1LE Designed To Beat GT350: Al Oppenheiser

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Then why was there a $75,000 Camaro? Why was it a thing?

 

And if this 1LE is better than that, why isn't it a $78,000 Camaro?

 

Answer me that question. Why is GM not pursuing the pricing structure that builds the brand?

Answer this question, El Kabong...

Too slow on the draw. I already did.

 

HA! 

 

Where's the beef?

Answer it again so I could see it.

Again, there is no problem. Which is the problem.

 

There is no problem for GM jacking up prices across the board. Why go for value for money when it's really value for value?

 

There's an age old term. If it is not broken, fix it.

 

I have no beefs with price.

 

The real thing is that the new Camaro variants give all the performance of the last Corvette without any of the exotic car compromises. So in turn, the cars should be priced similarly.

 

And the Corvette, IMO, should be priced right on point with Porsches. Tit for tat.

NAh...the Porsche is over priced....

Surreal even says so...

[El Kabong]

Again, there is no problem. Which is the problem.

There is no problem for GM jacking up prices across the board. Why go for value for money when it's really value for value?

There's an age old term. If it is not broken, fix it.

I have no beefs with price.

The real thing is that the new Camaro variants give all the performance of the last Corvette without any of the exotic car compromises. So in turn, the cars should be priced similarly.

And the Corvette, IMO, should be priced right on point with Porsches. Tit for tat.

Why? The Z06 already goes there FWIW, but beyond that why?

Porsche depends on the elevated prices of its lineup to survive as a brand, even (especially now?) within the confines of the VW Group.

Corvette? Not so much.

No. The Corvette is fine.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

 

Again, there is no problem. Which is the problem.

 

There is no problem for GM jacking up prices across the board. Why go for value for money when it's really value for value?

 

There's an age old term. If it is not broken, fix it.

 

I have no beefs with price.

 

The real thing is that the new Camaro variants give all the performance of the last Corvette without any of the exotic car compromises. So in turn, the cars should be priced similarly.

 

And the Corvette, IMO, should be priced right on point with Porsches. Tit for tat.

Why?

 

Dont ask a question without answering the one above it first...

 

Then why was there a $75,000 Camaro? Why was it a thing?

 

And if this 1LE is better than that, why isn't it a $78,000 Camaro?

 

Answer me that question. Why is GM not pursuing the pricing structure that builds the brand?

 

 

 

Dont bother...

 

 

 

This is all you want to hear...

 

Adios Amigos...

have a nice life Bong...

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Suaviloquent]

The question is why not?

 

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

[El Kabong]

The Z/28 thing was pretty straightforward: they had some LS7 engines knocking around and excess plant capacity. Slap on a nostalgic badge and spend a few months at the Nurburgring and tah-daah!

The question is why not?

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

I've already answered your question as regards Porsche. Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

Folks, this is all it really boils down to:

As I've said elsewhere: One Ford has been nothing but a problem for the Mustang. We cannot seriously expect Dearborn to match the engineering muscle of a company that builds three hi-po RWD platforms (Omega, Alpha, Y-chassis) for a standalone coupe. By the same token, we cannot seriously expect Ford to spend the same amount of effort on an engine configuration they are actively trying to get out of the rest of their lineup.

GM has used their economics to scale in this segment to devastating effect. They're the Golden State warriors, and it's almost unfair to watch.

[oldshurst442]

Folks, this is all it really boils down to:

As I've said elsewhere: One Ford has been nothing but a problem for the Mustang. We cannot seriously expect Dearborn to match the engineering muscle of a company that builds three hi-po RWD platforms (Omega, Alpha, Y-chassis) for a standalone coupe. By the same token, we cannot seriously expect Ford to spend the same amount of effort on an engine configuration they are actively trying to get out of the rest of their lineup.

GM has used their economics to scale in this segment to devastating effect. They're the Golden State warriors, and it's almost unfair to watch.

I blanked out after the first word...

 

All I keep reading is this:

 

Im done fraternizing wit you...so long buddy...

[El Kabong]

Eh. Whatever

[Suaviloquent]

And now why did I say the ATS is getting short-changed?

 

Okay, so it's important to protect the Corvette.... so why is the ATS not getting protected, especially the V-Coupe?

 

All that car is- is a $30,000 interior upgrade and exterior skin.

 

And the Camaro looks better, has more performance goodies, and most importantly had the correct engine has the better interior tech and costs less... There's no building of value. And El Kabongs of the world, the guys who read car mags and buy the numbers, well they can gorge on underpriced Camaros, when GM could just charge that much more, and GM would be better off financially.

 

And really, personal question aside, would the Camaro be any less special as well if it was actually $58,000 to start for the 1LE. Priced right on top of the Mustang GT350 - but with better predicted performance? 

 

The answer is of course not. The Camaro is certainly worth more, and it seems like the 1LE gives better performance than the base Stingray, while being priced right on top of it too.

 

There no rational reason why they are not charging more other than volume pricing goals. And honestly, the product planners agree with me. They didn't let Al price the car below $40k, which might disrupt... but might also leave a lot of money on the table. 

[Suaviloquent]

A lot of money is being left on the table.

 

And yeah, I don't expect Ford to compete as well, but they have the gusto to charge more than GM, and get away with it.

 

But their car is more of a departure to. Its looks vastly different than the regular Mustangs, while 1LE is more of a wider fender and wheel exterior upgrade.

[Suaviloquent]

The Z/28 thing was pretty straightforward: they had some LS7 engines knocking around and excess plant capacity. Slap on a nostalgic badge and spend a few months at the Nurburgring and tah-daah!

The question is why not?

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

I've already answered your question as regards Porsche.

 

Your answer was not convincing.

 

The customer doesn't care where you put your engine or what displacement it is or what transmission you use.

 

They care, by your logic, about getting the performance numbers as the end, and the means of no consequence.

 

Porsche has been able to train their customers to pay more for the engine being in the back.

 

But really is just behaviour. It's not a decision based on merit. Not when a Z/28 is better than a Porsche 911 GT3 in performance numbers in the hands of a professional driver on a couple of race tracks.

[El Kabong]

Actually I'm basing my price estimate for the 1LE a bit high at 42. Al intends to get it in at exactly 40 large.

GM doesn't need to be aggressive with pricing in any segment the Alpha is in. They HAVE been with the CTS in particular, but when you're building gonzo numbers of a premium platform you have options as far as product pricing goes.

And don't forget that this also applies to engines. The LT1 and that TTV6 have lots of commonality with the Vortec and 3.6.

So, to answer your question: American cars are brilliant, because they provide greatness to the masses (when done right).

[surreal1272]

The question is why not?

 

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

Why not? Two words for you.

Financial suicide. You can't just jack up the price without jacking the content as well. The current prices have been conditioned to the average buyer. Just jacking up the price because you think you can will not suffice to the average buyer. We are not talking about rare commodities that attract artificial price inflation. We are talking about cars that sell well over 100K a year between them ( The Camaro and Corvette). Low volume models like the GT350R can do that. High volume can't without increasing the content.

[Suaviloquent]

I still feel they should charge more. 

 

Don't you feel they're leaving money on the table that is rightfully theirs?

[El Kabong]

I still feel they should charge more. 

 

Don't you feel they're leaving money on the table that is rightfully theirs?

Nope. They're playing the long game, if anything.

Consider: Alpha is currently putting the hurt on its largest domestic competitor, in multiple market segments, some of them quite lucrative. I doubt Ford will ever stop building Mustangs (although the Probe debacle in the 80s shows anything is possible). But I still feel that Lincoln's future is pretty shaky.

So, play it safe with the pricing now (especially in such a snobbish market as luxury sedans) and try and expand market share on multiple fronts.

[Suaviloquent]

 

The question is why not?

 

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

Why not? Two words for you.

Financial suicide. You can't just jack up the price without jacking the content as well. The current prices have been conditioned to the average buyer. Just jacking up the price because you think you can will not suffice to the average buyer. We are not talking about rare commodities that attract artificial price inflation. We are talking about cars that sell well over 100K a year between them ( The Camaro and Corvette). Low volume models like the GT350R can do that. High volume can't without increasing the content.

 

 

See, that's the trap the GM is in. Volume goals do lead to financial suicide. It already happened. It's a mistake in the long-run. It's a fact.

 

But why do high volume there? Why not restrict the supply? And the content is there, believe me...believe Al, believe Bong. Artificial price inflation? I'm talking about fair value. It seems to me all this car is missing is a luxury interior for it to be a fine halo sports car for many luxury brands.

 

The average buyer is not buying an SS 1LE or GT350 or Corvette. These guys have the money. Especially if the value is there. There are three kinds of customers. Value - which means rock bottom price, and basic features. Then there is performance - which means they will pay more if the value is there. That is the buyer.

 

The last buyer is called the luxury buyer. You cater to every whim for this buyer. And some brands which are not exotic have managed to move their performance buyers to the luxury buyer space.

 

Since this is still in this reference frame, a car that rivals many above its price class. Make it as limited as the Z28 then. Alpha is getting amortized already with the lower Camaros. It's not like they're going to convert every SS buyer to ILE. That's not what's going on.

[Suaviloquent]

 

I still feel they should charge more. 

 

Don't you feel they're leaving money on the table that is rightfully theirs?

Nope. They're playing the long game, if anything.

Consider: Alpha is currently putting the hurt on its largest domestic competitor, in multiple market segments, some of them quite lucrative. I doubt Ford will ever stop building Mustangs (although the Probe debacle in the 80s shows anything is possible). But I still feel that Lincoln's future is pretty shaky.

So, play it safe with the pricing now (especially in such a snobbish market as luxury sedans) and try and expand market share on multiple fronts.

 

 

Again, to talk about Lincoln...you know no one expects them to build a luxury sports sedan for the track, that is the last thing someone expects from Lincoln.

 

As it is the D6 platform will become every single next-generation Ford/Lincoln product expect the trucks. And it'll have RWD/AWD/FWD.

 

The Mustang brand is too powerful, and too well recognized. And again, Lincoln does not build a sports sedan, because mind you it'll be a sales dud without question even if it was heaven on Earth. The brand identity is more again in line with quiet luxury to begin with.

 

There's a lot of brands that forgo size and remain disciplined. Lincoln vehicles have great automotive margins, like GMC and Buick.

 

But Lincoln prices itself even higher. Anyways, many ways to skin a cat, volume doesn't lead always turn out like it should.

 

I do agree, the competitive pressure from GM is great, but it's about what I would expect as of this time. Anything less would be a joke.

[El Kabong]

History has proven you wrong on the Mustang heritage front, as I have shown.

GM need not resort to V-Series cars to do in current Lincolns. Regular Cadillac's will suffice. Maybe regular Buicks.

Haven't heard much about D6 lately. Five billion dollars when your luxury brand sells so low in numbers (and probably at the expense of your mainstream brand) is awfully costly. And for no immediate benefit...

Lincoln's "success" is a Roger Smith-style of success. That is very very bad.

[Suaviloquent]

The D6 is for all of Ford.

 

And Lincoln will get the use of the RWD iterations first, and Mustang as well.

 

Lincoln has probably forgone the customer who wants an AMG, V or S Line, M series car.

 

Being disciplined and knowing the brand identity as it is is actually very smart.

 

When Cadillac first got the CTS, the V line didn't even exist as it is today.

 

It's the 3rd generation of their product where its finally a mainstay. But they're even questioning if it fits with the Escalade - their most successful product.

 

Lincoln will not go for those buyers, because they are not there yet, maybe they don't think it aligns with their brand. Why are you going to harp on them for reaching the same conclusion as you - they can't possibly compete in those segments.

 

But that bunch is all boisterous and fussy. Better to secure the buyer that wants quiet luxury, and will pay for it, and extract healthy margins.

 

And I still expect Lincoln cars to be more about passenger comfort, and day to day livability, as evidenced by their choice of AWD, the best seats in the industry and a lots of power - and they can easily succeed there.

[El Kabong]

Lincoln doesn't have a clue what it's supposed to be, besides possibly "not dead." You don't blow through three design languages in three years if you have any kind of vision. Cadillac has had the same design theme for 15 years. Where's your love for them?

I DO think D6 will eventually make it to production. But it will have an awful lot of ground to make up.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

 

 

The question is why not?

 

I've always said it, if American products are superior, why are they stuck in their value for money thinking?

Why not? Two words for you.

Financial suicide. You can't just jack up the price without jacking the content as well. The current prices have been conditioned to the average buyer. Just jacking up the price because you think you can will not suffice to the average buyer. We are not talking about rare commodities that attract artificial price inflation. We are talking about cars that sell well over 100K a year between them ( The Camaro and Corvette). Low volume models like the GT350R can do that. High volume can't without increasing the content.

 

 

See, that's the trap the GM is in. Volume goals do lead to financial suicide. It already happened. It's a mistake in the long-run. It's a fact.

 

But why do high volume there? Why not restrict the supply? And the content is there, believe me...believe Al, believe Bong. Artificial price inflation? I'm talking about fair value. It seems to me all this car is missing is a luxury interior for it to be a fine halo sports car for many luxury brands.

 

The average buyer is not buying an SS 1LE or GT350 or Corvette. These guys have the money. Especially if the value is there. There are three kinds of customers. Value - which means rock bottom price, and basic features. Then there is performance - which means they will pay more if the value is there. That is the buyer.

 

The last buyer is called the luxury buyer. You cater to every whim for this buyer. And some brands which are not exotic have managed to move their performance buyers to the luxury buyer space.

 

Since this is still in this reference frame, a car that rivals many above its price class. Make it as limited as the Z28 then. Alpha is getting amortized already with the lower Camaros. It's not like they're going to convert every SS buyer to ILE. That's not what's going on.

 

The problem with your suggestion about what they should do, is that it is the exact opposite of what is making them money right no. Their profits per car have been improving every year for the last few years so here's a question for you. Why fix what isn't broken?

 

Really ccap? It's one thing to disagree with him on this but that honestly a little insulting IMO.

[smk4565]

I must say, I prefer the Mustang's interior to the Camaro's and I think the Mustang looks a little bit better too.  I have not driven either, but I imagine the Camaro is superior in chassis, engine and transmission.  The problem with the Camaro is you can't see out of it, and I have to duck my head getting in or out of it, otherwise I hit it on the roof.  If you can't get in the car or can't see out of it, what good is it?  And we aren't talking Lamborghini exotic where you expect that, Camaro is an every day car.  I think the new one is harder to see out of than the old one.

[El Kabong]

Well, it worked for the Audi TT.

[surreal1272]

I'm 5'10" and had no problem seeing out of the car. Getting in is a bit of a chore but the Mustang is for me too due to having a horrible back. That's why I have always preferred the Challenger. Getting in it is like getting in my Magnum. Easy and very comfortable to drive in.

[ccap41]

Neither car is "easy" to get in or out of in my opinion but the view from the Camaro is a deal breaker for me.. While I'm not a huge fan of the exterior I could deal with it and I guarantee if I bought one I would fall in love with the lines of it but when I sat in one the window didn't start will 6-8 inches above my shoulder. Granted, I'm not tall at only 5'8" but I'm not short either and the seat could have definitely been adjusted but there was no way it would adjust as much as I would have needed to feel comfortable looking out. I could live with the poor blind spot over time probably because any car in the class won't have great blind spot visibility but I was definitely hoping for more improvement than there was.

[Suaviloquent]

Lincoln doesn't have a clue what it's supposed to be, besides possibly "not dead." You don't blow through three design languages in three years if you have any kind of vision. Cadillac has had the same design theme for 15 years. Where's your love for them?

I DO think D6 will eventually make it to production. But it will have an awful lot of ground to make up.

 

Like I said. Lincoln is going its own way. I don't pretend to vouch for the brand, hell no. But I like the Continental quite a bit. And I've said it before many times, the MKZ looks like money, too bad it really isn't much more than was Regal is to a Malibu. I also like the CT6 way more, but not because of the way it looks or its interior which I find inappropriately styled for a large sedan. I like the CT6 for what it has underneath and the inherent value. Now the ultimate car would be hybrid of the two. Have all the excellent chassis engineering with the Lincoln Conti styling and interior, and you have a sold customer right here, right now.

 

As for 3 design languages. Actually, now their sedans have one style, the one they'll go to the future and the current split-wing in their crossovers and SUV.

 

And many people complain how most luxury brands have the same style just rehashed into a different shape. As for the split wing grille, all they really did was change the aspect ratio of height to width and make the slats horizontal instead of vertical. I don't consider it a large departure. It was the case of a small subtle changes having a huge effect.

 

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I'm of the same opinion of Drew, the Continental is a lot better than what anyone, even the biggest haters of Lincoln (myself included) expected. And the D6 will bring back a lot of prestige to the brand. 

 

Lincoln doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it, and it's disciplined enough to realize it'll probably never consider a small sedan because those things just are not growth segments AND they are highly saturated markets. Sales in China have been impressive for the all new brand launch and because they're all exported to China. There's intangible value by selling to the Chinese luxury buyer a car imported from America, especially from a heritage brand like Lincoln. They are growing faster than expectations, and that's that. You can't pretend to have better expectations when they are exceeding their targets.

 

And atleast Mark Fields did the smart thing, what little he could in his short tenure to commit to Lincoln, finally in a way that is meaningful.

 

Yeah, it's another wait. But I'm also waiting for finally the car that will allow Cadillac to break the mould. Something daring, like the Lexus LC. It hasn't arrived yet, and it appears the platform that the Lexus uses is the rival to GM's Omega as well.

 

Back to Camaro. Yeah.

 

Camaro fans will buy the Camaro and Mustang fans will buy the Mustang. That story never changes. I can't endorse the notion that the 1LE will be better in every sense, because some things like visibility are already deal breakers for some. And then the totally unique exhaust note add value to the Mustang. If the car's won't be tracked and the person is an nOOb driver, then it's quite possible a noob driver in an 1LE will not get better lap times in that a similar driver with just that much more experience in a GT350. 

 

So in the same reference frame as today, the advantages that the Mustang are palpable for every driver - better visibility, the exhaust is totally unique, never before heard in American muscle car. And I'm partial to the interior/exterior styling for the GT350. Not the regular Stangs though, I prefer the Camaro every single time otherwise else. It also has exclusivity of being a lower volume run, which helps the pricing.

 

The advantages of the Camaro for every customer, obviously price (which I like, but also rooting for GM, I want them to squeeze the living hell out of every dime they can pocket) and also the potential for better lap times. I say potential because obviously a race car driver driving cars back to back and with many laps can settle the score. On the individual basis, a lot more difficult. It's a function of time and effort expended to get better with each car, and both have absurd supercar like limits, so there's so much to learn with either.

 

I think the Mustang is charging a very fair price for what you get. I think the Camaro is charging an even fairer price. But the Mustang also has the purist values in check. They don't offer an automatic (and of course some will just say they don't have a competitive RWD transmission yet, so they're stuck. I would agree, but the way they're selling it, the lay person, or just the true enthusiast "insert Leno here" would see it as an even more special treatment).

 

I think while they both compete well together, inevitably there's going to be the mention of cars like the BMW M2, which btw starts at $52,000. Yeah. And you don't even get a V8. So... I think both American coupes are poised to take on their foreign rivals. Is the M2 overpriced? Well, it's going to sell every one they make, so the price they charge, well, you get that roundel on the hood that has intrinsic value, which I have always been saying in support of GM, that their cars really do have.

 

For my own money... I wouldn't even go as far as the 1LE. The 2SS is half the price of the Z28 for 95% of the performance. Any more spending is largely unnecessary.

 

But then if I wanted the special hopped up car, I'd go for the GT350, especially because I'd never go on the track, and I secretly want the Corvette more than both - but an excuse to get out of one would actually be the GT350, just because of the sound alone. Yeah, I just said I'd get a car based on sound, which of course anyone can make the hand wavy gesture "but you save $$$ by getting this car that on a track that you'll never go on will do better"

 

But I'm not saying for those reasons people will pick the Mustang. Those are my reasons. They might overlap with someone else, they might not.

 

I think the Camaro is great, but we've seen this style of American cars really getting the performance right since the S197 Mustang and the Boss till now, and I think it's going to continue.

[Stew]

 

So, what I would say here is: if the GT350 needs to be completely different forward of the A-pillar (engine, suspension, and all), and on a brand-new chassis no less...

Why not design it that way across the board and keep it from becoming nearly 60 grand? Because that's the strategy GM went with on the Camaro, and now they're talking up the possibility of a forty-grand Camaro that will do the same thing as that Shelby!

We can discuss this eight ways till Sunday. But the reality is that GM is just much better at leveraging its assets in this segment than Ford, because Ford has far fewer assets to leverage for RWD applications anymore. Even Mopar has better RWD options than Ford.

 

C'MON EL K...

 

You went from dissing the Ford Mustang GT350 and how to fix it to straight trolling Ford and their lack of RWD platforms...

You know...Wings is no longer posting here, there is no Ford PR fluff master to "put into place"...

 

MOPAR...you did mention the Giulia...HA! the Giulia is POSTPONED...

 

But...lets talk about MOPAR...

With an "old" platform, MOPAR still manages to keep the Challenger cool and hip. Even with Euro badge snobs, this car is revered...

 

Ford...albeit not in the point in time I was looking at the GT350 at the Montreal auto show...the GT350 EL K...lets get that clear...

Ford has made the GT350 into a lustful machine...Euro badge snobs look at it and wished their Euro trashed car was more like it...Jay Leno's words, not mine...and lets be honest...his circle of car guy friends sure makes yours and my car guy friends look like pansies...

 

Lets be honest about the Camaro...

Its a car with a CORVETTE engine under the hood.

Yeah...you think that is a good marketing angle?

Id rather just buy a Corvette and I could stop pretending owning a Corvette by driving a Camaro...

And I aint even gonna talk about the bag over the head looks its got...

 

You see EL K...I could troll Chevy just as good you try to troll Ford...

 

Now...you know I dont want to do that.

 

Just to correct one thing, they start building the Guilla next month......

[FordCosworth]

 

 

So, what I would say here is: if the GT350 needs to be completely different forward of the A-pillar (engine, suspension, and all), and on a brand-new chassis no less...

Why not design it that way across the board and keep it from becoming nearly 60 grand? Because that's the strategy GM went with on the Camaro, and now they're talking up the possibility of a forty-grand Camaro that will do the same thing as that Shelby!

We can discuss this eight ways till Sunday. But the reality is that GM is just much better at leveraging its assets in this segment than Ford, because Ford has far fewer assets to leverage for RWD applications anymore. Even Mopar has better RWD options than Ford.

 

C'MON EL K...

 

You went from dissing the Ford Mustang GT350 and how to fix it to straight trolling Ford and their lack of RWD platforms...

You know...Wings is no longer posting here, there is no Ford PR fluff master to "put into place"...

 

MOPAR...you did mention the Giulia...HA! the Giulia is POSTPONED...

 

But...lets talk about MOPAR...

With an "old" platform, MOPAR still manages to keep the Challenger cool and hip. Even with Euro badge snobs, this car is revered...

 

Ford...albeit not in the point in time I was looking at the GT350 at the Montreal auto show...the GT350 EL K...lets get that clear...

Ford has made the GT350 into a lustful machine...Euro badge snobs look at it and wished their Euro trashed car was more like it...Jay Leno's words, not mine...and lets be honest...his circle of car guy friends sure makes yours and my car guy friends look like pansies...

 

Lets be honest about the Camaro...

Its a car with a CORVETTE engine under the hood.

Yeah...you think that is a good marketing angle?

Id rather just buy a Corvette and I could stop pretending owning a Corvette by driving a Camaro...

And I aint even gonna talk about the bag over the head looks its got...

 

You see EL K...I could troll Chevy just as good you try to troll Ford...

 

Now...you know I dont want to do that.

 

Just to correct one thing, they start building the Guilla next month......

 

 

 

With production delayed for several months back in November and reports of failed crash tests, I'll believe it when it actually happens.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

So, what I would say here is: if the GT350 needs to be completely different forward of the A-pillar (engine, suspension, and all), and on a brand-new chassis no less...

Why not design it that way across the board and keep it from becoming nearly 60 grand? Because that's the strategy GM went with on the Camaro, and now they're talking up the possibility of a forty-grand Camaro that will do the same thing as that Shelby!

We can discuss this eight ways till Sunday. But the reality is that GM is just much better at leveraging its assets in this segment than Ford, because Ford has far fewer assets to leverage for RWD applications anymore. Even Mopar has better RWD options than Ford.

 

C'MON EL K...

 

You went from dissing the Ford Mustang GT350 and how to fix it to straight trolling Ford and their lack of RWD platforms...

You know...Wings is no longer posting here, there is no Ford PR fluff master to "put into place"...

 

MOPAR...you did mention the Giulia...HA! the Giulia is POSTPONED...

 

But...lets talk about MOPAR...

With an "old" platform, MOPAR still manages to keep the Challenger cool and hip. Even with Euro badge snobs, this car is revered...

 

Ford...albeit not in the point in time I was looking at the GT350 at the Montreal auto show...the GT350 EL K...lets get that clear...

Ford has made the GT350 into a lustful machine...Euro badge snobs look at it and wished their Euro trashed car was more like it...Jay Leno's words, not mine...and lets be honest...his circle of car guy friends sure makes yours and my car guy friends look like pansies...

 

Lets be honest about the Camaro...

Its a car with a CORVETTE engine under the hood.

Yeah...you think that is a good marketing angle?

Id rather just buy a Corvette and I could stop pretending owning a Corvette by driving a Camaro...

And I aint even gonna talk about the bag over the head looks its got...

 

You see EL K...I could troll Chevy just as good you try to troll Ford...

 

Now...you know I dont want to do that.

 

Just to correct one thing, they start building the Guilla next month......

 

 

 

With production delayed for several months back in November and reports of failed crash tests, I'll believe it when it actually happens.

 

Yeah, kind of like Ford and the Bronco. Rumors rumors rumors for years.. Apparently they'll make one but I'll believe it when I see it, or at least a practical concept car.

[FordCosworth]

^^^^^

Exactly. Add the Ranger to that too.

Edited February 22, 2016 by FordCosworth

[ccap41]

^^^^^

Exactly. Add the Ranger to that too.

Yep. I mean it's no secret the Giulia IS being built it's just a matter of who/what/when/where. The Bronco and Ranger are more mysterious than that still. 

 

Anyway, 1LE/GT350, right? 

[surreal1272]

I must say, I prefer the Mustang's interior to the Camaro's and I think the Mustang looks a little bit better too.  I have not driven either, but I imagine the Camaro is superior in chassis, engine and transmission.  The problem with the Camaro is you can't see out of it, and I have to duck my head getting in or out of it, otherwise I hit it on the roof.  If you can't get in the car or can't see out of it, what good is it?  And we aren't talking Lamborghini exotic where you expect that, Camaro is an every day car.  I think the new one is harder to see out of than the old one.

I think you are wrong. Of course, I've actually sat in the old and the new Camaro. It is not worse in any way.