Cadillac wins midsize comparison about a blend of luxury and performance

[Suaviloquent]

http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparison-audi-s6-4-0t-quattro-vs-cadillac-cts-v-sport-vs-lexus-gs-f/

 

To sum up, the Cadillac won very well, and it stood the test of time.

 

Mainly, it was about delivering a solid blend of luxury and performance. And the Cadillac did it all, at a great price.

 

I think that's what is great about the win. The Merecedes E Class was excluded because it's due to be replaced and the 5 Series didn't represent Europe as well as the A6.

 

I think it shows maturity with design, that it can hold up after a few years pass by and the competitors try to catch up.

 

A great win for the home team!

[Cmicasa the Great]

Amzing isn't it? The American came in and took on Japan and Germany and beat both their tired asses AGAIN. The specs reiterate what I'm saying even more. The Caddy versus the Lexus is interesting in that the Lexus has a V8.. a whopping 47HP more, but the anemic torque band leaves the thing looking weak. The Cadillac, still manages to come within mere 10ths of the GS-F while not even being the Top dog CTS. $85K vs $71K.. while the CTSV still comes in at $2K less than the LExus.. and we all kno how that battle would end. 

[Suaviloquent]

I really think the Audi lost not because it was beaten outright by the Cadillac - it was the comfiest and fastest in a straight line. Age didn't get it either. Price though doesn't help.

 

It was just physics. The engine sits out in front of axle, and that hasn't changed in while. So it's not okay to pretend Audi has been always about beating BMW or any other handling benchmark. Steering fell short - but only because Lexus and Cadillac have finally meaningfully exceeded them. I think Quattro does help, but you can't kit an Audi any other way at that price, so you have to factor that in too. And AWD saps some steering feel because you can't use power oversteer. So I think digging the Audi for AWD is actually a little unfair on the car because the configuration has certain benefits and drawbacks for criteria set for vehicle dynamics.

 

And some folks said getting a 3.0T would have been even more comparable to the Cadillac.

 

Again, nice win - a true showing of longevity, but the Audi is 3 years older than the Cadillac, and like the E Class is probably also going to be replaced. And I still think they'll still have a physics disadvantage. The price was in line with the Cadillac being that, and I must add it had subjectively the most liked interior and interior tech interfaces.

 

I almost feel that the Lexus disappointed the most, because it lacks adjustable dampening, a must at that price, and a must for any top-end performance model in that segment. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Suaviloquent
fixing the goof

[Drew Dowdell]

The engine thing is the argument I've been making about the Cadillac 3.6 V6TT for a while... and the engine is capable of even higher numbers as indicated by the 464hp and 445 lb-ft of torque when in the ATS-V.  That puts it just 3 horsepower shy of the 5.0 liter Lexus, however, the Cadillac makes its 464hp at 5750rpm while you have you spin the Lexus up to 7,100 rpm to get to its 467... so the Cadillac would feel much more powerful.

 

Also, they screwed up this comparison... sorta.  Base price on a V-Sport is not $71k.  You can get all of the V-Sport performance at the $61k the V-Sport really bases at, and at that price you are still in a 333hp A6 rather than S6.  The $71k Cadillac CTS V-Sport is pretty much loaded to the gills, and at that price you're in a base S6. 

[Suaviloquent]

They had a Premium Plus S6, is that not above base? EDIT - The lack of sleep shows. I read the price comparo wrong.... The bloody S6 cost $7000!!!! more.

 

But yeah the Cadillac was indeed fully loaded. 

 

Expect in MT's own records a an A6 3.0T Quattro puts comparable 0-60 and quarter mile numbers to the VSport as it is.. I mean if they can forgo the AWD distinction, I think its fair to override it again. 

 

Cadillac needs to put AWD on VSport, and they're going to. It's just a matter of when. 

 

The LF4 does have the low-interia turbochargers though.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Suaviloquent
I done goofed. Sue me

[El Kabong]

Cadillac has firmly established itself as a player in the luxury-sport segment. Now it's a matter of getting consumers to ditch the brand snobbery.

[Suaviloquent]

Not really. GM needs to introduce AWD to the CTS VSport, otherwise it'll never get the chance to sell to some buyers entirely. Variants. Yes, that's why GM is working on 11 new models for Cadillac.

 

I suppose that really means 3-5 new entire models and the rest being a variant of those.

 

Brand snobbery isn't much of a thing anymore. It's about value propositions and brand identity.  

 

A snob for Cadillac is a a snob like anyone else. Some people don't give a single damn about 0-60 or figure 8 times. In that case the Audi handily beat everyone in interior quality, being the oldest of all 3, and it's tech is the best in the business.

 

Now Cadillac needs to just bridge that gap just a bit more. But if someone wanted more of a sleeper look, more reserved, the Audi is hard to beat. And besides, this is just a prequel to the real comparison that will happen : the CTS versus the new E Class with comparable models.

 

I think it'll turn out just like the Mercedes C63 versus ATS-V. Not that it's a bad thing. But Cadillac needs to continue to evolve.

 

And Cadillac would love to be in the position where it charged more than anyone else. I'd hate for Cadillac to settle for some value pricing model for luxury. That's just not good for the long-run brand image. 

[Frisky Dingo]

Obviously not a popular opinion, but the Caddy would be my last pick here. Not because I dislike it, but because I like the S6 so much. I've been lucky enough to get some seat time in the S7, and that powertrain is just a gem. Add that to AWD and Audi's stunning interiors, and I'm sold. For the Lexus, I know it is going to be a pretty uncommon piece, and I'd rather have an NA V8 over a boosted 6. So it's the Caddy in last for me.

[ccap41]

I'm actually not sure which I would take out of this bunch. Being in the mid-west and usually getting more snow than we did this year would have me leaning towards the S6 right from the get-go because fairly wide tires(275's) on a RWD car make for not the best winter vehicle. I don't make high speed runs but the pull from an AWD car over RWD would be pretty awesome as well. The interior definitely LOOKS nicer in the Audi as well, without sitting in any of them. A close second is the Lexus though. Most of all I know I wouldn't be taking advantage of a superior chassis over AWD 99% of the time. Plus, being a smidgen quicker to 60 & 100 with a V8 is a bonus. Actually, if I'm being honest, If I can afford a 70k or whatever these rang up at I don't care about the fuel economy advantage of the turbo 6 in the Cadillac.

 

Just looked and the Audi is rated at 18/27 and the Caddy is rated at 16/24.  

[oldshurst442]

Put aside my alliance with Cadillac,  this is a tough choice for me to make in the real world.

 

Like CCAP said, living in snow country, FWD or AWD means more to me than anything else, but in this category, AWD is kinda useless, the extra heft nullifies the nature of these beasts...Id almost never buy the AWD version of a RWD sports sedan....yes I now, the Audi is not RWD based...its still a sports sedan with RWD intentions...and I am very very impressed with Audi's interiors...

And the Audi has a V8 motor as compared to a V6 in the V-Sport Cadillac.

 

Therefore...both Cadillac CTS V-Sport and Audi S6 both have qualities that I dearly respect for the real world.

But there is one criteria from the real world that I will use to determine the winner for me...and its based off of emotional and visual cues.

 

Its too bad the Audi S6 is bland and boring and still looks like its predecessor from a decade ago.

Some like that conservative styling...and I also like it...had it not been for the fact that the A6/S6 looks EXACTLY like a stretched A4/S4...

So that makes 2 faults with the visuals of the A6/S6...OK 1.5 faults as I do like the conservative styling of the A6/S6...and i could easily live with the bland conservative styling...but it looks toooo much like its smaller brother...

 

This is where Cadillac shines. It looks nothing like its siblings, still has that familiar Arts and Science Cadillac look while still keeping it different but same, has that Cadillac boldness but at the same time reserved, unlike its hotter boy racer version the "V".

 

So based on emotions...because enthusiast cars are all about the numbers, but also about emotions....the Cadillac wins for me.

 

On a side note...I wish the Cadillac CTS V used all that aero packaging like it does now, but the styling toned down quite a bit so it wouldnt have been so boy racer....

 

I keep saying this all the time: The only full on boy racer styling I like on cars is Lamborghinis and Pontiacs.

Subaru WRX STis and classic muscle cars.

Edited March 10, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

[surreal1272]

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

Audi is a way bigger offender in the "lookalike" category than Cadillac, but you have a point.

[oldshurst442]

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

No Frisky....

 

The CTS looks NOTHING like the ATS...nor the CT6.

 

The ATS...looks like a cross between last generation CTS and new CTS, but the new CTS has a much much different front end...even the average Joe could tell it apart. The CT6...well yeah...part of the Arts and Science family...but waaay different.

 

The XTS...looks like a whale.  A stance that has a very nose heavy feel about it. Even Average Joes can see that a mile away. The least attractive of the Cadillacs, and its going away.

 

 

 

 

 

Different length of sausages.

 

Cadillac on the other hand...has similar features...sure...but there is a slight variation to each where it does not seem like same sausage different length.

The lines across the bodies are waaaaay different but with Audi and now Mercedes-Benz, they keep the same body lines as well..

 

Same stance...but different lines to achieve same stance.

 

 

This one leans less front wards and it seems to be more level...

Has about the same side lines as the CTS, but different enough.

 

The XTS...just a whale...

 

Do the same with Audi, and you will see that the body lines are identical...just the length of the body changes...

 

The Average Joe could actually pick up those slight difference in the Cadillacs...but even enthusiasts have a hard time telling the difference in the Audis from afar. 

 

If people cant tell the differences in the Cadillacs, its because those people wont know the different between a Ford Fusion and an Aston Martin anyway...and even then, I had a customer tell me the 2013 Ford Fusion looks like a Jaguar...so...those people are hopeless anyway...

Edited March 10, 2016 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

 

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

Audi is a way bigger offender in the "lookalike" category than Cadillac, but you have a point.

 

I somewhat agree but the newest CTS and CT6 will be as easily mistaken as the A3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10..in my opinion.. The ATS definitely has a more different look to(two different generations. I think the next gen ATS or whatever they call it will fall in line and also be easily mistaken for a CTS/6 as well) it but I think the CTS and CT6 are about on par with the "Classes" at MB, the "Series" at BMW, and the #s at Audi in how similar they are to their siblings. 

[surreal1272]

 

 

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

Audi is a way bigger offender in the "lookalike" category than Cadillac, but you have a point.

 

I somewhat agree but the newest CTS and CT6 will be as easily mistaken as the A3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10..in my opinion.. The ATS definitely has a more different look to(two different generations. I think the next gen ATS or whatever they call it will fall in line and also be easily mistaken for a CTS/6 as well) it but I think the CTS and CT6 are about on par with the "Classes" at MB, the "Series" at BMW, and the #s at Audi in how similar they are to their siblings. 

 

Yeah, it's never been a big deal to me when a company go for keeping a familiar look across their lineup. That's part of brand recognition. I just think Audis are the hardest to tell apart from afar, whereas I don't have that kind of "issue" with Cadillacs. 

[ccap41]

Beautiful cars. They just look very VERY similar to people who aren't us, enthusiasts. 

 

 

 

 

 

An A6/S6 looks no more like an A4/S4 than a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

Audi is a way bigger offender in the "lookalike" category than Cadillac, but you have a point.

 

I somewhat agree but the newest CTS and CT6 will be as easily mistaken as the A3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10..in my opinion.. The ATS definitely has a more different look to(two different generations. I think the next gen ATS or whatever they call it will fall in line and also be easily mistaken for a CTS/6 as well) it but I think the CTS and CT6 are about on par with the "Classes" at MB, the "Series" at BMW, and the #s at Audi in how similar they are to their siblings. 

 

Yeah, it's never been a big deal to me when a company go for keeping a familiar look across their lineup. That's part of brand recognition. I just think Audis are the hardest to tell apart from afar, whereas I don't have that kind of "issue" with Cadillacs. 

 

Yeah, for the most part I like the similarity and Audi is the worst offender but luckily I think one looks good so I think they all look good. lol

[oldshurst442]

Like I said...Cadillacs are different enough from each other, yet look the same...but still have a different enough look about them.

We could argue about what the Average Joe sees in his eyes until the cows come home, Audis have the EXACT body lines and stances across the board, while Cadillac differentiates that slightly. 

 

Therefore, just to recap my post about why I chose the Cadillac CTS V-Sport over the Audi S6...

Visually, the Cadillac CTS V-Sport for me...has that perfect balance of Cadillac boldness and conservativeness while looking slightly different from its other Arts and Science siblings, while the Audi S6...may be a tad too conservative for me, which I dont really mind at all, it looks tooo much like its smaller A4/S4 brother which is a deal breaker for me concerning the comparison between the Audi and the Cadillac...

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm going to go with another unpopular opinion here and say that I would go with the XTS V-Sport.  I'm not the competitive type, I have no need to prove my manhood with stop-light drag races.  I prefer the size and comfort of the XTS over any of these three, and living where I live, AWD is a requirement.   I like the air suspension on the XTS also.  Combined with magnetic ride control, it can make the ride soft or taut. 

[Suaviloquent]

I'm going to go with another unpopular opinion here and say that I would go with the XTS V-Sport.  I'm not the competitive type, I have no need to prove my manhood with stop-light drag races.  I prefer the size and comfort of the XTS over any of these three, and living where I live, AWD is a requirement.   I like the air suspension on the XTS also.  Combined with magnetic ride control, it can make the ride soft or taut. 

 

Cooler heads prevail.

 

Now I wanna secretly pledge my allegiance to the flag of the United States of Lincoln Continental.

[ccap41]

I'm going to go with another unpopular opinion here and say that I would go with the XTS V-Sport.  I'm not the competitive type, I have no need to prove my manhood with stop-light drag races.  I prefer the size and comfort of the XTS over any of these three, and living where I live, AWD is a requirement.   I like the air suspension on the XTS also.  Combined with magnetic ride control, it can make the ride soft or taut. 

*Cough*  the XTS V-Sport was not in this comparison  *Cough*

 

But in all seriousness... That is possibly the least attractive of all luxury branded, cars in my opinion(if extended to "vehicles" the X4/GLE would take the cake). I just am not a fan of the proportions more than anything else. Probably a fantastic cruiser and daily driver...just can't get on board with the looks compared to the rest of Cadillac's vehicles. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by ccap41

[ccap41]

 

I'm going to go with another unpopular opinion here and say that I would go with the XTS V-Sport.  I'm not the competitive type, I have no need to prove my manhood with stop-light drag races.  I prefer the size and comfort of the XTS over any of these three, and living where I live, AWD is a requirement.   I like the air suspension on the XTS also.  Combined with magnetic ride control, it can make the ride soft or taut. 

 

Cooler heads prevail.

 

Now I wanna secretly pledge my allegiance to the flag of the United States of Lincoln Continental.

 

I like this idea... Although even less sporty than the 3 listed, more along the lines of the XTS but a gorgeous car in person, I'd like a 400hp Lincoln in my driveway. 

[Frisky Dingo]

Anyone who says the Cadillac models don't look like one another is just lying to themselves. Sorry. There's nothing wrong with it, but no reasonable person would say there is anymore distinction between Cadillac models than Audi models. They're both pretty big offenders of the 'same sausage, different length' mentality. BMW is a little better, Jaguar is a little worse. MB's all look the EXACT SAME.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Definitely no worse than Cadillac, sorry.

 

 

 

And you can't use the fanboy argument here, either. I'm just calling it like it is.

[oldshurst442]

Anyone who says the Cadillac models don't look like one another is just lying to themselves. Sorry. There's nothing wrong with it, but no reasonable person would say there is anymore distinction between Cadillac models than Audi models. They're both pretty big offenders of the 'same sausage, different length' mentality. BMW is a little better, Jaguar is a little worse. MB's all look the EXACT SAME.

No Frisky...they dont look exactly the same...especially the way the Audis do...

 

Anyone who says differently is trying to justify an obvious biased opinion...

 

I showed pics...with the Cadillacs...

 

The ATS and the CTS look like they lean forward...as does the XTS...but the XTS has obvious FWD forward leaning stances...but the ATS and the CTS have that look because the body lines are designed that way...

 

The CTS has a body line that starts form the front wheel well and goes upwards towards the back crosses both door handles  and ends at the top of the back lights.

 

The ATS has that also, but its very very subtle...while retaining the lean forward look...

 

But because its so subtle...keen eyes need to notice that, but with the CTS its very apparent...

 

The CT6...the body lines are the same...the same line that starts from the front wheel well, crosses both door handles and finishes at the top of the backlights...but the CT6 stance is more level...it does not lean forward...at all...

It actually looks laid back rather than go get her forward.

 

And the body lines are not drawn at the same angles...

 

Sure...someone could confuse that...but that someone could not tell a Ford from a Ferrari...

In Audis case...

 

 

 

 

 

The same body line is the same across the board...the same stance...the same green house...

The same body line that starts from the top of the front headlight...crosses the side profile at exactly the same angle and finishes at the exact same spot which is at the top of the back light....having the same visual impact and the same profile and stance...

 

An observant Average Joe could actually tell the difference with Cadillac cars...

An enthusiast has difficulty with Audis from afar.

 

That is the BIG difference...

You could argue all you want...and at the end of the day..its just an opinion that you and I hold...

But...please...dont try to justify your bias...

 

I...have justified my biases with deep explanations and pics...

Do the same if you want to be on an equal footing with me.

Edited March 11, 2016 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

Anyone who says the Cadillac models don't look like one another is just lying to themselves. Sorry. There's nothing wrong with it, but no reasonable person would say there is anymore distinction between Cadillac models than Audi models. They're both pretty big offenders of the 'same sausage, different length' mentality. BMW is a little better, Jaguar is a little worse. MB's all look the EXACT SAME.

No one said that (that I'm aware of) Frisky. I merely stated that Audis were the worst offenders (especially when you throw in CUVs into the mix). I think BMWs are just as bad but again, that's just my opinion. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by surreal1272

[hyperv6]

Come on you guys are more above this silly argument.

Every car in this segment all look alike for the most part and it is up to the buyer to chose the size and price they can afford.

Audi they all have a similar look, Benz all much alike, Cadillac they all look like sisters. BMW has been building the same damn cars in different sizes for nearly 40 years. So cut the crap and be honest they all look alike.

Now that is not a bad thing. You buy the size and price you can afford nothing wrong with that. Now Cadillac ans Audi hold an advantage here as they do not have to worry about the bare bones cars that Benz and BMW do for taxi, Fleet and police sales. They Cadillac and Audi both have other divisions to do the heavy volume lifting.

As for the time line we much remember to this point we have yet to see Cadillac's direction under JDN. Here is the time line we are on.

JDN arrives August 2014

2015 we see some changes in marketing with Dare Greatly and improvements in Cue.

2016 we will see the last of the old GM Cadillac's in the XT5 and CT6 going into production. We will see the second stage of the multi staged marketing of the Dare with You Dare now buring up the internet. [Yes it has proven very popular]

2017 We should see a refresh of the ATS and maybe the CTS to their CT status. This should give us an idea of the direction they will be going.

2018-2020 we should see more CUV and SUV models. These should be the models in planning with more JDN approved design.

2020 THe CT8 should arrive as the first full JDN design from start to finish with no GM interference.

What is good here is the move to NYC is more about isolation from GM. This will keep them more independent in their decision. Also the Autonomy of Cadillac is going to be spot on. Today only Cadillac designers and engineers will work on their product. No more engineers working a year on the CTS and then working on the next Sonic. Audi does this now as no VW people work on Audi.

Also we will start to see their own engines. They will beat of the soul of Cadillac only power plants. This is what builds image and adds value to the line. Chevy engines are great but the problem is they are still Chevy engines. You pay more you want more value for your money. Like a Ferrari and a Fiat. You can get away with a Ferrari engine in a Fiat but you can not get away with a Fiat engine in a Ferrari can you?

Same with platforms. We should still see the basic sharing of the main parts but much of the platforms will not be sharing many parts. They will be wider longer stiffer and have more added content than the lesser GM models. Most will start out as a Cadillac first and then be dumbed down to a Chevy or Buick. You can take a better model and move it down but never up. The Caprice Fleetwood was wrong but a CTS to Camaro works. Lincoln needs to remember this before they do a Lincoln on the Mustang. They need to make it a Lincoln first then a Mustang.

What I like is we have a damn good car now. It is on the level of most in the segment and per JDN it is not good enough. I like that. Just competing and winning is not enough. Domination is what he wants to where there is no question what car is better. This eliminates the debate etc. Now to keep there will require more work and investment as the others will not remain still.

As for Cadillac working more based on the profit per vehicle more than the volume is also smart. Cadillac is no longer a car just for anyone. It is going to become a car that is only for those with the means. This will force out want a be posers and the bingo hall grandmothers in Boco Vistas. {Jerry you want to see my Astronaut pen} We all saw that episode and it was the truth of where Cadillac was.

This stuff will take time, investment and more work to win the trust of the customer to where they will feel they are for once getting the best and how it reflects on them.

I really expect more Dares like "We Dare You to try our cars and see they are the best" Once the cars are to that point call the customers bluff and make them curious.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm going to go with another unpopular opinion here and say that I would go with the XTS V-Sport. I'm not the competitive type, I have no need to prove my manhood with stop-light drag races. I prefer the size and comfort of the XTS over any of these three, and living where I live, AWD is a requirement. I like the air suspension on the XTS also. Combined with magnetic ride control, it can make the ride soft or taut.

*Cough* the XTS V-Sport was not in this comparison *Cough*

But in all seriousness... That is possibly the least attractive of all luxury branded, cars in my opinion(if extended to "vehicles" the X4/GLE would take the cake). I just am not a fan of the proportions more than anything else. Probably a fantastic cruiser and daily driver...just can't get on board with the looks compared to the rest of Cadillac's vehicles.

I know it wasn't in the comparison. If I was limited to just these three, I'd still stick with the Cadillac. Size and comfort are just higher priorities to me than sports appearance or race deciding stats. I'd be perfectly fine with the XTS Vsport power train and suspension in a Lacrosse.

Grace, pace, space.

[oldshurst442]

OK...with that being said...

 

Could I actually keep my opinion that I prefer the Cadillac CTS-V Sport over the Audi S6 because the CTS looks a lot less than its other brothers than the Audi S6 does to the Audi A4/S4?

 

I stand by what I said...

It might be a petty childish argument, but my argument holds water...and nobody will ever change that...

And Im sure you folk will hold on to your opinions just as strong as I do mine...

 

But I did post pics and explain them  to prove how I view things...rather than just use blanket statement words that everybody is guilty of producing cars that look the same...

 

 

No drama we said...

Cool...

 

Its funny though, I got one poster trying to refute my opinion of preference and another telling me (and others) to cut the crap....

Yet...reality is...Cadillac as of 2016...does NOT produce cars that look EXACTLY the same...like others do...

They look similar, sure...

 

Oldsmobile...

 

 

Cadillac might not be as differentiated as Oldsmobile was in similarity, but they are not as close as some of us want to portray either...

And THAT is the God's honest truth...

 

It is NOT a bad thing for Audi or BMW or even Cadillac to do that...

I do prefer the Oldsmobile way rather than the Audi way...

 

From one extreme to the other and Cadillac as of now, is in the middle.

This will surely change...but as of 2016...not as guilty as the others...

Edited March 11, 2016 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

First of this is like a comparison test to find 3rd place as the two big guns of the segment aren't here.  But that being said, I think the most telling thing about this companion is the top end Lexus GS-F is matched up against mid-level competitors and still loses on performance.  And the GS-F isn't a cheap car either.  They want CTS-V or RS6 or M5 type of money for a car that has  no where near that level of performance.  Lexus is still trotting out the 3.5 V6 and 5.0 V8 from the 2008 IS350 and IS-F, but it is 2016 and the GS.  That is just plain sad.

 

The CTS is probably the best of these three, the Audi is aging, and I'd still take the Audi's interior as the best in the group, but overall I think they picked the right winner.    I would have liked to see the 550i in that mix to see what happened, even though there is a new 5-series in 2017.

 

My complaint about the E-class is they don't really have a light performance model since they killed the E550.  You have the 330 or 360 hp 3 liter V6 (depending on what they offer) and then a gap to the 577 hp E63.  I don't like that they make buyers go to the CLS to get a V8 now.  I hope they have something in the 400 hp range on the new E.

[oldshurst442]

First of this is like a comparison test to find 3rd place as the two big guns of the segment aren't here.  But that being said, I think the most telling thing about this companion is the top end Lexus GS-F is matched up against mid-level competitors and still loses on performance.  And the GS-F isn't a cheap car either.  They want CTS-V or RS6 or M5 type of money for a car that has  no where near that level of performance.  Lexus is still trotting out the 3.5 V6 and 5.0 V8 from the 2008 IS350 and IS-F, but it is 2016 and the GS.  That is just plain sad.

 

The CTS is probably the best of these three, the Audi is aging, and I'd still take the Audi's interior as the best in the group, but overall I think they picked the right winner.    I would have liked to see the 550i in that mix to see what happened, even though there is a new 5-series in 2017.

 

My complaint about the E-class is they don't really have a light performance model since they killed the E550.  You have the 330 or 360 hp 3 liter V6 (depending on what they offer) and then a gap to the 577 hp E63.  I don't like that they make buyers go to the CLS to get a V8 now.  I hope they have something in the 400 hp range on the new E.

One thing that Im disappointed in with the comparo test is that the BMW and M-B were not tested.

I would have like to see not only how the Caddy fits in with the new offerings from BMW and M-B, but the Audi as well...

 

I just googled the A6...it has only been on the market for 4 years...but it might as well be an eternity.

The CTS is only 2 years younger, but Cadillac came to play hard with this generation CTS and the other two Germans are new.

 

I agree with the interior of the A6...its awesome...

[cp-the-nerd]

I'd love to see the CTS V-Sport refreshed with the powertrain from the ATS-V. The current V-Sport is plenty sufficient... BUT... if the competition starts catching up too much (the Caddy was the slowest one here) that 464 horsepower engine and GM's outstanding new 8-speed (V-sport uses an older, outsourced gearbox) would shave quite a bit off acceleration times without stepping on the full fledged V's toes.

Edited March 11, 2016 by cp-the-nerd

[El Kabong]

Given that Motor Trend just declared the Camaro SS to be the winner in a comparo versus an M4, I'd say that ANYTHING that is spun off the Alpha platform is quite capable of taking on all comers, regardless of brand or country of origin.

Excellence of execution: when you got it, you need not run from anything.

Edited March 11, 2016 by El Kabong

[smk4565]

 

First of this is like a comparison test to find 3rd place as the two big guns of the segment aren't here.  But that being said, I think the most telling thing about this companion is the top end Lexus GS-F is matched up against mid-level competitors and still loses on performance.  And the GS-F isn't a cheap car either.  They want CTS-V or RS6 or M5 type of money for a car that has  no where near that level of performance.  Lexus is still trotting out the 3.5 V6 and 5.0 V8 from the 2008 IS350 and IS-F, but it is 2016 and the GS.  That is just plain sad.

 

The CTS is probably the best of these three, the Audi is aging, and I'd still take the Audi's interior as the best in the group, but overall I think they picked the right winner.    I would have liked to see the 550i in that mix to see what happened, even though there is a new 5-series in 2017.

 

My complaint about the E-class is they don't really have a light performance model since they killed the E550.  You have the 330 or 360 hp 3 liter V6 (depending on what they offer) and then a gap to the 577 hp E63.  I don't like that they make buyers go to the CLS to get a V8 now.  I hope they have something in the 400 hp range on the new E.

One thing that Im disappointed in with the comparo test is that the BMW and M-B were not tested.

I would have like to see not only how the Caddy fits in with the new offerings from BMW and M-B, but the Audi as well...

 

I just googled the A6...it has only been on the market for 4 years...but it might as well be an eternity.

The CTS is only 2 years younger, but Cadillac came to play hard with this generation CTS and the other two Germans are new.

 

I agree with the interior of the A6...its awesome...

 

The 2016 E-class dates back to summer of 2009, and is out of production now.  No point in comparing it, since they just have left overs on the dealer lots now.  The 2017 model is in production, but only has the 4-cylinder at launch.  But there is much more coming, and a Maybach E-class is deep in the development stage, which will be untouchable in this segment.

[regfootball]

Caddy has some styling issues to fix.  ATS is a nice looking rig but its just too damned small to sell well.  CTS beak is not attractive and the rest of the car lacks presence, proportioning is sort of old school too.  CT6 is a larger CTS in looks, with an odd beak also.  There is some awkwardness elsewhere as well.  XTS is a nice looking FWD egg, but is it a real luxury car, or an appliance with a luxury grille?  ATS coupe sorta has that aura of 'this is what the SECOND EVER Pontiac G6 coupe would have looked like'.

 

The whole sweeping back headlight and vertical LED pipes on the front with the bombastic in your face grille and sculpting is not fully finessed yet and to be honest maybe it should be redone.  And with these outrageous fronts we get the same bland ass lines on every Cadillac.  The rear brake light spoiler thingies on the sports models are even more unluxury.

 

I like the Caddys but cmon if they were as sexy as a Tesla Model S (yes i think they look good despite not banging Tesla) maybe they would sell.  A line full of cars that only sell 20,000 a year each makes it really tough to justify each model, and the brand, doesn't it?

 

And then this new XT5 will come out and will outsell the sedans combined.  Caddy may sell 80-100k of the XT5 by itself.  redoing all the sedans may not move the sales meter much, but to even fill out the showroom and remain a relevant luxury maker they desperately need to find a new design language that buyers will seek out.  Either revert to Art and Science, or Elmiraj it, or farm out the styling.  Buick has already sold out some of the choices going Chinese Hyundai

Edited March 11, 2016 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

First of this is like a comparison test to find 3rd place as the two big guns of the segment aren't here.  But that being said, I think the most telling thing about this companion is the top end Lexus GS-F is matched up against mid-level competitors and still loses on performance.  And the GS-F isn't a cheap car either.  They want CTS-V or RS6 or M5 type of money for a car that has  no where near that level of performance.  Lexus is still trotting out the 3.5 V6 and 5.0 V8 from the 2008 IS350 and IS-F, but it is 2016 and the GS.  That is just plain sad.

 

The CTS is probably the best of these three, the Audi is aging, and I'd still take the Audi's interior as the best in the group, but overall I think they picked the right winner.    I would have liked to see the 550i in that mix to see what happened, even though there is a new 5-series in 2017.

 

My complaint about the E-class is they don't really have a light performance model since they killed the E550.  You have the 330 or 360 hp 3 liter V6 (depending on what they offer) and then a gap to the 577 hp E63.  I don't like that they make buyers go to the CLS to get a V8 now.  I hope they have something in the 400 hp range on the new E.

It has gone up against the other two before and finished either first or a very close second. I think they moved on as these were fresh meat.

The Benz got the nod for generally one subjective reason that could be debated and not a solid objective reason.

Kind of like a Heavy weight fight you can go all the rounds and be the better fighter but unless you get a knock out they will not give you the title. JDN understands this and that is why what they have is not good enough and he will set about to fix that. JDN is going for the knock out.

[hyperv6]

Caddy has some styling issues to fix.  ATS is a nice looking rig but its just too damned small to sell well.  CTS beak is not attractive and the rest of the car lacks presence, proportioning is sort of old school too.  CT6 is a larger CTS in looks, with an odd beak also.  There is some awkwardness elsewhere as well.  XTS is a nice looking FWD egg, but is it a real luxury car, or an appliance with a luxury grille?  ATS coupe sorta has that aura of 'this is what the SECOND EVER Pontiac G6 coupe would have looked like'.

 

The whole sweeping back headlight and vertical LED pipes on the front with the bombastic in your face grille and sculpting is not fully finessed yet and to be honest maybe it should be redone.  And with these outrageous fronts we get the same bland ass lines on every Cadillac.  The rear brake light spoiler thingies on the sports models are even more unluxury.

 

I like the Caddys but cmon if they were as sexy as a Tesla Model S (yes i think they look good despite not banging Tesla) maybe they would sell.  A line full of cars that only sell 20,000 a year each makes it really tough to justify each model, and the brand, doesn't it?

 

And then this new XT5 will come out and will outsell the sedans combined.  Caddy may sell 80-100k of the XT5 by itself.  redoing all the sedans may not move the sales meter much, but to even fill out the showroom and remain a relevant luxury maker they desperately need to find a new design language that buyers will seek out.  Either revert to Art and Science, or Elmiraj it, or farm out the styling.  Buick has already sold out some of the choices going Chinese Hyundai

If the ATS is too dmall buy the CTS. If the CTS is too Small buy the CT6. If that is too small the CT8 is coming.

As for styling the ATS is an old car now. It will see a refresh soon and I expect it will be more than we have seen on other GM models.

As for sales the CUE and the SUV will out sell all the cars. That is what people want today and that is why we will see 4 new models in the next couple years.

As for the XT5 you may not like it but it will sell as well or better than the other. GM was not going to mess too much with it for now and will expand on the other models coming.

You just need to let this play out more as you as well as the rest of us it takes no less than two years for a refresh, 2-4 for a revamp of a model in the works and 5 years for a new model. Being so we have yet to see any real product from the new system and management.

[Stew]

I would be hard torn between the S6 and V-Sport.  Both are fantastic with good strengths.  IMHO, the GS-F should have been a solid 3rd in this comparison.  They had a lot of complaints about it and that price!

[smk4565]

The ATS is not too small, it is the same size as a 3-series which has sold like hot cakes for 20 years. The ATS is 4-5 inches longer than a mid 2000s C-class. Size isn't the problem, poor packaging and cheap dash are.

On a related note to the dated GS with yesterday's IS-F power train, I saw a Lexus GX the other day with the 2015 grille and thought that is such a joke. The body panels from the A-piller back have not changed since 2002, it has a 4.7 liter V8 making 300 hp getting 14 mpg and people are still buying it. Why? And it looks to tall that it would tip over.

[ccap41]

Is the new C43 supposed to compete with these guys, S6/VSport? 

[Drew Dowdell]

Is the new C43 supposed to compete with these guys, S6/VSport? 

 

Sound like it

[ccap41]

 

Is the new C43 supposed to compete with these guys, S6/VSport? 

 

Sound like it

 

Seems to be at an interesting middle ground of the drive line. Turbo-6, AWD(fixed, 31/69 - front/rear), sub 400hp. 

[Stew]

I think that would be the E43 AMG announced today.  The C class is he 3 series/ATS/A4/IS competitor.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think that would be the E43 AMG announced today.  The C class is he 3 series/ATS/A4/IS competitor.

DOH!   

 

Stew is right!

[Frisky Dingo]

I don't think anyone is being dramatic. Just discussing. Nobody is insulting anyone. 

 

The A4 has notably differently shaped lights, both front and rear, than the A6, and the rear quarter window has a much different shape. It also has a more blunt front end.

 

The A8 has a much blockier design still, with almost completely rectangular shaped lights. The characteristic body line may be the same, along with the proportions, but the front bumpers differ a lot from car to car. All of the luxury makers are as guilty of this as the rest, really.

 

 

 

 

Someone brought up the new the E43 AMG, and I have to say I really, really like what I see so far. Think I'd peg #2 among this group, maybe even #1 pending reviews.

Also was next to a new GS-F in traffic this morning. Sounded great, and aside from the terrible wheels, looked awesome, too.

[ccap41]

 

I think that would be the E43 AMG announced today.  The C class is he 3 series/ATS/A4/IS competitor.

DOH!   

 

Stew is right!

 

Ha I didn't even realize I typed "C" instead of "E"!  

[Stew]

LOL, helps i had just been reading about it   I like what i am seeing there to!

[smk4565]

The E43 was the answer I was looking for.  I knew Mercedes couldn't kill the E550 and leave nothing but a 329 hp E400 and a 577 hp E63.   There had to be middle ground, and something sportier than the mainstream E-class.   What is notable about the E43 is peak torque hits at 2,500 rpm and holds til 5,000 rpm, and with the 9-speed and awd they will maximize the power.  Where as Lexus GS-F makes peak torque at like 5,000 rpm and never lives in its power band.

 

That S6 is really fast though, 400+ lb-ft at 1,400 rpm is pretty nuts.  Audi is really good at low end torque and AWD launching, sort of the Nissan GT-R of the sedan luxury sedan world.  But no doubt the E43 will run 4 rings around that nose heavy S6 in the corners.

[regfootball]

The ATS is not too small, it is the same size as a 3-series which has sold like hot cakes for 20 years. The ATS is 4-5 inches longer than a mid 2000s C-class. Size isn't the problem, poor packaging and cheap dash are.

On a related note to the dated GS with yesterday's IS-F power train, I saw a Lexus GX the other day with the 2015 grille and thought that is such a joke. The body panels from the A-piller back have not changed since 2002, it has a 4.7 liter V8 making 300 hp getting 14 mpg and people are still buying it. Why? And it looks to tall that it would tip over.

yes, actually that is right regarding the ATS.  The ATS is packaged poorly.  No rear seat room.  Tiny trunk.  And its needs a new interior.

 

Regarding the XT5, I like the new XT5.  There aren't the styling or packaging issues like Cadillac has on the sedans.

 

Cadillac has a one track mind.  You can have performance, or styling, or packaging, or luxury.  Can't rarely pick more than two.

[hyperv6]

I don't think anyone is being dramatic. Just discussing. Nobody is insulting anyone. 

 

The A4 has notably differently shaped lights, both front and rear, than the A6, and the rear quarter window has a much different shape. It also has a more blunt front end.

 

The A8 has a much blockier design still, with almost completely rectangular shaped lights. The characteristic body line may be the same, along with the proportions, but the front bumpers differ a lot from car to car. All of the luxury makers are as guilty of this as the rest, really.

 

 

 

 

Someone brought up the new the E43 AMG, and I have to say I really, really like what I see so far. Think I'd peg #2 among this group, maybe even #1 pending reviews.

Also was next to a new GS-F in traffic this morning. Sounded great, and aside from the terrible wheels, looked awesome, too.

An A6/S6 looks as much like an A4/S4 as a CTS does an ATS, XTS, or CT6. At a glance, the average person wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

[hyperv6]

The ATS is not too small, it is the same size as a 3-series which has sold like hot cakes for 20 years. The ATS is 4-5 inches longer than a mid 2000s C-class. Size isn't the problem, poor packaging and cheap dash are.

On a related note to the dated GS with yesterday's IS-F power train, I saw a Lexus GX the other day with the 2015 grille and thought that is such a joke. The body panels from the A-piller back have not changed since 2002, it has a 4.7 liter V8 making 300 hp getting 14 mpg and people are still buying it. Why? And it looks to tall that it would tip over.

yes, actually that is right regarding the ATS.  The ATS is packaged poorly.  No rear seat room.  Tiny trunk.  And its needs a new interior.

 

Regarding the XT5, I like the new XT5.  There aren't the styling or packaging issues like Cadillac has on the sedans.

 

Cadillac has a one track mind.  You can have performance, or styling, or packaging, or luxury.  Can't rarely pick more than two.

That is just it the packaging is the problem not the size. I expect that will be fixed with the refresh or at least improved.

A lot of the short comings of Cadillac are due to the design by committee and the GM interference. Compromises were made to make those who were still the problem inside GM happy. Mark has been fighting them till he was able to pull off the money and arrival of JDN.