What does Cadillac mean to you?

[surreal1272]

All I said was the Envision is in the small segment, yet priced on top of the XT5, which is mid-size and a Cadillac. How is saying the Envision is in the small segment, but priced similar to the XT5 trolling? It is the size of the vehicle and the price of the vehicle. But as we talk about Cadillac and we know an XT3 is coming, which will be cheaper than XT5, if you take $5k off the XT5 you have a $33,995 X3, that is cheaper than an Envision. Sure the XT5 price could rise, and XT3 priced at $38k, but it seems odd that Buick and Cadillac are so on top of each other.

And the Mercedes GLC is 183.3 inches long, it is also in the small SUV segment. Same size vehicle as the Envision. How can the Envision be mid-size and the GLC be compact, when they are the same size? In what world can you claim the Buick Envision is a mid-size SUV? It doesn't make sense.

You are dodging the "issue" here. If you are going to criticize Cadillac for their dimensions in one segment then you have to do the same with MB. How do you have two CUVs that are ten inches apart in length yet they are both called "compacts", using your "logic"? Do you see it yet or do you want to continue with the phantom issue? Edited April 22, 2016 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

 

As far as the didnt sell part...

 

OK...you got me...on a semantic technicality....

30% of nothing is.....

 

CCAP might be kidding around, but GM bean counters were not...

 

The Autoline Detroit interview with JDN....he mentioned that when the next product line is about to be talked about, the accounting guys are ready to discuss and let the engineers know what models made money...

 

The CTS coupe shared very very little with the sedan....

I wonder how much money was made on it....

 

Yeah Casa....you got me...the CTS coupe was a stupendous success story in the market place...

It sure made a dent in BMW coupe sales....

That is why BMW has cut back on its small coupes....

There is no 2 Series and no 4 Series....but Cadillac has got an ATS coupe and a CTS coupe....

Wait what?

 

The ATS was supposed to replace the CTS and the CTS was supposed to be more in line with a 5 Series...while the ATS is in line with the 3 Series...

2 Series 4 Series and 6 Series.....

 

Cadillac has got the ATS....plus the Camaro....

Because the CTS coupe was such a sales hit!!!

 

Got it!!!

You sure set me straight....

 

 

 

Your attempts to rile me up are laughable. The ATS essentially replace the CTS in the Cadillac line and only the name goes back to what the second gen CTS was. The CTS currently is for all intents the STS from before. Thus.. no coupe. IN terms of sales the product mix:

 

2011 Coupe 27%

2011 Sedan 70%

2011 Wagon 3%

2012 Coupe 27%

2012 Sedan 70%

2012 Wagon 4%

2013 Coupe 29%

2013 Sedan 68%

2013 Wagon 3%

2014 Coupe 29%

2014 Sedan 69%

2014 Wagon 2% 

 

with almost 30% going to coupe sales 

 

2011  55,042

2012  46,979

2013  32,343

2014  31,115

 

Means that almost 15K were coupe sales in 2011. BMW's 3series sales, when it was a coupe and convertible were 15% of that mix. Meaning that Cadillac sold almost double.. by percentage.. of CTS Coupes than BMW did coupes and convertibles combined

 

Now go post a video or something clown

 

 

 

 

As far as the didnt sell part...

 

OK...you got me...on a semantic technicality....

30% of nothing is.....

 

CCAP might be kidding around, but GM bean counters were not...

 

The Autoline Detroit interview with JDN....he mentioned that when the next product line is about to be talked about, the accounting guys are ready to discuss and let the engineers know what models made money...

 

The CTS coupe shared very very little with the sedan....

I wonder how much money was made on it....

 

Yeah Casa....you got me...the CTS coupe was a stupendous success story in the market place...

It sure made a dent in BMW coupe sales....

That is why BMW has cut back on its small coupes....

There is no 2 Series and no 4 Series....but Cadillac has got an ATS coupe and a CTS coupe....

Wait what?

 

The ATS was supposed to replace the CTS and the CTS was supposed to be more in line with a 5 Series...while the ATS is in line with the 3 Series...

2 Series 4 Series and 6 Series.....

 

Cadillac has got the ATS....plus the Camaro....

Because the CTS coupe was such a sales hit!!!

 

Got it!!!

You sure set me straight....

 

 

 

Your attempts to rile me up are laughable. The ATS essentially replace the CTS in the Cadillac line and only the name goes back to what the second gen CTS was. The CTS currently is for all intents the STS from before. Thus.. no coupe. IN terms of sales the product mix:

 

2011 Coupe 27%

2011 Sedan 70%

2011 Wagon 3%

2012 Coupe 27%

2012 Sedan 70%

2012 Wagon 4%

2013 Coupe 29%

2013 Sedan 68%

2013 Wagon 3%

2014 Coupe 29%

2014 Sedan 69%

2014 Wagon 2% 

 

with almost 30% going to coupe sales 

 

2011  55,042

2012  46,979

2013  32,343

2014  31,115

 

Means that almost 15K were coupe sales in 2011. BMW's 3series sales, when it was a coupe and convertible were 15% of that mix. Meaning that Cadillac sold almost double.. by percentage.. of CTS Coupes than BMW did coupes and convertibles combined

 

Now go post a video or something clown

 

 

While correct in % but with 3 series roughly doubling, in 2011, CTS sales at 94,153(and the ratio worsens beyond 2011 as CTS drop and 3 rise) they would still be selling the same total number of 3 Series coupes(now 4Series). They can just amortize the costs better and make a better business case for variants...which in my opinion they are way beyond number of choices at this point.. 3 Series Grand Turisno? One of the ugliest vehicles ever made. Proportions are dog $h!. 

 

 

 

And according to your own figures Casa....the CTS coupe sales were dropping faster than girl's panties when Prince was around them....

And in a relatively short period of time....

The GM bean counters said ...NO NO NO....no more CTS coupe....

Remember....because I mentioned this before...but you ignore, and suppress....the CTS coupe shared very little with the sedan...

Not a very successful car at 31 000 units during the last year....from 55 000 units....and how much were the incentives to move it the last 2 years? Remember...55 000 units @ year 1 to 32 000 and 31 000 units years 3 & 4....with probably massive amounts of rebates to move that hunk of shyte out of the dealership the last 2 years...

 

YEAH CASA...

I think maybe my clown kit...Ill pass it on to you...

Edited April 22, 2016 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

 

All I said was the Envision is in the small segment, yet priced on top of the XT5, which is mid-size and a Cadillac. How is saying the Envision is in the small segment, but priced similar to the XT5 trolling? It is the size of the vehicle and the price of the vehicle. But as we talk about Cadillac and we know an XT3 is coming, which will be cheaper than XT5, if you take $5k off the XT5 you have a $33,995 X3, that is cheaper than an Envision. Sure the XT5 price could rise, and XT3 priced at $38k, but it seems odd that Buick and Cadillac are so on top of each other.

And the Mercedes GLC is 183.3 inches long, it is also in the small SUV segment. Same size vehicle as the Envision. How can the Envision be mid-size and the GLC be compact, when they are the same size? In what world can you claim the Buick Envision is a mid-size SUV? It doesn't make sense.

You are dodging the "issue" here. If you are going to criticize Cadillac for their dimensions in one segment then you have to do the same with MB. How do you have two CUVs that are ten inches apart in length yet they are both called "compacts", using your "logic"? Do you see it yet or do you want to continue with the phantom issue?

 

I am not criticizing Cadillac's dimensions at all.  The XT5 is mid-size as you would expect "5" to be in the middle.  The size for the name is spot on.  My criticism was the Buick Envision costs more than the Cadillac XT5.  Cadillac is supposed to be the luxury brand, Buick is supposed to be a step above Chevy and Entry-lux at best.  A small Buick should not cost more than a mid-size Cadillac.  That makes no sense.  The Envision is the same size as a Verano, imagine a Verano priced more than the CTS.

 

If Cadillac is going to use entry-lix pricing, then we don't really need Buick or GMC, just expand the heck out of Cadillac and let Cadillac sell 15 models and rack up sales in the $30-60k range.  If they want to do that and make Cadillac a Lincoln, Acura, Jeep, Chrysler, Infiniti competitor, then I am fine with that.  They could mop the floor with all those brands if they focused on doing it.

 

But if Cadillac is going to be tier one luxury, a vehicle like XT5 should base around $50k and have a 640 hp V8 XT5-V for about $100k.   They want to be top their, but we still haven't seen the product or the move toward that.  Cadillac is still caught in building a fancy Chevy to battle the Fancy Fords that Lincoln is building, while claiming they are targeting the Germans.  They have to decide a direction and stick with it.

[oldshurst442]

 

I agree.  The sub ATS product they need is a crossover.  They is always a business case for crossovers it now seems.  The XT5 is basically a midsize vehicle, they can get 2 crossovers smaller than it in the line up easily.  People don't want small sedans, look at the drop in Fiesta, Focus type cars, the Honda Fit basically dead, but the Trax, HR-V, and Mazda CX-3 are on the rise.   You can sell a compact crossover, hard to sell a compact sedan if you aren't already established in that segment.

 

 

You do NOT agree.

 

Tiny crossovers is NOT where Cadillac should be going, at the very least because 

 

 

It lacks focus

and Cadillac isn't

 

 

already established in that segment

AND because everyone wants them to stop saying

 

 

let's copy that

 

See what you did there??

 

 

 

VERY CLEVER, BALTHY.

I like very much what YOU did there.

 

+1

[oldshurst442]

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

 

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover.  A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac.  It doesn't make sense.  

 

Well....I dont really care how big one is over the other....

 

It DOES make sense though....

 

Buick needs to carve out its own niche....and destiny.

Cadillac too.

 

Both brands need to be in this segment.

The thing is...both vehicles are very very different in style and in nature...

So...both COULD co-exist without the internal competition effect...

[surreal1272]

All I said was the Envision is in the small segment, yet priced on top of the XT5, which is mid-size and a Cadillac. How is saying the Envision is in the small segment, but priced similar to the XT5 trolling? It is the size of the vehicle and the prices of the vehicle. But as we talk about Cadillac and we know an XT3 is coming, which will be cheaper than XT5, if you take $5k off the XT5 you have a $33,995 X3, that is cheaper than an Envision. Sure the XT5 price could rise, and XT3 priced at $38k, but it seems odd that Buick and Cadillac are so on top of each other.

And the Mercedes GLC is 183.3 inches long, it is also in the small SUV segment. Same size vehicle as the Envision. How can the Envision be mid-size and the GLC be compact, when they are the same size? In what world can you claim the Buick Envision is a mid-size SUV? It doesn't make sense.

You are dodging the "issue" here. If you are going to criticize Cadillac for their dimensions in one segment then you have to do the same with MB. How do you have two CUVs that are ten inches apart in length yet they are both called "compacts", using your "logic"? Do you see it yet or do you want to continue with the phantom issue?

I am not criticizing Cadillac's dimensions at all. The XT5 is mid-size as you would expect "5" to be in the middle. The size for the name is spot on. My criticism was the Buick Envision costs more than the Cadillac XT5. Cadillac is supposed to be the luxury brand, Buick is supposed to be a step above Chevy and Entry-lux at best. A small Buick should not cost more than a mid-size Cadillac. That makes no sense. The Envision is the same size as a Verano, imagine a Verano priced more than the CTS.

If Cadillac is going to use entry-lix pricing, then we don't really need Buick or GMC, just expand the heck out of Cadillac and let Cadillac sell 15 models and rack up sales in the $30-60k range. If they want to do that and make Cadillac a Lincoln, Acura, Jeep, Chrysler, Infiniti competitor, then I am fine with that. They could mop the floor with all those brands if they focused on doing it.

But if Cadillac is going to be tier one luxury, a vehicle like XT5 should base around $50k and have a 640 hp V8 XT5-V for about $100k. They want to be top their, but we still haven't seen the product or the move toward that. Cadillac is still caught in building a fancy Chevy to battle the Fancy Fords that Lincoln is building, while claiming they are targeting the Germans. They have to decide a direction and stick with it.

Again you missed the point. All those words and nothing really said other warrant less criticism that you levy GMs way while ignoring that very same issue offered by Benz. It's just tiring as well as typically hypocritical.

Btw that last paragraph was, quite frankly, the most retarded thing I've read in a long time. Let me make this simple for you. Cadillac does not compete with Lincoln overall. That's Buicks job. Don't believe me? Show me one Lincoln that competes with a CTS-V or even am ATS-V. Don't worry. I'll wait.

Finally, calling them "fancy Chevys" is just flat out trolling as well as factually incorrect. When MB puts out their pick up, expect a lot of "fancy Nissan" remarks.

Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

Cadillac makes the Escalade, a fancy Tahoe, they also make the XT5 which is a fancy V6 Equinox.  The Escalade and XT5 are direct competitors to the Lincoln MKX and Navigator, Cadillac is getting an XT3 to compete with the Lincoln MKC.  Cadillac is getting an XT7, Lincoln likely getting a 3-row Explorer based SUV, so the two brands would have really similar SUV lineups full of vehicles based on Chevy/Ford product.

 

The difference is Lincolns cars are Ford Fusions, while Cadillac has true rear drive performance sedans.  So Cadillac and Lincoln will compete on the SUV side, but not on the sedan side.  

 

If Lincoln can't compete with Cadillac since they don't have performance sedans, I guess Cadillac doesn't compete with the Germans then, because Cadillac has no performance SUVs.  They don't have a GLE63 or GLS63, X5 M, X6 M, Cayenne Turbo, Macan Turbo, SQ5, SQ7 competitor.  Cadillac in the crossover market is in the same position Lincoln is in with their sedans.

[Suaviloquent]

Presumably, I think SMK is harkening to the old logic of GM having the brands being a touch point of the customers for their lifestage in terms of socioeconomic status.

 

Mercedes has a parent company that makes a lot of different things, many of them unrelated to each other. They are not wholly an automotive company.

 

To put it shortly, every brand is built up differently.

 

I'm not sure if it's fair to hold onto that old logic, especially when your competitors are not who they seem at times - you have so much pressure from brands below you, and it's everywhere.  So you have to end up doing a lot of things that are not always so clear-cut.

 

Mercedes wants to believe that their CLA customers will graduate into a C/E/S eventually. Except for the diehard fans, customer satisfaction is pretty low on the CLA/GLA.

 

But again, that's just the price of the car because of  the brand on the grille. I think if the CLA was priced more akin to a Buick Verano, Focus ST, then it's palatable, and you could say it's a fair trade where the Verano is about refinement while the CLA is closer to the Focus ST and has the CLS styling.

 

I would say that Cadillac needs to increase the breath of products if they want to grow. But I would say look again, and re-prioritize. Combine Cadillac and Buick and you have lots of sales across two brands with high prices and great profitability.

[smk4565]

I don't think every brand has to have a start and stop point without touching each other, but there should be some defined areas.  Chevy should be about value, you don't need to make them more expensive or fancy, because you have Buick.  Buick should be the soft luxury, essentially Chevy level performance/ride/handling, but nicer interior, more sound deadening.  

 

I actually think GMC should be commercial grade and work trucks, and not the Chevy clone or luxury SUV brand.  The 2017 Acadia would make a nice Chevy Trailblazer, allowing the Equinox to shrink about 6 inches in length to better align with a CR-V and Escape.  Then Chevy has Trax, Equinox, Trailblazer, Traverse nicely spaced apart.  I'd push the Denali SUV buyers into Cadillac, which should be an even better profit margin than a GMC.  But I know they won't do that with GMC.

 

The problem I have is when a Buick Envision and a Buick Enclave are more expensive than a Cadillac XT5.  If Cadillac is the top, why is it cheaper than a Buick?   And we aren't talking a full size loaded up Buick costing more than a base model small size Cadillac, that happens with all brands.  If GM is so hell bent on making Buick a rival to Acura and Lincoln and a $30-50k brand, then they need to do a lot better job making Cadillac a $50-100k brand.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac makes the Escalade, a fancy Tahoe, they also make the XT5 which is a fancy V6 Equinox. The Escalade and XT5 are direct competitors to the Lincoln MKX and Navigator, Cadillac is getting an XT3 to compete with the Lincoln MKC. Cadillac is getting an XT7, Lincoln likely getting a 3-row Explorer based SUV, so the two brands would have really similar SUV lineups full of vehicles based on Chevy/Ford product.

The difference is Lincolns cars are Ford Fusions, while Cadillac has true rear drive performance sedans. So Cadillac and Lincoln will compete on the SUV side, but not on the sedan side.

If Lincoln can't compete with Cadillac since they don't have performance sedans, I guess Cadillac doesn't compete with the Germans then, because Cadillac has no performance SUVs. They don't have a GLE63 or GLS63, X5 M, X6 M, Cayenne Turbo, Macan Turbo, SQ5, SQ7 competitor. Cadillac in the crossover market is in the same position Lincoln is in with their sedans.[/quote

Honestly SMK, you really need to go find a clue. Again, can't wait for the new Mercedes Frontier pick up.

Btw, no one gives two $h!s about 600HP SUVs and CUVs outside of the smallest of minority of buyers. I believe someone who posts just like you, said something about increasing volume. Think the name rhymed with FNK. Maybe you're familiar with them because after acknowledging that simple little fact, you will see how stupid your lastest post is. You don't increase volume with niche models. You increase your overall volume lineup with what you perceive as good selling cars and trucks. That does not happen by putting out niche 600HP SUVs that most people don't give a $h! about. Those come later, after those brands are established, another fact you have pointed out before but somehow have completely forgotten.

Trolling done horribly horribly wrong SMK

Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

So why do they make a 640 hp CTS-V?  That sells to a very small segment of buyers also.  When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.  Granted a sedan buyer is more likely to opt for the V8 than a crossover buyer.

 

Cadillac fans will say they don't  need a high performance SUV/crossoever because they don't have one.  But Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Land Rover and Jaguar do.   Where would Cadillac be with no ATS-V and CTS-V?  Everyone here says the CTS-V is the best Cadillac ever, why wouldn't  you want a crossover based on it?  You'd still have turbo 4 and V6 models for the masses.

 

We'll see what the Mercedes pick up is, my guess is a dash from the Metris and the same powertrain, and M-B Vans will sell it.   And regardless of what it is, Mercedes will still have over twenty models with 500+ hp.  3 years ago people said the CLA will be the end of Mercedes, it will cause the fall, it is doom and gloom, etc, etc.  Yet sales and profits keep rising to record levels, the C-class sales went up since the CLA came out.

 

I hope you all aren't waiting for Mercedes and BMW to fall for Cadillac to get back on top, it is going to be a long wait.

[riviera74]

What does Cadillac mean to me?

 

I think the better question is: why should a luxury auto buyer buy Cadillac over Lexus and the Germans?  Solve that riddle and Cadillac will do even better than ever.

[surreal1272]

So why do they make a 640 hp CTS-V?  That sells to a very small segment of buyers also.  When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.  Granted a sedan buyer is more likely to opt for the V8 than a crossover buyer.

 

Cadillac fans will say they don't  need a high performance SUV/crossoever because they don't have one.  But Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Land Rover and Jaguar do.   Where would Cadillac be with no ATS-V and CTS-V?  Everyone here says the CTS-V is the best Cadillac ever, why wouldn't  you want a crossover based on it?  You'd still have turbo 4 and V6 models for the masses.

 

We'll see what the Mercedes pick up is, my guess is a dash from the Metris and the same powertrain, and M-B Vans will sell it.   And regardless of what it is, Mercedes will still have over twenty models with 500+ hp.  3 years ago people said the CLA will be the end of Mercedes, it will cause the fall, it is doom and gloom, etc, etc.  Yet sales and profits keep rising to record levels, the C-class sales went up since the CLA came out.

 

I hope you all aren't waiting for Mercedes and BMW to fall for Cadillac to get back on top, it is going to be a long wait.

If you don't understand the fundamental argument of selling a high performance sedan versus a high powered mommy mobile and why you wait on that particular variation in the first place (because you clearly have ignored the fact that the original CTS-V came out one year AFTER the standard CTS, thus supporting my argument), then maybe you should just stop talking. I am done with the troll feeding. 

 

However, I will leave you with one last parting shot. I am going to submit this slogan for submission to Daimler's marketing department and see what they think. I think it will be a hit personally. 

 

 

 

"THE NEW MERCEDES FRONTIER! BOLDLY GOING WHERE NISSAN HAS BEEN FOR DECADES!"

Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

What does the CTS-V coming out in 2004 and the standard CTS coming out in 2003 have to do with Cadillac building a V-series CUV/SUV?

 

I am still missing why having a V-series CUV is a bad idea.

[balthazar]

When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.

You are STILL stuck on 'SALES = EVERYTHING', despite being told a thousand times that's not Cadillac's goal.

Who cares how many of what sold, and vs. others sold? You just don't get it.

 

Sure; an XT5 V-Sport would be neat, it may happen, but it's no 'make or break' model. 

[surreal1272]

What does the CTS-V coming out in 2004 and the standard CTS coming out in 2003 have to do with Cadillac building a V-series CUV/SUV?

 

I am still missing why having a V-series CUV is a bad idea.

Then maybe you should pay particular attention to what I'm actually saying instead of commenting with blinders on. I'm not going to walk you through it anymore.

When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.

You are STILL stuck on 'SALES = EVERYTHING', despite being told a thousand times that's not Cadillac's goal.

Who cares how many of what sold, and vs. others sold? You just don't get it.

 

Sure; an XT5 V-Sport would be neat, it may happen, but it's no 'make or break' model.

Exactly. He can't seem to get that little fact through his head.

[surreal1272]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

[smk4565]

 

When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.

You are STILL stuck on 'SALES = EVERYTHING', despite being told a thousand times that's not Cadillac's goal.

Who cares how many of what sold, and vs. others sold? You just don't get it.

 

Sure; an XT5 V-Sport would be neat, it may happen, but it's no 'make or break' model. 

 

Crossovers (in general) have a higher profit margin than sedans too.  Crossovers equal profit.

 

V-series models also create more profit margin also.  

Edited April 23, 2016 by smk4565

[smk4565]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon.  I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume.  But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

[surreal1272]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?

Again, fancy Nissan.

Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

If MB really wanted to flex their muscles in the segment and do something in-house then they could produce a pretty formidable machine. But it probably wouldn't be cost-competitive, and GM could always respond with Cadillac versions of their own stuff.

A Benz with Nissan innards is just Benz selling out for dollars, which in turn makes any claims to brand exclusivity impossible to justify anymore.

Edited April 23, 2016 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

To be honest, I think it looks pretty good.. Fancy? Doubt it. But I think it looks pretty good from that shot. I have a feeling the rear end will look a little out of place because that rear tire looks to be pretty close to the cab meaning short wheelbase..meaning frumpy proportions.. But the from proportions look decent so maybe not. 

If MB really wanted to flex their muscles in the segment and do something in-house then they could produce a pretty formidable machine. But it probably wouldn't be cost-competitive, and GM could always respond with Cadillac versions of their own stuff.

A Benz with Nissan innards is just Benz selling out for dollars, which in turn makes any claims to brand exclusivity impossible to justify anymore.

I think they sold out for dollars when they made the CLA and GLA.. This is a little more icing on the cake. 

 

..Mmmm..cake.. 

[surreal1272]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

To be honest, I think it looks pretty good.. Fancy? Doubt it. But I think it looks pretty good from that shot. I have a feeling the rear end will look a little out of place because that rear tire looks to be pretty close to the cab meaning short wheelbase..meaning frumpy proportions.. But the from proportions look decent so maybe not. 

If MB really wanted to flex their muscles in the segment and do something in-house then they could produce a pretty formidable machine. But it probably wouldn't be cost-competitive, and GM could always respond with Cadillac versions of their own stuff.

A Benz with Nissan innards is just Benz selling out for dollars, which in turn makes any claims to brand exclusivity impossible to justify anymore.

I think they sold out for dollars when they made the CLA and GLA.. This is a little more icing on the cake. 

 

..Mmmm..cake..

The term "fancy" is taken from SMK's claim of Escalades being "fancy Chevys" while his favorite make wants to put out a "fancy Nissan".

[smk4565]

 

 

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?

Again, fancy Nissan.

Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

 

I live in Pittsburgh, and the Chevy Dealerships have Corvette Z06's on the same lot as a Chevy City Express, which is a Nissan too.  I am guessing not many Corvette buyers leave the lot when they see a compact class commercial van on the lot.

 

The Mercedes truck won't have a Nissan engine or transmission, it will have Mercedes powertrain, but they haven't even said if they are selling it in the USA yet.  I still have a wait and see approach on that, they haven't even shown a concept vehicle of it yet.

 

And yes Mercedes is in business to make money, they aren't a non-profit.  GM is also in business to make money.  People here act like it is a good thing if Cadillac sells 200,000 cars a year globally at $50k per vehicle with slim margins because they lack the high profit crossovers and V-series products they need.

[smk4565]

 

Sold next to Corvettes, and it isn't even "Fancy"

[surreal1272]

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?

Again, fancy Nissan.

Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

I live in Pittsburgh, and the Chevy Dealerships have Corvette Z06's on the same lot as a Chevy City Express, which is a Nissan too.  I am guessing not many Corvette buyers leave the lot when they see a compact class commercial van on the lot.

 

The Mercedes truck won't have a Nissan engine or transmission, it will have Mercedes powertrain, but they haven't even said if they are selling it in the USA yet.  I still have a wait and see approach on that, they haven't even shown a concept vehicle of it yet.

 

And yes Mercedes is in business to make money, they aren't a non-profit.  GM is also in business to make money.  People here act like it is a good thing if Cadillac sells 200,000 cars a year globally at $50k per vehicle with slim margins because they lack the high profit crossovers and V-series products they need.

So after being busted on the dealership front, you are going to try and compare Checy lots with the supposed gold standard in luxury Mercedes lots? Seriously?

And you wonder why a serious discussion can't be had with you.

Oh and not one person said it was a good idea for Cadillac to operate on slim margins. That is just asinine to even assume.

[surreal1272]

 

Sold next to Corvettes, and it isn't even "Fancy"

Again, you have a huge problem with comparing apples to apples.

Chevy-mainstream brand that also sells high performance cars

Mercedes-sells uber luxury cars right next to their cheap vans and soon to be fancy Nissan pick ups.

When Cadillac starts selling vans right next to their Escalades, then you have an argument. The fact is that you don't and you have to constantly move the bar to create all these phantom issues for GM while ignoring those very same issues with Mercedes.

Only you will not see the problem with you asinine comparison.

[surreal1272]

And yes I down voted you for it SMK.

[smk4565]

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both.  All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat.   There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one.  Same thing is happening with crossovers.

 

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well.  This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands.  The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities.  Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both. All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat. There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one. Same thing is happening with crossovers.

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well. This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands. The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities. Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic". Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

 

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both. All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat. There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one. Same thing is happening with crossovers.

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well. This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands. The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities. Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic".

 

XT5 should have been built on the Alpha platform.  There should be a 3-row XT7 on Omega.  That is what they should do, either of those products could take a 600 hp V8, a 400 hp twin turbo V6, etc.

 

But they chose to make the XT5 a front driver so they could platform share with an Acadia, and that platform has a long wheel base option so there is your XT7.  This is how to build a crossover on the cheap, not aiming for what is best.  Lincoln and Acura build crossovers on the cheap, it got them no where.

 

If the XT5 and XT7 were rear drive on alpha and Omega, I wouldn't be opposed to an XT4 mid-size front drive crossover at $40k to compete with the Lexus RX.  There should be an XT3, Alpha would be better, but the people buying a $35k base price crossover are clueless to drivetrain, so they could do anything.  The ideal would be an Alpha XT3 and a D2XX XT2.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both. All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat. There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one. Same thing is happening with crossovers.

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well. This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands. The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities. Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic".

XT5 should have been built on the Alpha platform. There should be a 3-row XT7 on Omega. That is what they should do, either of those products could take a 600 hp V8, a 400 hp twin turbo V6, etc.

But they chose to make the XT5 a front driver so they could platform share with an Acadia, and that platform has a long wheel base option so there is your XT7. This is how to build a crossover on the cheap, not aiming for what is best. Lincoln and Acura build crossovers on the cheap, it got them no where.

If the XT5 and XT7 were rear drive on alpha and Omega, I wouldn't be opposed to an XT4 mid-size front drive crossover at $40k to compete with the Lexus RX. There should be an XT3, Alpha would be better, but the people buying a $35k base price crossover are clueless to drivetrain, so they could do anything. The ideal would be an Alpha XT3 and a D2XX XT2.

And the GLA and CLA should have been built on a RWD platform instead of going for the cheap market.

Good grief bar mover.

Edited April 23, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

[oldshurst442]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And hence my thought process with an ATS does not make me wanna belt out loud Sliiiiiiiiick Black Caaaaaadillac with solid gold hubcaps....making me feel like a king, and hence why I made this thread to see who else may have this doubt about Cadillac...if not the whole brand, at least for just that one model, the ATS.

 

It is quite sad, for a Cadillac enthusiast, to see an equivalent Mercedes Benz product....at least in price if not in quality, to outsell the ATS...

It is also quite sad to see a similar priced Chevrolet on the same lot as said Cadillac product. It wouldnt be so bad had Cadillac been stand alone....but to share the same dealership and to have a lesser brand within the same family compete with you on price defeats the purpose of being top tier 1 luxury.

 

The Buick dilemma is less with the Envision and XT5, because the price of entry is higher and Buick is premium as opposed to Chevy being....gulp....MAINSTREAM and CHEAP....when a Sonic costs $12 000  CDN or so....to have a Chevrolet Malibu Premium touch ATS price tag....to have a Chevrolet alpha platformed brother to cost AS MUCH as the ATS....

Like I said...Cadillac sells the ATS alone in its OWN dealership, not so bad....but to have Chevrolet there....

 

The ATS besides a Malibu....and the ATS just looks like yet another ho-hum compact car....

RWD? 

Big PHOQUING deal!!!!!

 

The CLA from M-B proves it to the ATS that RWD is NO BIG DEAL!!!

Besides....although I have a hard time accepting the Camaro....the Camaro is a stunner....

The Camaro V8 is actually a BETTER machine than the ATS no matter what engine resides in the ATS....and the kicker, other than the ATS-V TTV6, the Camaro enjoys the SAME engines...BUT....between "V" and "SS", the "SS" has the more prestigious engine....

Proof?

The bigger brother CTS-V has got it under its hood....

And the Camaro will gain better versions too....

 

Different target market you say?

 

I say PHOOEY!!!!

 

 

 

Cadillac, JDN better figure out what direction they need to steer Cadillac in, and yes he is only starting....but as of 2016.....I aint singing SLIIIIIIICK BLACK CAAAAAAADILLAC.....

 

I more in tune to singing....

 

 

And Lord knows I DONT WANT TO DO THAT!!!!!

[surreal1272]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

Moving the bar while making more excuses while you try to trash the domestic competition. How utterly typical when you have lost all other arguments here today. 

 

Oh and I want to see proof positive that someone would take that pile of FWD CLA over a RWD ATS. Otherwise, it's just more BS excuses and hyperbole spewing from your keyboard. Of course, the last time I checked no ATS was compared to a Focus but the CLA sure was and it was not complimentary in any way. 

 

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And hence my thought process with an ATS does not make me wanna belt out loud Sliiiiiiiiick Black Caaaaaadillac with solid gold hubcaps....making me feel like a king, and hence why I made this thread to see who else may have this doubt about Cadillac...if not the whole brand, at least for just that one model, the ATS.

 

It is quite sad, for a Cadillac enthusiast, to see an equivalent Mercedes Benz product....at least in price if not in quality, to outsell the ATS...

It is also quite sad to see a similar priced Chevrolet on the same lot as said Cadillac product. It wouldnt be so bad had Cadillac been stand alone....but to share the same dealership and to have a lesser brand within the same family compete with you on price defeats the purpose of being top tier 1 luxury.

 

The Buick dilemma is less with the Envision and XT5, because the price of entry is higher and Buick is premium as opposed to Chevy being....gulp....MAINSTREAM and CHEAP....when a Sonic costs $12 000  CDN or so....to have a Chevrolet Malibu Premium touch ATS price tag....to have a Chevrolet alpha platformed brother to cost AS MUCH as the ATS....

Like I said...Cadillac sells the ATS alone in its OWN dealership, not so bad....but to have Chevrolet there....

 

The ATS besides a Malibu....and the ATS just looks like yet another ho-hum compact car....

RWD? 

Big PHOQUING deal!!!!!

 

The CLA from M-B proves it to the ATS that RWD is NO BIG DEAL!!!

Besides....although I have a hard time accepting the Camaro....the Camaro is a stunner....

The Camaro V8 is actually a BETTER machine than the ATS no matter what engine resides in the ATS....and the kicker, other than the ATS-V TTV6, the Camaro enjoys the SAME engines...BUT....between "V" and "SS", the "SS" has the more prestigious engine....

Proof?

The bigger brother CTS-V has got it under its hood....

And the Camaro will gain better versions too....

 

Different target market you say?

 

I say PHOOEY!!!!

 

 

 

Cadillac, JDN better figure out what direction they need to steer Cadillac in, and yes he is only starting....but as of 2016.....I aint singing SLIIIIIIICK BLACK CAAAAAAADILLAC.....

 

I more in tune to singing....

 

 

And Lord knows I DONT WANT TO DO THAT!!!!!

 

I don't know about Canada, but Cadillac does not share dealerships with Chevrolet.

[surreal1272]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again. 

[oldshurst442]

 

 

I dont know where these are...and these are Zeta Camaros...true.....

And....maybe the showroom floor aint shared...because even in Canada...Cadillac is alone on one side while GMC, Buick and Chevrolet is on the other side, this EXTERIOR scene is all too common even in 2016..

 

The dealership near my home has the Cadillac area completely to the left in the middle is Mr. Goodwrench and to the right is Chevy, Buick and GMC.

 

And the front of the parking lot is where the inventory is located, not the back of the dealership....

OK....remember I said there was a clearance sale of the ATS?

 

OK...there were 3 ATS cars in front of the Cadillac area...there was 1 Impala and 1 new Volt with a Silverado  in front of the Chevy area....but like in the photos above...there was 1 new Camaro SS and 1 Malibu Premium IN FRONT of the ATS in the client parking spot...yes...they were for sale...not demos....inventory for sale! 

 

Note....that photo is an older one....a couple of years ago when Cadillac did share that space with Buick and GMC....

Today though, Cadillac is alone...Buick and GMC are in the Chevy side of the dealership....but the signage remains the same...

 

But...it dont matter when the dealership general manager sticks Chevy cars OUTSIDE the building in the Cadillac area....

[surreal1272]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

Want further proof that even Mercedes lemmings will buy crap like the CLA even when it can't beat a Buick?

Seriously. Try that weak and tired argument somewhere else.

[smk4565]

 

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again. 

 

 

I didn't say I think the CLA is better, I just said that more people rather buy it than an ATS.  The CLA always gets crapped on for being such a horrible car, you want to say it is equal to a $20k Focus, but they sold more of them than Cadillac sold ATS.  So the public must not think it is so bad.  Personally, I don't like the CLA, the interior is sort of cheap, it feels sort of cramped inside too, could be the high belt line of it.  

 

Here in lies Cadillac's problem, the ATS can't even outsell a CLA.  Let alone outsell a Lexus IS or A4.  Even if Cadillac makes a good car, they can't convince people to buy it.  The ATS got good reviews for it's driving dynamics, the magazines love the chassis, but marketing hasn't figured out how to get people to buy it.

 

The Camaro is another good point by Oldshurst, you have a V8 and a supercharged V8 offered in the Camaro, yet no V8 in the ATS.  Cadillac is better than Chevy, the Cadillac should have the better engines.  If the ATS can't mop the floor with a Camaro (or Mustang), how can it beat the world's best?  

 

The Mercedes GL outsold the Escalade in 2013, by 7,000 units.  And Escalade had 3 body styles to the GL's 1.   The Escalade has outsold the GL in 2014 and 2015, but it hasn't outsold it "every year."   This is the only segment that Cadillac and Mercedes have a good battle going, but the Escalade and Navigator founded the segment.  What is interesting is how the Navigator has tanked, and the BMW X7 is about to emerge.  Escalade is still tough to beat.

[smk4565]

CLA outsold Regal and Volkswagen CC combined in 2015!  

 

I never drove a CLA, I have only sat in them, as I posted I don't care for the interior.  I have read the ride is hard and rough, that doesn't fit the rest of the Mercedes line.  It gets good gas mileage, so that is a plus for the CLA.   But despite the flaws, the people like the look or they like the badge so much they will buy it anyway.  That is how strong the Mercedes brand image is.

 

Cadillac needs image work, they have needed image work for decades.  When I suggest they make a 500 hp V8 crossover, or a sports car above Corvette, or that they should have a DOHC V8 for larger vehicles or V-series, people think I am nuts.  Then the CAFE excuse or budget dollars excuse comes up as to why they can't develop a DOHC V8.   When Cadillac should have the money to build what they need, and let Chevy worry about CAFE, take the V8 out of the Silverado and Express van and put in 2.7 liter turbo V6s like Ford did on the F150, there is your CAFE gain.

[smk4565]

2015 sales and rate of change:

 

3/4-series: 140,609   down 1.2%

C-class:    86,080        up 14.7%

 IS:            46,430     down 9.9%

A4:            29,013     down 14.7%

ATS:          26,873    down 10.1%

 

This tells us 2 things.  First off the sales/marketing and branding people are not doing a very good job.  If the ATS is as good as a 3-series, they should be able to convince more people to buy it.  The second thing is that these car segments are shrinking and shrinking fast as crossovers rise.  So you better be on your A game in any of these sedan segments, and you also better have a slew of crossovers to sell, because those segments are growing.

[surreal1272]

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA" "it is cheap, it degrades the brand" Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them. The CLA outsold the ATS last year. True story, it happened. If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them. You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again.

I didn't say I think the CLA is better, I just said that more people rather buy it than an ATS. The CLA always gets crapped on for being such a horrible car, you want to say it is equal to a $20k Focus, but they sold more of them than Cadillac sold ATS. So the public must not think it is so bad. Personally, I don't like the CLA, the interior is sort of cheap, it feels sort of cramped inside too, could be the high belt line of it.

Here in lies Cadillac's problem, the ATS can't even outsell a CLA. Let alone outsell a Lexus IS or A4. Even if Cadillac makes a good car, they can't convince people to buy it. The ATS got good reviews for it's driving dynamics, the magazines love the chassis, but marketing hasn't figured out how to get people to buy it.

The Camaro is another good point by Oldshurst, you have a V8 and a supercharged V8 offered in the Camaro, yet no V8 in the ATS. Cadillac is better than Chevy, the Cadillac should have the better engines. If the ATS can't mop the floor with a Camaro (or Mustang), how can it beat the world's best?

The Mercedes GL outsold the Escalade in 2013, by 7,000 units. And Escalade had 3 body styles to the GL's 1. The Escalade has outsold the GL in 2014 and 2015, but it hasn't outsold it "every year." This is the only segment that Cadillac and Mercedes have a good battle going, but the Escalade and Navigator founded the segment. What is interesting is how the Navigator has tanked, and the BMW X7 is about to emerge. Escalade is still tough to beat.

Maybe you forgot what I said the other day regarding Barnum, suckers, and your average CLA buyer.

And yes the Escalade has outsold it more often than not so your weak rebuttal really means nothing. And I am simply laughing my ass off at the "well the Escalade has more choices than the GL". Simply astounding the level of pure hypocrisy you have shown here.

BTW, while you are telling everyone that Cadillac should just relegate themselves to being a second tier luxury company, stew in the fact that the CLA can't beat a second luxury Buick.

Edited April 24, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

Oops.

Edited April 24, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

CLA outsold Regal and Volkswagen CC combined in 2015!

I never drove a CLA, I have only sat in them, as I posted I don't care for the interior. I have read the ride is hard and rough, that doesn't fit the rest of the Mercedes line. It gets good gas mileage, so that is a plus for the CLA. But despite the flaws, the people like the look or they like the badge so much they will buy it anyway. That is how strong the Mercedes brand image is.

Cadillac needs image work, they have needed image work for decades. When I suggest they make a 500 hp V8 crossover, or a sports car above Corvette, or that they should have a DOHC V8 for larger vehicles or V-series, people think I am nuts. Then the CAFE excuse or budget dollars excuse comes up as to why they can't develop a DOHC V8. When Cadillac should have the money to build what they need, and let Chevy worry about CAFE, take the V8 out of the Silverado and Express van and put in 2.7 liter turbo V6s like Ford did on the F150, there is your CAFE gain.

I'm officially long past caring what the f@#k you think about anything because you never see anyone that competes with Benz as anything other than &#036;h&#33; while thinking that even the lowliest Benz and their future Nissan Frontier are perfectly acceptable in the luxury world. Edited April 24, 2016 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

AGAIN with the same old 'but Car X outsells Car Y' argument, like mass mainstream sales volume are what's supposed to define luxury.

Mass mainstream sales volume is what defines CHEVROLET & TOYOTA & FORD & NISSAN.

 

- - - - -

Yet, even tho they are always neck & neck in volume, I so far have missed the endless ragging on Audi for poor marketing & their inability to convince people to buy them, despite having DOUBLE the number of models that Cadillac does, including the oft-demanded convertibles & hatches & wagons & halo sports cars and 3 SUVs.

 

Howz dat happen???

 

The entire cyclical 'this outsells that so it's automatically better' argument is completely 1-dimensional & beyond tired.

[smk4565]

Audi is weaker in the USA, probably because VW is so weak.  Audi has had slow, steady growth though over 50 consecutive months of sales gains.  15 years ago Audi was like Jaguar level volume, but not they are a player, so I think that is why they get less criticism.  Cadillac was on top of the mountain and now a 5th or 6th place brand, thus they get criticized.

 

Audi sold 1,803,250 cars last year world wide.  Hard to say they don't know how to convince people to buy them, the American market is only 10% of their total sales though.  Cadillac needs the American market, it is their #1 market.

[Suaviloquent]

I find Mercedes and Cadillac to be somewhat competitors in select markets and everywhere else completely different from another.

 

I don't particularly see a problem with the Nissan Frontier based pickup, because I don't think it'll be positioned as a luxury midsize in as much as it will just have a higher price tag because of the badge on the nose.

 

Nissan trucks have a decent reputation around the world for off-road prowess. 

 

Also, again....basing vehicles on common platforms these days works just fine for many car makers, as long as you have a decent base to word off of.

 

If the CLA had more sound-deadening, and better ride tuning it would be a much more substantial car, but perhaps less efficient. Maybe giving it active noise cancellation standard. But I think Mercedes is purely profit driven, which I think is serving them alright.

[surreal1272]

I find Mercedes and Cadillac to be somewhat competitors in select markets and everywhere else completely different from another.

 

I don't particularly see a problem with the Nissan Frontier based pickup, because I don't think it'll be positioned as a luxury midsize in as much as it will just have a higher price tag because of the badge on the nose.

 

Nissan trucks have a decent reputation around the world for off-road prowess. 

 

Also, again....basing vehicles on common platforms these days works just fine for many car makers, as long as you have a decent base to word off of.

 

If the CLA had more sound-deadening, and better ride tuning it would be a much more substantial car, but perhaps less efficient. Maybe giving it active noise cancellation standard. But I think Mercedes is purely profit driven, which I think is serving them alright.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong.

 

Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?

[oldshurst442]

Audi is weaker in the USA, probably because VW is so weak.  Audi has had slow, steady growth though over 50 consecutive months of sales gains.  15 years ago Audi was like Jaguar level volume, but not they are a player, so I think that is why they get less criticism.  Cadillac was on top of the mountain and now a 5th or 6th place brand, thus they get criticized.

 

Audi sold 1,803,250 cars last year world wide.  Hard to say they don't know how to convince people to buy them, the American market is only 10% of their total sales though.  Cadillac needs the American market, it is their #1 market.

I upvoted you on that....because its actually closer to the truth than some of us want to admit...

[smk4565]

 

I find Mercedes and Cadillac to be somewhat competitors in select markets and everywhere else completely different from another.

 

I don't particularly see a problem with the Nissan Frontier based pickup, because I don't think it'll be positioned as a luxury midsize in as much as it will just have a higher price tag because of the badge on the nose.

 

Nissan trucks have a decent reputation around the world for off-road prowess. 

 

Also, again....basing vehicles on common platforms these days works just fine for many car makers, as long as you have a decent base to word off of.

 

If the CLA had more sound-deadening, and better ride tuning it would be a much more substantial car, but perhaps less efficient. Maybe giving it active noise cancellation standard. But I think Mercedes is purely profit driven, which I think is serving them alright.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong.

 

Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?

 

Daimler and Nissan-Renault are joint developing the 2017 Frontier chassis, so yes it is corporate platform share product, but the Mercedes will get a Mercedes engine and transmission and interior.  This is also developed for Europe, Middle East and South America, if sold in the USA it will be sold by the Vans division and marketed as a commercial vehicle.  For a work truck I am sure the Frontier chassis will be serviceable.    They aren't selling the Mercedes pickup as a luxury or performance product, it is the pick up equivalent of the Metris, a work vehicle.  

 

Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, and Lexus, build luxury cars/crossovers of front drive platforms that are inferior to rear drive platforms that you can put more power into, longer wheelbases with better ride, better interior room, etc.  That is the difference.  These front drive products hit a performance ceiling that the rear drive product can far exceed.

 

And many people would rather have a C-class, it outsold the CLA 86,000 to 29,000 in the USA last year.  C-class racked up over 443,000 sales last year world wide.