GM facility revved up for ethanol future

[Cadillacfan]

Facility revved up for ethanol future

Flex-fuel version now accounts for 15% of output but E85 remains difficult to obtain in state

By MATT GLYNN

News Business Reporter

5/10/2006

With gasoline prices holding at about $3 per gallon, vehicles that run on alternative fuels are looking more attractive to drivers. That's good news for the General Motors Powertrain plant in the Town of Tonawanda.

The engine plant has churned out 170,000 engines during the last year capable of running on E85 ethanol, a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.

Building the "flex-fuel" engine is a tribute to the productivity ratings of the plant, which employs about 2,500 people. And with interest in alternative fuels growing, being one of the GM plants that makes the new engines adds to the Tonawanda site's stability.

"Our competitive situation enabled us to get this engine," said John Crabtree, general manager of the plant, during a Tuesday event highlighting the plant's role in E85 vehicles.

continue reading article...

[Mr.Krinkle]

"One of the big advantages, of course, is this fuel can't be embargoed," Crabtree said. "We grow it right here, so there a lot of advantages in self-sustainability."

a big ol' F-you to oil.

i understand its in its infancy still, but i cant for any reason see why this fuel isnt more widespread.

[Cadillacfan]

Because the big-oil companies are keeping it from spreading.

The E85 refineries are few and far between and they would like to keep it that way mostly because it would take a chunk out of their profits.

Unless they start buying up corn-fields, the Oil companies are going to do everything in their power to stay ahead of the game.

[Brandon Lutz]

Here is another interesting article on E85. Note how an oil exec tries to strong arm the guy in the story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

The key to keeping Ethanol as a vialble alternative is to keep big oil out of it. It has already started. Big Oil is trying to smother or take control already.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Brandon Lutz

[Clownzilla]

"One of the big advantages, of course, is this fuel can't be embargoed," Crabtree said. "We grow it right here, so there a lot of advantages in self-sustainability."

a big ol' F-you to oil.

i understand its in its infancy still, but i cant for any reason see why this fuel isnt more widespread.

If GM and Ford can get together on this, you will see E85 spread out more. Although, I don't care if your Democrat or Republican, I think there are way too many politicians with deep oil pockets. Getting the government to help us will be a gigantic hurdle. What we need is a politician run for a high post that has one agenda in mind "Make E85 the standard".

[zhawk]

I saw on the news last night that an E85 refinery is going to be built in Aberdeen, Washington. Maybe we'll start seeing it available here.

[Cortazzo]

If they open an e85 station within 10 miles of my house I'd happily trade in for a flex fuel vehicle and flip the bird to these unstable oil producing nations like Iran and Venezuela. I think the best solution would be for Ford and GM to make a deal with the government, where they get an X year tax break in return for 80-100% flexfuel vehicle production. If nearly half of all new cars being sold are flexfuel, a lot of station owners would sign up for e85 i bet.

[Camino LS6]

What if you could fill-up at your local GM dealership? :AH-HA_wink:

[jry]

i am all for this. the politicos need to drop the tariffs on sugar as it produces 4 times the amount of ethanol when compared to corn. shoot you can make the stuff from prairie grass, orange skins and weeds as well. walmart has said that they will have an e 85 pump at all of their stations. all big oil needs to do is start refining ethanol and they can stay in the game. the only down side is a little less mileage. btw, why doesn't someone sell a mod kit for the most popular cars on the road that could easily convert to ethanol?

[BuddyP]

i am all for this. the politicos need to drop the tariffs on sugar as it produces 4 times the amount of ethanol when compared to corn. shoot you can make the stuff from prairie grass, orange skins and weeds as well. walmart has said that they will have an e 85 pump at all of their stations.  all big oil needs to do is start refining ethanol and they can stay in the game. the only down side is a little less mileage. btw, why doesn't someone sell a mod kit for the most popular cars on the road that could easily convert to ethanol?

There is some kits out there but they cost around $700-$800.

[ellives]

Call your congressmen and TELL them they better support and promote the widespread deployment of ethanol or they're out! It's high time ExxonMobil was knocked off their fat assed pedestal.

(Oh yeah and "Boycott ExxonMobil")

Did you know that Brazil is imported-oil-free this year because THEY are selling E-85 everywhere down there?

[toesuf94]

I live in the E-85 capital of the world - Cedar Rapids, Iowa...I have an Ethanol facility right out my window...yet I have to drive 30 minutes to buy E-85 and the ONE PUMP in town selling it is charging a premium for it...turning off consumers all over town...sad. I would buy it if it was cheaper - offsetting the mileage losses...but come on! 3 cents less per gallon than 89 octane with 15% ethanol at any pump in town...big oil needs to be taken off of the pedestal, the farmers need to start growing corn instead of being in subsidized CRP programs, and we need to start drilling for our own oil here in the US and make this country reliant on no one but ourselves!

[Clownzilla]

I live in the E-85 capital of the world - Cedar Rapids, Iowa...I have an Ethanol facility right out my window...yet I have to drive 30 minutes to buy E-85 and the ONE PUMP in town selling it is charging a premium for it...turning off consumers all over town...sad.  I would buy it if it was cheaper - offsetting the mileage losses...but come on!  3 cents less per gallon than 89 octane with 15% ethanol at any pump in town...big oil needs to be taken off of the pedestal, the farmers need to start growing corn instead of being in subsidized CRP programs, and we need to start drilling for our own oil here in the US and make this country reliant on no one but ourselves!

Once enough business' get on the E85 tidal wave, then good ol American competition will not allow a gas station to charge a premium.

[jry]

Call your congressmen and TELL them they better support and promote the widespread deployment of ethanol or they're out! It's high time ExxonMobil was knocked off their fat assed pedestal.

(Oh yeah and "Boycott ExxonMobil")

Did you know that Brazil is imported-oil-free this year because THEY are selling E-85 everywhere down there?

brazil is not oil free. they are foreign oil independant. e 85 requires 15% oil.

[haypops]

brazil is not oil free. they are foreign oil independant. e 85 requires 15% oil.

Also they use 100% petroleum for a few moths out of year.

Brazil has a longer growing seaon then we do, they have more cultivable land than we do, and much less demand. If we do somehow go to an ethanol based economy, you won't be able to afford beef.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i dont think we want to be entirely oil free, i dont even think thats possible.

with cars and trucks yes but not every facet of industry.

the point is that if we could significantly reduce reliance on foreign oil wed be better off. not complete removal just enought o make a difference.

20% might even be enough to start. anything to reduce demand.

600 e85 stations is hardly making a dent.

[thedriver]

I have never seen this addressed anywhere, so this seems as good a place as any to ask. Why E-85? Why not E-50 or some other combination? Is there some sort of magic number? Don't you think offering different blend levels might help spread the product and vehicles able to use it?

[Mr.Krinkle]

i believe because its 15% gas/petrol

so the E. is 85%

[carstar]

i believe because its 15% gas/petrol

so the E. is 85%

that's right.

so how about E-90? = 10% gas.

[ellives]

Call your congressmen and TELL them they better support and promote the widespread deployment of ethanol or they're out! It's high time ExxonMobil was knocked off their fat assed pedestal.

(Oh yeah and "Boycott ExxonMobil")

Did you know that Brazil is imported-oil-free this year because THEY are selling E-85 everywhere down there?

brazil is not oil free. they are foreign oil independant. e 85 requires 15% oil.

Note I never said Brazil was oil free. I said "imported-oil-free."

[thedriver]

Heh, I KNOW that

I was just wondering, why no E-50?

[Mr.Krinkle]

okay, it still has to combust. im not a rocket scientist so i cant really explain all the physics involved but the petrol provides a sufficient amount of combustibility.

any less it wouldnt work as well. why use more gas if you dont have to.

they seem to have worked out the ratio to 85% 15% so i guess then that would in effect be a magic number.

[greg_nate]

What if you could fill-up at your local GM dealership? :AH-HA_wink:

Actually, that's a brilliant idea.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

US doesnt have enough farmland to supply the country with ethanol. and it wouldnt be cost effective to even attempt to try that anyways.

E15 would be more fesible. IMO

:edit: thats not my sig is it? i dont ever remember doing that

Edited May 12, 2006 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ You probably did that on April Fool's Day...

[ellives]

Really? How did you come to this conclusion? Lot's of people said the world was flat too.

US doesnt have enough farmland to supply the country with ethanol. and it wouldnt be cost effective to even attempt to try that anyways.

E15 would be more fesible. IMO

:edit: thats not my sig is it? i dont ever remember doing that

[haypops]

Really? How did you come to this conclusion? Lot's of people said the world was flat too.

The shortage of land is a given.

"Where have al the flowers gone? Gone to soliders every one.  Where has all the arable land gone? Gone to Malls and suburban tract homes, every one."

[ellives]

You're kidding right? The US government pays LOTS of farmers NOT to grow certain crops. Do you work for ExxonMobil?

The shortage of  land is a given.

[Cortazzo]

We use e85 because 100 percent ethanol would have difficulty lighting during the winter months in norther states. Brazil on the other hand offers 100% ethanol, because they don't get nearly as cold winters as we do in the northern US.

I was watching Meet the Press the other day and they were talking about oil and such. The democrat on the panel, dick durban from Ill was pro ethanol, but refused to consider dropping the tariff on imported ethanol to protect the nascent domestic industry. I don't think the politicians promote ethanol as a way to wean us off oil, they just do it to give money to their farmer constituents in the midwest.

Considering that, I still think it's a great way to promote domestic fuel sources, and combined with biodiesel which i hope gains just as much publicity and growth as ethanol, can go a long way towards shrinking our imported oil usage.

Also considering that, only 50% of all oil in the US goes towards gasoline, the other half goes to heating oil and chemical usage in things like plastics and other synthetic materials. And oppossing popular belief, i think only 7% of our electrical power comes from oil fired generators, during the 70s oil crisis we basically converted to mostly coal, with a significant nuclear presence as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

There isn't enough land in the US for ethanol if you only base the ethanol production on corn. Sugar, switch grass, potatoes and hops.... another matter entirely.

[dcs]

The USA produces 40 percent of their oil requirements domestically now(this includes the gulf drilling).

So there is no reason not to be self sufficient.

A strong government action plan is needed....now to get this up and running.

[mustang84]

Our oil dollars are supporting projects in the Middle Eastern city of Dubai like:

Rooftop tennis courts

Indoor ski slopes in the middle of the desert

And insanely tall skyscraper proposals

Under the enlightened despotism of its Crown Prince and CEO, 56-year-old Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, the Rhode-Island-sized Emirate of Dubai has become the new global icon of imagineered urbanism.

Moreover, Dubai can count on the peak-oil epoch to cover the costs of these hyperboles. Each time you spent $40 to fill your tank, you are helping to irrigate Sheik Mo's oasis.

Al-Qaeda and the war on terrorism deserve some of the credit for this boom. Since 9/11, many Middle Eastern investors, fearing possible lawsuits or sanctions, have pulled up stakes in the West. According to Salman bin Dasmal of Dubai Holdings, the Saudis alone have repatriated one-third of their trillion-dollar overseas portfolio. The sheikhs are bringing it back home, and last year, the Saudis were believed to have ploughed at least $7 billion into Dubai's sand castles.

Another aqueduct of oil wealth flows from the neighboring Emirate of Abu Dhabi. The two statelets dominate the United Arab Emirates -- a quasi-nation thrown together by Sheik Mo's father and the ruler of Abu Dhabi in 1971 to fend off threats from Marxists in Oman and, later, Islamists in Iran.

I'm all for E85!

[haypops]

There isn't enough land in the US for ethanol if you only base the ethanol production on corn. Sugar, switch grass, potatoes and hops.... another matter entirely.

I am a little curious as to your scientific or economic basis for this. Corn, biochemicaly, is refered to as a c-4 plant. All photosynthetic plants are classified as C4 or C3 with the C$ plants being more efficient. So at least from this one aspect corn would be a better choice than potatoes for instance. Do you know of any land use benefit or difference that potatoes have over corn? One possibility would be a shorter or different growing season. Radishes for instance are one of the first groups farmers plant in the spring because of their cold tolerance. I am not aware of potatoes sharing in this characteritic but I could be wrong. In a previous post I suggested dandellions but no one expressed interest. How about Russian dandelions?

[ellives]

I believe the general feeling of the community working on ethanol is that there are a number of products and by-products that could be used as sources for ethanol. Either on the 60 minutes piece or the NBC piece they mentioned things like prairie grass, orange peels and even wood pulp.

I think the point was that anything that is grown has the potential to be a source for ethanol. Maybe this was just the media being biased as usual but it wasn't that long ago people supposedly in the know (big oil companies?) claimed ethanol was not viable because it took more energy to produce it than it yielded.

I am a little curious as to your scientific or economic basis for this.  Corn, biochemicaly, is refered to as a c-4 plant.  All photosynthetic plants are classified as C4 or C3 with the C$ plants being more efficient. So at least from this one aspect corn would be a better choice than potatoes for instance. Do you know of any land use benefit or difference that potatoes have over corn?  One possibility would be a shorter or different growing season.  Radishes for instance are one of the first groups farmers plant in the spring because of their cold tolerance.  I am not aware of potatoes sharing in this characteritic but I could be wrong. In a previous post I suggested dandellions but no one expressed interest.  How about Russian dandelions?

[haypops]

I believe the general feeling of the community working on ethanol is that there are a number of products and by-products that could be used as sources for ethanol. Either on the 60 minutes piece or the NBC piece they mentioned things like prairie grass, orange peels and even wood pulp.

"The  community working on ethanol" or any other community working on naything gets a one demsesnional view of things.  Orange peel is vry valuable for its essential oil production.  A similar product from lemons is so valuable that the peel oil is the primary economic product and the juice you buy in the supermarket is secondary to the profit stream.  Last time I checked (many years ago) this oil was going for $2500 a barallel.  That makes petroleum at $75 look like small potatoes.

I think the point was that anything that is grown has the potential to be a source for ethanol. Maybe this was just the media being biased as usual but it wasn't that long ago people supposedly in the know (big oil companies?) claimed ethanol was not viable because it took more energy to produce it than it yielded.

Probably not more, but the energy inputs are considerable. There is diesel fuel to run the tractors, electricity to power irrigation pups, and lots of petruleum to produce the fertilizer

I don't mean to be so negative. It is great that we are discuuisng these things. It is just that it is so much harder to do than people assume. We can take little bites off the edges haer and there and the sooner the better. Passive and active solar energy use can free some petroleum products from use in non automotive uses and make more fuel available for our cars. Reduced vehicle weight and wind resistance as in the new Tahoes can help. A return to lower speed limits as during the Carter years is necessary too. Diesel and/or direct ignition engines is doable. Finally I was kigging about dandelions.

[Iononic Boy]

Probably not more, but the energy inputs are considerable.  There is diesel fuel to run the tractors, electricity to power irrigation pups, and lots of petruleum to produce the fertilizer

I don't mean to be so negative.  It is great that we are discuuisng these things.  It is just that it is so much harder to do than people assume.  We can take little bites off the edges haer and there and the sooner the better.  Passive and active solar energy use can free some petroleum products from use in non automotive uses and make more fuel available for our cars.  Reduced vehicle weight and wind resistance as in the new Tahoes can help.  A return to lower speed limits as during the Carter years is necessary too. Diesel and/or direct ignition engines is doable. Finally I was kigging about dandelions.

Sorry but everyone will still speed. I do now, and I still would. Lowering the speed limit would not be a good solution. It didn't work back then, it won't work now. Making cars more efficient at any speed is a better answer. Also driver characterisitcs. I love the 10-20 mph up and down drivers. 60 one min 75 the next 62 ,79,67,71, pass, slow, speed up, cant follow a regular driving pattern. that I think wastes more gas braking and revving to gain speed then me going 80 the whole time. apparently the lady on the phone in her X5 that was all over the road on the way to work today hasnt discovered her cruise control yet.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Iononic Boy

[haypops]

apparently the lady on the phone in her X5 that was all over the road on the way to work today hasnt discovered her cruise control yet.

Maybe the X5 has a motorcycle like cruise control where the throttle is held constant rather than the vehicle speed.

[haypops]

questions and answers about ethanol as a fuel