1LE Designed To Beat GT350: Al Oppenheiser

[El Kabong]

No.

It would appear you're wings now.

...congrats?

[surreal1272]

Oh good lord people.

 

Have a good one. I'm out of this non-sense for now.

[oldshurst442]

I don't hate on the GT350. I just provide vids and links that show that the Camaro does as well or better for a far lower price.

Calm down already

BULLSHYTE, bro!

 

I showed you a video where all that SHYTE does NOT matter...yet you IGNORE it...and PLOW ahead with YOUR agenda!

 

EFF OFF, bro!

 

Besides...the 1LE aint out yet..

 

Will it have heat soak issues like the Corvette Z06???!!!

We will soon find out...wont we?

 

And if it does...what will be your excuse then?

 

You know...the GT350 is flawless so far!

So is the Hellcat...

 

Yet the Vette...it even gets beat by a 4 door Cadillac sedan in speed performance...and NO HEAT SOAK ISSUES!!!!

 

Yet..you seem docile about that matter!

 

Let me hear you say negative shyte against Chevy and their shytty engineering on the Z06 with heat saok issues...

 

Yeah yeah...brothers did not break in the Vette properly...

Them Toyota excuses are great...works for GM just as good too!

No.

It would appear you're wings now.

...congrats?

THAT would be YOU...

 

CONGRATS right back at you!

 

Yeah yeah...the GT350sucks and the Camaro 1LE is the best!

 

How PHOKING CHILDISH CAN WE GET???!!!

[El Kabong]

Seriously. This is getting ridiculous. I'll even reduce it to bullet points:

-The Alpha Camaro SS already has some performance metrics that match or exceed the Shelby GT350.

-The Shelby GT350, with all the performance-enhancing goodies, rings in in the mid to high fifties.

-The Camaro Chief Engineer has said that the 1LE Camaro has the GT350 as its performance target, and is based off the 1SS, which starts at 37 grand.

-Ergo, expect a 1LE to ring in in the low 40s.

Now, the fifteen-thousand dollar question:

How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less?

...and be honest about it. Because having owned my fair share of not-cheap machinery, I know here's some level of ego involved.

[FordCosworth]

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

 

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?
 

[surreal1272]

One last thing before I go.

 

"So going forward, New Rule - Surreal or Kabong reply to Wings or FordCosworth, you get 2 warning points and a 2 day suspension.  The same will happen in reverse."

[El Kabong]

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

 

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.

But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back.

One last thing before I go.

 

"So going forward, New Rule - Surreal or Kabong reply to Wings or FordCosworth, you get 2 warning points and a 2 day suspension.  The same will happen in reverse."

Oh ya. Forgot about that. Ok, time to tow the line!

[oldshurst442]

Seriously. This is getting ridiculous. I'll even reduce it to bullet points:

-The Alpha Camaro SS already has some performance metrics that match or exceed the Shelby GT350.

-The Shelby GT350, with all the performance-enhancing goodies, rings in in the mid to high fifties.

-The Camaro Chief Engineer has said that the 1LE Camaro has the GT350 as its performance target, and is based off the 1SS, which starts at 37 grand.

-Ergo, expect a 1LE to ring in in the low 40s.

Now, the fifteen-thousand dollar question:

How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less?

...and be honest about it. Because having owned my fair share of not-cheap machinery, I know here's some level of ego involved.

 

 

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

 

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.

But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back.

 

Yeah and?

 

That my friend is normal business in the industry...

 

Thing is...

People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs...

So are the Brits...

 

They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about...

 

But that is the thing though EL K...

 

Lets talk like adults...

 

Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth...

When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one...

They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what...

 

Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing...

Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice...

 

CUE IN SURREAL HERE

 

Yes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground!

 

How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance?

Dont kid yourself EL K...

The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide...

 

Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why...

Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has...

 

You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard...

Why?

 

Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not...

The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that...

If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks...

 

PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s?

You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is?

 

PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German...

They also think that of Ford of Europe...

 

But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA....

Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang...

 

GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin?

 

Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values...

Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing...

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

That has nothing to do with the 1LE having a huge price advantage over the Shelby.

[surreal1272]

Seriously. This is getting ridiculous. I'll even reduce it to bullet points:

-The Alpha Camaro SS already has some performance metrics that match or exceed the Shelby GT350.

-The Shelby GT350, with all the performance-enhancing goodies, rings in in the mid to high fifties.

-The Camaro Chief Engineer has said that the 1LE Camaro has the GT350 as its performance target, and is based off the 1SS, which starts at 37 grand.

-Ergo, expect a 1LE to ring in in the low 40s.

Now, the fifteen-thousand dollar question:

How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less?

...and be honest about it. Because having owned my fair share of not-cheap machinery, I know here's some level of ego involved.

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.

But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back.

Yeah and?

That my friend is normal business in the industry...

Thing is...

People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs...

So are the Brits...

They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about...

But that is the thing though EL K...

Lets talk like adults...

Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth...

When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one...

They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what...

Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing...

Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice...

CUE IN SURREAL HERE

Yes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground!

How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance?

Dont kid yourself EL K...

The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide...

Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why...

Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has...

You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard...

Why?

Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not...

The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that...

If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks...

PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s?

You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is?

PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German...

They also think that of Ford of Europe...

But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA....

Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang...

GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin?

Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values...

Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing...

Why you felt the need to bring me into this, without knowing why I posted what I posted in the first place, is kind of silly and pointless but if it helps you write another diatribe laden novella. Edited February 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

That has nothing to do with the 1LE having a huge price advantage over the Shelby.

Price advantage?

 

Who gives a phoque about price advantage?

Especially when it comes to a BESPOKE V8 engine....

 

Everything about the Camaro is hand me downs...

Chassis, engine, ...all hand me downs...of course the car is cheaper in price...

Like I said...Id just buy myself a Vette and be done with it, or just the basic V8 Camaro instead of the 1LE,

 

EL K...stop with the idiocy over a factor than nobody gives a shyte about...

A GT350 is not your run-of-the mill pony car...like a 1LE...

 

A BESPOKE flat plane crank V8 IS special...

It was engineered for the Mustang GT350...

 

You dont like it....cool, you are allowed...

 

But like I said...the flip side to all that....a 1LE is nothing special....so that 37 000 dollar price tag is deemed to high for me...as I would rather bet it all on black at the Flamingo knowing Bugsy Siegel has rigged the round thing to stop at red....Id get a bigger thrill losing and possibly seeing Bugsy and buying him a drink which that would put me in the hole for $37012...10 dollars for his scotch ontherocks and a 2 dollar tip....than be seen in the Camaro...

 

Its all how one sees it!

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Seriously. This is getting ridiculous. I'll even reduce it to bullet points:

-The Alpha Camaro SS already has some performance metrics that match or exceed the Shelby GT350.

-The Shelby GT350, with all the performance-enhancing goodies, rings in in the mid to high fifties.

-The Camaro Chief Engineer has said that the 1LE Camaro has the GT350 as its performance target, and is based off the 1SS, which starts at 37 grand.

-Ergo, expect a 1LE to ring in in the low 40s.

Now, the fifteen-thousand dollar question:

How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less?

...and be honest about it. Because having owned my fair share of not-cheap machinery, I know here's some level of ego involved.

 

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.

But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back.

Yeah and?

That my friend is normal business in the industry...

Thing is...

People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs...

So are the Brits...

They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about...

But that is the thing though EL K...

Lets talk like adults...

Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth...

When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one...

They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what...

Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing...

Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice...

CUE IN SURREAL HERE

Yes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground!

How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance?

Dont kid yourself EL K...

The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide...

Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why...

Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has...

You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard...

Why?

Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not...

The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that...

If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks...

PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s?

You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is?

PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German...

They also think that of Ford of Europe...

But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA....

Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang...

GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin?

Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values...

Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing...

Why you felt the need to bring me into this, without knowing why I posted what I posted in the first place, is kind of silly and pointless but if it helps you write another diatribe laden novella.

 

diatribe laden novella.

 

You are full of those...more than mine...

And yet you responded too...which you also have a history of doing...non...stop...

 

About the sound....

Yeah..I know why you posted it...you were directing that to me...and with the FERRARI response I gave you...well, ITS OK...I guess people dont buy Ferraris for their engine noises, they buy them for their reliability...

 

Dude...even women have orgasms when they hear Ferraris drive by...

But yeah...engine noises arent that important for performance cars...

[El Kabong]

"Who gives a phoque about price advantage?"

#youcantbeserious

[ccap41]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

[surreal1272]

Seriously. This is getting ridiculous. I'll even reduce it to bullet points:

-The Alpha Camaro SS already has some performance metrics that match or exceed the Shelby GT350.

-The Shelby GT350, with all the performance-enhancing goodies, rings in in the mid to high fifties.

-The Camaro Chief Engineer has said that the 1LE Camaro has the GT350 as its performance target, and is based off the 1SS, which starts at 37 grand.

-Ergo, expect a 1LE to ring in in the low 40s.

Now, the fifteen-thousand dollar question:

How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less?

...and be honest about it. Because having owned my fair share of not-cheap machinery, I know here's some level of ego involved.

" How would you feel if you spent an extra fifteen grand for a pony car only to not be able to outrun another pony car that is fifteen grand less? "

Why don't you ask some of those Z/28 boys? You know, the most capable Camaro to date, which the 1LE will not dethrone, how they feel about being out run by the 10- 12k less pony car?

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.

But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back.

Yeah and?

That my friend is normal business in the industry...

Thing is...

People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs...

So are the Brits...

They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about...

But that is the thing though EL K...

Lets talk like adults...

Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth...

When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one...

They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what...

Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing...

Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice...CUE IN SURREAL HEREYes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground!

How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance?

Dont kid yourself EL K...

The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide...

Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why...

Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has...

You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard...

Why?

Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not...

The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that...

If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks...

PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s?

You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is?

PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German...

They also think that of Ford of Europe...

But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA....

Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang...

GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin?

Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values...

Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing...

Why you felt the need to bring me into this, without knowing why I posted what I posted in the first place, is kind of silly and pointless but if it helps you write another diatribe laden novella.

diatribe laden novella.

You are full of those...more than mine...

And yet you responded too...which you also have a history of doing...non...stop...

About the sound....

Yeah..I know why you posted it...you were directing that to me...and with the FERRARI response I gave you...well, ITS OK...I guess people dont buy Ferraris for their engine noises, they buy them for their reliability...

Dude...even women have orgasms when they hear Ferraris drive by...

But yeah...engine noises arent that important for performance cars...

. Seriously? You didn't make that half page post (on top of the many long winded posts you have made)? Must have been someone else who goes on endlessly that I was thinking about. My bad.

Oh and not one post of mine (prior to the last two) was in any shape or form directed to you, about you, or for you. I'm not going to argue this with you because it is the truth and nothing you can ramble on about will change that. That conversation about engine sounds was between me and ccap41 and I never said I didn't care about the sound so you can just drop the bull$h! Olds because I ain't buyin'.

That is all.

Edited February 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

[oldshurst442]

@ Surreal
. Seriously? You didn't make that half page post (on top of the many long winded posts you have made)? Must been someone else who goes on endlessly that I was thinking about. My bad.

 

Yet you keep on coming back for more...

 

Dude....either stop responding or stop trying to make it seem like you are no drama queen either...

 

 

@ EL K

 

 

YOU are the ONLY one making it a point...

 

Remember dude.. the 2015 GT350 were cars that were LIMITED to 137 units...all accounted for.

 

Dude...the Voodoo 5.2 liter engine is bespoke to that particular trim ONLY...

EL K...you cant possibly be that obtuse...

 

LT1 engines have been in the Vette....34000 the first year and 32000 the second...that is 66 000 units that rolled off the assembly line...

 

THAT is what makes the GT350 SPECIAL...

But go ahead...continue arguing with me...

Ill stop you dead in your tracks...YOU re the one that looks foolish here...not me...despite my novel worthy posts...

[surreal1272]

You dropped my name into this Olds. Of course I'm going to retort especially when you mistakenly think I was talking to you on the other page. Just suck it for once and leave my name out of $h! that has nothing to do with me. It's that simple. Good grief man.

I'll leave the drama queen schtick to you.

Edited February 18, 2016 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

 

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

 

Yeah....its a little too soon to be talking about Zeta ZL-1 depreciation...

Come and see me in just a short 3 years...

Why?

You yourself keeps on wax poeting about the Alpha Camaro...

As good as the ZL-1 was...YOU yourself is clamming about OVERPRICENESS and OBSELETENESS...you think the Alpha Camaro wont hamper on the ZL-1's depreciation?

Dude...the Zeta Camaro was NEVER lust worthy...in the end it was a fantastic performer...but that's about it...

Like I said....YOU YOURSELF thinks the Alpha Camaro is the second coming of Christ...hey...its your rules...

[oldshurst442]

You dropped my name into this Olds. Of course I'm going to retort especially when you mistakenly think I was talking to you on the other page. Just suck it for once and leave my name out of $h! that has nothing to do with me. It's that simple. Good grief man.

Dude...go back and see if I answered your comment about sound....and you will see I never answered you back...

 

Tis YOU that said that V8 sound does not sell cars alone...

Yet...Jay Leno...he keeps on talking about that sound the Voodoo makes...

And...Ferrari.

 

Hey...Its YOU that made that claim...now..live with the shame.

[oldshurst442]

For the silly boys who are trying to compare the GT350 to the Vette Z51, maybe they should actually read that article. When a car whens on "feeL" (and that where they gave the GT350 the victory), that is not exactly very convincing to me. That "feel", which was just another way of saying "golly, that engine noise sure is swell", will wear off in time for the driver and then they are left to wonder why they can't actually keep up with that Vette (that has far more features and content, which was pointed out in the same article). Just saying, before fanboys try to throw out a pointless counter to what has been said here, maybe they should actually read what they are trying to counter.

 

Fact is that none of these cars are slouches but when Ford's top Mustang already has a $10K cheaper Camaro (that is not even close to it's top dog model yet), that is not good news for Ford. Enjoy that sweet engine note while it lasts. It's sounds even better when it's behind you (if you're a Camaro driver).

It didn't beat it in performance measurements though. 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile, skid pad, etc... Which is all Bong cares about. 

 

I did find it interesting that they tied to 150mph @ 22.1 seconds. I assume it has to do with the shift points of each car. The Vette may have just shifted while the GT350 hadn't..because that sky-high red line. 

The Vette beat it in almost every performance metric. Sorry, but a sweet engine note alone does not a car make.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2016-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2016-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-4

BUMP...

 

but a sweet engine note alone does not a car make.

 

 

Yeah...tell that to Ferrari...Lamborghini...

 

Especially when EVERYBODY knows their cars burn themselves to the ground...

[El Kabong]

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

Yeah....its a little too soon to be talking about Zeta ZL-1 depreciation...

Come and see me in just a short 3 years...

Why?

You yourself keeps on wax poeting about the Alpha Camaro...

As good as the ZL-1 was...YOU yourself is clamming about OVERPRICENESS and OBSELETENESS...you think the Alpha Camaro wont hamper on the ZL-1's depreciation?

Dude...the Zeta Camaro was NEVER lust worthy...in the end it was a fantastic performer...but that's about it...

Like I said....YOU YOURSELF thinks the Alpha Camaro is the second coming of Christ...hey...its your rules...

You lost me at "Zeta Camaro was NEVER lust worthy."

Yes... All those sales crowns were just a pleasant surprise.

#inconvenienttruth

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

EL K...

 

You are DESPERATELY trying to find faults...real or imagined...

And you know what...you failed...

 

2015 GT350....limited to 137 units...

 

137 units

137 units

137 units

137 units

 

limited to 137 units.

limited to 137 units.

limited to 137 units.

limited to 137 units.

 

 

The LT-1 engine has had a chance to be sold in another car....66 000 units.

 

The Voodoo V8, is bespoke to the Mustang in very limited numbers...BY CHOICE!!!

 

And you sit here arguing about price differential?

Yet...you cant see where I was going with that when I was telling you that NOBODY gives a shyte about that criteria...only YOU???!!!

 

The GT350 was priced that high....because it was NEVER meant to be sold at mainstream levels...BESPOKE V8...unlike the LT1...

 

But....I know you know....

I know you know how it works...

AND THAT IS WHY IM PISSED AT YOU!!!

'Cause YOU are not the naive little high schoolboy just looking at car mags for the numbers...

 

YOU KNOW the industry, yet instead of using your influence to INFORM us....YOU DECIDE TO TROLL...

 

Technically...the GT350 and the 1LE are NOT targeting the same market...

The GT350 is going for the collector crowd...the ones that ALWAYS come through for FORD when Ford introduces yet another special edition Mustang....and maybe some other car enthusiast from a different flavour...

 

The Camaro 1LE...especially at that price point...is targeting anybody that has 40 000 dollars to spend on a week-end toy...

 

THAT is why Im saying the Camaro 1LE is bland...

The thing is...YOU KNEW where I was going with it....because YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE yourself...

 

Cut the crap already!

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

I can honestly say that I don't know what the resale value is or depreciation rate is on the two over a 5 year period but I'd wager decent money that that bridge closes quite a bit right there.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly.

Yeah....its a little too soon to be talking about Zeta ZL-1 depreciation...

Come and see me in just a short 3 years...

Why?

You yourself keeps on wax poeting about the Alpha Camaro...

As good as the ZL-1 was...YOU yourself is clamming about OVERPRICENESS and OBSELETENESS...you think the Alpha Camaro wont hamper on the ZL-1's depreciation?

Dude...the Zeta Camaro was NEVER lust worthy...in the end it was a fantastic performer...but that's about it...

Like I said....YOU YOURSELF thinks the Alpha Camaro is the second coming of Christ...hey...its your rules...

You lost me at "Zeta Camaro was NEVER lust worthy."

Yes... All those sales crowns were just a pleasant surprise.

#inconvenienttruth

 

It was NEVER lust worthy....

Just to the GM gearheads...

YOU mistake high performance numbers to "word on the street"

 

Sales crowns?

The 2002 Camaro got canned for virtually the same sales numbers...

Its just that the Trans Am dragged the profits down as the F-Body had to make profit for 2 brands...

It done did good...but sales crowns? That might be too strong of a hyperbole...

 

The Mustang was neck in neck....

I did not see Ford cancel the Mustang due to the fact that Mustang guys defected over to Chevy...

 

So...stop with the childish arguments....

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

EL K...

 

Start addressing the fact that the 5.2 liter Voodoo has been VOLUNTARILY limited to 137 units in the first year and then tell me about economies of scale and then tell me the GT350 is overpriced...

 

Until then...your posts are just GARBAGE!

 

OH...the GT350 performs quite well in the numbers department...so dont even go there....

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Actually....Corvette sales numbers are 37 000 and 34 000

 

71 000 LT1s....not 66 000 LT1 that I originally stated...71 000 LT1 engines on the street...plus whatever Cadillac has sold in their V Series cars...plus whatever amounts the Camaro ends up selling...

versus 137 Voodoo engines in the first year....and not that much more for the second year...

 

And you wanna question the specialnous of the Voodoo?

 

Because obviously at this point...it really is ONLY about the performance numbers...

 

Wow EL K...

Just wow...

 

And to make it more clear...

 

The 1LE is targeted to whatever schlep has 40 000 dollars to spend on a car...daily driver or week-end toy...it dont matter...get him in the showroom, tell him the Camero ILE faster than the Mustang...or Nissan 370Z, or Genesis Coupe and sale is made...

 

The GT350, its a tad more than that...and if you cant see that...well..EL K....you arent much of a car guy....you are just a regular sheep, a GM sheep dog wagging his tail on  whatever GM tells you to wag your tail on...

 

Ironic aint it?

 

That you think of others this way and I think of you that way...

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Shouty font don't change a thing, man. GM has a good thing going, at a great price. That's just the way it is.

[surreal1272]

Shouty font don't change a thing, man. GM has a good thing going, at a great price. That's just the way it is.

The shouty font is awesome. It's the only way you can get someone to truly listen to what you're saying, even if what you're saying is completely absent of facts, truth, or anything resembling a sane conversation. </sarcasm>

[oldshurst442]

Shouty font don't change a thing, man. GM has a good thing going, at a great price. That's just the way it is.

Id say the shouty font worked on your attitude...

 

That what you said...is a far cry from saying the GT350 sucks...

 

You were so gung ho with that...

Different meaning...GM does a good thing at a great price...

 

Nobody is denying that dude.

 

Im glad you didnt diss on the GT350...and THAT was my point! 

 

THAT was the first time you did not diss on the GT350...strange, huh?

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Sorry man. The shouty font just looks silly.

I don't understand all the fury over a few vid and magazine links. If you have an irrational like or hate for something then fine.

But there is not one soul who posts in here who would buy the Shelby and not wince at the fact that they're spending an extra fifteen grand for an engine note. There just isn't.

But shooting the messenger ain't gonna change that.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

Sorry man. The shouts font just looks silly.

I don't understand all the fury over a few vid and magazine links. If you have an irrational like or hate for something then fine.

But there is not one soul who posts in here who would buy the Shelby and not wince at the fact that they're spending an extra fifteen grand for an engine note. There just isn't.

But shooting the messenger ain't gonna change that.

Nah...you do understand...

 

You ignore the questions thrown your way...

You ignore the other vids that contradict YOUR point of view...

 

What you are doing aint being the messenger....what you are doing is trolling.

 

But its all good man...

I got you to change your tune.

 

YOUR FINAL MESSAGE IS THIS:

 

GM has a good thing going, at a great price.

 

 

 

To what Ill answer is: HELL YEAH Brother!

 

Yet you did not explain to me how a mass produced engine in the LT1 compare to a very very low produced bespoke engine in price tags...

But ITS ALL GOOD...

 

I succeeded in changing your tune...

 

GM has a good thing going, at a great price.

 

 

No mention of Ford, GT350...just a message of how awesome GM can be...and NOBODY could deny that...

and THAT should have been your message from the get go...

 

Besides, I did not aim for your head when I shot my .44 at you.

Just your knee caps.

Edited February 18, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

But the Shelby IS overpriced. I just assumed that now went without saying.

Fifteen grand for an engine note is going to be a deal killer for a LOT of people. It just is.

GM can price their RWD stuff lower because they build more RWD stuff. This allows them to add more quality to their RWD stuff too.

It's nothing against Ford specifically. But they ARE part of the collateral damage.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

But the Shelby IS overpriced. I just assumed that now went without saying.

One more thing Bong.

 

SHOUTY FONT SHOUTY FONT, SHOUTY FONT!!!!!

 

NOW IN COLOR!!

[oldshurst442]

But the Shelby IS overpriced. I just assumed that now went without saying.

You see EL K...THAT is trolling...

 

I could shouty font it...but I think the folk understand what is what...

BTW....you still havent shown why its overpriced since I told you the LT1 engine is mass produced but the Voodoo is not...

 

And THAT is where your argument falls apart and it just becomes trolling.

[El Kabong]

For the luvva gawd.

I've posted stuff out the wazoo to support my claims.

It ain't trolling if you can prove it.

And as far as I can see, I've proven it as well as I can until they strap test gear to the 1LE to back up GM's claims. But even then, I'm stalking my claims on GM's claims. And they're the ones making the thing.

[oldshurst442]

Wings had FordCosworth...

You have Surreal...

 

The irony is just too much for me to handle....

 

Ill just laugh it off...

[Suaviloquent]

Going further back, LIKE WAYYY back, like the Matthew McConaughey back in this thread...

 

El K and I have been really saying the same argument, just different iteration.

 

His argument is that the Camaro delivers superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and will win market share by selling at a price unbeatable by the competition. The competition is forced to compete on GM's terms, which puts the company ahead in the product race.

 

My argument is to deliver superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and to sell at price above the competition to develop the brand, and "fire" customers who don't want your value proposition. My argument is that the subjective matters too. And you can assign value to what people want that is intangible - such as looks and sound, and charge a fair price for it too - all to build the story of the brand. And the story of the brand is what carries the names of your product. The story is what it's about. And I want the superior story to sell at a superior price.

 

There is no difference, and being ahead of the competition and pricing above them can go hand in hand.

 

When I said again, arm chair marketers, I really meant democrats and republicans. So now you know how the sausage is made.

 

Look, I'm just going to say it, pricing above the competition isn't greedy. It's chasing after every consumer with the same value proposition that is. For example, the incredible pricing advantage of the Camaro affects more than just the Mustang or the Challenger. 

 

If there's any American brand that I expect to be the best at anything right now (except quiet luxury) it's Cadillac - especially bettering the German competition. I would hope that the ATS-V (especially coupe) would be the obvious performance choice in this small car high performance segment. I think the pricing just erodes the value in the ATS-V. And the weird thing is (my subjective viewpoint was always why the LF4, when a V8 is what American performance buyers expect?), putting the LF4 was what I think Ford would've done in the hi-po, small car segment.

 

Honestly, being more in tune with GM recently, I see no value in the Corvette story if the Mustang GT350 (being better than a Corvette) - which if the Camaro beats already, you know, TWO pony cars I would consider before the Corvette.

 

So we're coming to the conclusion. It's no secret that buyers of the incumbents, M, AMG and RS from Quattro and others have developed new vehicles that are not as hard core as they used to be? Why? Because they have built a brand to the point that the value is inherent. 

 

And it's good to know that the Mustang now is trying to create a better value proposition. But I don't think the Mustang buyer really cares. The ones who wanted the earliest 2015s paid handsomely - and they don't feel upset because most of them aren't driving them.

 

But if the Mustang is now trying to compete on price more, it's all the more obvious that the Camaro creates even more value that I thought, and should therefore be priced even higher.  

 

If the value is inherent, and it is, I want Alpha platform to reign in the monies. Make every dollar you can, that you deserve for the hard work.

 

So again, Democrats, Republicans... same story, different person.

[El Kabong]

Wings had FordCosworth...

You have Surreal...

The irony is just too much for me to handle....

Ill just laugh it off...

There's no irony.

You're just avoiding the reality of the situation. Hell, they got this exact thread cooking over in FIN and they're admitting that the changes Ford's making to the Shelby options list are a reaction to the 1LE's pricing.

I'm sorry if these things sting you.

But that's kinda what Bumblebees do.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

For the luvva gawd.

I've posted stuff out the wazoo to support my claims.

It ain't trolling if you can prove it.

And as far as I can see, I've proven it as well as I can until they strap test gear to the 1LE to back up GM's claims. But even then, I'm stalking my claims on GM's claims. And they're the ones making the thing.

You proved shyte...EL K...

 

What...a journalists point of view...

I countered with Jay Leno...

 

He said the engine was the GREATEST engine built in the US today!

He said the  GT350 is a PURE REAL 100% European Sports Car.

And a bunch of other stuff...

 

And that my friend....just counters YOUR shyte that you call proof.

Yet...you choose to ignore that...

 

Auto Journalists have magazines to sell...

 

Jay Leno...talks with his money...his own money that actually bought the car for his own pleasure...

THAT my friend...trumps ANYTHING YOU have to say...

 

OH...you bought yourself a Zeta Camaro...good on you...

The thing is...THAT also shows your bias...

 

Jay Leno...he got Mustangs in his stable...but he also got Camaros in his stable...

 

Sorry EL K...your bias shows big time...

Your zealousnous shows big time...

Your trolling is very apparent.

 

I calls them as I sees them.

[El Kabong]

Going further back, LIKE WAYYY back, like the Matthew McConaughey back in this thread...

El K and I have been really saying the same argument, just different iteration.

His argument is that the Camaro delivers superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and will win market share by selling at a price unbeatable by the competition. The competition is forced to compete on GM's terms, which puts the company ahead in the product race.

My argument is to deliver superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and to sell at price above the competition to develop the brand, and "fire" customers who don't want your value proposition. My argument is that the subjective matters too. And you can assign value to what people want that is intangible - such as looks and sound, and charge a fair price for it too - all to build the story of the brand. And the story of the brand is what carries the names of your product. The story is what it's about. And I want the superior story to sell at a superior price.

There is no difference, and being ahead of the competition and pricing above them can go hand in hand.

When I said again, arm chair marketers, I really meant democrats and republicans. So now you know how the sausage is made.

Look, I'm just going to say it, pricing above the competition isn't greedy. It's chasing after every consumer with the same value proposition that is. For example, the incredible pricing advantage of the Camaro affects more than just the Mustang or the Challenger.

If there's any American brand that I expect to be the best at anything right now (except quiet luxury) it's Cadillac - especially bettering the German competition. I would hope that the ATS-V (especially coupe) would be the obvious performance choice in this small car high performance segment. I think the pricing just erodes the value in the ATS-V. And the weird thing is (my subjective viewpoint was always why the LF4, when a V8 is what American performance buyers expect?), putting the LF4 was what I think Ford would've done in the hi-po, small car segment.

Honestly, being more in tune with GM recently, I see no value in the Corvette story if the Mustang GT350 (being better Apparently one of the big things on social media is taking a selfie of yourself in a mirror. I don't recall ever doing it so I decided to give it a go.

...I don't get what the fuss is all about. re the Corvette.

So we're coming to the conclusion. It's no secret that buyers of the incumbents, M, AMG and RS from Quattro and others have developed new vehicles that are not as hard core as they used to be? Why? Because they have built a brand to the point that the value is inherent.

And it's good to know that the Mustang now is trying to create a better value proposition. But I don't think the Mustang buyer really cares. The ones who wanted the earliest 2015s paid handsomely - and they don't feel upset because most of them aren't driving them.

But if the Mustang is now trying to compete on price more, it's all the more obvious that the Camaro creates even more value that I thought, and should therefore be priced even higher.

If the value is inherent, and it is, I want Alpha platform to reign in the monies. Make every dollar you can, that you deserve for the hard work.

So again, Democrats, Republicans... same story, different person.

For the most part I'm onboard with this. But the Corvette truly is a different animal. It is no more a competitor to the Mustang as it would be to a Charger or SS sedan.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

 

Wings had FordCosworth...

You have Surreal...

The irony is just too much for me to handle....

Ill just laugh it off...

There's no irony.

You're just avoiding the reality of the situation. Hell, they got this exact thread cooking over in FIN and they're admitting that the changes Ford's making to the Shelby options list are a reaction to the 1LE's pricing.

I'm sorry if these things sting you.

But that's kinda what Bumblebees do.

 

 

Again...mass produced LT1 compared to low volume Voodoo...

A limited production run versus main stream track car...

 

 

Bumblebees get swatted you know...

[El Kabong]

For the luvva gawd.

I've posted stuff out the wazoo to support my claims.

It ain't trolling if you can prove it.

And as far as I can see, I've proven it as well as I can until they strap test gear to the 1LE to back up GM's claims. But even then, I'm stalking my claims on GM's claims. And they're the ones making the thing.

You proved shyte...EL K...

 

What...a journalists point of view...

I countered with Jay Leno...

 

He said the engine was the GREATEST engine built in the US today!

He said the  GT350 is a PURE REAL 100% European Sports Car.

And a bunch of other stuff...

 

And that my friend....just counters YOUR shyte that you call proof.

Yet...you choose to ignore that...

 

Auto Journalists have magazines to sell...

 

Jay Leno...talks with his money...his own money that actually bought the car for his own pleasure...

THAT my friend...trumps ANYTHING YOU have to say...

 

OH...you bought yourself a Zeta Camaro...good on you...

The thing is...THAT also shows your bias...

 

Jay Leno...he got Mustangs in his stable...but he also got Camaros in his stable...

 

Sorry EL K...your bias shows big time...

Your zealousnous shows big time...

Your trolling is very apparent.

 

I calls them as I sees them.

They have laser surgery for that now.

[El Kabong]

Look. Just quit while you're ahead. I posted the OP. We have the Shelby's numbers. We have a video conparo of the two. And we have Oppenheiser's claims. Also his track record.

You have Jay Leno driving a Shelby in isolation and an admitted hatred for the Camaro based on a movie.

[Suaviloquent]

Its nothing new for GM, especially Chevy to build performance number delivering vehicles. Two generations of Corvettes and two of Camaro, including the new one.

 

So what would be new is GM changing is pricing strategy to be on top of its competition if the company truly believes it is delivering more value.

 

That's the appeal of the Corvette though. The buyers are trained such that they think it's the affordable exotic. But that fails to build a premium brand, and I can see why a Chevy car with a Corvette name reaching multiple six figures would be tough to sell to the same buyer.

 

We know it's perhaps the best exotic for certain reasons, and the price just ends up being a great windfall. But it's not perceived the same way. It's because of the brand that in the face of obvious performance shortfalls that Porsche buyers, that M, AMG buyers have not defected wholesale to GM's different performance brands. 

 

And building a brand does take time. But building it to a price - it can train the buyer. And I'm not sure if in the long-run that is what GM wants in its best interests.

[oldshurst442]

I like your new sig EL K...

 

Its just facts....nothing personal...

 

Facts gets distorted...often...

especially by spin doctors...

 

Irony as over at MT...TAF used to say that often about Ford PR fluff...

Yet...I see the same from you El K...GM PR Fluff...

 

You still havent proved the GT350 is overpriced...

 

Nobody has...

 

Again...

mass produced LT1:  71 000 units on the street in Corvettes...

137 units, maybe a couple more due to a LIMITED production run of Voodoos...

 

There is a message what Suave is saying...TWICE he said it...yet YOU, decide to ignore that too...

 

GM PR Fluff...

 

 

For the luvva gawd.
I've posted stuff out the wazoo to support my claims.
It ain't trolling if you can prove it.
And as far as I can see, I've proven it as well as I can until they strap test gear to the 1LE to back up GM's claims. But even then, I'm stalking my claims on GM's claims. And they're the ones making the thing.

You proved shyte...EL K...
 
What...a journalists point of view...
I countered with Jay Leno...
 
He said the engine was the GREATEST engine built in the US today!
He said the  GT350 is a PURE REAL 100% European Sports Car.
And a bunch of other stuff...
 
And that my friend....just counters YOUR shyte that you call proof.
Yet...you choose to ignore that...
 
Auto Journalists have magazines to sell...
 
Jay Leno...talks with his money...his own money that actually bought the car for his own pleasure...
THAT my friend...trumps ANYTHING YOU have to say...
 
OH...you bought yourself a Zeta Camaro...good on you...
The thing is...THAT also shows your bias...
 
Jay Leno...he got Mustangs in his stable...but he also got Camaros in his stable...
 
Sorry EL K...your bias shows big time...
Your zealousnous shows big time...
Your trolling is very apparent.
 
I calls them as I sees them.

They have laser surgery for that now.

 

I see fine...I hit your knee caps...your argument has no legs to stand on...

[Suaviloquent]

 

Going further back, LIKE WAYYY back, like the Matthew McConaughey back in this thread...

El K and I have been really saying the same argument, just different iteration.

His argument is that the Camaro delivers superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and will win market share by selling at a price unbeatable by the competition. The competition is forced to compete on GM's terms, which puts the company ahead in the product race.

My argument is to deliver superior product (based on validated, objective performance metrics), and to sell at price above the competition to develop the brand, and "fire" customers who don't want your value proposition. My argument is that the subjective matters too. And you can assign value to what people want that is intangible - such as looks and sound, and charge a fair price for it too - all to build the story of the brand. And the story of the brand is what carries the names of your product. The story is what it's about. And I want the superior story to sell at a superior price.

There is no difference, and being ahead of the competition and pricing above them can go hand in hand.

When I said again, arm chair marketers, I really meant democrats and republicans. So now you know how the sausage is made.

Look, I'm just going to say it, pricing above the competition isn't greedy. It's chasing after every consumer with the same value proposition that is. For example, the incredible pricing advantage of the Camaro affects more than just the Mustang or the Challenger.

If there's any American brand that I expect to be the best at anything right now (except quiet luxury) it's Cadillac - especially bettering the German competition. I would hope that the ATS-V (especially coupe) would be the obvious performance choice in this small car high performance segment. I think the pricing just erodes the value in the ATS-V. And the weird thing is (my subjective viewpoint was always why the LF4, when a V8 is what American performance buyers expect?), putting the LF4 was what I think Ford would've done in the hi-po, small car segment.

Honestly, being more in tune with GM recently, I see no value in the Corvette story if the Mustang GT350 (being better Apparently one of the big things on social media is taking a selfie of yourself in a mirror. I don't recall ever doing it so I decided to give it a go.

...I don't get what the fuss is all about. re the Corvette.

So we're coming to the conclusion. It's no secret that buyers of the incumbents, M, AMG and RS from Quattro and others have developed new vehicles that are not as hard core as they used to be? Why? Because they have built a brand to the point that the value is inherent.

And it's good to know that the Mustang now is trying to create a better value proposition. But I don't think the Mustang buyer really cares. The ones who wanted the earliest 2015s paid handsomely - and they don't feel upset because most of them aren't driving them.

But if the Mustang is now trying to compete on price more, it's all the more obvious that the Camaro creates even more value that I thought, and should therefore be priced even higher.

If the value is inherent, and it is, I want Alpha platform to reign in the monies. Make every dollar you can, that you deserve for the hard work.

So again, Democrats, Republicans... same story, different person.

For the most part I'm onboard with this. But the Corvette truly is a different animal. It is no more a competitor to the Mustang as it would be to a Charger or SS sedan.

 

 

No. Why? It's the Camaro a vehicle that can upset supercars as per Motortrend.

 

The cars compete than you would believe, because you're talking about numbers, numbers alone, not the intangibles.

[El Kabong]

I've left the intangibles alone because as someone who has owned both a Corvette and a Camaro I already know they exist. I also know that they are very different animals, as did Car and Driver. They didn't call their "comparo" Asymmetrical Warfare for nothing.

They did Ford a solid by giving the Shelby a comparo win before its real conpetition arrived.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

Look. Just quit while you're ahead. I posted the OP. We have the Shelby's numbers. We have a video conparo of the two. And we have Oppenheiser's claims. Also his track record.

You have Jay Leno driving a Shelby in isolation and an admitted hatred for the Camaro based on a movie.

CLAIMS...

 

Oppenheiser;s CLAIMS..CLAIMS...the car aint out yet...GM PR FLUFF...

Oh...I aint doubting the performance it will have...

Yet you are are basing you entire thesis on...CLAIMS...

 

JAY LENO has MORE cars in his garage than Oppenheimer has...and Oppenheimer worrks for a car company...

No doubt that Jay Leno will want a 1LE in his stable as well...but that is the point...

AMERICAN cars rock today...

 

 

YOU have it in for Ford...

I only have it in for the Camaro...

 

YOU have it in for the entire car company that is Ford...

I HAVE admitted that the Camaro is a good car...YOU, are still on a tirade...

 

EL K...

 

You are really not looking good on this argument...

[El Kabong]

On the contrary. I'm looking golden on this argument.

Your car can't even win a stoplight win against a slushbox SS. It's pretty much a given that a 1LE will match it, at the very least. And that price gap!...

And Ford is already juggling the option packages before Job One gets built. Now THAT'S telling.

Edited February 18, 2016 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

Like I said, part of targeting a segment is firing the customers you don't want.

 

Ford doesn't want the EL Ks of their world to buy their Shelbys. Nor does Porsche. Nor does AMG or M.

 

Those kind of customers demand a lot and don't want to pay a lot. Those customers, YOU want to fire them because they go to your competition and either drive them out of business if they're the same size or at-least prevent the other guy by moving upmarket.

 

Now GM isn't in that situation, and the economics are different.

 

But still. The point remains. You pick who you want. Some guy wants incredible looks and sound. Some guy wants the numbers - and is okay with that even if the new styling is a bit meh and the V8 is like any other V8 the company has made before, great, but not bespoke, and a familiar sound at that.

 

But now the previous buyer of the Corvette might be even a little perturbed how the runt Camaro is getting any attention, because it's like the Corvette was robbed of everything that made it great to sell the same in a car at a lower price point.

 

I'm not saying that the Camaro should purposely tank. Obviously the new Corvette was atleast $30,000 better than the last even, even the base stingray.

 

I would reckon (very arbitrary) that the SS 1LE should be between $55 to 60k. And the Corvette Stingray should just have Z51 folded in (I think it already is) and priced from $85,000. The value is there. We all agree on that. 

 

But GM for volume reasons did not go there. Look, wearing out your machinery and tooling is a thing as well. Always going for volume goals is not the pinnacle of success. It can deliver great product at a great price. But I think GM wants great returns even more.

I've left the intangibles alone because as someone who has owned both a Corvette and a Camaro I already know they exist. I also know that they are very different animals, as did Car and Driver. They didn't call their "comparo" Asymmetrical Warfare for nothing.

They did Ford a solid by giving the Shelby a comparo win before its real conpetition arrived.

 

A win is a win, and that's something from your playbook. I'd hunt to find where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure my jarred memory, Maserati edition is better than even yours.