1LE Designed To Beat GT350: Al Oppenheiser

[El Kabong]

LOL@saying companies don't want the business of people like me.

People like me RUN this business. Or any business.

It's just Darwinism with tires, man.

You think that Lexus didn't scare the Germans with my mindset back in the day? You think Porsche and Ferrari exist in their current state because of laisssez-faire business?

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

Like I said, part of targeting a segment is firing the customers you don't want.

 

Ford doesn't want the EL Ks of their world to buy their Shelbys. Nor does Porsche. Nor does AMG or M.

 

Those kind of customers demand a lot and don't want to pay a lot. Those customers, YOU want to fire them because they go to your competition and either drive them out of business if they're the same size or at-least prevent the other guy by moving upmarket.

 

Now GM isn't in that situation, and the economics are different.

 

But still. The point remains. You pick who you want. Some guy wants incredible looks and sound. Some guy wants the numbers - and is okay with that even if the new styling is a bit meh and the V8 is like any other V8 the company has made before, great, but not bespoke, and a familiar sound at that.

 

But now the previous buyer of the Corvette might be even a little perturbed how the runt Camaro is getting any attention, because it's like the Corvette was robbed of everything that made it great to sell the same in a car at a lower price point.

 

I'm not saying that the Camaro should purposely tank. Obviously the new Corvette was atleast $30,000 better than the last even, even the base stingray.

 

I would reckon (very arbitrary) that the SS 1LE should be between $55 to 60k. And the Corvette Stingray should just have Z51 folded in (I think it already is) and priced from $85,000. The value is there. We all agree on that. 

 

But GM for volume reasons did not go there. Look, wearing out your machinery and tooling is a thing as well. Always going for volume goals is not the pinnacle of success. It can deliver great product at a great price. But I think GM wants great returns even more.

I've left the intangibles alone because as someone who has owned both a Corvette and a Camaro I already know they exist. I also know that they are very different animals, as did Car and Driver. They didn't call their "comparo" Asymmetrical Warfare for nothing.

They did Ford a solid by giving the Shelby a comparo win before its real conpetition arrived.

 

A win is a win, and that's something from your playbook. I'd hunt to find where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure my jarred memory, Maserati edition is better than even yours.

Like I said: C/D gave the Ford the win. Because they know it's now or never. And I'm ok with that. Just like I was ok with R&T admitting that they may have made a mistake giving the Shelby it's Driver's Car award.

Something better, this way comes.

[Suaviloquent]

Lexus wasn't an established brand AT ALL... they had to build superior products.

 

and Porsche and Ferrari, when becoming global began their climb into glory and pricing dominance around the same time.

 

Weak examples, coming from you bro.

 

Again.... I will turn a blind cheek, because we are still selling the same message.

 

Except the real analogy is that if Lexus did build superior products to Germans, and if they were otherwise perceived as true equals, then of course I would also want Lexus to price itself higher.

 

And the Ferrari example? Well - I think it bears to it that Ferrari sells about 7000 vehicles a year and is probably the highest valued brand in the automotive world.

 

So volume, again, has no relation to brand equity?

 

Are you sure, we're not in agreement fully? Because I think we are, but your understanding of the brand is latent. You'll get it. It'll come to you.

 

Like I said, part of targeting a segment is firing the customers you don't want.
 
Ford doesn't want the EL Ks of their world to buy their Shelbys. Nor does Porsche. Nor does AMG or M.
 
Those kind of customers demand a lot and don't want to pay a lot. Those customers, YOU want to fire them because they go to your competition and either drive them out of business if they're the same size or at-least prevent the other guy by moving upmarket.
 
Now GM isn't in that situation, and the economics are different.
 
But still. The point remains. You pick who you want. Some guy wants incredible looks and sound. Some guy wants the numbers - and is okay with that even if the new styling is a bit meh and the V8 is like any other V8 the company has made before, great, but not bespoke, and a familiar sound at that.
 
But now the previous buyer of the Corvette might be even a little perturbed how the runt Camaro is getting any attention, because it's like the Corvette was robbed of everything that made it great to sell the same in a car at a lower price point.
 
I'm not saying that the Camaro should purposely tank. Obviously the new Corvette was atleast $30,000 better than the last even, even the base stingray.
 
I would reckon (very arbitrary) that the SS 1LE should be between $55 to 60k. And the Corvette Stingray should just have Z51 folded in (I think it already is) and priced from $85,000. The value is there. We all agree on that. 
 
But GM for volume reasons did not go there. Look, wearing out your machinery and tooling is a thing as well. Always going for volume goals is not the pinnacle of success. It can deliver great product at a great price. But I think GM wants great returns even more.

I've left the intangibles alone because as someone who has owned both a Corvette and a Camaro I already know they exist. I also know that they are very different animals, as did Car and Driver. They didn't call their "comparo" Asymmetrical Warfare for nothing.
They did Ford a solid by giving the Shelby a comparo win before its real conpetition arrived.

 
A win is a win, and that's something from your playbook. I'd hunt to find where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure my jarred memory, Maserati edition is better than even yours.

Like I said: C/D gave the Ford the win. Because they know it's now or never. And I'm ok with that. Just like I was ok with R&T admitting that they may have made a mistake giving the Shelby it's Driver's Car award.

Something better, this way comes.

 

 

Okay here's something really objective. Was Camaro even available at the time of the test?

 

Nope. So die if you do die if you don't, you still die - as in your magazine fails if it fails to hold the test and sell magazines based on the result.

[ccap41]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500.

The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past.

[surreal1272]

Wings had FordCosworth...

You have Surreal...

The irony is just too much for me to handle....

Ill just laugh it off...

There's no irony.

You're just avoiding the reality of the situation. Hell, they got this exact thread cooking over in FIN and they're admitting that the changes Ford's making to the Shelby options list are a reaction to the 1LE's pricing.

I'm sorry if these things sting you.

But that's kinda what Bumblebees do.

There is something to be said about rent free living. When you leave the conversation hours ago, yet someone can't stop dropping your name, you know the living is good. What's funny is to call us two "like Wings and Cosworth". I have grilled you on Tesla left and right which is something the Ford wonder twins could never and did not ever do. I don't need to agree with anyone here and I could give two $h!s if someone has my back or not. You know that for a fact.

[surreal1272]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500.

The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past.

If Shelby had all that recognition, then it would sell above list price. It would not just be predicated on the used market value. Just saying.

[oldshurst442]

@ EL K

 

Dude...you simply cannot be that dumb...

 

Honestly...

 

You talk about automotive Darwinism...yet in 2002...the Camaro DIED...The Trans Am is no longer...

 

You know...the Mustang...it nearly died...twice. But guess what?

 

Its LINEAGE has NOT BEEN CUT OFF!!!

 

And THIS coming from a guy with a SCREAMING CHICKEN as his avatar!

 

 

You really look stupid here dude!

Just some friendly advice, Id cut it as fast as I could if I were you...because your reputation in this thread...has shrunk BIG TIME!

[ccap41]

 

 

 

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500.

The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past.

If Shelby had all that recognition, then it would sell above list price. It would not just be predicated on the used market value. Just saying.

 

If it is priced correctly then it wouldn't, right? Or are you saying it doesn't matter what the list price is people will pay above it? And according to Bong, it is priced too high, or in this case, in line or where Shelbys "should" be.

 

I guess what do you mean by " It would not just be predicated on the used market value." because that's where collector cars are also. Yes, used, but they have a solid demand still. 

 

Personally, I love the ZL1. It's right up my ally. Big V8, supercharged, 580hp, magnet shocks for a softer AND tighter suspension when I want them. It seems like the best GT of the two..that either of them had made up until now. Now the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are just better overall cars but I'd still take a ZL1 over a GT or SS in a heartbeat. To me, it was a "bruiser". It had brawn. 

 

Okay that went a little off topic.. oh well. 

 

On another off-topic bit.. check out how insane this dealer is. Mind you, this is just a Mustang GT. 

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=62249&endYear=2017&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=3251723&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2013&firstRecord=0&searchRadius=100&showcaseListingId=387682870&mmt=%5BFORD%5BMUST%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=413855461&Log=0

$100k. lol

 

Edit:

So I realize this is not scientific in ANY real way but when I sifted through AutoTrader for 13+ GT500s and ZL1 the GT500s tend to be roughly 5-7k more for about the same mileage. I tried to be at least somehwhat "accurate". Both between 3-15k miles and the GT500s were between 47k-57k(50-55 was the norm) and the ZL1s were more in the 40-50k range(they tended to have ~3-5k more miles as well). 

 

But for 45k I'd rather have a ZL1 than an SS 1LE. 

 

Actually, what would you guys rather have for 45k? It's kind of an awkward price for these cars. Can't get a GT350 or Z/28, could work really hard to find a GT500, or loaded up SS or GTs? Or throw the Challenger in there as well. No Hellcat but you could probably still find SRTs for that price. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500.

The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past.

If Shelby had all that recognition, then it would sell above list price. It would not just be predicated on the used market value. Just saying.

If it is priced correctly then it wouldn't, right? Or are you saying it doesn't matter what the list price is people will pay above it? And according to Bong, it is priced too high, or in this case, in line or where Shelbys "should" be.

 

I guess what do you mean by " It would not just be predicated on the used market value." because that's where collector cars are also. Yes, used, but they have a solid demand still. 

 

Personally, I love the ZL1. It's right up my ally. Big V8, supercharged, 580hp, magnet shocks for a softer AND tighter suspension when I want them. It seems like the best GT of the two..that either of them had made up until now. Now the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are just better overall cars but I'd still take a ZL1 over a GT or SS in a heartbeat. To me, it was a "bruiser". It had brawn. 

 

Okay that went a little off topic.. oh well. 

 

On another off-topic bit.. check out how insane this dealer is. Mind you, this is just a Mustang GT. 

][]]&listingId=413855461&Log=0]http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=62249&endYear=2017&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=3251723&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2013&firstRecord=0&searchRadius=100&showcaseListingId=387682870&mmt=[FORD[MUST[]][]]&listingId=413855461&Log=0

$100k. lol

 

Edit:

So I realize this is not scientific in ANY real way but when I sifted through AutoTrader for 13+ GT500s and ZL1 the GT500s tend to be roughly 5-7k more for about the same mileage. I tried to be at least somehwhat "accurate". Both between 3-15k miles and the GT500s were between 47k-57k(50-55 was the norm) and the ZL1s were more in the 40-50k range(they tended to have ~3-5k more miles as well). 

 

But for 45k I'd rather have a ZL1 than an SS 1LE. 

 

Actually, what would you guys rather have for 45k? It's kind of an awkward price for these cars. Can't get a GT350 or Z/28, could work really hard to find a GT500, or loaded up SS or GTs? Or throw the Challenger in there as well. No Hellcat but you could probably still find SRTs for that price. 

No. What I am saying is that if the Shelby name was so special, it would go for more than list, like it has in the past. The fact that you don't see that with this version is very telling to me. As far as being overpriced, I will hold judgement until there has actually been a side by side comparison of it and the Camaro, be it the 1LE or something else.

[ccap41]

So what you're saying is, theoretically, even if the GT350 was priced at 100k it "should" sell for even more if the Shelby name carried any weight? What if they already priced it accordingly though? Why would it sell over sticker if the sticker is already accurate to the market(which would incorporate the name)? 

[surreal1272]

So what you're saying is, theoretically, even if the GT350 was priced at 100k it "should" sell for even more if the Shelby name carried any weight? What if they already priced it accordingly though? Why would it sell over sticker if the sticker is already accurate to the market(which would incorporate the name)? 

You are not following me at all and your number example is way extreme. Fact is that there were several commenters here when the GT350 and 350R were announced. who crowed endlessly about the Shelby name being more valuable and that it would sell far above list because of demand for the NAME. It did not happen, by your own admission. That is all I am saying. No need to read any further into that.

[ccap41]

And I was never one of those people who gawked over the Shelby name bringing prices above list so I'm not really sure what the other posters have anything to do with this..? 

 

Also, how do either of us know what they are or are not selling for? I only know one example of a sale price and that's because of a good friend works at a stealership. I mean there are plenty examples of them LISTED above MSPR but we don't know what the out-the-door price is on them. Unless you have a source saying they are not selling above list then neither of us actually know what new owners are paying. I know I have no clue other than the one example and he's paying to have his shipped from (basically)STL to New Hampshire. He paid list but was obviously willing to pay extra for the car if he's sending his own truck and trailer for it.

[surreal1272]

And I was never one of those people who gawked over the Shelby name bringing prices above list so I'm not really sure what the other posters have anything to do with this..? 

 

Also, how do either of us know what they are or are not selling for? I only know one example of a sale price and that's because of a good friend works at a stealership. I mean there are plenty examples of them LISTED above MSPR but we don't know what the out-the-door price is on them. Unless you have a source saying they are not selling above list then neither of us actually know what new owners are paying. I know I have no clue other than the one example and he's paying to have his shipped from (basically)STL to New Hampshire. He paid list but was obviously willing to pay extra for the car if he's sending his own truck and trailer for it.

Never, not once, said that you did but the overall tone and words from the Ford camp was exactly what I said. I really could give a crap about the price one way or the other. All cars are overpriced. I'm just saying that the Shelby name isn't as valuable as it used to be. 

 

And are you not the one who said, on this thread, that you knew of a Shelby selling for exactly list price?

Edited February 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

I am thoroughly enjoying the outrage. Really. I am.

The Shelby name carried weight when the man was:

-alive, and

-directly involved with the stuff bearing his name, if it

-took care of business in a righteous way.

By these criteria the original 350GT, Cobras, and whatnot from back in the day became legends. But let's be honest: nobody sheds many tears for Shelby K-cars or rebadged SVT Mustangs. These are not real Shelbys (although the Omni GLHS may yet prove an exception).

The only reason the current Shelby is called that is because Ford Marketing and PR knows it has more cachet than an SVT badge. Ford typically seems to be more confident in hawking brands and names that didn't originate in-house than they do their own stuff.

But it hasn't been working too well for them as of late. And if that price gap doesn't come down, like, a LOT, that trend will not change with this car.

Suave: nobody buys pony cars because they can command a price premium in and of themselves. Their objective performance has been, and will continue to be, matched by a strong emphasis on objective value. So no: my example of Lexus (and Acura with the first NSX for that matter) shaking things up with heir appeal to objective value is a valid one. Indeed, one of the cornerstones of the ponycar segment is the image of the working-class hero, the gutsy underdog, yadda yadda yadda. The fact that that image is increasingly belied by the true greatness of what lies beneath is almost besides the point.

[ccap41]

 

And I was never one of those people who gawked over the Shelby name bringing prices above list so I'm not really sure what the other posters have anything to do with this..? 

 

Also, how do either of us know what they are or are not selling for? I only know one example of a sale price and that's because of a good friend works at a stealership. I mean there are plenty examples of them LISTED above MSPR but we don't know what the out-the-door price is on them. Unless you have a source saying they are not selling above list then neither of us actually know what new owners are paying. I know I have no clue other than the one example and he's paying to have his shipped from (basically)STL to New Hampshire. He paid list but was obviously willing to pay extra for the car if he's sending his own truck and trailer for it.

Never, not once, said that you did but the overall tone and words from the Ford camp was exactly what I said. I really could give a crap about the price one way or the other. All cars are overpriced. I'm just saying that the Shelby name isn't as valuable as it used to be. 

 

And are you not the one who said, on this thread, that you knew of a Shelby selling for exactly list price?

 

Yes, I am the one who gave the ONLY example of an actual Shelby's price being sold. That was my point. We don't have examples of ones selling over or under or anything else. So to say, "...it would sell far above list because of demand for the NAME. It did not happen" is not necessarily true because out of all of the Shelbys that have been sold in the last couple of months we have one lone example of it selling at list price and zero selling at any other mark up or mark downs. We just don't know. 

 

Yes, they did insinuate or straight up say that but I don't know why you're telling me what other people have said.. that means nothing to this conversation unless you were either grouping me in with them or insinuating I said it as well. 

 

Absolutely correct, 99% of cars on the market are over priced. I'll give the sub 15k cars a break.. they probably aren't over priced.. but that's about it in my books. And this is why it sucks that cars are a hobby of mine(ours). If I could, I'd drive a different vehicle every 6 months and love it. I just love driving different things and with the price of cars that isn't practical in any way. 

 

What's your opinion on the 45k car? I'm genuinely curious because that is kind of an awkward price point for these cars. 

[ccap41]

I am thoroughly enjoying the outrage. Really. I am.

The Shelby name carried weight when the man was:

-alive, and

-directly involved with the stuff bearing his name, if it

-took care of business in a righteous way.

By these criteria the original 350GT, Cobras, and whatnot from back in the day became legends. But let's be honest: nobody sheds many tears for Shelby K-cars or rebadged SVT Mustangs. These are not real Shelbys (although the Omni GLHS may yet prove an exception).

The only reason the current Shelby is called that is because Ford Marketing and PR knows it has more cachet than an SVT badge. Ford typically seems to be more confident in hawking brands and names that didn't originate in-house than they do their own stuff.

But it hasn't been working too well for them as of late. And if that price gap doesn't come down, like, a LOT, that trend will not change with this car.

Suave: nobody buys pony cars because they can command a price premium in and of themselves. Their objective performance has been, and will continue to be, matched by a strong emphasis on objective value. So no: my example of Lexus (and Acura with the first NSX for that matter) shaking things up with heir appeal to objective value is a valid one. Indeed, one of the cornerstones of the ponycar segment is the image of the working-class hero, the gutsy underdog, yadda yadda yadda. The fact that that image is increasingly belied by the true greatness of what lies beneath is almost besides the point.

Ya know what's ironic? 

 

That is something almost EXACTLY like Wings would say. 

 

Shelby was a part of the 13+ GT500s. This is the first that I'm aware of that he is not a part of, for obvious reasons. 

 

I don't think Ford, or anybody else, is too worried what you think about the price of their GT350/R. The lone example I have.. it sat on the showroom for 2 days before being sold. I have a feeling Ford will be quite satisfied with that turnaround. 

[El Kabong]

Nonsense.

If Ford wasn't nervous about the Shelby's chances against the 1LE then my link to their attempts to make optional equipment standard wouldn't exist. You only do that when you want to drive down asking prices by forced economics of scale.

[El Kabong]

Cute emoji tho.

And no, I assure you that the only thing Shelby added to the GT500 was his badges.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

 

 

And I was never one of those people who gawked over the Shelby name bringing prices above list so I'm not really sure what the other posters have anything to do with this..? 

 

Also, how do either of us know what they are or are not selling for? I only know one example of a sale price and that's because of a good friend works at a stealership. I mean there are plenty examples of them LISTED above MSPR but we don't know what the out-the-door price is on them. Unless you have a source saying they are not selling above list then neither of us actually know what new owners are paying. I know I have no clue other than the one example and he's paying to have his shipped from (basically)STL to New Hampshire. He paid list but was obviously willing to pay extra for the car if he's sending his own truck and trailer for it.

Never, not once, said that you did but the overall tone and words from the Ford camp was exactly what I said. I really could give a crap about the price one way or the other. All cars are overpriced. I'm just saying that the Shelby name isn't as valuable as it used to be. 

 

And are you not the one who said, on this thread, that you knew of a Shelby selling for exactly list price?

 

Yes, I am the one who gave the ONLY example of an actual Shelby's price being sold. That was my point. We don't have examples of ones selling over or under or anything else. So to say, "...it would sell far above list because of demand for the NAME. It did not happen" is not necessarily true because out of all of the Shelbys that have been sold in the last couple of months we have one lone example of it selling at list price and zero selling at any other mark up or mark downs. We just don't know. 

 

Yes, they did insinuate or straight up say that but I don't know why you're telling me what other people have said.. that means nothing to this conversation unless you were either grouping me in with them or insinuating I said it as well. 

 

Absolutely correct, 99% of cars on the market are over priced. I'll give the sub 15k cars a break.. they probably aren't over priced.. but that's about it in my books. And this is why it sucks that cars are a hobby of mine(ours). If I could, I'd drive a different vehicle every 6 months and love it. I just love driving different things and with the price of cars that isn't practical in any way. 

 

What's your opinion on the 45k car? I'm genuinely curious because that is kind of an awkward price point for these cars. 

 

Never mind ccap because you seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand the context of what I have said here.

 

Moving on.

[surreal1272]

 

I am thoroughly enjoying the outrage. Really. I am.

The Shelby name carried weight when the man was:

-alive, and

-directly involved with the stuff bearing his name, if it

-took care of business in a righteous way.

By these criteria the original 350GT, Cobras, and whatnot from back in the day became legends. But let's be honest: nobody sheds many tears for Shelby K-cars or rebadged SVT Mustangs. These are not real Shelbys (although the Omni GLHS may yet prove an exception).

The only reason the current Shelby is called that is because Ford Marketing and PR knows it has more cachet than an SVT badge. Ford typically seems to be more confident in hawking brands and names that didn't originate in-house than they do their own stuff.

But it hasn't been working too well for them as of late. And if that price gap doesn't come down, like, a LOT, that trend will not change with this car.

Suave: nobody buys pony cars because they can command a price premium in and of themselves. Their objective performance has been, and will continue to be, matched by a strong emphasis on objective value. So no: my example of Lexus (and Acura with the first NSX for that matter) shaking things up with heir appeal to objective value is a valid one. Indeed, one of the cornerstones of the ponycar segment is the image of the working-class hero, the gutsy underdog, yadda yadda yadda. The fact that that image is increasingly belied by the true greatness of what lies beneath is almost besides the point.

Ya know what's ironic? 

 

That is something almost EXACTLY like Wings would say. 

 

Shelby was a part of the 13+ GT500s. This is the first that I'm aware of that he is not a part of, for obvious reasons. 

 

I don't think Ford, or anybody else, is too worried what you think about the price of their GT350/R. The lone example I have.. it sat on the showroom for 2 days before being sold. I have a feeling Ford will be quite satisfied with that turnaround. 

 

Sorry but like Bong pointed out, the fact that Ford is now offering upgrades that were previously unavailable on the GT350, is at least an indication that Ford is trying to increase the value of it with the 1LE on it's way. It's a reactionary move by Ford because if they really felt the car was worth that (vs. the competition mind you, not in general), they would not have to offer that. I am not saying that his 100% the case but the evidence is certainly there to support such an assertion. Just something to consider before thinking he is just trolling to troll like the quitter did.

[El Kabong]

I'm iust posting facts. Links, vids, etc.

If you don't like that, then don't get mad at the messenger. The messenger could not possibly care less.

Get mad at the brand you want to win. Because they're the ones at fault.

[ccap41]

Are you that thick headed?   C'mon man. Every automotive company ever(alright, I'll exclude the exotics) makes changes year over year(or two) to their packages that include more and more standard features. 

 

For example, backup cameras, lcd radio displays, power seats... Those are on base trims. As you go up the ladder the features become pricier.  Cars never used to have massaging seats and ya know what? They come standard on certain trims of certain cars now as opposed to paying extra for them. 

 

So when the Silverado and Sierra get massaging seats is it because they are nervous of the F150(Platinum)? By your logic, yes, they will be nervous. See, stupid statement. 

What option that was not available on the GT350 is now available on it for 2017? 

[ccap41]

 

 

I am thoroughly enjoying the outrage. Really. I am.

The Shelby name carried weight when the man was:

-alive, and

-directly involved with the stuff bearing his name, if it

-took care of business in a righteous way.

By these criteria the original 350GT, Cobras, and whatnot from back in the day became legends. But let's be honest: nobody sheds many tears for Shelby K-cars or rebadged SVT Mustangs. These are not real Shelbys (although the Omni GLHS may yet prove an exception).

The only reason the current Shelby is called that is because Ford Marketing and PR knows it has more cachet than an SVT badge. Ford typically seems to be more confident in hawking brands and names that didn't originate in-house than they do their own stuff.

But it hasn't been working too well for them as of late. And if that price gap doesn't come down, like, a LOT, that trend will not change with this car.

Suave: nobody buys pony cars because they can command a price premium in and of themselves. Their objective performance has been, and will continue to be, matched by a strong emphasis on objective value. So no: my example of Lexus (and Acura with the first NSX for that matter) shaking things up with heir appeal to objective value is a valid one. Indeed, one of the cornerstones of the ponycar segment is the image of the working-class hero, the gutsy underdog, yadda yadda yadda. The fact that that image is increasingly belied by the true greatness of what lies beneath is almost besides the point.

Ya know what's ironic? 

 

That is something almost EXACTLY like Wings would say. 

 

Shelby was a part of the 13+ GT500s. This is the first that I'm aware of that he is not a part of, for obvious reasons. 

 

I don't think Ford, or anybody else, is too worried what you think about the price of their GT350/R. The lone example I have.. it sat on the showroom for 2 days before being sold. I have a feeling Ford will be quite satisfied with that turnaround. 

 

Sorry but like Bong pointed out, the fact that Ford is now offering upgrades that were previously unavailable on the GT350, is at least an indication that Ford is trying to increase the value of it with the 1LE on it's way. It's a reactionary move by Ford because if they really felt the car was worth that (vs. the competition mind you, not in general), they would not have to offer that. I am not saying that his 100% the case but the evidence is certainly there to support such an assertion. Just something to consider before thinking he is just trolling to troll like the quitter did.

 

Oh I understand your viewpoint but he is most certainly trolling to troll. Exactly like Wings would.. Same blatant statements talking up future stuff as if it is here now and the bestest ever to have ever been created on the face of the earth. 

[ccap41]

I'm iust posting facts. Links, vids, etc.

If you don't like that, then don't get mad at the messenger. The messenger could not possibly care less.

Get mad at the brand you want to win. Because they're the ones at fault.

This is the $h! that annoys the hell out of people and why you've been referred to as a..."troll". The term gets thrown around quite a bit, well it used to when Wings was around. It's good to see his thrown didn't get too cold before somebody hopped into it. Keep it nice and warm while you're there, I know you will.  

 

 go on, fluff away.. 

 

 

[Suaviloquent]

Erhhhh.....

[El Kabong]

What nonsense.

The SS already has the edge on the Shelby in some performance measurements as is. The future, as they say, is now. The 1LE will merely be the icing on the cake.

Because lost among all the name-calling and accusations is this one thing, left unanswered:

Would you honestly pay 57 thousand dollars for a track star Mustang that cannot outrun a 42 thousand track star Camaro?

But that's ok, because we already know that the answer to that is: no.

No, you would not.

So suck it up, deal with it, and get on with life. Because these are the facts. And the facts ain't changing.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

No, I would not get the Camaro SS ILE. 

 

I would get the 2SS.

 

Though honestly, I like the sound of the V8, and I like the Mustang's looks more.

 

Why do people pay more for Porsches than Corvettes?

 

For the same reasons now people would buy the GT350 - it has the intangibles man. You wouldn't understand. But the thing is you don't have to. And for the last time disparaging remarks are not befitting the Mustang because it also beat the best track cars money can buy.

 

Yay, the Camaro gives better track times in the hands of the most capable drivers, but you can't even live with it on a daily basis - and I don't think it is better for a track user. It is capable of better times. But is it better for the driver?

 

That's the issue. And there no one clear solution. Too bad GM will sell the lap times instead of why the car is better for the driver. And that is where your argument fails.

 

And for a person who doesn't live on the track, the Mustang is just better. You can live with it, it's exhaust is one in a milion, and I quite honestly don't understand your persistence when you certainly don't put up this kind of tirade against other competitors.

[El Kabong]

Erhhhh.....

Ya, that was just all KINDS of wrong, right there

No, I would not get the Camaro SS ILE. 

 

I would get the 2SS.

 

Though honestly, I like the sound of the V8, and I like the Mustang's looks more.

 

Why do people pay more for Porsches than Corvettes?

 

For the same reasons now people would buy the GT350 - it has the intangibles man. You wouldn't understand. But the thing is you don't have to. And for the last time disparaging remarks are not befitting the Mustang because it also beat the best track cars money can buy.

 

Yay, the Camaro gives better track times in the hands of the most capable drivers, but you can't even live with it on a daily basis - and I don't think it is better for a track user. It is capable of better times. But is it better for the driver?

 

That's the issue. And there no one clear solution. Too bad GM will sell the lap times instead of why the car is better for the driver. And that is where your argument fails.

 

And for a person who doesn't live on the track, the Mustang is just better. You can live with it, it's exhaust is one in a milion, and I quite honestly don't understand your persistence when you certainly don't put up this kind of tirade against other competitors.

There's nothing intangible about why people buy Corvettes over Porsches and vice versa. It's VERY tangible.

Some folks like their engines in front of them, some folks like their engines behind them.

[Suaviloquent]

Anyways, I don't see Porsche Cayman buyers lining up for the Camaro or M2 or M4 buyers lining up for the Camaro any time soon.

 

So your argument about value pricing is going to continue fall on itself every time. Every single time.

[El Kabong]

Anyways, I don't see Porsche Cayman buyers lining up for the Camaro or M2 or M4 buyers lining up for the Camaro any time soon.

 

So your argument about value pricing is going to continue fall on itself every time. Every single time.

Totally missed the point.

If the Camaro can gain conquest sales out of segment, then good. But the segment itself remains about bang for the buck. There is no aristocracy, despite what the various badges and stripe packages may imply.

If your car can't deliver the goods for X amount of dollars it's not gonna do well. And the 1LE is about to finish tipping the apple cart.

[Suaviloquent]

Yeah, but that would be a problem for the GT350 if is was also pursuing volume goals. But it isn't. 

 

The segment is about bang for buck, but only to a point. Anyways, I'm done with this adversarial style posting in this thread.

 

And where did you get that notion? You know at one point people felt that the Z/28 for $75,000 was underpriced in reality. So you're saying the whole game for GM is to drive its margins into the ground?

 

Look, selling at cost isn't sustainable, and again, you know product guys competent they are, are clueless as to the pricing structure they should use.

[ccap41]

 

Anyways, I don't see Porsche Cayman buyers lining up for the Camaro or M2 or M4 buyers lining up for the Camaro any time soon.

 

So your argument about value pricing is going to continue fall on itself every time. Every single time.

Totally missed the point.

If the Camaro can gain conquest sales out of segment, then good. But the segment itself remains about bang for the buck. There is no aristocracy, despite what the various badges and stripe packages may imply.

If your car can't deliver the goods for X amount of dollars it's not gonna do well. And the 1LE is about to finish tipping the apple cart.

 

Why ever buy a Corvette then? Why not just buy a Camaro, super charge it for WAAAAY less then the price difference of a Camaro to a Vette and be on your way smoking everything on the streets? 

 

You honestly don't understand the intangibles statement that Suav put out there. It's like how a car "feels". You don't grasp that concept and it's shown over the course of 180 posts. 

 

I don't know if you're just being stubborn or if you actually don't understand it at this point. 

 

Suav's point is spot on. You don't understand what he is saying because he isn't saying Camaro and Mustang. If bang for your buck is all people cared about Porsche wouldn't be in business, Ferrari, Lamborghini, MB, BMW, etc. And to say this is the only market of cars in which people want bang for your buck is just an ignorant and ill-informed statement. For 42k you can get the same thing every other Camaro has or for 56k you can get something unique, equally capable, more powerful, and they aren't on the corner of every Chevy dealers' lot. People constantly are making automotive purchases from the heart/gut, especially when it comes to a toy car. 

[El Kabong]

Because, again, the Corvette and the ponycar are two separate entities. When I owned my Corvette I appreciated the unique aspects it had. When I owned my Camaro I appreciated the unique aspects IT had. Like back seats. And a bigger trunk. And other stuff I already mentioned.

GM knows full well that this is true, too. Otherwise the Camaro wouldn't be in the lineup. But I already mentioned that too.

Which means the arguments are becoming circular, and nobody has really been able to lay a serious counterargument on my posts or vids. So I guess Al Oppenheiser's confidence in the 1LE is justified, for multiple reasons.

[Suaviloquent]

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

 

 

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

 

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

 

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

 

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

 

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

 

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product. 

[ccap41]

 

[El Kabong]

There's nothing terribly exotic about a flat crank. Certainly nothing any more or less exotic than magnetorheological shocks.

Hell, a spinoff of GM INVENTED MR SHOCKS.

sorry man. Try again!

And why would GM want to move the ponycar upmarket? To what market, pray tell?

#makesnosense

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

There's nothing terribly exotic about a flat crank. Certainly nothing any more or less exotic than magnetorheological shocks.

Hell, a spinoff of GM INVENTED MR SHOCKS.

sorry man

 

Words of wisdom.

[surreal1272]

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

 

 

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

 

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

 

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

 

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

 

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

 

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product. 

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it. 

[oldshurst442]

 

 Its more like this, CCAP

 

 

 

[El Kabong]

ROFL@futilie arguments

[Suaviloquent]

Then why was there a $75,000 Camaro? Why was it a thing?

 

And if this 1LE is better than that, why isn't it a $78,000 Camaro?

 

Answer me that question. Why is GM not pursuing the pricing structure that builds the brand?

[El Kabong]

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

 

 

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

 

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

 

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

 

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

 

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

 

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product.

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it.

I don't even think it's that, necessarily. After all, the Z/28 and ZL1 overlapped the C6. And the ZL1 replacement will as well.

I just think that if the Corvette is well-executed and the Camaro is well-executed the buying public will give each one their props and pay checks in good measure.

But ya: Ford doesn't have a Corvette. And the only way they can fight that is through asymmetrical warfare, or something.

[ccap41]

 

 

 Its more like this, CCAP

 

 

 

 

Hahahaha I forgot about the puking guy!! 

[oldshurst442]

Then why was there a $75,000 Camaro? Why was it a thing?

 

And if this 1LE is better than that, why isn't it a $78,000 Camaro?

 

Answer me that question. Why is GM not pursuing the pricing structure that builds the brand?

Answer this question, El Kabong...

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Suaviloquent]

 

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

 

 

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

 

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

 

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

 

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

 

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

 

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product. 

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it. 

 

I fully agree with that sentiment.

 

Which is why I proposed ages ago that the Corvette should also go up in price. It should be more than its direct competitors.

[surreal1272]

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product.

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave.

Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it.

I don't even think it's that, necessarily. After all, the Z/28 and ZL1 overlapped the C6. And the ZL1 replacement will as well.

I just think that if the Corvette is well-executed and the Camaro is well-executed the buying public will give each one their props and pay checks in good measure.

But ya: Ford doesn't have a Corvette. And the only way they can fight that is through asymmetrical warfare, or something.

Disregard. Had a "derp" moment. Edited February 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

Then why was there a $75,000 Camaro? Why was it a thing?

 

And if this 1LE is better than that, why isn't it a $78,000 Camaro?

 

Answer me that question. Why is GM not pursuing the pricing structure that builds the brand?

Answer this question, El Kabong...

Too slow on the draw. I already did.

[surreal1272]

I don't think anyone has yet to disagree against the objective performance measurements.

 

 

Everything else, just a bunch of drivel, but then again, I don't care enough for the 1LE really. I'm wowed by it but, I might as well save even more by not getting it and sticking to the 2SS.

 

His confidence is justified. By his pricing choice is a miscalculation, for multiple reasons. One being the car is worth a lot more, and GM is entitled to earn more money.

 

The GT350 has a lot of intangible value too, as it has a lot of exotic car tech. So it's a wash.

 

In any sense, anyone getting a GT350 is getting a whole of car for the money as well. And with the kind of stuff it comes with, charging more than a Camaro is justified. And what Camaro should then be doing is charging more than the equivalent Mustang.

 

Why are they afraid to move the car upmarket?

 

Because the brand isn't strong enough!!! And why won't it get stronger? Because they're afraid it'll sell in GT350 volumes if they do so. Again, volume goals are not sustainable for such a product.

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it.

I fully agree with that sentiment.

 

Which is why I proposed ages ago that the Corvette should also go up in price. It should be more than its direct competitors.

The Corvette can be plenty pricey (although a great value compared to some super cars out there) but it does not need to go up in price unless it seriously goes up in content (speaking of lower trims not trims like the Z06).

[El Kabong]

As for the Corvette: what's the problem?

Seriously. It makes money, it sells well, and it doesn't siphon sales from the Camaro.

Why the beef about the price? Isn't six figures for a pimped Z06 costly enough? It's almost two separate models now anyways, because the widebody ain't exactly a cheap variation.

No. The Corvette is just fine.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

Again, there is no problem. Which is the problem.

 

There is no problem for GM jacking up prices across the board. Why go for value for money when it's really value for value?

 

There's an age old term. If it is not broken, fix it.

 

I have no beefs with price.

 

The real thing is that the new Camaro variants give all the performance of the last Corvette without any of the exotic car compromises. So in turn, the cars should be priced similarly.

 

And the Corvette, IMO, should be priced right on point with Porsches. Tit for tat.