1LE Designed To Beat GT350: Al Oppenheiser

[El Kabong]

Al Oppenheiser finally states what many of us have suspected: a Camaro SS variant will suffice to take down a Shelby Mustang.

"During our time to chat with Al Oppenheiser, chief Camaro engineer, we got right down to business and asked what everyone wants to know: will the 2017 Camaro SS 1LE outperform the Shelby GT350?

"'That’s obviously our intent. I have the answer, but I’ll let the rest of you decide how we did. Our goal is to up the game with our competitor, just like they upped the game with the GT350. Everyone had to expect we would punch back. I will tell you this car is three seconds faster than the previous 1LE. Your readers can go out and make their own conclusions,' Oppenheiser stated in utmost confidence.

"'We’re plowing new ground with the V6 1LE, and for the SS 1LE, our initial target benchmark was the fifth-generation 1LE. But, obviously, Ford came out with their GT350 and we changed our sights. We’re not worried.'"

More at the link:

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/02/2017-chevrolet-camaro-1le-expected-to-outperform-the-shelby-gt350/

Edited February 15, 2016 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

Not a surprising result there. The SS is already a beast and handles the GT with ease (see the Road and Track review I posted). I really want to see what the top their Camaro will be like (thought I would never say that).

[cp-the-nerd]

Tests have already shown the standard SS to be neck and neck with the GT350 Track Pack, so the ability of the 1LE to go beyond that was a foregone conclusion. I'm just curious to see how close this car gets to the outgoing Z/28 and GT350R.

[El Kabong]

Oppenheiser claims the new 1LE is three seconds a lap faster than the old one. Unfortunately, he doesn't specify what track he's referring to (Milford?). If it's on any track shorter than Virginia International though, that's an enormous improvement.

It also makes me wonder what an LT4 version could do.

[Suaviloquent]

Now the car is creating a lot of value for the track enthusiast who wants a track focused sports car. 

 

Now why won't Chevy charge more for it? I mean, I expect the SS 1LE to beat the GT350 and most likely match and exceed the 350R?

 

If the value is there, the car should be priced higher than what I think we all expect. An SS 1LE should be priced above a GT350 in that case. Even close to the Z/28.

 

Because seriously, you'd be getting more than the Z/28 in every aspect. Better interior quality, better power to weight, better braking performance (other than the lack of CC brakes standard), better fuel economy (no gas guzzler tax), the option of an automatic... better infotainment, everything is improved. So charge more for it.

 

Because the 1LE is going to go after the same cars that the GT350/R also beat recently. It's assured that it has moved the performance needle higher, then my only nag is that GM should milk the car for the profits they deserve to earn.

 

And the LT4 version might crush even the Z06, because the cooling potential of a larger frontal with bigger intakes is there... So why not charge more?

 

I mean, like it's coming to the point that it's performing even better than the V, and all it lacks is the interior quality of Cadillac - and lack of CUE is something I'd take any day.

[El Kabong]

GMI interviewed Oppenheiser. He swore that they were trying to get the V8 1LE to come in under forty grand. If you figure that the 1SS starts at 37 and the Recaros can kinda be regarded as an upgrade as opposed to a standalone deal...

But the thing is: the Camaro isn't underpriced. The Shelby is overpriced. Part of this is just performance metrics and bang for the buck: the Shelby isn't all that quick for all that horsepower. Additionally, the Track Pack goodies are, again, optional. But beyond that, the Camaro must give some consideration to the Corvette and Cadillac ATS-V in the performance pecking order. It can't to TOO high in price, or it will cease to exist.

[Suaviloquent]

I wholehartedly disagree. The Mustang GT350/R is not overpriced in terms of MSRP - the sound it makes is worth a $10,000 ALONE. And again, overpriced is such a dubious term. If the company is milking the profit potential, then it doesn't really matter. Besides, I don't think the Mustang variants really cover their costs anyhow. The dealer markup is a different story. The Camaro could be making more more money if they charged more for it.

 

I mean, either we're going to see the Camaro increase in price, or see the the dealers start selling GT350 at MSRP. Even then the Chevy SS 1LE lose on transaction pricing.

 

If the donor Cadillac or higher up Chevy loses to a lower positioned Chevy, then that's Cadillac's problem.

 

Certainly it makes no sense to sell a performance car for less money that offers more performance than the dedicated performance version of the ATS.

 

I don't see the $20,000 price gap being an issue of cost. It's a question of brand identity. And if the Camaro is superior, it should be priced to be superior. Because there's always the guys who say, first we'll get the market, and then we'll decide to raise the price. We had the whole thread about how the base Camaro costs more than the base Mustang because you get more for your money. So I'll make the same stand. Excellent product. Now price it according to the value proposition you are delivering, otherwise the customer will be trained to only buy your product if you sell it at a low price.

 

Even if economies of Alpha scale make the product affordable - then even double the reason to get more profits.

 

Besides, that's what I would do. A Camaro that performs better - yes, more performance, and then priced higher - yes, more desirable, more aspirational.

 

Anyways, regardless... Armchair marketing....

[Robert Hall]

I wonder if they will do a Z/28 version of the new generation...

[El Kabong]

Its all well and good to say that the Shelby's engine note is worth 10 grand all by itself.

The problem is that you potentially still have another ten grand to make up. Lest we forget, the C/D Shelby rang in at nearly 60 grand.

It's entirely possible that Ford sales guys will find folks who will belly up and pay over sticker for a car whose main selling points are a Honda-esque redline and being named after a dead guy.

But the smart money is on the Bowtie. It's a survival-of-the-fittest game, and right now Al Oppenheiser has the Darwin meter turned up to 11.

[El Kabong]

I wonder if they will do a Z/28 version of the new generation...

They're being pretty coy on the specifics right now, and I don't know if it'll be a 7.0L version of the LT... but I'm guessing they'll do something along those lines. Maybe a C7.R motor variant?

[Robert Hall]

I assume there will also be a higher power Shelby as well, since they named the current car the GT-350, that leaves room for a GT-500..

[El Kabong]

I assume there will also be a higher power Shelby as well, since they named the current car the GT-350, that leaves room for a GT-500..

I'm pretty sure that Ford will have a GT500-type car coming. The big question will be how many cylinders it will have. If Ford decides to take the powertrain-saving thing to the extreme then the best way for them to avoid the cost issues they have with the GT350 is to use an EcoBoost V6. The only other vehicle they have that could theoretically use that power is the F-150 and guess what kind of engine the new Raptor is going to have?

[Robert Hall]

Maybe they will use the twin turbo V6 from the 2017 GT.  600+hp is not bad.

[El Kabong]

Maybe they will use the twin turbo V6 from the 2017 GT.  600+hp is not bad.

If they go down that road it's the cylinder count that'll do them in. We may already be seeing some level of TTV6 skepticism based on their truck sales versus GM.

[Suaviloquent]

Well, I think the problem with that is how does any automaker make CAFE compliant vehicles?

 

As we are told, Hellcats will not get a second generation.

 

Ford can sell the Voodoo because it is such a low volume engine, that the hit to CAFE isn't big.

 

But we've seen Mopar sell their pony cars having more power than their exotic.

 

The BMW i8 runs on a 3 cylinder engine, all the latest CF tech, and a rich man's Prius FWD drive-train, weighs more than, costs double of a Corvette, has less power and that absurd cylinder count in a supposed performance car certainly isn't "doing them in."

 

Again, even Porsche is going to put in four cylinders in their cars - and sells hi-po variants with 6 cylinders.

 

Right now is the time between massive CAFE neutering. We shall enjoy the high fuel consuming and powerful engines for the last time...

[El Kabong]

If Ford was showing any real mileage improvement with their engines it would be a different story, maybe. But I suspect that going down the TT engine path was more a matter of One Ford having little room for engines with more than six cylinders-not FWD-friendly. Problem is, ponycars and pickups are all about the eights. And as long as at least one automaker does right by the segment they will probably reap the rewards.

Mullaly's decisions while he was the big boss at Ford will probably mean a steady erosion of sales in these segments. The fact that GM is fully focused and engaged in these segments will accelerate the process.

Edited February 16, 2016 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

They already have a V8, for their track focused car as it is.

 

I suspect it'll be a factory supercharged 5.0

 

You could not be more wrong about pony car sales - the Mustang has had a big boost on top of good sales from being a globally marketed car, unlike the Camaro. 

 

While I do envision the Camaro selling more pretty soon in America, in the rest of the world it's quite another story.

[ccap41]

My good friend that works at my local Ford dealer just sold their GT350 at MSRP. He told me they sold it to some guy from New Hampshire for just under 58k with whatever options it had but it was right at sticker price. He said they(the other salesmen) were disappointed because the store GM made the sale so none of them got to get a fat commission check.

[El Kabong]

They already have a V8, for their track focused car as it is.

I suspect it'll be a factory supercharged 5.0

You could not be more wrong about pony car sales - the Mustang has had a big boost on top of good sales from being a globally marketed car, unlike the Camaro.

While I do envision the Camaro selling more pretty soon in America, in the rest of the world it's quite another story.

Yes, it has that specialty V8... which helps drive the price of the car unacceptably high. We have been through this already. You can match the Camaro's price points or its performance. But not both. Another specialty V8 will not alleviate the problem, unless it produces about 700hp and can come in at, say, 65 grand. I am deeply skeptical.

I believe that globally Mustang gains somewhere in the four-figure range over and above NA sales. Which is not that good really. GM's Alpha platform moves more units, and at much higher price points. This is the kind of thing that can happen when your company's product strategy includes taking RWD seriously. Ford's didn't.

Edited February 16, 2016 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

My good friend that works at my local Ford dealer just sold their GT350 at MSRP. He told me they sold it to some guy from New Hampshire for just under 58k with whatever options it had but it was right at sticker price. He said they(the other salesmen) were disappointed because the store GM made the sale so none of them got to get a fat commission check.

I really don't expect to read about any more Shelbys going for over sticker. It's just not the kind of car that justifies such things.

[ccap41]

GMI interviewed Oppenheiser. He swore that they were trying to get the V8 1LE to come in under forty grand. If you figure that the 1SS starts at 37 and the Recaros can kinda be regarded as an upgrade as opposed to a standalone deal...

But the thing is: the Camaro isn't underpriced. The Shelby is overpriced. Part of this is just performance metrics and bang for the buck: the Shelby isn't all that quick for all that horsepower. Additionally, the Track Pack goodies are, again, optional. But beyond that, the Camaro must give some consideration to the Corvette and Cadillac ATS-V in the performance pecking order. It can't to TOO high in price, or it will cease to exist.

What constitutes as under or over priced? A base GT350 is what 50k? You get a completely redone suspension, the whole front end body work is different, obviously the engine is an exotic, and a transmission to match. It isn't like it is a GT with a 5.2 slapped under the hood. It's basically a different car because the GT is much softer designed to sell to a broader spectrum of people. 

 

The biggest difference between the 1LE and GT350 is the engine, and bodywork. Both have redone suspensions to make them more track capable.

[El Kabong]

So, what I would say here is: if the GT350 needs to be completely different forward of the A-pillar (engine, suspension, and all), and on a brand-new chassis no less...

Why not design it that way across the board and keep it from becoming nearly 60 grand? Because that's the strategy GM went with on the Camaro, and now they're talking up the possibility of a forty-grand Camaro that will do the same thing as that Shelby!

We can discuss this eight ways till Sunday. But the reality is that GM is just much better at leveraging its assets in this segment than Ford, because Ford has far fewer assets to leverage for RWD applications anymore. Even Mopar has better RWD options than Ford.

[ccap41]

You already have that answer.  It's a freaking got dang global car for f's sake.

 

You are as stubborn and blind as Wings was at times. You both compare Ford and GM like your own preference is God and everything else is junk, old, misplaced, poorly executed, and overpriced.

 

Mopar does not have better RWD applications than Ford. Mopar's RWD vehicles are 10 years old. And they have as many chassis as Ford, 1. Charger/Challenger/300. 

[El Kabong]

You already have that answer.  It's a freaking got dang global car for f's sake.

 

You are as stubborn and blind as Wings was at times. You both compare Ford and GM like your own preference is God and everything else is junk, old, misplaced, poorly executed, and overpriced.

 

Mopar does not have better RWD applications than Ford. Mopar's RWD vehicles are 10 years old. And they have as many chassis as Ford, 1. Charger/Challenger/300.

Nonsense.

The Mustang is no more a global car than the Camaro is. Just because Ford sells a few thousand RHD versions we are supposed to ignore the face that the Camaro probably sells an (equally paltry) numbers of RHD Camaros on the Continent?

And yes: Mopar's RWD options are better than Ford's. MOPAR, like GM, was smart in making sure that is has multiple brand lines on a common chassis. Dearborn, on the other hand, essentially has multiple platforms for a single car line!

It's not me being a fanboy. It's Ford being stupid.

[ccap41]

If that's what you tell yourself to sleep at night, fanboy.  

[El Kabong]

If that's what you tell yourself to sleep at night, fanboy.

Hey, if you want to root for a car that's only able to match a car that costs twenty grand less, you go right ahead.

I'll just stick with the cold hard facts.

[ccap41]

"cold hard facts" about a GM and Ford products...from you...?  I'll take most other resources for my "cold hard facts". They've proven to be the most accurate and reliable. Ya know, people who get paid to do the work rather than a fanboy on an internet forum. 

[El Kabong]

"cold hard facts" about a GM and Ford products...from you...?  I'll take most other resources for my "cold hard facts". They've proven to be the most accurate and reliable. Ya know, people who get paid to do the work rather than a fanboy on an internet forum.

Dood. You do whatever you want. I really, REALLY don't care. I just posted the article where Al Oppenheiser stated that he believes the 1LE will match the GT350. And while I don't recall whether price was included in the article I posted, you can poke around out there and find other sources who are tossing around a starting price of as low as forty grand.

If all you can do to counter my article is call me a fanboy then I've already won.

[G. David Felt]

If memory serves me correct is the Charger/Challenger/300 not built on last gen MB platform? So in this regards they probably are already better in many ways than Ford even for being 10 years old.

 

Both Ford and Mopar need to take a big step up to bring their A game to compete against the Cadillac Tuned, Corvette power trained Camaro.

[El Kabong]

The other thing about Mopar is that (in theory, for now) they have the Giulia platform coming down the pipe.

[oldshurst442]

Its all well and good to say that the Shelby's engine note is worth 10 grand all by itself.

The problem is that you potentially still have another ten grand to make up. Lest we forget, the C/D Shelby rang in at nearly 60 grand.

It's entirely possible that Ford sales guys will find folks who will belly up and pay over sticker for a car whose main selling points are a Honda-esque redline and being named after a dead guy.

But the smart money is on the Bowtie. It's a survival-of-the-fittest game, and right now Al Oppenheiser has the Darwin meter turned up to 11.

 

OK...

 

Smart money was on the Bow Tie in the 1990s too, but we all know how that turned out...

Ford dropped OHV in favor of OHC and even downsized cubic inches...

Ford introduced a car with movie ties who a dead man made famous...

Ford made a no-nonsense  race/track car with radio and back seat delete which was barely quicker than a Trans Am WS6...a Trans Am WS6 with leather and T-Tops...and somehow Ford kept on producing the Mustang while GM...

 

Also...listen to what Jay Leno says about this car...the GT350...R.

Listen to the whole video...

 

and especially listen to what he says @ 2:00

"I think this has the greatest engine currently built in America.....It truly is an amazing automobile."

 

@ 2:46

"This is a true sports car, now that is what makes it exciting"

 

@ 11:20

"And this is a car, I, its probably, I would call it a BMW fighter, I know a lot of guys that have the "M" Series come over -how many horsepower- they seem a little jealous makes it kind of fun!"

 

@ 15:42

Jay: "Cause I was trying to think this is probably, at least for 2015/16/17, one of the few normally aspirated V8s making this kind of horsepower isnt it? There really isnt anything out there anymore!"

 

Ford Guy: "We think we are the last 500 horsepower plus NATURALLY ASPIRATED V8 on the planet"

 

 

Before you say PR fluff because there was a Ford engineer there with him, he invites plenty of GM engineers when he does GM cars too...check out the  CTS-V  Jay Leno Garage video for proof.

Remember EL K...Jay Leno is a PURE enthusiast...he dont give a phoque where the car comes from...just as long its a unique enthusiast's car.

He sees the Mustang GT350...R for what it is...a TRUE SPORTS CAR...a EUROPEAN style SPORTS car with probably THE GREATEST ENGINE CURRENTLY BUILT in AMERICA with the ONLY one making 500 plus NATURALLY ASPIRATED horsepower!

 

All fine and dandy..the Camaro 1LE.

All fine and dandy its a formidable machine...it could take me to the moon and back. I would not have it...its FUGLY!!!

 

Ill take this GT350 any day of the week...its  unique...more so than the 1LE....the 1LE engine...well, I could restomod a 1969 Camaro and have me that small block Chevy under the hood...hell, I could LS swap a NISSAN or a Porsche and marvel at a Chevy Small Block!

 

 

 

But you know what EL K? NOBODY has got a 5.2 liter Flat Plane Crank V8 in ANY sports car....just that MUSTANG GT350R...

 

You know I respect you, but not when it comes to this kinds of stuff...

The GT350 is in a class all by itself...performance numbers BE DAMNED!!!

Edited February 16, 2016 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

So, what I would say here is: if the GT350 needs to be completely different forward of the A-pillar (engine, suspension, and all), and on a brand-new chassis no less...

Why not design it that way across the board and keep it from becoming nearly 60 grand? Because that's the strategy GM went with on the Camaro, and now they're talking up the possibility of a forty-grand Camaro that will do the same thing as that Shelby!

We can discuss this eight ways till Sunday. But the reality is that GM is just much better at leveraging its assets in this segment than Ford, because Ford has far fewer assets to leverage for RWD applications anymore. Even Mopar has better RWD options than Ford.

 

C'MON EL K...

 

You went from dissing the Ford Mustang GT350 and how to fix it to straight trolling Ford and their lack of RWD platforms...

You know...Wings is no longer posting here, there is no Ford PR fluff master to "put into place"...

 

MOPAR...you did mention the Giulia...HA! the Giulia is POSTPONED...

 

But...lets talk about MOPAR...

With an "old" platform, MOPAR still manages to keep the Challenger cool and hip. Even with Euro badge snobs, this car is revered...

 

Ford...albeit not in the point in time I was looking at the GT350 at the Montreal auto show...the GT350 EL K...lets get that clear...

Ford has made the GT350 into a lustful machine...Euro badge snobs look at it and wished their Euro trashed car was more like it...Jay Leno's words, not mine...and lets be honest...his circle of car guy friends sure makes yours and my car guy friends look like pansies...

 

Lets be honest about the Camaro...

Its a car with a CORVETTE engine under the hood.

Yeah...you think that is a good marketing angle?

Id rather just buy a Corvette and I could stop pretending owning a Corvette by driving a Camaro...

And I aint even gonna talk about the bag over the head looks its got...

 

You see EL K...I could troll Chevy just as good you try to troll Ford...

 

Now...you know I dont want to do that.

Edited February 16, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Stop trying to make my words fit your narrative.

You're the one who's gone back fifteen years to try and explain away the 1LE's price advantage for similar performance. I'm the one focused on the here and now, because it's the here and now that counts. You can't hang your hopes on a memory.

I've been quite clear about my belief that One Ford's lack of emphasis on RWD product is THE reason why they now have to charge extra dollars for similar performance or simply wave the white flag. This isn't just a matter of a product tweak here or ignoring an article there. It is a product strategy that is now institutionalized in Dearborn's mindset, and cannot be easily fixed. And the result is, and will continue to be, non-competitive product going forward.

It is telling that Leno drives the Shelby in isolation. Something tells me that folks less wealthy than Leno will be much more critical of the car when it is taken out of the bubble and asked to stand and deliver in the real world.

Serious question: if we go after smk for BMW's perceived overpricing and underachieving and nobody bats an eye, who are you or anyone else to call me out for doing the same thing, in another segment, to Ford?

[ccap41]

LOL @ "non-competitive product" (referring to the GT350/R) 

 

That right there is now I, and everybody else, can't take a damn word of yours serious when you start talking GM vs anything. 

[El Kabong]

LOL @ "non-competitive product" (referring to the GT350/R) 

 

That right there is now I, and everybody else, can't take a damn word of yours serious when you start talking GM vs anything.

"I just bought a Mustang for 57 grand that's no quicker around a course than a 42 grand Camaro!"

#fanboism

#badlifechoices

[oldshurst442]

LOL @ "non-competitive product" (referring to the GT350/R) 

 

That right there is now I, and everybody else, can't take a damn word of yours serious when you start talking GM vs anything. 

Yup!

 

The GT350 aint overpriced EL K...

 

That is you trying to shove Chevy over Ford in our faces...

 

YOU are NOT in the right here and now...because had you were...you would be a little more like Jay Leno regarding the GT350...and a little less self absorbed.

Yeah...the Camaro 1LE and a possible future Z/28 will eviscerate  ANY Mustang...

 

SO BLOODY WHAT?

 

Are you tracking them cars El K?

Because I know you cant track them on the street...

 

Jay Leno took out the Recaros on his personal GT350 and he put the standard GT seats in...

Why did he do that?

 

So he could ACTUALLY ENJOY the Mustang GT350 R...GT350R no less...on the street...and we know that Jay actually tracks cars too...and we know that he ENJOYS JUST DRIVING THEM!!!

 

Over priced?

Hell, if I ever bought a Turbo 4 cylinder Camaro at ONLY 26 000 dollars Id be OVER PAYING...'cause I KNOW ID WANT TO COMMIT SUICIDE EVERY TIME ID LOOK AT IT...

 

Oh...so you are talking about engineering...

Yeah...real clever for GM to take a platform from a Cadillac and make it into a Chevy...that is good...no trolling...

 

But Ford took a Flat Plane Crank approach for a V8 at 5.2 liters because...well...for the PHOQUE OF IT!!!

It works dude! And its well worth the price of admission...

 

For track days?

Yeah well, if I was tracking for money...Id buy myself a REAL track car....something that has no backseats, no radio, no AC...roll bars...no interior whatsoever...

 

Yeah...the interior would be something like that...so yeah...in other words...a Camaro 1LE with all that crap inside is MONEY WASTED...

Because...you know...unnecessary weight and all...

 

If I was cruising...you bet your ass it would be the GT350R...JUST FOR THE UNIQUE ENGINE SOUND...

 

So yeah EL K...sorry if I think your trolling is...trolling.

Edited February 16, 2016 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Like I said earlier: I don't care what you think about my posts. All I do is post the articles, throw out the quotes, and list the numbers. In this case the facts are pretty self-evident. You can yell, you can scream, you can cry and you can dream.

But right now it looks for all the world like GM is about to introduce a Camaro that will match a Shelby Mustang's track prowess while packing a FIVE FIGURE PRICE ADVANTAGE.

#goodnightdearborn

[oldshurst442]

About SMK....leave him out of this...he hasnt chimed in...

[El Kabong]

About SMK....leave him out of this...he hasnt chimed in...

You're missing the point. You're going to bat for the Mustang as bad as he goes to bat for Das Boots. And neither argument holds water.

Ccap himself has said that despite the Shelby name a local dealer just sold one for list. People aren't just lining up to say "take my money" anymore. They want steak, not sizzle. It matters not a jot if you can reach the limits of either on the street-you're paying for the POTENTIAL to be able to do something. And you're paying more for the same ability if you buy the Ford.

And the Ford just can't match the bang for the buck that Chevy offers. There. Is. No. Escaping. That.

[oldshurst442]

Like I said earlier: I don't care what you think about my posts. All I do is post the articles, throw out the quotes, and list the numbers. In this case the facts are pretty self-evident. You can yell, you can scream, you can cry and you can dream.

But right now it looks for all the world like GM is about to introduce a Camaro that will match a Shelby Mustang's track prowess while packing a FIVE FIGURE PRICE ADVANTAGE.

#goodnightdearborn

You aint doing that...

 

Besides...I could read.

Actually, I read THREE languages...there is no need for you to "point out" what was said...

 

What YOU are doing is EXACTLY what Wings was doing...

 

You cant see that?

Now...I aint about to let you go just because I like you and I did not like Wings...

Fair is fair...

 

You say the GT350 overpriced...great...dont buy one.

But...dont try to justify your biases to me...

 

This Mustang is not the 2005 Mustang where a few glaring mistakes were on it...

This 2016 Mustang GT350R is truly a special vehicle...and if Chevy keeps this up on its DULL Camaro...it will eventually die off again...

 

PERFORMANCE NUMBERS...EVEN on PERFORMANCE CARS are NOT the end all be all...

The Camaro...15 years ago...KILLED the Mustang in performance numbers...and we all know how that ended up...

 

The here and the now???

 

Yeah...you argue like Wings...expect me to argue with you like I did with him...

[El Kabong]

How is citing third-party articles and price reports thre same as being an Internet stalker who drops F-bombs on forum admin's he doesn't like?

Seriously

Edited February 16, 2016 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

 

About SMK....leave him out of this...he hasnt chimed in...

You're missing the point. You're going to bat for the Mustang as bad as he goes to bat for Das Boots. And neither argument holds water.

Ccap himself has said that despite the Shelby name a local dealer just sold one for list. People aren't just lining up to say "take my money" anymore. They want steak, not sizzle. It matters not a jot if you can reach the limits of either on the street-you're paying for the POTENTIAL to be able to do something. And you're paying more for the same ability if you buy the Ford.

And the Ford just can't match the bang for the buck that Chevy offers. There. Is. No. Escaping. That.

 

If Im going to bat for the Mustang as hard as he does for Das Boots...

Arent you going to bat for the Camaro as hard for Yankee Doodle Dandee?

 

But you are allowed to go ape for Yankee Doodle Dandee though...

How is citing third-party articles and price reports thre same as being an Internet stalker who drops F-bombs on forum admin's he doesn't like?

Seriously

Argument style...not what he actually does...

[El Kabong]

Nonsense.

I root for winners. And right now GM is winning. Do you ever remember me saying a kind word about the last Malibu? No. Have you been around long enough to remember me making Monte Carlo jokes even as I helped make them?

GM is putting in the effort. There is no more "wait'll next year" or "back in the day..."

They are winning TODAY. And today is all that matters.

[oldshurst442]

If you rooted for winners...you'd be a Mustang fan today, as the Mustang cleaned the Camaro's clock in 2002...

Sales wise...

 

And quite honestly, in the corporate world....IE the real world, THAT is the ONLY thing that counts.

 

EL K....GM is making fan-phoking-tastic cars today...but...on the Camaro...lets be honest...its kinda on the bland side.

 

OK...so its got a Corvette engine, and it handles better than a Porsche because the chassis is sublime...OK

 

But does it got the "cool" factor?

I dont think it does....

 

Honestly...Id rather the Corvette. It does everything the Camaro does...even if a 1LE might do it better than a base Stingray. The Vette....its cool. The Camaro...1LE or Z/28...looks like its trying real hard to fit in....somewhere in between a Mustang GT350 and bigger brother Corvette...

 

And...if a Z/28 wants to approach 700...that DEFINITELY tells me that Camaro is trying real hard to be liked. 

The Camaro does not have Megan Fox semi-naked anymore to up sell it...The big bad robots are getting stale.

 

In the meantime...Ill enjoy Hell on wheels  called the Hellcat a tad more...with the Ferrari like hypnotic sounds of the GT350...because if I wanted to listen to the Detroit Motown sound Chevy Small Block V8...there is the Vette for that...

[El Kabong]

You lost me when you said the current Camaro was on the bland side.

If it was so bland then why do you freak on it so bad for looking like a Transformer?

Sorry. GM has the means, they have the motivation, and they do not appear to be letting up. I get that it's almost unfair to the competition, but that's not my concern.

[oldshurst442]

It is buddy...

Very blah!

 

Just like the 2010 model...nothing has changed on it...

What? Round front fenders as opposed to a straight slab?

 

So it saw Jenny Craig...

You see...

 

1969 Camaro

 

2010 Camaro

 

2015 Camaro ILE or Z/28

 

2016 Alpha Camaro

http://www.today.com/health/kirstie-alley-talks-50-pound-weight-loss-time-its-different-1D80404553

 

Kirstie Alley talks 50-pound weight loss: 'This time it's different'

 

[surreal1272]

 

 

About SMK....leave him out of this...he hasnt chimed in...

You're missing the point. You're going to bat for the Mustang as bad as he goes to bat for Das Boots. And neither argument holds water.

Ccap himself has said that despite the Shelby name a local dealer just sold one for list. People aren't just lining up to say "take my money" anymore. They want steak, not sizzle. It matters not a jot if you can reach the limits of either on the street-you're paying for the POTENTIAL to be able to do something. And you're paying more for the same ability if you buy the Ford.

And the Ford just can't match the bang for the buck that Chevy offers. There. Is. No. Escaping. That.

 

If Im going to bat for the Mustang as hard as he does for Das Boots...

Arent you going to bat for the Camaro as hard for Yankee Doodle Dandee?

 

But you are allowed to go ape for Yankee Doodle Dandee though...

How is citing third-party articles and price reports thre same as being an Internet stalker who drops F-bombs on forum admin's he doesn't like?

Seriously

Argument style...not what he actually does...

 

No offense but what he did was his "argument style". When he loses and argument, he slams everyone who disagrees and insults mods when they don't support him. Despite the fanboyism, Bong has not ever done what Wings did (the mod insults and such). It's a severe exaggeration to connect those two because of mere "fanboyism".

 

Just my two cents.

 

Carry on.

It is buddy...

Very blah!

 

Just like the 2010 model...nothing has changed on it...

What? Round front fenders as opposed to a straight slab?

 

So it saw Jenny Craig...

You see...

 

1969 Camaro

 

2010 Camaro

 

2015 Camaro ILE or Z/28

 

2016 Alpha Camaro

http://www.today.com/health/kirstie-alley-talks-50-pound-weight-loss-time-its-different-1D80404553

 

Kirstie Alley talks 50-pound weight loss: 'This time it's different'

 

Not one piece of sheetmetal is shared between the two cars Olds. We get it though. You will never like the way it looks because of a stupid movie.

[El Kabong]

It's no big deal. The facts bear out the advantage GM has in the segment. That's all I need. The rest is just sound and fury.

[oldshurst442]

It's no big deal. The facts bear out the advantage GM has in the segment. That's all I need. The rest is just sound and fury.

Need for what?

 

Your bench seat racing? Your arm chair shenanigans?

You know, the kind that adolescent boys do when they look at stats...

 

I invite you once more to listen to Jay's commentary on the GT350...R.

 

because according to that cool cat...the GT350R is an AMAZING vehicle...so...I guess that is all that is needed for Ford too...

[El Kabong]

...and I can guarantee when the time comes he will also gush over the Camaro, as well as mention the value for the price. Because The 1LE is just that good.