What does Cadillac mean to you?

[oldshurst442]

Driving home today, while passing by the friendly GM dealership in my neighborhood..where they also sell Cadillacs..this song came up on the radio  (Yeah..no joke impeccable timing!!!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9zzqNjt6e4

 

Seeing several 2015 Cadillac ATSs on the lot on a clearance sale got me thinking...

 

1. Does a $38 000-$43 000 CDN Cadillac car equal a Cadillac?

Especially when on the same lot resides a 2016 $60 000 Chevrolet Camaro SS (same platform for phoque's sake), a 2015 $45 000 Chevrolet Impala LTZ and a 2016 38 000 Chevrolet Malibu Premier...

 

2. The Cadillac ATS, while a beautiful car, to me, does not convince me its a "Slick Black Cadillac".

What I mean by that, a Cadillac ATS does not inspire me to sing out loud about Sliiiiiick Blaaaaaaaaaack Caaaaadillaac with solid gold hubcaps....making me feel like a king!

 

And JDN wants to do sub ATS cars...

 

What Cadillac means to me?

 

A big, brash rock-n-roll machine that tells the world Ive made it!

A long, slick, arrogant, dick measuring automobile that lets the world know that Oldshurst442 has arrived and the party could commence!

 

THAT is what Cadillac means to me.

The ATS does not say that at all...that was the vibe I got today....

 

What does Cadillac mean to you?

[balthazar]

Firstly, I have to separate Cadillac of today in today's market with Cadillac of 'yore', of which I am more familiar with ('60s and earlier).

 

I don't have a real issue with the ATS- it's a nice, competent model line.
But I am unflinchingly against anything smaller than the ATS, Johan is dead wrong on this front. Grow the core models (ATS, CTS, CT6, XT5, E); that's where the money needs to go.

 

The sub-ATS will be the end of Johan's employment @ Cadillac.

[Suaviloquent]

I love Cadillac.

 

 

I think they never should have ever been allowed to degrade themselves - I blame GM for that.

 

Cadillac, I feel is supposed to be ultra-luxury. Buick and Olds were meant to be what Cadillac is now,,,save for the V-Series....

 

But they're making excellent vehicles, but I don't agree with having exclusive engines. Unless it's for compliance with stupid displacement laws....

 

Their heritage is V8, and while the LF4 and LGW are great, V8 is their heritage. 

 

 

To me Cadillac is finally achieving self-realization in this new millennium. 

[G. David Felt]

Cadillac is Luxury what one strives for in owning an auto, rich in Leather, woods, worlds most quiet and comfortable ride. Fit n Finish better than the rest.

 

Luxury is something you never should find at a Chevy, Mercedes-Benz or any other dealer that is not just Luxury. 

 

You can have near Luxury level rides, but not top notch luxury when you compete in the lower segments.

 

I never want Cadillac to compete in the subcompact space IMHO. ATS should be the smallest any auto gets under Cadillac.

[oldshurst442]

All three responses and Im on the same page with all of them.

With the exception of JDN's dismissal regarding sub ATS cars.

 

I think sub-ATS cars will be wildly successful. In Quebec, the ATS is a runaway success.  The 2.0T AWD is by far the best seller in the Cadillac sedan category. A trim that has a price tag of about $46 000-$48 000 CDN...In Quebec, the ATS might even be Cadillac's sales leader besting out another sales hit in the SRX.

 

But that is why I posted this....

As nice of a car the ATS is in ride, handling, looks....the price tag on it makes me question the Cadillac prestige....a sub ATS car even more.

 

Ive given hell to BMW and Audi and Mercedes Benz for this entry level luxury bullshyte....and yet Cadillac is the one to have tried their hand in it first with the Cimarron, and while that was a failure, the ATS is not.....

 

This is thread is NOT about why the Cimarron failed and why the ATS looks like to be a success (at least in Quebec), this thread is about how one feels about Cadillac and their place in history and their place today in 2016....

 

Cadillac was ALWAYS about ultra luxury.

Cadillac was ALWAYS about wanting MORE in your automobile. (all the luxury and excess and hoopla surrounding that included)

Cadillac was ALWAYS about telling people you have arrived when you pulled up and told people you did not give a shyte about anything and at the same time a Cadillac was about telling people you are stinking rich and you dont care who knows it! In fact, you want people to know you are rich that is why you drive a Cadillac!

 

I feel the ATS, while it may achieve sales, does not convey ANY of those messages.

 

The Escalade does.

The SRX also.

 

The CT6 is trying to convey that message.

The poolside commercial conveys that message.

 

The ATS just gives me vibes of yet another compact car trying to survive to jungle in a sea of lion SUVs out to pounce on it and eat it.

Hell, an equally priced CHEVROLET IMPALA LTZ @ $45 000 CDN kinda gives me some of that Cadillac criteria I mentioned above...

 

It aint even about the price tag.

Its about presence. And the lack the ATS has on the road.

It looks purty....but good looks is not enough.

It lacks something......it lacks this certain ingredient that makes a Cadillac a Cadillac.

 

The Escalade has that in droves.

The Ciel, the El Miraj drowned it it.

 

Even the SRX had that certain Cadillac flair.

The CTS and the CT6 almost have it.

 

What is it?

I have no idea what it is...but when I look at the models I named, I certainly know as much to identify which models have Cadillac mojo and which models desperately need it!

Edited April 20, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Cmicasa the Great]

Used to be that for me Cadillac was aspiration.. I don't feel that way anymore basically because I really don't aspire to own any car at this point of my life. I have colleagues and associates that could buy and sell me.. they say the same things. Perspective. 

 

I think ones idea of luxury has more to do with what level your level of attainability is. For instance.. I remember taking a chick to the Eden Roc in Miami.. she literally dropped her panties soon as she saw the room. While I think it was nice.. I wouldn't have shown my ass unless we were at minimum the Ritz or Rui

 

In truth.. for me Cadillac means HERITAGE and innovation. Cadillac, I'm convinced, has the capability to not only past Benz in the luxury field, but rejoin Rolls in it's plateau as well. It is unlike any other brand, but Benz, the epitome of innovation and heritage. Bringing in people not ever involved in the GM Culture created by Smith and furthered and embedded by Stempel will not only strengthen Cadillac but will trickle down to other brands as well even with Barra running things. I mention those two previous GM leaders because it was during their time that the idea of making Cadillac more mainstream took hold. Similar thing happened to Packard.. and Cord way back in the day.

 

Bottom line is that Cadillac is struggling because of lack of product, revolutionary change to a 112 year business, a corporate BK 6 years ago that made management re-prioritize, and American self loathing of.. well anything American. All that, and Cadillac is still as prestigious as at the very least Jaguar and Lexus, with more heritage than either. LOOK AT CADILLAC SALES and then speak. Actually analyze them for the briefest of moments and U will come away with as much confidence as I. As long as Cadillac stays the course, providing vehicles with the DNA that is embedded within the “ATS-CTS-CT6 Stepping Stone” then everything they put forth will add to overall sales volume without a need to fleet heavily.

 

 

U wanna see a situation of real BIAS? Look at the Audi numbers of 27 supposed offerings (versus Cadillac at 8)and tell me why there is such optimism for them with only 9.7% of the luxo market versus Cadillac at 9.1%

Again.. That's Audi with 27models/9.7% market vs Cadillac 8 models (less than 1/3) with 9.1%.

 

From last year

 

 

 

Cadillac's number of vehicles versus Benz, BMW, and Audi’s 12+ and their sales numbers are indicative of that fact.

 

WHY AM I BRINGING UP SALES?? Because this is the way market analyst look at success in each segment. It doesn' matter that the brand has a 3-6 mainstream offerings labeled under the luxo emblem.. its a sale, thus deemed desirable.

 

These other brands are picking up sales in areas where not only Cadillac does not offer vehicles YET, but in market segments that encroach very easily on mainstream market makers. There is no way a buyer should be trying to decide between a Mercedes CLA and a Honda Civic, Ford Fusion, or Chevy Malibu LTZ, yet it is happening.

 

For the record.. I have no issue with Cadillac offering a SUB-ATS.. as long as that SUB-ATS is RWD (on Alpha) or is a purpose built hatch or hybrid like the Volt or Astra, with preference on the RWD scenario. Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller, as we kno that the replacement for this ATS is moving up in interior size at least.

[balthazar]

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

[G. David Felt]

^ +1 Totally agree with you Balthazar

[Frisky Dingo]

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

[Suaviloquent]

I'm okay with a sub-ATS, as long as it's a luxury car through and through.

 

Against the Mercedes Pretendz and the FWD Ultimate Fail Machine....it could be a whole lot worse...

[hyperv6]

What Cadillac used to mean was to be the True Standard of the World all others were compared to and measured. That was decades ago. 

 

What they need to aspire to today is just the same but to attain that it will take years and continued improved products that need to better the rest to earn the image they need. 

As for the size and type of product brother it is what ever it takes anymore. Markets and customer desires have changed radically and the large sedan is just the the center of the market anymore. 

In the luxury segment some look for Quality, Technology and comfort but in so many different packages anymore. Add to this the challange to meet future regulations being forced on the market has forced the hand of all MFG. Just look at how many years Benz bragged about no FWD and now they have had to go to it. 

We also need to consider that if Cadillac it to go global the wants and needs are different globally too. Some placed just want large cars while others only want smaller but still high grade luxury cars. Some are forced into by taxation and regulation.  Hell just look what it cost to drive a larger car in London now with the added taxed or even parking. 

As of now Cadillac is very distinctive. No matter if you like the styling or not it is never going to be confused for a Benz of BMW as a Lexus has been as well as the Hyundai offering. So styling is of their own branding as to if you find to you taste that is all subjective but there is no way to say it is not distinctively their own style. 

 

I think if you consider that we have not seen what JDN can and will do yet. He has been there a year and  a half and we all here know you can not do much in that time. The XT5 and CT6 were both done by the time he arrived as only some clean up was being done for both models. 

We know that starting next year we will see some of his new refresh work but it will be limited at first. The first full on models will be 2020 and on. While I am not going to say what he has planed is going to solve everything I will say we can not condemn someone for work we have yet to see any hint of. At least let the man fail before you condemn him. 

 

What Cadillac means to me in the future. Well it will be a high profit lower volume division that will offer the most advanced and highest quality cars and CUV/SUV models that the market wants in all sizes and shapes. It will be seen as a leader in each segment it enters. 

Cadillac will be the company that all luxury brands will be compared to. 

Note the Battle Hymn Republic is playing in the back ground as you read this. 

 

What I do recommend is to consider where the automobile is going. While we pine for our wants and needs the automakers need to find what appeals to those coming behind us. They are the future that needs to be built for. They are not coupe lovers and many are not even car lovers but you have to find and build cars that appeal to them. Many do not like large V12 sedans and if they like something smaller it has to be investigated. 

When we dream of the future we can not pin all this on the past or present wants and needs but where this is all going is what needs to be worked on in each and every global market we plan to enter. 

 

This is big picture stuff not selfish personal wants and needs.That is where many American Automakers have failed in the past. The just build it they will come does not work anymore. 

 

Yes this means I feel they should build cars that do not appeal to me if they can make a good profit on them with younger people and or in different markets. Cadillac must do what is best to make them relevant to all not just a few. 

That Truly is the Penalty of Leadership!

Edited April 21, 2016 by hyperv6

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

 

 

 

Same demographic that buys the CLA... but later finds out its a POS.. Same buyer who will buy a 1 series or 2 series. And I doubt big time that it costs a billion$$ to develop the model.. Again.. when the newer ATS (CT3) will be a tad larger on the inside. I would also point out that while my preference is the Alpha platform be used.. I would have zero objection to a Dx vehicle that was a hatch or hybrid

[Cmicasa the Great]

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

 

 

If U say so BMW fan. A brand that I equate with boring and slow drivers who would be better off at a Starbucks than in my way. Nonetheless... Escalade, CTS, CT6 beg to differ with your opinion:

 

 

 

[balthazar]

 

 

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

 

Same demographic that buys the CLA... but later finds out its a POS.. Same buyer who will buy a 1 series or 2 series. And I doubt big time that it costs a billion$$ to develop the model.. Again.. when the newer ATS (CT3) will be a tad larger on the inside. I would also point out that while my preference is the Alpha platform be used.. I would have zero objection to a Dx vehicle that was a hatch or hybrid

OK… that's your take.

Mine is, there's no business case to bring out another sedan on the SAME PLATFORM as the ATS. I mean, hello?

And this is coming from someone who doesn't place all that much significance in what platform is under a vehicle.

 

CLA is moving copies (based on whoring out the badge), but the 1-2 series @ BMW is struggling.

But a FWD hatchback Cadillac??????????????????? What sort of sales analysis threads am I going to be reading there??

 

It's not where Cadillac came from, it's not where they need to go. 

The whole 'must match the German's catalogs' mindset has to die but some folks just won't let it go.

[hyperv6]

 

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

 

 

If U say so BMW fan. A brand that I equate with boring and slow drivers who would be better off at a Starbucks than in my way. Nonetheless... Escalade, CTS, CT6 beg to differ with your opinion:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gee! at first glance these all look like Cadillac's! 

 

Even my blind grandfather said they even feel like Cadillac's. 

 

I think you have made a very valid point!!!!!

[hyperv6]

 

 

 

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

 

Same demographic that buys the CLA... but later finds out its a POS.. Same buyer who will buy a 1 series or 2 series. And I doubt big time that it costs a billion$$ to develop the model.. Again.. when the newer ATS (CT3) will be a tad larger on the inside. I would also point out that while my preference is the Alpha platform be used.. I would have zero objection to a Dx vehicle that was a hatch or hybrid

OK… that's your take.

Mine is, there's no business case to bring out another sedan on the SAME PLATFORM as the ATS. I mean, hello?

And this is coming from someone who doesn't place all that much significance in what platform is under a vehicle.

 

CLA is moving copies (based on whoring out the badge), but the 1-2 series @ BMW is struggling.

But a FWD hatchback Cadillac??????????????????? What sort of sales analysis threads am I going to be reading there??

 

It's not where Cadillac came from, it's not where they need to go. 

The whole 'must match the German's catalogs' mindset has to die but some folks just won't let it go.

 

 

First lets see if that is what they will do first and then lets just see the results before we complain. 

 

Arguing this right now is like arguing that you may get the flu in September. 

 

The things about Cadillac's future are very unknown to most outside the division even at GM and even less so here in the public domain. They have really said a lot of things but really given little in details.  It is kind of hard to get worked up on something we have no clue about at this point. 

 

Plus you have that factor out there today that is young and foolish that believe they will self destruct in the winter if they do not have a FWD/AWD car.  Audi makes an ever growing profit on these folks. Foolish yes but their money is as green as anyone else's. 

As ,for the small BMW it has done very well in Europe and other markets. Kind of proves it is not just about America anymore. 

[oldshurst442]

The CTS lacks a certain Cadillac quality (in my eyes).

The V is superbly done. Just a tad too boy racer, but I could live with that.

 

The CT6 also lacks a certain Cadillac quality that I cant put my finger on.

Yeah, they both have that unmistaken Cadillac look, they lack that Cadillac feel.

Even a 1990 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham D'Elegance had that Cadillac feel.

The FWD STS cars had that certain je ne sais quoi about it.

Hell, a DTS had that Cadillac feel.

Presence.

 

The CTS-V has got it though. The look may be a tad too boy racer, but the Cadillac substance is there.

 

The Escalade is just...perfect.

 

But Hyper said something that maybe I too, should just relax and enjoy the up coming ride that JDN has in store for us.

 

Cadillac aint just about North America anymore.

 

My personal proof is that in Quebec, small car capital in North America, the ATS is a runaway success.

And I have talked to some of my clients that own an ATS...

They love the ride.

They love the handling.

They love the quality.

They think an ATS IS a car worth the Cadillac badge. Even with just the 2.0T car.

 

I think Im still stuck in an era when Cadillac was king and its hard for me to continue to wait for the second coming...

 

However...Frisky is right though.

Many people around the world are also awaiting for the "REAL" Cadillac to emerge.

The Ciel was well received across the planet.

A movie wanted that concept car soooo badly it actually made Cadillac give it to them.

It was a perfect car casting....too bad the Ciel was not real.

 

The Cien was also a concept car that made the movies.

That too, had Cadillac presence and fit the casting role perfectly...

And it was a mid-engine exotic back when Cadillac was anything but sporty. And the Cien did a wonderful job of making a futuristic world believe that Cadillac is a maker of high performance mid-engined sports cars!!!!

Edited April 21, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

I think Ive figured out what that certain Cadillac feel is.

 

Cadillacs were always larger than life.

 

That does not mean Cadillac cars have to be large cars. Just larger than life cars.

A sub ATS car should be outta this world stupendous. Whatever that may mean.

It should NOT be just another compact car merrily rolling along.

It COULD be a compact car, but it should give the middle finger to anybody that looks at it funny!!!

Edited April 21, 2016 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

I think Ive figured out what that certain Cadillac feel is.

 

Cadillacs were always larger than life.

 

That does not mean Cadillac cars have to be large cars. Just larger than life cars.

A sub ATS car should be outta this world stupendous. Whatever that may mean.

It should NOT be just another compact car merrily rolling along.

It COULD be a compact car, but it should give the middle finger to anybody that looks at it funny!!!

 

I would agree that Cadillac should be larger than life when you see it but does not have to be physically large.

 

It is the right balance of Style with attention to details that brings peoples eyes to the auto and everything else around it becomes a blur in the background. 

 

Cadillac needs to get all auto's into that portfolio. I do think Escalade, SRX / XT5, ATS and CTS V have it, not sure what it is about the CTS, but it is missing something be it very small, it is very close.

 

Not having seen a CT6 yet in the wild only pictures, I hope it has it also. An understated elegance that will capture peoples wow factor. I aspire to have one!

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

 

Same demographic that buys the CLA... but later finds out its a POS.. Same buyer who will buy a 1 series or 2 series. And I doubt big time that it costs a billion$$ to develop the model.. Again.. when the newer ATS (CT3) will be a tad larger on the inside. I would also point out that while my preference is the Alpha platform be used.. I would have zero objection to a Dx vehicle that was a hatch or hybrid

OK… that's your take.

Mine is, there's no business case to bring out another sedan on the SAME PLATFORM as the ATS. I mean, hello?

And this is coming from someone who doesn't place all that much significance in what platform is under a vehicle.

 

CLA is moving copies (based on whoring out the badge), but the 1-2 series @ BMW is struggling.

But a FWD hatchback Cadillac??????????????????? What sort of sales analysis threads am I going to be reading there??

 

It's not where Cadillac came from, it's not where they need to go. 

The whole 'must match the German's catalogs' mindset has to die but some folks just won't let it go.

 

 

 

Look Balthazar.. U and I are normally so much on the same page I have to look to see if its U speaking or myself.. but this time I have to simply disagree. The idea of Cadillac not catering to a sub-ATS crowd is crazy.. again.. even if the car is essentially JUST a same size version of the current ATS at $30K and the current ATS-L (from China) is coming in at the current $33K price then it is justified.. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

 

 

If U say so BMW fan. A brand that I equate with boring and slow drivers who would be better off at a Starbucks than in my way. Nonetheless... Escalade, CTS, CT6 beg to differ with your opinion:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gee! at first glance these all look like Cadillac's! 

 

Even my blind grandfather said they even feel like Cadillac's. 

 

I think you have made a very valid point!!!!!

 

 

 

Thanks.. I think. The thing is that some people constantly try and belittle Cadillac for having vehicles that don't push the evelope far enough in styling.. yet from what I see.. the envelope that they are pushing has been pushed beyond almost every radical design language I can think of today. Lexus... ironically might be the one rival who has gone that way.. but not in terms of beauty, imo, but revolting. 

 

I see a Jag.. I don't really see a Jag (of Heritage). I see a copy of BMW.. or is it Audi.. or is it Mazda

I see a BMW.. I don't see anything of appeal.. outside of the 4 and the 6 series. That 's deplorable in a line-up consisting of 27 models. All of which look.. just Euro-Japanese. They look no more distinct on the road than a Honda, Ford, Toyota, or Chevy

I see an Audi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ the A/S5 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I see a Benz ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CLS and S-Class Coupe ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Cadillac??? I can't think of one vehicle that doesn't sing CADILLAC!!! Mind U I'm not talking about Harley Earl's Cadillac.. or even Bill Mitchell's.. But Ed Welburn's A&S. The ATS, outside of the most BASE model looks like a Gen 2 CTS redo, a car that was very well received as a styling masterpiece

[Cmicasa the Great]

The CTS lacks a certain Cadillac quality (in my eyes).

The V is superbly done. Just a tad too boy racer, but I could live with that.

 

The CT6 also lacks a certain Cadillac quality that I cant put my finger on.

Yeah, they both have that unmistaken Cadillac look, they lack that Cadillac feel.

Even a 1990 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham D'Elegance had that Cadillac feel.

The FWD STS cars had that certain je ne sais quoi about it.

Hell, a DTS had that Cadillac feel.

Presence.

 

The CTS-V has got it though. The look may be a tad too boy racer, but the Cadillac substance is there.

 

The Escalade is just...perfect.

 

But Hyper said something that maybe I too, should just relax and enjoy the up coming ride that JDN has in store for us.

 

Cadillac aint just about North America anymore.

 

My personal proof is that in Quebec, small car capital in North America, the ATS is a runaway success.

And I have talked to some of my clients that own an ATS...

They love the ride.

They love the handling.

They love the quality.

They think an ATS IS a car worth the Cadillac badge. Even with just the 2.0T car.

 

I think Im still stuck in an era when Cadillac was king and its hard for me to continue to wait for the second coming...

 

However...Frisky is right though.

Many people around the world are also awaiting for the "REAL" Cadillac to emerge.

The Ciel was well received across the planet.

A movie wanted that concept car soooo badly it actually made Cadillac give it to them.

It was a perfect car casting....too bad the Ciel was not real.

 

The Cien was also a concept car that made the movies.

That too, had Cadillac presence and fit the casting role perfectly...

And it was a mid-engine exotic back when Cadillac was anything but sporty. And the Cien did a wonderful job of making a futuristic world believe that Cadillac is a maker of high performance mid-engined sports cars!!!!

 

 

 

I get what U are saying in terms of the Ciel and Cien.. but the truth of the matter is that this thread pretty much is a semi-attack on the ATS. Read your first post. In fact.. it is almost entirely about how U feel teh ATS shoudl not be a Cadillac. NOW.. look at your quote above:

 

My personal proof is that in Quebec, small car capital in North America, the ATS is a runaway success.

And I have talked to some of my clients that own an ATS...

They love the ride.

They love the handling.

They love the quality.

 

They think an ATS IS a car worth the Cadillac badge. Even with just the 2.0T car.

 

U talked to actual owners who gave U that sound and positive resume.. yet still have issue with the product. Makes zero sense. 

 

In terms of Cadillac not being the Cadillac that U equate Cadillac of being... Let me the first to say; IF CADILLAC STILL SOLD THE CADILLACS IT WAS SELLING PRE-2003.. I would not have owned one damn Cadillac until I was 60, and I am currently Cadillac biggest fan. My dad has a 1996 Brougham.. I hate that car. Its a big floaty, though powerful (LT1) car with sofas for seats. It is a part of the sinking of Cadillac to where it was for most of the 2000-2010 decade.. it should not be revisited as the ascend back to the once loftiest position. The CT6-CT9 should be certainly large... but handling and styling should be precise, and bold. I see that..

 

 

 

This is BOLD:

 

 

This is NOT

 

 

[Frisky Dingo]

 

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

 

 

If U say so BMW fan. A brand that I equate with boring and slow drivers who would be better off at a Starbucks than in my way. Nonetheless... Escalade, CTS, CT6 beg to differ with your opinion:

 

 

 

 

 

Sick burn. I thought we were talking about Cadillac. Cadillac needs to be building Ciels, Sixteens, and El Miraj's. THEN they would be fulfilling both their potential and heritage. Their current cookie cutter cars with cut-rate and garish interiors aren't cutting it. Sorry buddy, it's not my fault you can't look at the brand through anything other than rose-colored glasses.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

Cadillac means no-compromise, no-excuse luxury Americana. A distinct look, stance, and presence. A Mercedes Benz- dare I even say, Rolls- for the American patriot.

 

 

Unfortunately, Cadillac doesn't and refuses to build cars that embody those things. Such a shame.

 

 

If U say so BMW fan. A brand that I equate with boring and slow drivers who would be better off at a Starbucks than in my way. Nonetheless... Escalade, CTS, CT6 beg to differ with your opinion:

 

 

 

 

 

Sick burn. I thought we were talking about Cadillac. Cadillac needs to be building Ciels, Sixteens, and El Miraj's. THEN they would be fulfilling both their potential and heritage. Their current cookie cutter cars with cut-rate and garish interiors aren't cutting it. Sorry buddy, it's not my fault you can't look at the brand through anything other than rose-colored glasses.

 

 

 

 

Not even gonna go back and forth with U Dingo.. Just gonna state the facts:

 

1) Interiors are award winning and have been getting kudos galore for their craftsmanship, quality, and materials

2) The Elmiraj is coming. But I think anyone of reasonable mind would want the CT6 to launch before they delve deep into a CT7. See? The numbers make more sense if U go in order.. idiot. 

3) Rose colored glasses? No. I just look at them thru my wallet.. and love what I see. 

 

Do me a favor.. Post up a picture of your brand new BMW.. and its fantastic interior. In fact... post up a picture of a new BMW with in your words.. "A distinct look, stance, and presence."

 

 

 

 

Distinct? Looks like any other BMW. In fact without a tape measure one would be hard pressed to say that it ISN'T a 5 Series. I won't even get into the fact that it looks pretty generic as car as CARS go

 

Stance? Huh? I'll replace that with engineering. The BMW name used to stand for something.. now its pretty much switched places with Lexus in terms of ride and dynamics.. while still certainly not in reliability

 

Presence??? Eff outta here. There is nothing.. and I mean nothing about a BMW outside of the 6Series that comes off as having presence.. and even that car is me throwing U a bone. The rest of the line up looks like it took styling cues from this:

 

[oldshurst442]

"U talked to actual owners who gave U that sound and positive resume..yet still have issue with the product. Makes zero sense."

 

 

 

I never had any issues with the product...nor the styling.

The presence, the feel...the attitude of the ATS, in MY EYES is all wrong...

 

Just how you would not buy a Cadillac Brougham of 1996 vintage, and noit until you were 60 years old...because I, at 43 years of age, would have considered a Brouhmam in 2016...

 

The question I asked is how does one feel about Cadillac...

 

I don't want Cadillac to be producing land yachts...but what do you think a Ciel is?

Or an Escalade for that matter...

 

(You've got to be kidding me if you think an Escalade is all that different from a 1996 Brougham...a slight suspension tuning to be less floaty for modern day Cadillac drivers is that difference...because its still a  BOF vehicle...an SUV...Im sure a Brougham could have had the same suspension and steering feel done to it with the same brakes to be a more modern land yacht...)

 

I like the way the ATS drives...its the lack of presence its got on the road that is a concern to me...

Ive gotten over the fact that Cadillac compacts are reality, but when a Honda Civic has more teeth and ballz to its look and feel, there is a problem.

 

Casa, the ATS, while arts and science is clearly visible, the ATS is no more exciting than the BMW and Audi cars you whine about...

ATS V aside....which has boy racer looks, is clearly lacking road presence.

And a price tag that Chevrolet keeps bouncing up on...

 

ATS V...

Boy racer looks.

 

That is a very cheap way to establish road presence.

That was Pontiac's way, it worked for Pontiac...well...Pontiac is no longer...

 

But whatever...I like this thread because I got many people's point of view of Cadillac for 2016...I wanted to know if I was alone in these thoughts of mine...

 

and I would STILL  like others to join in...

Plenty of Cheers and Gears folk that have not chimed in.

 

 

PS...a big grille alone does not equate to being bold...

 

Its got to be "more than a sum of its parts" type deal...

Edited April 21, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

The new 7 Series is mediocre. Nowhere have I said otherwise. It's still completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. While we're at it, I like Steak & Shake, what's your opinion on it? 

[ccap41]

Luckily this is an opinion based thread and nobody can be wrong!  

[Scout]

 Its a big floaty, though powerful (LT1) car with sofas for seats. 

 

 

 

I guessing I am alone here but I would not have a problem with Cadillac offering a car like that.  I have driven them and thought great for what they were.  Same with the  Chrysler Imperial and Lincoln Continental.  When I was younger I would borrow a family members Continental for road trips.  The comfort level and room was great.  Same with a Buick Lesabre I used to barrow for the same reason.  I know those are the exact cars that gave them the old person stigma.  But they were all very comfortable nice to drive cars. Maybe there is room in the lineup for a business class car from Cadillac or Lincoln that is plush, roomy, and comfortable.  Not everyone is looking for a car with Nürburgring and track certifications.  I can think of a lot of reasons why those cars are not offered,,,  but like I said, they were sooo comfy.       

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

"U talked to actual owners who gave U that sound and positive resume..yet still have issue with the product. Makes zero sense."

 

 

 

 

I never had any issues with the product...nor the styling.

The presence, the feel...the attitude of the ATS, in MY EYES is all wrong...

 

 

So be it.. The Attitude of the ATS is to take on the best from Europe. It does. Very well in attitude, presence and feel. It lacks the variety that those Europeans do thus sales will be low., It lacks their marketing.. thus sales will be low. It is also first generation. The fact that it doesn't jibe with your idea of what U believe Cadillac should be speaks volumes as to what they are doing right in terms of attracting the new customers to the brand

 

 

Just how you would not buy a Cadillac Brougham of 1996 vintage, and noit until you were 60 years old...because I, at 43 years of age, would have considered a Brouhmam in 2016...

 

Perhaps because I've driven and been in both.. thru out the years. The old Cadillacs are cool for those who want them, but going forward.. FORWARD.. Cadillac needs to stay this course. To think that they were not gonna get people like yourself who hated the NEW Cadillac would have been ridiculous. Reminds me of people who say they prefer the Vinyl LPs over the CD or digital music. Its nostalgia driven that is all. 

 

 

 

The question I asked is how does one feel about Cadillac...

 

I don't want Cadillac to be producing land yachts...but what do you think a Ciel is?

Or an Escalade for that matter...

 

(You've got to be kidding me if you think an Escalade is all that different from a 1996 Brougham...a slight suspension tuning to be less floaty for modern day Cadillac drivers is that difference...because its still a  BOF vehicle...an SUV...Im sure a Brougham could have had the same suspension and steering feel done to it with the same brakes to be a more modern land yacht...)

 

The Escalade, and other SUVS like Range Rover for years.. was branded as not worthy of Luxury simply because they were trucks or not traditional luxury vehicles (read cars). The Escalade, while certainly being big and bold is big and bold no differently than any other 5800lbs 204 inch (Length) and 74 inch (height) vehicle would be...  As to FEEL.. yeah a ride, drive, or even better.. OWNING of one certainly feels special. My Dad also owns a previous gen Escalade we bought him.. my mom an SRX.. both say that they love their vehicles and both say they exude the special feeling they had about Cadillac when they.. THEY.. they were growing up. That's high praise considering they grew up in the 50s and 60s. When I got into my last 3 Caddys.. I always felt like I was equal of better than any BMW or Benz rolling near. Not one time did I not stop somewhere and even your vaulted S-Class owner not tell me how gorgeous and nice.. outta kno where mind U.. my STS or CTS was at the time. This current CTS gets unbelievable props. I feel like I'm pushing a Ferrari more than any luxury sedan, by the way people react to it. Just yesterday during dinner I could see my Rose parked out in from the Restaurant as a guy in his 20s literally tripped up over the curb staring and pointing showing his girlfriend how slick Rose was. She said to him.. "if U had a car like that.. we'd have to break-up, cause of all the THOTS U'd be meeting" 

 

 

I like the way the ATS drives...its the lack of presence its got on the road that is a concern to me...

Ive gotten over the fact that Cadillac compacts are reality, but when a Honda Civic has more teeth and ballz to its look and feel, there is a problem.

 

Casa, the ATS, while arts and science is clearly visible, the ATS is no more exciting than the BMW and Audi cars you whine about...

ATS V aside....which has boy racer looks, is clearly lacking road presence.

 

And a price tag that Chevrolet keeps bouncing up on...

 

Tell that same thing to the 3Series.. and C-Class.. I keep tell y'all that conservatism is the way of the entry segment. The ATS tends to be conservative til U hit the Performance model.. then it shines. U've obviously never seen an ATS-V on the road or U would definitely not be saying something as crazy as it lacks road presence. Your pricing issues are also insane as every car can easily come up on luxury pricing when tarted up. A Chevy Impala also knocks on the Audi A6 Price as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 Its a big floaty, though powerful (LT1) car with sofas for seats. 

 

 

 

I guessing I am alone here but I would not have a problem with Cadillac offering a car like that.  I have driven them and thought great for what they were.  Same with the  Chrysler Imperial and Lincoln Continental.  When I was younger I would borrow a family members Continental for road trips.  The comfort level and room was great.  Same with a Buick Lesabre I used to barrow for the same reason.  I know those are the exact cars that gave them the old person stigma.  But they were all very comfortable nice to drive cars. Maybe there is room in the lineup for a business class car from Cadillac or Lincoln that is plush, roomy, and comfortable.  Not everyone is looking for a car with Nürburgring and track certifications.  I can think of a lot of reasons why those cars are not offered,,,  but like I said, they were sooo comfy.       

 

 

 

 

Your name seems familiar.. but nonetheless.. I think the current continuation of the XTS is that car. I will add that they XTS with MRC does offer that feeling of "floaty..." to a degree... in touring mode.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

"U talked to actual owners who gave U that sound and positive resume..yet still have issue with the product. Makes zero sense."

 

 

 

 

I never had any issues with the product...nor the styling.

The presence, the feel...the attitude of the ATS, in MY EYES is all wrong...

 

 

So be it.. The Attitude of the ATS is to take on the best from Europe. It does. Very well in attitude, presence and feel. It lacks the variety that those Europeans do thus sales will be low., It lacks their marketing.. thus sales will be low. It is also first generation. The fact that it doesn't jibe with your idea of what U believe Cadillac should be speaks volumes as to what they are doing right in terms of attracting the new customers to the brand

 

 

Just how you would not buy a Cadillac Brougham of 1996 vintage, and noit until you were 60 years old...because I, at 43 years of age, would have considered a Brouhmam in 2016...

 

Perhaps because I've driven and been in both.. thru out the years. The old Cadillacs are cool for those who want them, but going forward.. FORWARD.. Cadillac needs to stay this course. To think that they were not gonna get people like yourself who hated the NEW Cadillac would have been ridiculous. Reminds me of people who say they prefer the Vinyl LPs over the CD or digital music. Its nostalgia driven that is all. 

 

 

 

The question I asked is how does one feel about Cadillac...

 

I don't want Cadillac to be producing land yachts...but what do you think a Ciel is?

Or an Escalade for that matter...

 

(You've got to be kidding me if you think an Escalade is all that different from a 1996 Brougham...a slight suspension tuning to be less floaty for modern day Cadillac drivers is that difference...because its still a  BOF vehicle...an SUV...Im sure a Brougham could have had the same suspension and steering feel done to it with the same brakes to be a more modern land yacht...)

 

The Escalade, and other SUVS like Range Rover for years.. was branded as not worthy of Luxury simply because they were trucks or not traditional luxury vehicles (read cars). The Escalade, while certainly being big and bold is big and bold no differently than any other 5800lbs 204 inch (Length) and 74 inch (height) vehicle would be...  As to FEEL.. yeah a ride, drive, or even better.. OWNING of one certainly feels special. My Dad also owns a previous gen Escalade we bought him.. my mom an SRX.. both say that they love their vehicles and both say they exude the special feeling they had about Cadillac when they.. THEY.. they were growing up. That's high praise considering they grew up in the 50s and 60s. When I got into my last 3 Caddys.. I always felt like I was equal of better than any BMW or Benz rolling near. Not one time did I not stop somewhere and even your vaulted S-Class owner not tell me how gorgeous and nice.. outta kno where mind U.. my STS or CTS was at the time. This current CTS gets unbelievable props. I feel like I'm pushing a Ferrari more than any luxury sedan, by the way people react to it. Just yesterday during dinner I could see my Rose parked out in from the Restaurant as a guy in his 20s literally tripped up over the curb staring and pointing showing his girlfriend how slick Rose was. She said to him.. "if U had a car like that.. we'd have to break-up, cause of all the THOTS U'd be meeting" 

 

 

I like the way the ATS drives...its the lack of presence its got on the road that is a concern to me...

Ive gotten over the fact that Cadillac compacts are reality, but when a Honda Civic has more teeth and ballz to its look and feel, there is a problem.

 

Casa, the ATS, while arts and science is clearly visible, the ATS is no more exciting than the BMW and Audi cars you whine about...

ATS V aside....which has boy racer looks, is clearly lacking road presence.

 

And a price tag that Chevrolet keeps bouncing up on...

 

Tell that same thing to the 3Series.. and C-Class.. I keep tell y'all that conservatism is the way of the entry segment. The ATS tends to be conservative til U hit the Premium model.. then it shines. U've obviously never seen an ATS-V on the road or U would definitely not be saying something as crazy as it lacks road presence. Your pricing issues are also insane as every car can easily come up on luxury pricing when tarted up. A Chevy Impala also knocks on the Audi A6 Price as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell that same thing to the 3Series.. and C-Class.. I keep tell y'all that conservatism is the way of the entry segment. The ATS tends to be conservative til U hit the Premium model.. then it shines. U've obviously never seen an ATS-V on the road or U would definitely not be saying something as crazy as it lacks road presence. Your pricing issues are also insane as every car can easily come up on luxury pricing when tarted up. A Chevy Impala also knocks on the Audi A6 Price as well. 

 

 

 

 

Ah...Casa, but you finally saw what Im seeing with the ATS...(non ATS-V...we will get to that V later)

"The ATS tends to be conservative"

 

Yes....it seems like the ATS is just another compact car in a sea of compacts...with a price tag that a Ford Fusion Titanium could reach....

 

My opening words to this thread..yet I chose a Camaro, Impala and Malibu to drive my thought process home...

And then I thought about it some more and I  said that Cadillacs should be larger than life regardless if compact or fullsized or SUV...

 

Then you went all pissy to finally admit the ATS is styled conservatively...

The CTS coupe of a couple years ago was FUGLY, it did not sell NOT because it pushed the boundaries too far, its because the man with the ugly stick touched it.

 

I heard a rumour that the ATS, current CTS and CT6 lack Cadillac machismo is because of the Chinese market. That is for another conversation...

 

OK...about the ATS-V....I never said it lacked presence...I said it had it...but with boy racer styling...

Is Cadillac chasing the Fast and the Furious crowd with that?

Because I, would never aspire to own a "V" series car, just because of the boy racer aspect.

Its cool that you feel 60 years old in your father's Brougham, many felt that way between the years 1986-2010. Yeah..1986, not the 1990s that you are trying to say...Cadillac was starting to roll downhill from them....and BMW/Audi was going up...._{(if the unintended acceleration shyte did not hit Audi then, Audi would hae been BIGGER than BMW in the 1990s...)}but if I was to drive YOUR CTS-V, I wouldnt feel comfortable  in it as I wouldnt want people to say Im hitting a mid-life crisis....

 

Boy Racer....that is for Pontiacs....

Beautiful... Absolutely GORGEOUS car...

 

But...I see the same thing in this automobile...without the ribbed sides...

Vented hoods...functional or not...same shyte...

Air thingys on the bottom of both cars...functional or not...same shyte...

To boot, the Pontiac GP has CLASSIER wheels...

If the goal is for affluent ATS-V buyers in their 40s,50s, and possibly 60s to relieve their go go go 20s...then mission accomplished...

But...somehow, I dont think that is Cadillac's mission. Cadillac's mission was to attract the younger buyers...yes...but I dont think it was to throw them on under the Fast and Furious bus...

 

The ELR is a compact that embodied that Cadillac presence WITHOUT the boy racer shyte...

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

"U talked to actual owners who gave U that sound and positive resume..yet still have issue with the product. Makes zero sense."

 

 

 

 

I never had any issues with the product...nor the styling.

The presence, the feel...the attitude of the ATS, in MY EYES is all wrong...

 

 

So be it.. The Attitude of the ATS is to take on the best from Europe. It does. Very well in attitude, presence and feel. It lacks the variety that those Europeans do thus sales will be low., It lacks their marketing.. thus sales will be low. It is also first generation. The fact that it doesn't jibe with your idea of what U believe Cadillac should be speaks volumes as to what they are doing right in terms of attracting the new customers to the brand

 

 

Just how you would not buy a Cadillac Brougham of 1996 vintage, and noit until you were 60 years old...because I, at 43 years of age, would have considered a Brouhmam in 2016...

 

Perhaps because I've driven and been in both.. thru out the years. The old Cadillacs are cool for those who want them, but going forward.. FORWARD.. Cadillac needs to stay this course. To think that they were not gonna get people like yourself who hated the NEW Cadillac would have been ridiculous. Reminds me of people who say they prefer the Vinyl LPs over the CD or digital music. Its nostalgia driven that is all. 

 

 

 

The question I asked is how does one feel about Cadillac...

 

I don't want Cadillac to be producing land yachts...but what do you think a Ciel is?

Or an Escalade for that matter...

 

(You've got to be kidding me if you think an Escalade is all that different from a 1996 Brougham...a slight suspension tuning to be less floaty for modern day Cadillac drivers is that difference...because its still a  BOF vehicle...an SUV...Im sure a Brougham could have had the same suspension and steering feel done to it with the same brakes to be a more modern land yacht...)

 

The Escalade, and other SUVS like Range Rover for years.. was branded as not worthy of Luxury simply because they were trucks or not traditional luxury vehicles (read cars). The Escalade, while certainly being big and bold is big and bold no differently than any other 5800lbs 204 inch (Length) and 74 inch (height) vehicle would be...  As to FEEL.. yeah a ride, drive, or even better.. OWNING of one certainly feels special. My Dad also owns a previous gen Escalade we bought him.. my mom an SRX.. both say that they love their vehicles and both say they exude the special feeling they had about Cadillac when they.. THEY.. they were growing up. That's high praise considering they grew up in the 50s and 60s. When I got into my last 3 Caddys.. I always felt like I was equal of better than any BMW or Benz rolling near. Not one time did I not stop somewhere and even your vaulted S-Class owner not tell me how gorgeous and nice.. outta kno where mind U.. my STS or CTS was at the time. This current CTS gets unbelievable props. I feel like I'm pushing a Ferrari more than any luxury sedan, by the way people react to it. Just yesterday during dinner I could see my Rose parked out in from the Restaurant as a guy in his 20s literally tripped up over the curb staring and pointing showing his girlfriend how slick Rose was. She said to him.. "if U had a car like that.. we'd have to break-up, cause of all the THOTS U'd be meeting" 

 

 

I like the way the ATS drives...its the lack of presence its got on the road that is a concern to me...

Ive gotten over the fact that Cadillac compacts are reality, but when a Honda Civic has more teeth and ballz to its look and feel, there is a problem.

 

Casa, the ATS, while arts and science is clearly visible, the ATS is no more exciting than the BMW and Audi cars you whine about...

ATS V aside....which has boy racer looks, is clearly lacking road presence.

 

And a price tag that Chevrolet keeps bouncing up on...

 

Tell that same thing to the 3Series.. and C-Class.. I keep tell y'all that conservatism is the way of the entry segment. The ATS tends to be conservative til U hit the Premium model.. then it shines. U've obviously never seen an ATS-V on the road or U would definitely not be saying something as crazy as it lacks road presence. Your pricing issues are also insane as every car can easily come up on luxury pricing when tarted up. A Chevy Impala also knocks on the Audi A6 Price as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell that same thing to the 3Series.. and C-Class.. I keep tell y'all that conservatism is the way of the entry segment. The ATS tends to be conservative til U hit the Premium model.. then it shines. U've obviously never seen an ATS-V on the road or U would definitely not be saying something as crazy as it lacks road presence. Your pricing issues are also insane as every car can easily come up on luxury pricing when tarted up. A Chevy Impala also knocks on the Audi A6 Price as well. 

 

 

 

 

Ah...Casa, but you finally saw what Im seeing with the ATS...(non ATS-V...we will get to that V later)

"The ATS tends to be conservative"

 

Yes....it seems like the ATS is just another compact car in a sea of compacts...with a price tag that a Ford Fusion Titanium could reach....

 

My opening words to this thread..yet I chose a Camaro, Impala and Malibu to drive my thought process home...

And then I thought about it some more and I  said that Cadillacs should be larger than life regardless if compact or fullsized or SUV...

 

Then you went all pissy to finally admit the ATS is styled conservatively...

The CTS coupe of a couple years ago was FUGLY, it did not sell NOT because it pushed the boundaries too far, its because the man with the ugly stick touched it.

 

 

 

LOL.. at U.. saying I went all "Pissy." 

LOL at U sayin that the the CTS-Coupe didn't sell, when the actual product mix went like this:

 

2011 Coupe 27%

2011 Sedan 70%

2011 Wagon 3%

2012 Coupe 27%

2012 Sedan 70%

2012 Wagon 4%

2013 Coupe 29%

2013 Sedan 68%

2013 Wagon 3%

2014 Coupe 29%

2014 Sedan 69%

2014 Wagon 2%

 

if coming in at almost 30% of sales is "did not sell well" then U are an even bigger idiot than I thought.   Now that's pissy.

 

Your assessment on the ATS pricing is hilarious.. considering the 3series and ATS are neck and neck in pricing. Furthermore.. as I pointed out.. Google could point out. or just having a brain that works.. could point out.. mainstream cars with options can easily be priced around an entry level luxo. . 

 

Lastly.. conservative styling of the ATS is a fact of the segment. The ATS is conservative in the FRONT.. again.. til U get into the Performance level lighting and such. The overall look and shape of the car is gorgeous.

 

The boy racer comments are stupid. Especially if U kno that the augmentation in looks are functional and aid in performance.

[ccap41]

Well 30% of nothing is still nothing!      I kid I kid..

 

Okay well we can compare random month and year sales for comparison to see if it is actually good. 

 

August 2015

CTS Sales: 1730 * .3 = 519 CTS Coupes sold

4 Series: 2940 Cars sold

Just numbers... 

 

Does the CTS and 3/4 series compete..Ehhh I feel like the CTS Coupe is kind of a tweener size.. but the previous gen I'd say was definitely closer to the current 4 Series. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Well 30% of nothing is still nothing!      I kid I kid..

 

Okay well we can compare random month and year sales for comparison to see if it is actually good. 

 

August 2015

CTS Sales: 1730 * .3 = 519 CTS Coupes sold

4 Series: 2940 Cars sold

Just numbers... 

 

Does the CTS and 3/4 series compete..Ehhh I feel like the CTS Coupe is kind of a tweener size.. but the previous gen I'd say was definitely closer to the current 4 Series. 

 

 

The CTS Coupe stopped production in 2013 only leaving the CTS-V Coupe in  production til the 2nd quarter of 2014. That might explain some of those numbers... as it wasn't even being produced in 2015, and just selling off what was left. 

[oldshurst442]

Whatever Casa...

 

Bottom line is:

Its an opinion based thread.

To boot, you even admitted that the ATS is conservatively styled.

My concern was exactly that.

 

What Cadillac means to me?

Cadillac is bigger than life and their cars no matter what segment they reside in should reflect all aspects of that.

 

Ill give you the ATS-V....but its still boy racer.

Sorry dude, but the stylists of the ATS-V had the 1989 W-Body Pontiac GP Turbo and consequent GT and GTPs in mind when they did the ATS-V.

 

Functional or not....still boy racer...

Deny, ignore and suppress....

 

[oldshurst442]

As far as the didnt sell part...

 

OK...you got me...on a semantic technicality....

30% of nothing is.....

 

CCAP might be kidding around, but GM bean counters were not...

 

The Autoline Detroit interview with JDN....he mentioned that when the next product line is about to be talked about, the accounting guys are ready to discuss and let the engineers know what models made money...

 

The CTS coupe shared very very little with the sedan....

I wonder how much money was made on it....

 

Yeah Casa....you got me...the CTS coupe was a stupendous success story in the market place...

It sure made a dent in BMW coupe sales....

That is why BMW has cut back on its small coupes....

There is no 2 Series and no 4 Series....but Cadillac has got an ATS coupe and a CTS coupe....

Wait what?

 

The ATS was supposed to replace the CTS and the CTS was supposed to be more in line with a 5 Series...while the ATS is in line with the 3 Series...

2 Series 4 Series and 6 Series.....

 

Cadillac has got the ATS....plus the Camaro....

Because the CTS coupe was such a sales hit!!!

 

Got it!!!

You sure set me straight....

[Cmicasa the Great]

As far as the didnt sell part...

 

OK...you got me...on a semantic technicality....

30% of nothing is.....

 

CCAP might be kidding around, but GM bean counters were not...

 

The Autoline Detroit interview with JDN....he mentioned that when the next product line is about to be talked about, the accounting guys are ready to discuss and let the engineers know what models made money...

 

The CTS coupe shared very very little with the sedan....

I wonder how much money was made on it....

 

Yeah Casa....you got me...the CTS coupe was a stupendous success story in the market place...

It sure made a dent in BMW coupe sales....

That is why BMW has cut back on its small coupes....

There is no 2 Series and no 4 Series....but Cadillac has got an ATS coupe and a CTS coupe....

Wait what?

 

The ATS was supposed to replace the CTS and the CTS was supposed to be more in line with a 5 Series...while the ATS is in line with the 3 Series...

2 Series 4 Series and 6 Series.....

 

Cadillac has got the ATS....plus the Camaro....

Because the CTS coupe was such a sales hit!!!

 

Got it!!!

You sure set me straight....

 

 

 

Your attempts to rile me up are laughable. The ATS essentially replace the CTS in the Cadillac line and only the name goes back to what the second gen CTS was. The CTS currently is for all intents the STS from before. Thus.. no coupe. IN terms of sales the product mix:

 

2011 Coupe 27%

2011 Sedan 70%

2011 Wagon 3%

2012 Coupe 27%

2012 Sedan 70%

2012 Wagon 4%

2013 Coupe 29%

2013 Sedan 68%

2013 Wagon 3%

2014 Coupe 29%

2014 Sedan 69%

2014 Wagon 2% 

 

with almost 30% going to coupe sales 

 

2011  55,042

2012  46,979

2013  32,343

2014  31,115

 

Means that almost 15K were coupe sales in 2011. BMW's 3series sales, when it was a coupe and convertible were 15% of that mix. Meaning that Cadillac sold almost double.. by percentage.. of CTS Coupes than BMW did coupes and convertibles combined

 

Now go post a video or something clown

[ccap41]

 

Well 30% of nothing is still nothing!      I kid I kid..

 

Okay well we can compare random month and year sales for comparison to see if it is actually good. 

 

August 2015

CTS Sales: 1730 * .3 = 519 CTS Coupes sold

4 Series: 2940 Cars sold

Just numbers... 

 

Does the CTS and 3/4 series compete..Ehhh I feel like the CTS Coupe is kind of a tweener size.. but the previous gen I'd say was definitely closer to the current 4 Series. 

 

 

The CTS Coupe stopped production in 2013 only leaving the CTS-V Coupe in  production til the 2nd quarter of 2014. That might explain some of those numbers... as it wasn't even being produced in 2015, and just selling off what was left. 

 

That makes sense then, thank you.

 

Makes sense why there was such a drop of from year to year when I was looking at the numbers. Big difference. 

[ccap41]

 

As far as the didnt sell part...

 

OK...you got me...on a semantic technicality....

30% of nothing is.....

 

CCAP might be kidding around, but GM bean counters were not...

 

The Autoline Detroit interview with JDN....he mentioned that when the next product line is about to be talked about, the accounting guys are ready to discuss and let the engineers know what models made money...

 

The CTS coupe shared very very little with the sedan....

I wonder how much money was made on it....

 

Yeah Casa....you got me...the CTS coupe was a stupendous success story in the market place...

It sure made a dent in BMW coupe sales....

That is why BMW has cut back on its small coupes....

There is no 2 Series and no 4 Series....but Cadillac has got an ATS coupe and a CTS coupe....

Wait what?

 

The ATS was supposed to replace the CTS and the CTS was supposed to be more in line with a 5 Series...while the ATS is in line with the 3 Series...

2 Series 4 Series and 6 Series.....

 

Cadillac has got the ATS....plus the Camaro....

Because the CTS coupe was such a sales hit!!!

 

Got it!!!

You sure set me straight....

 

 

 

Your attempts to rile me up are laughable. The ATS essentially replace the CTS in the Cadillac line and only the name goes back to what the second gen CTS was. The CTS currently is for all intents the STS from before. Thus.. no coupe. IN terms of sales the product mix:

 

2011 Coupe 27%

2011 Sedan 70%

2011 Wagon 3%

2012 Coupe 27%

2012 Sedan 70%

2012 Wagon 4%

2013 Coupe 29%

2013 Sedan 68%

2013 Wagon 3%

2014 Coupe 29%

2014 Sedan 69%

2014 Wagon 2% 

 

with almost 30% going to coupe sales 

 

2011  55,042

2012  46,979

2013  32,343

2014  31,115

 

Means that almost 15K were coupe sales in 2011. BMW's 3series sales, when it was a coupe and convertible were 15% of that mix. Meaning that Cadillac sold almost double.. by percentage.. of CTS Coupes than BMW did coupes and convertibles combined

 

Now go post a video or something clown

 

 

While correct in % but with 3 series roughly doubling, in 2011, CTS sales at 94,153(and the ratio worsens beyond 2011 as CTS drop and 3 rise) they would still be selling the same total number of 3 Series coupes(now 4Series). They can just amortize the costs better and make a better business case for variants...which in my opinion they are way beyond number of choices at this point.. 3 Series Grand Turisno? One of the ugliest vehicles ever made. Proportions are dog $h!. 

[Frisky Dingo]

Lol at the last Esclade and especially an SRX 'exuding a sense of specialness'. Haha, wow. Talk about hyperbole.

 

The last gen CTS Coupe sucked. It was ugly, and totally uncompelling in anything other than V form.

[smk4565]

 

 

 

Sub-ATS could simply mean $3K less at $30K and slightly smaller…

Who is this demographic that is looking for a slightly smaller, slightly cheaper ATS @ Cadillac, exactly?

A billion dollars spent to develop this model that's a shave & a haircut smaller- there's simply no point to it.

 

Same demographic that buys the CLA... but later finds out its a POS.. Same buyer who will buy a 1 series or 2 series. And I doubt big time that it costs a billion$$ to develop the model.. Again.. when the newer ATS (CT3) will be a tad larger on the inside. I would also point out that while my preference is the Alpha platform be used.. I would have zero objection to a Dx vehicle that was a hatch or hybrid

OK… that's your take.

Mine is, there's no business case to bring out another sedan on the SAME PLATFORM as the ATS. I mean, hello?

And this is coming from someone who doesn't place all that much significance in what platform is under a vehicle.

 

CLA is moving copies (based on whoring out the badge), but the 1-2 series @ BMW is struggling.

But a FWD hatchback Cadillac??????????????????? What sort of sales analysis threads am I going to be reading there??

 

It's not where Cadillac came from, it's not where they need to go. 

The whole 'must match the German's catalogs' mindset has to die but some folks just won't let it go.

 

I agree.  The sub ATS product they need is a crossover.  They is always a business case for crossovers it now seems.  The XT5 is basically a midsize vehicle, they can get 2 crossovers smaller than it in the line up easily.  People don't want small sedans, look at the drop in Fiesta, Focus type cars, the Honda Fit basically dead, but the Trax, HR-V, and Mazda CX-3 are on the rise.   You can sell a compact crossover, hard to sell a compact sedan if you aren't already established in that segment.

[smk4565]

To me Cadillac is a challenger brand that isn't sure what direction it wants to go.  It lacks focus.  10-15 years ago, they saw the 3-series and 5-series were successful and said let's copy that.  For the 2010 SRX they saw the Lexus RX selling like crazy, so they made the SRX the same size with fwd to copy.  There isn't really a true strategy of what they stand for.  They want to have low weight, cut every gram possible sports sedans, but then their halo product is a 6,000 lb SUV in which they never bothered to cut any weight from. 

 

Now it seems like they will design cars to suit China, even though they still sell more Cadillacs here than they do in China.  I do think there are some at Cadillac that want to make stylish, great American cars, play on the heritage, while offering the technology of today.   However there are too many bean counters that will interfere, or those that will argue if we turn an Enclave into a Cadillac that is cheaper than making a CT6 based crossover, so let's just do the quick an easy route, offer discounts later to move metal.  So you get what you what we have now.  Concept cars and ideas that seam great, but get heavily watered down in the process.

 

I don't care for BMWs all that much, but if everything they do is so wrong, or if the cars are bland, or no longer sporty the i3 is ugly and stupid, etc, then why do they whip Cadillac so bad?  The BMW haters want to hate on them, but they are selling close to 2 million cars a year now.  I think BMW makes their fair share of mistakes, but the people keep buying them.

[smk4565]

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

 

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover.  A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac.  It doesn't make sense.  

[surreal1272]

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

 

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover.  A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac.  It doesn't make sense.

The Buick is midsize. Nice trolling though.

[surreal1272]

To me Cadillac is a challenger brand that isn't sure what direction it wants to go.  It lacks focus.  10-15 years ago, they saw the 3-series and 5-series were successful and said let's copy that.  For the 2010 SRX they saw the Lexus RX selling like crazy, so they made the SRX the same size with fwd to copy.  There isn't really a true strategy of what they stand for.  They want to have low weight, cut every gram possible sports sedans, but then their halo product is a 6,000 lb SUV in which they never bothered to cut any weight from. 

 

Now it seems like they will design cars to suit China, even though they still sell more Cadillacs here than they do in China.  I do think there are some at Cadillac that want to make stylish, great American cars, play on the heritage, while offering the technology of today.   However there are too many bean counters that will interfere, or those that will argue if we turn an Enclave into a Cadillac that is cheaper than making a CT6 based crossover, so let's just do the quick an easy route, offer discounts later to move metal.  So you get what you what we have now.  Concept cars and ideas that seam great, but get heavily watered down in the process.

 

I don't care for BMWs all that much, but if everything they do is so wrong, or if the cars are bland, or no longer sporty the i3 is ugly and stupid, etc, then why do they whip Cadillac so bad?  The BMW haters want to hate on them, but they are selling close to 2 million cars a year now.  I think BMW makes their fair share of mistakes, but the people keep buying them.

Mercedes certainly is not immune to the same exact failures but people keep buying them too. Something Barnum said comes to mind here.

[balthazar]

I agree.  The sub ATS product they need is a crossover.  They is always a business case for crossovers it now seems.  The XT5 is basically a midsize vehicle, they can get 2 crossovers smaller than it in the line up easily.  People don't want small sedans, look at the drop in Fiesta, Focus type cars, the Honda Fit basically dead, but the Trax, HR-V, and Mazda CX-3 are on the rise.   You can sell a compact crossover, hard to sell a compact sedan if you aren't already established in that segment.

 

 

You do NOT agree.

 

Tiny crossovers is NOT where Cadillac should be going, at the very least because 

It lacks focus

and Cadillac isn't

already established in that segment

AND because everyone wants them to stop saying

let's copy that

 

See what you did there??

[smk4565]

 

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

 

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover.  A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac.  It doesn't make sense.

The Buick is midsize. Nice trolling though.

 

It is?????

 

Buick Envision length 183.7 inches long

 

Chevrolet Cruze 183.7 in

Cadillac ATS 183.6 in

BMW X3  183.8 in

 

I always thought those were in the small segment.  

[smk4565]

 

I agree.  The sub ATS product they need is a crossover.  They is always a business case for crossovers it now seems.  The XT5 is basically a midsize vehicle, they can get 2 crossovers smaller than it in the line up easily.  People don't want small sedans, look at the drop in Fiesta, Focus type cars, the Honda Fit basically dead, but the Trax, HR-V, and Mazda CX-3 are on the rise.   You can sell a compact crossover, hard to sell a compact sedan if you aren't already established in that segment.

 

 

You do NOT agree.

 

Tiny crossovers is NOT where Cadillac should be going, at the very least because 

 

 

It lacks focus

and Cadillac isn't

 

 

already established in that segment

AND because everyone wants them to stop saying

 

 

let's copy that

 

See what you did there??

 

The market buys crossovers.  Problem is Cadillac's SUV/CUV/whatever aren't based on the Alpha and Omega platforms where they put all their engineering dollars.  And they only have 2 of them.

 

I agree there is no business case for a smaller than ATS sedan, the ATS sedan isn't really lighting up the sales chart to think people want a smaller, cheaper ATS.  

 

But Cadillac without crossovers will be out of business.  It has become the #1 selling body style.  

[surreal1272]

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover. A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac. It doesn't make sense.

The Buick is midsize. Nice trolling though.

It is?????

Buick Envision length 183.7 inches long

Chevrolet Cruze 183.7 in

Cadillac ATS 183.6 in

BMW X3 183.8 in

I always thought those were in the small segment.

Anyone notice that a 2016 Buick Envision (which is in the small segment and made in China) is $42,995, and the 2017 will have a $34,990 base model.

The Cadillac XT5 is $38,995, which is a mid-size crossover. A small Buick crossover is priced like a mid-size Cadillac. It doesn't make sense.

The Buick is midsize. Nice trolling though.

It is?????

Buick Envision length 183.7 inches long

Chevrolet Cruze 183.7 in

Cadillac ATS 183.6 in

BMW X3 183.8 in

I always thought those were in the small segment.

That is what it is called. Take it up with GM and just stop the stupid trolling nonsense.

For reference though, the GLA is a luxury compact and is ten inches shorter than the Envision. The GLK is also called a compact that is five inches shorter than the Envision. You see where I'm going yet or do you want to continue with your phantom issues?

Edited April 22, 2016 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

All I said was the Envision is in the small segment, yet priced on top of the XT5, which is mid-size and a Cadillac.  How is saying the Envision is in the small segment, but priced similar to the XT5 trolling?  It is the size of the vehicle and the price of the vehicle.   But as we talk about Cadillac and we know an XT3 is coming, which will be cheaper than XT5, if you take $5k off the XT5 you have a $33,995 X3, that is cheaper than an Envision.  Sure the XT5 price could rise, and XT3 priced at $38k, but it seems odd that Buick and Cadillac are so on top of each other.  

 

And the Mercedes GLC is 183.3 inches long, it is also in the small SUV segment.  Same size vehicle as the Envision.  How can the Envision be mid-size and the GLC be compact, when they are the same size?  In what world can you claim the Buick Envision is a mid-size SUV?   It doesn't make sense.