

Maybe there is a hidden gem out there that is 1-2mpg off but these are 5-6mpg off in FWD trims it would grow in AWD form.

 

I found you one. 

 

The CLA/GLA.   Same platform, same engines.

 

CLA250 FWD - 26/38

GLA250 FWD - 25/35

 

CLA250 AWD - 24/32

GLA250 AWD - 24/32

 

The GLA is just a CLA hatchback with a 0.75 in ride height increase... so maybe not what you're looking for.

 

Edit: Another one... 

 

Infiniti Q40 (the old G-series) and QX50 (same platform as the old G-series)

Q40 - 19/27/22

QX50 - 17/24/20

[smk4565]

 

As far as luxury, my point was that the lines are blurred now.  15 years ago, when a mainstream sedan had sunroof and a leather power heated seat as the only options and that was about as good as it got, it was easy to see.  Luxury cars had nav systems, cooled seats, automatic climate, bose stereos etc.  But today, you can get cooled seats, heated steering wheel, sat-nav, and a panoramic sunroof in a Kia Optima.   I think the luxury aspect now is more in the quality of the materials on the interior, and how the car drives.   This is where the luxury brans separate themselves from the mainstream.  

 

The quality of the materials in the interior is exactly my point.  A Cadenza has nicer materials than an Optima.  An Avalon has nicer materials than a Camry. A Maxima has nicer materials than an Altima... etc.  A Lacrosse has nicer materials than an Impala and a Regal has nicer materials than a Malibu.

 

Agreed.  And a Lexus ES nicer than an Avalon, and Infiniti Q50 nicer than a Maxima, etc.  You can get luxury features like a heated steering wheel in a Kia Forte, doesn't make the Forte a luxury car.  It is harder to say what is more luxurious a Cadenza or an A4 the Cadenza probably has more equipment and features, the A4 better build quality or materials.   In that overlap price point in the mid $30s buyers could have different opinions of luxury.

 

I still think materials and driving experience are what set the true luxury cars apart, which is why I think a rear drive chassis is important, because you can create that premium feel, long wheel base for smoother ride, 50/50 weight balance for better handling.  These are the things a Toyota Avalon can't do, the Avalon will still drive like a Camry.