Chevrolet News:Chevrolet Prices 2016 Malibu Hybrid: Begins At $28,645*

[Suaviloquent]

So it's ridiculous to talk about a car's supposed value proposition when this thread is about it's price in the competitive marketplace?

 

And surely if I recall correctly that I didn't go too much into some tangents about CAFE strategy and other automakers that simply don't compete with models against this car.

 

I kept it about the vehicle itself and its merits. No one has yet to give me a good reason why anyone should buy this vehicle knowing the advantages of minutely better efficiency at a significantly larger upfront cost.

 

I even provided one avenue of success - to sell this car to potential Volt buyers that would never charge the car. All I see is Chevy slicing the pie into smaller chunks rather than enlarging it.

[El Kabong]

The car is a good car. The hybrid appears to produce the expected efficiency numbers. If people want to pay more at the dealership so they can pay less at the pumps then they will. I know these people exist, because I am one of them.

Also, it looks a lot better than the last one.

[hyperv6]

So it's ridiculous to talk about a car's supposed value proposition when this thread is about it's price in the competitive marketplace?

 

And surely if I recall correctly that I didn't go too much into some tangents about CAFE strategy and other automakers that simply don't compete with models against this car.

 

I kept it about the vehicle itself and its merits. No one has yet to give me a good reason why anyone should buy this vehicle knowing the advantages of minutely better efficiency at a significantly larger upfront cost.

 

I even provided one avenue of success - to sell this car to potential Volt buyers that would never charge the car. All I see is Chevy slicing the pie into smaller chunks rather than enlarging it.

 

 

Look you are just wanting to pick a fight and I am not bitting.

 

The issue I pointed out is clear that this is a big picture deal and you only want to see what is in front of you.  Hard to debate with someone who only wants to consider the narrow perspective when much more is in play.

​I posted the big picture and why this car should do well for GM and help keep them in the game. You disagree while leaving out most considerations in play. The folks here can decide for themselves and I am sure the sales will determine who is on the right path.

 

The path to the future will hold many options as there is at this point not one thing that will get us to 53 MPG by 2025 and higher later on. GM and most other MFG's are following many options to fit most needs. I even forgot the Hydrogen push with GM and Honda working together now. Having driven these technologies and followed them they all have positives and negatives as to peoples lifestyle. The one that fits the person will be the one that fits their life style the best. Some have no issue charging 8 hours some do. Some want extenders some don't. Some just was gas or Diesel and some don't. This is not just a single minded solution to a no longer single minded market.

​My post is there and if you want to argue find narrow mind. I know we have one or two others here for you to play with on your own terms.  

[hyperv6]

The car is a good car. The hybrid appears to produce the expected efficiency numbers. If people want to pay more at the dealership so they can pay less at the pumps then they will. I know these people exist, because I am one of them.

Also, it looks a lot better than the last one.

 

The one consideration you left out are the tree huggers who buy based on carbon footprint. I used to write these people off but anymore they are becoming a bigger and bigger factor in marketing products. Most are regional. on the coast but they have been growing in number and have accounted for many of the Toyota Prius and Hybrid sales.

​It is not a factor most of use enthusiast really dwell on but it is in play. Even the investment automakers are doing in solar and wind additions to their plants are being marketed to these people to promote a positive image for their consideration. Kids have been getting hit with this for years at School and many are now just becoming new car buyers.

​They may be green but so is their money. Today no potential customer can be over looked in this very completive auto market today.

[hyperv6]

Another reason the Malibu hybrid may do better than many think.  The base engine is only moderate performance.  The hybrid is a way to step up in acceleration but not spend to go all the way up to the 2.0.  Its like a defacto midlevel engine choice.

 

The key to many of these new technologies is to make them work as well as the original ICE engine or in some areas better. For too long EV cars were life style changing cars where you had to plan your life around the range and or recharging. Most people do not have the time or patients to deal with that. They want refuel times to match a tank of gas and keep going. Lets face it if it were up to most men on a long trip they would piss in a bottle and keep going if not for the need for fuel.

 

Same for performance some may be ok with some compromise but many will welcome an additions boost of power or performance over a smaller engine with no additional support.

 

The first company that makes a car with great performance numbers. The range of a tank of fuel 450-500 miles, and the ability to refuel in less than 10 min, while returning ungodly MPG numbers in a attractive package will win this game. Most have hit on some of this but not all. and then price also is a big consideration. There still a lot of work to be done  but unlike the past at least there is now investment in this segment where there was little before.

[Drew Dowdell]

Even the old eAssist was a step up from the base 4-cylinder in performance.  It had an extra grunt at low RPM that the regular Ecotec didn't.  With more powerful electronics in this Hybrid, I expect it will be an even larger distinction. 

[Suaviloquent]

This entire time, I have never said this car will not sell. I have never said it wasn't good. 

 

Well, I'll be old hat and watch hybrid sales eat at each other rather than outpacing the growth of vehicles that aren't nearly as efficient.

 

And I'm certainly not going to gorge upon every opportunity to praise GM or any brand in particular. 

 

The point still stands. If you want to save money, getting the latest and greatest doesn't always work. You can get other hybrids which are just as competent family haulers for less even though they are slightly less efficient. But with the marginal increases in FE and fuel savings not being as big with higher mpgs, you'll have to sit on this car for too long.

 

But I'm narrow-minded because I certainly have never praised this vehicle or that it's a great car, but you're not missing by going elsewhere. Heck, you gain in savings. 

 

If hybrids are not about saving money, then that just defeats the purpose. 

[hyperv6]

This entire time, I have never said this car will not sell. I have never said it wasn't good. 

 

Well, I'll be old hat and watch hybrid sales eat at each other rather than outpacing the growth of vehicles that aren't nearly as efficient.

 

And I'm certainly not going to gorge upon every opportunity to praise GM or any brand in particular. 

 

The point still stands. If you want to save money, getting the latest and greatest doesn't always work. You can get other hybrids which are just as competent family haulers for less even though they are slightly less efficient. But with the marginal increases in FE not being as big with higher mpgs, you'll have to sit on this car for too long.

 

But I'm narrow-minded because I certainly have never praised this vehicle or that it's a great car, but you're not missing by going elsewhere. Heck, you gain in savings. 

 

If hybrids are not about saving money, then that just defeats the purpose. 

 

 

 

Even the old eAssist was a step up from the base 4-cylinder in performance.  It had an extra grunt at low RPM that the regular Ecotec didn't.  With more powerful electronics in this Hybrid, I expect it will be an even larger distinction. 

 

All these systems are stepping stones as each generation makes gains. These are technologies that have had to be put in play to make it so companies outside GM would invest to make better systems and more advances.

 

Kind of like LG and batteries. If GM did not make the Volt there was a snowballs chance anyone would have invested in the battery for a car that was not going to market.

 

This is kind of like the space program where the goal was to make it to the moon but the real mission was to simulate the companies into making and building technology for it that could be transferred to other things. This is a slow grow and low profit deal now but as time and technology grows it will make thing better, cheaper and profitable. Most new technologies are like that. Even the first home computers really did not make money and did not really work all that great.

[ocnblu]

Gasoline is predicted to be priced in the low two dollar range for the next 46 years.  What we need is a Malibu with CTS-V power, and a price tag of $28,644.

Edited December 14, 2015 by ocnblu

[regfootball]

That means also Reg...that you dont care for Ferarris, Lambos, Bentleys...and even Cadilllacs...as those cars are not in the 30 000 dollar price range...

 

And I dont know you long enough to have read your other posts in Cheers and Gears...but if you have given ANY level of enthusiasm for ANY car above 30 000 dollars...that would make you a hypocrite...

 

A Tesla Model S is not meant for the masses...a Tesla is meant for somebody who has the means to buy one...

Just like how the first and second and third and even fourth generations of the automobile 120 some odd years ago...

 

Its a LUXURY STATUS symbol....just like a Cadillac...even a Buick...hell...even an Oldsmobile in 2004..

 

What Im trying to say is that...its a pretty crummy reason to hate on Tesla just because you camt afford one...sour grapes on your part...

it's not hate, its more like they don't match the hype.

[regfootball]

 

Another reason the Malibu hybrid may do better than many think.  The base engine is only moderate performance.  The hybrid is a way to step up in acceleration but not spend to go all the way up to the 2.0.  Its like a defacto midlevel engine choice.

 

Chevy isn't the first to do that. The Camry hybrid and Accord Hybrid (now defunct) run 0-60 in the low 7s.

 

But I'll never understand the hyprocrisy of quoting a hybrid for brisk acceleration that only degrades it's true metric of performance of intended function - efficiency.

 

a hybrid with good performance, though, helps justify the higher sticker.  If you price the hybrid like they are and its as slow as the base car or even slower, then for sure its gonna sit on lots.

[oldshurst442]

AT REG...

 

The Tesla Model S does not match the hype?

 

Id like to hear from you how the Tesla Model S does not match the hype.

 

 

Because from where Im sitting, the Model S not only matches the hype...it far exceeds it....from countless points of view...

 

1. start up company that has set the whole world on fire in less than a decade

2. with a car that has the major automobile companies of the world chasing the Model S...proof?

The Porsche EV sedan that is set to arrive 2-3-4-5 years from now...

The State Michigan re-inventing fascism to fit our democratic lifestyle to prevent Tesla's business model to become successful...our way or the highway disguised...

3. The Model S...a first real attempt to engineer an EV platform from scratch...

Hiccups along the way...yeah...a few...comparable to the hiccups that seasoned veterans have...veterans that have been in the business for 100 years and then some...not barely 10.......there is one less zero at the end of that number one you know...

4. The Model S achieves great performance numbers in whatever category you want numbers to be compared...

Speed, acceleration, mileage for EVs....it is the leader in electronic range....and it is the fastest sedan...maybe a Hellcat...but definitely no Porsche or M-B or BMW sedans beat it...and that Hellcat...it took another ballsy AMERICAN car company to outdo the muscle car formula to achieve this with a 6.2 lite superchatged V8 worth 707 horsepower...the most horsepower ever offered in a production sedan...

5. Meaning....it has schooled the veterans in how to actually engineer a proper EV...

6. The Model S...its a stunning design...the Fisker Karma is just unbelievably  out of this world....but the Model S has that elegant, sexy, rich and luxurious design with the right amount of curves in the right places to make it a better looking vehicle than any other in its price range...excluding the aforementioned  Fisker Karma...and the Model S still looks good 3-4 years later...and...its sales are not dipping...but INCREASING...

 

I could go on...but at 6...I think Ive proven my point of view that the Model S exceeds expectations...

 

How 'bout yours?

 

PS: QUALITY OF MATERIALS BETTER NOT BE ON YOUR LIST...

why?

 

Kinda like a Corvette...the money you are spending on a Model S or a Corvette...obviously a C6 rather than the C7...is for the engineering involved...high tech engineering...

 

You want an interior that is better...be prepared to spend more money...

 

Impossible for you...you want high tech shyte, state of the art at 30 000...

It seems to me you are more of a dreamer than a hater...so Ill apologize for calling you a hater...Ill start calling you a dreamer instead...

Edited December 14, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Suaviloquent]

 

This entire time, I have never said this car will not sell. I have never said it wasn't good. 

 

Well, I'll be old hat and watch hybrid sales eat at each other rather than outpacing the growth of vehicles that aren't nearly as efficient.

 

And I'm certainly not going to gorge upon every opportunity to praise GM or any brand in particular. 

 

The point still stands. If you want to save money, getting the latest and greatest doesn't always work. You can get other hybrids which are just as competent family haulers for less even though they are slightly less efficient. But with the marginal increases in FE not being as big with higher mpgs, you'll have to sit on this car for too long.

 

But I'm narrow-minded because I certainly have never praised this vehicle or that it's a great car, but you're not missing by going elsewhere. Heck, you gain in savings. 

 

If hybrids are not about saving money, then that just defeats the purpose. 

 

 

 

Even the old eAssist was a step up from the base 4-cylinder in performance.  It had an extra grunt at low RPM that the regular Ecotec didn't.  With more powerful electronics in this Hybrid, I expect it will be an even larger distinction. 

 

All these systems are stepping stones as each generation makes gains. These are technologies that have had to be put in play to make it so companies outside GM would invest to make better systems and more advances.

 

Kind of like LG and batteries. If GM did not make the Volt there was a snowballs chance anyone would have invested in the battery for a car that was not going to market.

 

This is kind of like the space program where the goal was to make it to the moon but the real mission was to simulate the companies into making and building technology for it that could be transferred to other things. This is a slow grow and low profit deal now but as time and technology grows it will make thing better, cheaper and profitable. Most new technologies are like that. Even the first home computers really did not make money and did not really work all that great.

 

 

Yet still you're avoiding my main point. 

 

So you mean people should be willfully blind and buy a vehicle even though it doesn't actually save money over competitors when that's the main purpose - to keep operational costs to an absolute minimum?

 

I'm a ruthless consumer and I expect the very best. There would be no problems with the value equation if this Malibu was priced the same as a Fusion or Camry hybrid.

 

Same as the Accord Hybrid and its dubious value.

 

And how will the future of this vehicle get to the moon? The best markets for hybrids in the U.S. have already set 2050 as the year to ban any vehicle with an ICE. I understand this decision was made long after the development of this vehicle was done. But it's just another problem for hybrids - like gas cars, their days are also numbered.

 

If this there was an electric Malibu, that'd be a real breakthrough - a clean sedan, not some plump toaster that is the industry standard for the affordable electric car.

[hyperv6]

Gasoline is predicted to be priced in the low two dollar range for the next 46 years.  What we need is a Malibu with CTS-V power, and a price tag of $28,644.

 

If you believe that can I interest you in a Bridge in NYC? They say it is popular and I can give you a real good deal.

​Blu we are just one major middle east conflict away from prices spiking over night. The Saud get bombed and their oil gets cut off or invaded by Iran the price on globally traded oil commodities would go crazy.

​I hope you are joking on the BU. I know you are smarter than that.

[hyperv6]

 

 

This entire time, I have never said this car will not sell. I have never said it wasn't good. 

 

Well, I'll be old hat and watch hybrid sales eat at each other rather than outpacing the growth of vehicles that aren't nearly as efficient.

 

And I'm certainly not going to gorge upon every opportunity to praise GM or any brand in particular. 

 

The point still stands. If you want to save money, getting the latest and greatest doesn't always work. You can get other hybrids which are just as competent family haulers for less even though they are slightly less efficient. But with the marginal increases in FE not being as big with higher mpgs, you'll have to sit on this car for too long.

 

But I'm narrow-minded because I certainly have never praised this vehicle or that it's a great car, but you're not missing by going elsewhere. Heck, you gain in savings. 

 

If hybrids are not about saving money, then that just defeats the purpose. 

 

 

 

Even the old eAssist was a step up from the base 4-cylinder in performance.  It had an extra grunt at low RPM that the regular Ecotec didn't.  With more powerful electronics in this Hybrid, I expect it will be an even larger distinction. 

 

All these systems are stepping stones as each generation makes gains. These are technologies that have had to be put in play to make it so companies outside GM would invest to make better systems and more advances.

 

Kind of like LG and batteries. If GM did not make the Volt there was a snowballs chance anyone would have invested in the battery for a car that was not going to market.

 

This is kind of like the space program where the goal was to make it to the moon but the real mission was to simulate the companies into making and building technology for it that could be transferred to other things. This is a slow grow and low profit deal now but as time and technology grows it will make thing better, cheaper and profitable. Most new technologies are like that. Even the first home computers really did not make money and did not really work all that great.

 

 

Yet still you're avoiding my main point. 

 

So you mean people should be willfully blind and buy a vehicle even though it doesn't actually save money over competitors when that's the main purpose - to keep operational costs to an absolute minimum?

 

I'm a ruthless consumer and I expect the very best. There would be no problems with the value equation if this Malibu was priced the same as a Fusion or Camry hybrid.

 

Same as the Accord Hybrid and its dubious value.

 

And how will the future of this vehicle get to the moon? The best markets for hybrids in the U.S. have already set 2050 as the year to ban any vehicle with an ICE. I understand this decision was made long after the development of this vehicle was done. But it's just another problem for hybrids - like gas cars, their days are also numbered.

 

If this there was an electric Malibu, that'd be a real breakthrough - a clean sedan, not some plump toaster that is the industry standard for the affordable electric car.

 

 

Not evading ignoring you in general.

[Suaviloquent]

 

Gasoline is predicted to be priced in the low two dollar range for the next 46 years.  What we need is a Malibu with CTS-V power, and a price tag of $28,644.

 

If you believe that can I interest you in a Bridge in NYC? They say it is popular and I can give you a real good deal.

​Blu we are just one major middle east conflict away from prices spiking over night. The Saud get bombed and their oil gets cut off or invaded by Iran the price on globally traded oil commodities would go crazy.

​I hope you are joking on the BU. I know you are smarter than that.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I think that was a joke intended to be salient towards your standpoint.

[Suaviloquent]

Well, the only opposition to my argument never actually specifically talked about the facts relevant to this thread.

 

Anyways. 

 

Aside from willful ignorance of the primary reasons why hybrids are purchased... 

 

Malibu will garner praise from the media like any decent hybrid out there. 

[hyperv6]

 

 

Another reason the Malibu hybrid may do better than many think.  The base engine is only moderate performance.  The hybrid is a way to step up in acceleration but not spend to go all the way up to the 2.0.  Its like a defacto midlevel engine choice.

 

Chevy isn't the first to do that. The Camry hybrid and Accord Hybrid (now defunct) run 0-60 in the low 7s.

 

But I'll never understand the hyprocrisy of quoting a hybrid for brisk acceleration that only degrades it's true metric of performance of intended function - efficiency.

 

a hybrid with good performance, though, helps justify the higher sticker.  If you price the hybrid like they are and its as slow as the base car or even slower, then for sure its gonna sit on lots.

 

 

Well I would not say it justifies the price but it does make it more attractive to more customers. For too long a lot of Hybrids were not always the fastest or offers performance equal to other cars. Today they can offer more performance and not handicap the gains made in efficiency.

 

As for cars like the Ferrari and Porsche Hybrids they are using these systems to not only make the cars more efficient but to boost performance to levels not able to be achieved easily before.  As I saw one story on these cars it stated clearly that these systems will save the super car as with out it they would die in the future.

 

​Ferrari did not make a La Ferrari just to be fashionable but they did it to help meet future regs that would have killed these kinds of cars. In the future you will see on all V8 and larger and most V6 cars some hybrid system. Odds are good even most 4 cylinders too. You can only cut so much size, weight and cylinders so you have to get the added range some how.

 

The first of all these systems will not be cheap but as in the Malibu the prices will start to fall. 

 

In places like Europe Green is a major thing. Not only are they a force in Politics with their own party but even as consumers. I can remember Michelin gave us their prototype of the Green tire back in the late 80's. It was intended at first for Europe and to get more MPG and be environmentally friendly. It was first targeted at Germany. Now even in America there is a larger consumer base that buy to be green even at an added cost to themselves. Most are based near salt water on a coast like the west coast and the north east.

[hyperv6]

 

 

Gasoline is predicted to be priced in the low two dollar range for the next 46 years.  What we need is a Malibu with CTS-V power, and a price tag of $28,644.

 

If you believe that can I interest you in a Bridge in NYC? They say it is popular and I can give you a real good deal.

​Blu we are just one major middle east conflict away from prices spiking over night. The Saud get bombed and their oil gets cut off or invaded by Iran the price on globally traded oil commodities would go crazy.

​I hope you are joking on the BU. I know you are smarter than that.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I think that was a joke intended to be salient towards your standpoint.

 

 

Well I removed one from Ignore and add one.

 

I try to never have more than 2 lead paint eaters ignored at one time.

 

​

[Suaviloquent]

 

 

 

Another reason the Malibu hybrid may do better than many think.  The base engine is only moderate performance.  The hybrid is a way to step up in acceleration but not spend to go all the way up to the 2.0.  Its like a defacto midlevel engine choice.

 

Chevy isn't the first to do that. The Camry hybrid and Accord Hybrid (now defunct) run 0-60 in the low 7s.

 

But I'll never understand the hyprocrisy of quoting a hybrid for brisk acceleration that only degrades it's true metric of performance of intended function - efficiency.

 

a hybrid with good performance, though, helps justify the higher sticker.  If you price the hybrid like they are and its as slow as the base car or even slower, then for sure its gonna sit on lots.

 

 

Well I would not say it justifies the price but it does make it more attractive to more customers. For too long a lot of Hybrids were not always the fastest or offers performance equal to other cars. Today they can offer more performance and not handicap the gains made in efficiency.

 

As for cars like the Ferrari and Porsche Hybrids they are using these systems to not only make the cars more efficient but to boost performance to levels not able to be achieved easily before.  As I saw one story on these cars it stated clearly that these systems will save the super car as with out it they would die in the future.

 

​Ferrari did not make a La Ferrari just to be fashionable but they did it to help meet future regs that would have killed these kinds of cars. In the future you will see on all V8 and larger and most V6 cars some hybrid system. Odds are good even most 4 cylinders too. You can only cut so much size, weight and cylinders so you have to get the added range some how.

 

The first of all these systems will not be cheap but as in the Malibu the prices will start to fall. 

 

In places like Europe Green is a major thing. Not only are they a force in Politics with their own party but even as consumers. I can remember Michelin gave us their prototype of the Green tire back in the late 80's. It was intended at first for Europe and to get more MPG and be environmentally friendly. It was first targeted at Germany. Now even in America there is a larger consumer base that buy to be green even at an added cost to themselves. Most are based near salt water on a coast like the west coast and the north east.

 

 

Actually the proof is outside of GM.

 

The competitors cost less and provide mostly the same efficiency. And driven carefully, you can squeeze the mpgs higher than the ratings suggest in any hybrid.

 

Great, so fast cars all easily sellable.

 

Someone remind me why the take rates on V6 and the large turbo engines in midsize sedans are not higher than the base or lower engine options.

 

Go back to acquisition cost and operational cost.

 

Again, it's hard for me to understand why people think this car is special when it does nothing groundbreaking in this class. Sure it's got a meager advantage in efficiency that beguils its price disadvantage.

[regfootball]

AT REG...

 

The Tesla Model S does not match the hype?

 

Id like to hear from you how the Tesla Model S does not match the hype.

 

 

Because from where Im sitting, the Model S not only matches the hype...it far exceeds it....from countless points of view...

 

1. start up company that has set the whole world on fire in less than a decade

2. with a car that has the major automobile companies of the world chasing the Model S...proof?

The Porsche EV sedan that is set to arrive 2-3-4-5 years from now...

The State Michigan re-inventing fascism to fit our democratic lifestyle to prevent Tesla's business model to become successful...our way or the highway disguised...

3. The Model S...a first real attempt to engineer an EV platform from scratch...

Hiccups along the way...yeah...a few...comparable to the hiccups that seasoned veterans have...veterans that have been in the business for 100 years and then some...not barely 10.......there is one less zero at the end of that number one you know...

4. The Model S achieves great performance numbers in whatever category you want numbers to be compared...

Speed, acceleration, mileage for EVs....it is the leader in electronic range....and it is the fastest sedan...maybe a Hellcat...but definitely no Porsche or M-B or BMW sedans beat it...and that Hellcat...it took another ballsy AMERICAN car company to outdo the muscle car formula to achieve this with a 6.2 lite superchatged V8 worth 707 horsepower...the most horsepower ever offered in a production sedan...

5. Meaning....it has schooled the veterans in how to actually engineer a proper EV...

6. The Model S...its a stunning design...the Fisker Karma is just unbelievably  out of this world....but the Model S has that elegant, sexy, rich and luxurious design with the right amount of curves in the right places to make it a better looking vehicle than any other in its price range...excluding the aforementioned  Fisker Karma...and the Model S still looks good 3-4 years later...and...its sales are not dipping...but INCREASING...

 

I could go on...but at 6...I think Ive proven my point of view that the Model S exceeds expectations...

 

How 'bout yours?

 

PS: QUALITY OF MATERIALS BETTER NOT BE ON YOUR LIST...

why?

 

Kinda like a Corvette...the money you are spending on a Model S or a Corvette...obviously a C6 rather than the C7...is for the engineering involved...high tech engineering...

 

You want an interior that is better...be prepared to spend more money...

 

Impossible for you...you want high tech shyte, state of the art at 30 000...

It seems to me you are more of a dreamer than a hater...so Ill apologize for calling you a hater...Ill start calling you a dreamer instead...

for 100k they need to find a way to get on consumer reports recommended list and not have headlines saying 2/3 of their cars are broke.

 

and it would help if their CEO weren't a douche

 

for smk

 

 

Mazda 6 (2014 sales: 53,224)

 

Mazda honestly is all hype these days too.  Mazda, put some f-king power under the hood MAZDA, don't play the 'just enough power' thing anymore.

What Mazda needs more than anything is a subprime loan campaign ala mits in the early 00's.  Malibu will outsell 'the drivers car' 4 to 1.

Edited December 14, 2015 by regfootball

[ocnblu]

Nobody buys hybrids.  Why are they even bothering with this crap?

 

And my post about the honking V8 Malibu was only an ardent wish, not a joke directed at anyone, I know it won't happen in our Chicken Little world.

[Drew Dowdell]

There are people who do buy hybrids and this technology is needed going forward.  Not everyone buys a hybrid to reduce their total cost to own, indeed usually the best way to reduce total cost to own is to buy a used 4-cylinder from a brand that depreciates quickly.  Most new-car hybrid purchases don't make financial sense if the sole goal is to save money.   

 

That doesn't mean that people won't buy them.  The Pruis has never offered a financial benefit over a Corolla, but Toyota has sold the snot out of them.

[Suaviloquent]

There are people who do buy hybrids and this technology is needed going forward.  Not everyone buys a hybrid to reduce their total cost to own, indeed usually the best way to reduce total cost to own is to buy a used 4-cylinder from a brand that depreciates quickly.  Most new-car hybrid purchases don't make financial sense if the sole goal is to save money.   

 

That doesn't mean that people won't buy them.  The Pruis has never offered a financial benefit over a Corolla, but Toyota has sold the snot out of them.

 

See, this is the kind of post I was trying to elucidate.

 

But don't Prius buyers hold on to their vehicles until the battery has completely rotted?

 

And yeah, I agree, tech does need to go forward. But still the point remains. GM can claim the FE advantage all they want for this hybrid.

 

But it'll be quite naive to believe that just the increase in FE is all that's worth considering - because the intention there is very much to tout the frugality.

 

Once you go down that road, like I said, people should really be indifferent towards the efficiency ratings of the Malibu and competing hybrids. Buy what they want, don't buy the ratings.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

There are people who do buy hybrids and this technology is needed going forward.  Not everyone buys a hybrid to reduce their total cost to own, indeed usually the best way to reduce total cost to own is to buy a used 4-cylinder from a brand that depreciates quickly.  Most new-car hybrid purchases don't make financial sense if the sole goal is to save money.   

 

That doesn't mean that people won't buy them.  The Pruis has never offered a financial benefit over a Corolla, but Toyota has sold the snot out of them.

 

See, this is the kind of post I was trying to elucidate.

 

But don't Prius buyers hold on to their vehicles until the battery has completely rotted?

 

And yeah, I agree, tech does need to go forward. But still the point remains. GM can claim the FE advantage all they want for this hybrid.

 

But it'll be quite naive to believe that just the increase in FE is all that's worth considering - because the intention there is very much to tout the frugality.

 

Once you go down that road, like I said, people should really be indifferent towards the efficiency ratings. Buy what they want, don't buy the ratings.

 

 

I don't think there is any one type of Pruis driver.  Even still,  there are 6,480 listings for a used Pruis under 100k miles, nationwide just on Autotrader.com alone. 

 

I think, as hyper was saying, there is a performance element to modern hybrids in cars that have a gas-only version. The most common complaint for hybrids is that they are too slow. The Malibu hybrid will most likely have equal or better scoot than the base 1.5T since it has 21 more horsepower and most likely more torque (I can't find a published torque number for the hybrid), so it's a way to split the performance difference with the 2.0T while rocking the fuel economy.

[G. David Felt]

Nobody buys hybrids.  Why are they even bothering with this crap?

 

And my post about the honking V8 Malibu was only an ardent wish, not a joke directed at anyone, I know it won't happen in our Chicken Little world.

So how do you explain that in 2014, US sales of Hybrids were a combined total of 507,272 sold.

 

Here is the official GOV link showing Hybrid sales all the way back to 1999 when only 17 were sold. 2000 9,350 were sold, 20,282 in 2001 were sold. I am sure an auto maker would love to have that large sales increase for a model. Now over half a million units sold in 2014.

 

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_19.html

 

Notice that from 1999 to 2003 this was I believe all Toyota, no one else. Then in 2004 you have domestic and imports listed.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Nobody buys hybrids.  Why are they even bothering with this crap?

 

And my post about the honking V8 Malibu was only an ardent wish, not a joke directed at anyone, I know it won't happen in our Chicken Little world.

So how do you explain that in 2014, US sales of Hybrids were a combined total of 507,272 sold.

 

Here is the official GOV link showing Hybrid sales all the way back to 1999 when only 17 were sold. 2000 9,350 were sold, 20,282 in 2001 were sold. I am sure an auto maker would love to have that large sales increase for a model. Now over half a million units sold in 2014.

 

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_19.html

 

Notice that from 1999 to 2003 this was I believe all Toyota, no one else. Then in 2004 you have domestic and imports listed.

 

 

Honda would have to be in that 1999 - 2003 total as well.... they actually beat Toyota to market with a Hybrid very slightly. 

[G. David Felt]

 

 

Nobody buys hybrids.  Why are they even bothering with this crap?

 

And my post about the honking V8 Malibu was only an ardent wish, not a joke directed at anyone, I know it won't happen in our Chicken Little world.

So how do you explain that in 2014, US sales of Hybrids were a combined total of 507,272 sold.

 

Here is the official GOV link showing Hybrid sales all the way back to 1999 when only 17 were sold. 2000 9,350 were sold, 20,282 in 2001 were sold. I am sure an auto maker would love to have that large sales increase for a model. Now over half a million units sold in 2014.

 

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_19.html

 

Notice that from 1999 to 2003 this was I believe all Toyota, no one else. Then in 2004 you have domestic and imports listed.

 

 

Honda would have to be in that 1999 - 2003 total as well.... they actually beat Toyota to market with a Hybrid very slightly. 

 

Very cool and thanks Drew for pointing that out. I always forget about that weird little 2 person Honda Insight hybrid they build.

[Drew Dowdell]

Okay people... enough with the personal back and forth... 

[oldshurst442]

 

AT REG...

 

The Tesla Model S does not match the hype?

 

Id like to hear from you how the Tesla Model S does not match the hype.

 

 

Because from where Im sitting, the Model S not only matches the hype...it far exceeds it....from countless points of view...

 

1. start up company that has set the whole world on fire in less than a decade

2. with a car that has the major automobile companies of the world chasing the Model S...proof?

The Porsche EV sedan that is set to arrive 2-3-4-5 years from now...

The State Michigan re-inventing fascism to fit our democratic lifestyle to prevent Tesla's business model to become successful...our way or the highway disguised...

3. The Model S...a first real attempt to engineer an EV platform from scratch...

Hiccups along the way...yeah...a few...comparable to the hiccups that seasoned veterans have...veterans that have been in the business for 100 years and then some...not barely 10.......there is one less zero at the end of that number one you know...

4. The Model S achieves great performance numbers in whatever category you want numbers to be compared...

Speed, acceleration, mileage for EVs....it is the leader in electronic range....and it is the fastest sedan...maybe a Hellcat...but definitely no Porsche or M-B or BMW sedans beat it...and that Hellcat...it took another ballsy AMERICAN car company to outdo the muscle car formula to achieve this with a 6.2 lite superchatged V8 worth 707 horsepower...the most horsepower ever offered in a production sedan...

5. Meaning....it has schooled the veterans in how to actually engineer a proper EV...

6. The Model S...its a stunning design...the Fisker Karma is just unbelievably  out of this world....but the Model S has that elegant, sexy, rich and luxurious design with the right amount of curves in the right places to make it a better looking vehicle than any other in its price range...excluding the aforementioned  Fisker Karma...and the Model S still looks good 3-4 years later...and...its sales are not dipping...but INCREASING...

 

I could go on...but at 6...I think Ive proven my point of view that the Model S exceeds expectations...

 

How 'bout yours?

 

PS: QUALITY OF MATERIALS BETTER NOT BE ON YOUR LIST...

why?

 

Kinda like a Corvette...the money you are spending on a Model S or a Corvette...obviously a C6 rather than the C7...is for the engineering involved...high tech engineering...

 

You want an interior that is better...be prepared to spend more money...

 

Impossible for you...you want high tech shyte, state of the art at 30 000...

It seems to me you are more of a dreamer than a hater...so Ill apologize for calling you a hater...Ill start calling you a dreamer instead...

for 100k they need to find a way to get on consumer reports recommended list and not have headlines saying 2/3 of their cars are broke.

 

and it would help if their CEO weren't a douche

 

for smk

 

 

Mazda 6 (2014 sales: 53,224)

 

Mazda honestly is all hype these days too.  Mazda, put some f-king power under the hood MAZDA, don't play the 'just enough power' thing anymore.

What Mazda needs more than anything is a subprime loan campaign ala mits in the early 00's.  Malibu will outsell 'the drivers car' 4 to 1.

 

I think Drew covered the 66% part so I aint touching that...

 

And even if Elon is a douche...which is just an opinion on what side of the fence you are on...that has NOTHING to do with Tesla the company or the Model S...

 

 

Im not here to change your mind on anything...Im just here to point out the...we will stay politically correct....double standards...

Edited December 14, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

Elon is a gigantic douche.... I like Tesla but can acknowledge that fact.  In fact, I think Elon is probably Tesla's biggest liability, period..... but that doesn't mean I want the whole company to fail just to punish him.  The CEO of Uber is a gigantic douche too, but I still use the service.

[smk4565]

507,000 hybrid sales out of a 17 million unit market.  There is no doubt that the Malibu should offer a hybrid, but it is not like it is a game changer, when Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, etc have one also.  But you have to make it for buyers that only want hybrids.  My question is how many all wheel drive (or 4 wheel drive) vehicles were sold last year?  I'd guess over 8 million, seems like that is an option that buyers want and the Malibu should offer.  Especially since you can't get it on Accord or Camry.  And I know Subaru sales are low, but look at how many people buy a Subaru solely because it is all wheel drive.

[oldshurst442]

Elon is a gigantic douche.... I like Tesla but can acknowledge that fact.  In fact, I think Elon is probably Tesla's biggest liability, period..... but that doesn't mean I want the whole company to fail just to punish him.  The CEO of Uber is a gigantic douche too, but I still use the service.

 

I would acknowledge that fact had I known more about Elon and what he has actually said and done in regards to the automotive industry for him to be called a douche...however...I dont really care for that...I equate that to National Enquirer BS...

 

I look at the product itself and judge the product...I dont care for the rest of the stuff, its just noise.

[Drew Dowdell]

No.. not just what he has said... I'm pretty certain that a number of the questionable product decisions Tesla has made originate from the CEO's chair. A lot of good decisions come from that chair too... but the bad ones are ones that potentially put the company at when it doesn't have to be like that....

 

... and that's just douchey.

[oldshurst442]

OK...now Im curious.

 

What were those bad decisions?

I truly am not aware...and Id like to know.

 

And does that mean the Model S could have been an even better product than it already is?

Edited December 14, 2015 by oldshurst442

[hyperv6]

Elon is a gigantic douche.... I like Tesla but can acknowledge that fact.  In fact, I think Elon is probably Tesla's biggest liability, period..... but that doesn't mean I want the whole company to fail just to punish him.  The CEO of Uber is a gigantic douche too, but I still use the service.

 

Elon is the best thing and worst thing for Tesla.

 

He can deflect and promote on the web as well as anyone I have seen. But his ego can also get him into trouble at times too. It remains to be seen if they bit off too much with the X model. I expect it will sell well but how many issues will happen because of the doors. Windshields and other technical things that run a high risk that really were not needed.

 

As for performance Hybrid's it is not just added performance but the fact you can get the benefits of a EV to a point but not have to deal with all the other things needed for a plug in. It is not a life style changer. You drive it and own it like a normal car. EV's are lifestyle changers if you use them as a normal car. Many people are ok with that but most are not.

 

Either way the things learned today and invested in now will pay off when much of this will be required to meet the future regulations.

 

The goal of any new technology be it Hybrid, EV, Hydrogen or any other is to provide a customer experience that is the same as the ICE or better. If it is slower, takes a long time to charge, Shorter ranges etc. these are unacceptable to many buyers and much be over come by each means.

 

This whole deal is ever evolving.

[hyperv6]

No.. not just what he has said... I'm pretty certain that a number of the questionable product decisions Tesla has made originate from the CEO's chair. A lot of good decisions come from that chair too... but the bad ones are ones that potentially put the company at when it doesn't have to be like that....

 

... and that's just douchey.

 

Elon is one major issue away from failure just do to being s small MFG. So far they have faired well but say the X is a reliability nightmare and the media falls out of love he will not get a second chance as he has little options to fall back on. Just the nature of a smaller company with limited product options.

[Drew Dowdell]

OK...now Im curious.

 

What were those bad decisions?

I truly am not aware...and Id like to know.

 

And does that mean the Model S could have been an even better product than it already is?

 

Gull Wing Doors - how many months/years of delay due to this single feature?

Not allowing early adopters of the lower end models access to the supercharger network without an additional $10k fee for a software update.

Picking fights with state legislatures and regulators instead of trying to work with them.  

Over promising on the battery swap idea and then under delivering (one battery swap location, never open)

Some of the early model product mix wasn't very good, the low end models were price leaders that no one wanted to buy (obviously why they were canceled)

Spending money to develop the zombie mode chemical warfare resistance stuff.... that was money poorly spent.

Spending money developing ludicrous speed rather than greater range.

[oldshurst442]

 

OK...now Im curious.

 

What were those bad decisions?

I truly am not aware...and Id like to know.

 

And does that mean the Model S could have been an even better product than it already is?

 

Gull Wing Doors - how many months/years of delay due to this single feature?

Not allowing early adopters of the lower end models access to the supercharger network without an additional $10k fee for a software update.

Picking fights with state legislatures and regulators instead of trying to work with them.  

Over promising on the battery swap idea and then under delivering (one battery swap location, never open)

Some of the early model product mix wasn't very good, the low end models were price leaders that no one wanted to buy (obviously why they were canceled)

Spending money to develop the zombie mode chemical warfare resistance stuff.... that was money poorly spent.

Spending money developing ludicrous speed rather than greater range.

 

 

 

- Gull wing doors

Yes...gimmick. A needless gimmick that should have not been engineered in the first place so the Model X could have been sold already...money spent needlessly and money not being made.

 

- Not Allowing Early Adopters  of lower end to access superchargers without that 10 000 dollar fee...

Maybe Im naive to this automotive business, but with this, Im not in agreement....as a restaurant owner, I also understand how much things cost...overhead and engineering...maybe he felt the need to NOT give away this software as to help with the cost of the infrastructure as its Tesla that is building this infrasture all on their own...that money has to be financed somehow...and Elon found a way to finance some of it some way...

 

- Picking fights with anybody is never a good thing...especially when you need law makers on your side...maybe the other CEOs should have picked a more diplomatic figure for those missions...I agree. I wasnt aware of that...

 

-  The battery swap idea....

 

OH YEAH....THAT rings a bell...yeah...I remember that...I equated that idea with BBQ propane tanks...I ALWAYS avoided propane fill up stations where this was a policy...for obvious reasons...

I guess he was desperate for solutions at that point in time when he dreamt up this one.

 

- Product mix in the earlier years...

 

Ill chalk that up to rookie mistakes in the car building world...

If he chose NOT to listen to more experienced people...then yes douche....however, if no one at Tesla had ANY experience in this field...you cant really pin that on him as such

 

- Zombie chemical war fare???

 

Sounds stupid...yes...a colossal waste of money...even if zombie really means VIP person being chauffered in a Tesla and a Tesla has anti-terrorist capabilities...he should have left that to companies that actually build  fortified S Classes for people of importance and such...

 

- Ludicrous speed.instead of range...

 

Yes and no...

 

The Model S is an EV,,,so range should be its priority...yet a Model S is also a status symbol...a very fast status symbol...and electric motors have the ability to achieve  great speed because of instantaneos power and torque....he wanted to show case that as well...cant fault him for that angle...

 

I see your point and everyone else's...

 

But like you said...I also dont wish for failure for Tesla...because the Model S does not seemed as a compromised vehicle...

 

However...unlike Hyper with me...I dont have Hyper on my ignore list...I read his posts...I learn from his posts...and I could see how the Model X could be a compromised vehicle...

 

(Hyper...dont let that get to your head...you are a smart guy...however...YOU think you are ALWAYS right and DONT want to learn from ANYBODY...THAT gets my goat...)

Edited December 14, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

On the supercharger thing - He should have just upped the cost of the car to cover the fee..  Yes it costs money, but making a separate transaction means it can't be rolled into lease payments/financing.  It's not that it matters though, so few bought those low end models anyway. 

[oldshurst442]

On the supercharger thing - He should have just upped the cost of the car to cover the fee..  Yes it costs money, but making a separate transaction means it can't be rolled into lease payments/financing.  It's not that it matters though, so few bought those low end models anyway. 

 

The part I underlined in your post...

 

THAT would be the mistake...I get it.

[Drew Dowdell]

On the Model-X, if they wanted to do that other stuff with Gull Wing doors and Zombie defense mode, wait till the "normal" cars are already rolling down the line... get the bread and butter money makers out on the market FIRST and then do the crazy stuff.

[Drew Dowdell]

So now that we have the Tesla talk out of the way (ahem), here is an example of why the Hybrid matters.

 

I have a co-worker who drives the 2008-2011 Malibu. Loves the car, but it has 170k on it.  I helped him pick it out when he bought it new a few years back.  He claims to "only" do 20k a year on his car, but clearly that is a bit low.

 

Ever since he saw the new Malibu, he's been itching to trade into it. He loves the look.  I've suggested other alternatives as well (Subaru Legacy, he lives way north of the city in the snowy area), but he keeps coming back to the Malibu.  He went and looked at a new LTZ 2.0T for $32k over the weekend that just came in to his local dealer.  He likes it, but he doesn't care about speed, just fuel economy.  He has a very long commute that starts in traffic, then open freeway, then back to traffic again.   I let him know this base price of the new Malibu and the MPGs.  $28k is right in his target price, so if he can wait till they get on the market, he'll probably buy one, otherwise he'll end up in the 1.5T. 

 

Does it make absolute financial sense for him to go with the Hybrid? No, but then most car purchases don't. There are just going to be people the like the car and want to get the best fuel economy period. 

[ocnblu]

I'm lost.  What thread is this?

[hyperv6]

So now that we have the Tesla talk out of the way (ahem), here is an example of why the Hybrid matters.

 

I have a co-worker who drives the 2008-2011 Malibu. Loves the car, but it has 170k on it.  I helped him pick it out when he bought it new a few years back.  He claims to "only" do 20k a year on his car, but clearly that is a bit low.

 

Ever since he saw the new Malibu, he's been itching to trade into it. He loves the look.  I've suggested other alternatives as well (Subaru Legacy, he lives way north of the city in the snowy area), but he keeps coming back to the Malibu.  He went and looked at a new LTZ 2.0T for $32k over the weekend that just came in to his local dealer.  He likes it, but he doesn't care about speed, just fuel economy.  He has a very long commute that starts in traffic, then open freeway, then back to traffic again.   I let him know this base price of the new Malibu and the MPGs.  $28k is right in his target price, so if he can wait till they get on the market, he'll probably buy one, otherwise he'll end up in the 1.5T. 

 

Does it make absolute financial sense for him to go with the Hybrid? No, but then most car purchases don't. There are just going to be people the like the car and want to get the best fuel economy period. 

 

Yes there are even web sites for Hypermilers. Some of these folks just drive to see how far they can get the numbers.

 

 ​Performance takes on many faces.

[Drew Dowdell]

I wouldn't call this co-worker a hypermiler, but with a commute like his, I understand why MPG is a priority.  I tried to talk him into a Volt as there is a garage connected to our building with chargers and he could just make it end to end without using gas, but he said it was too small for his family.

[regfootball]

So now that we have the Tesla talk out of the way (ahem), here is an example of why the Hybrid matters.

 

I have a co-worker who drives the 2008-2011 Malibu. Loves the car, but it has 170k on it.  I helped him pick it out when he bought it new a few years back.  He claims to "only" do 20k a year on his car, but clearly that is a bit low.

 

Ever since he saw the new Malibu, he's been itching to trade into it. He loves the look.  I've suggested other alternatives as well (Subaru Legacy, he lives way north of the city in the snowy area), but he keeps coming back to the Malibu.  He went and looked at a new LTZ 2.0T for $32k over the weekend that just came in to his local dealer.  He likes it, but he doesn't care about speed, just fuel economy.  He has a very long commute that starts in traffic, then open freeway, then back to traffic again.   I let him know this base price of the new Malibu and the MPGs.  $28k is right in his target price, so if he can wait till they get on the market, he'll probably buy one, otherwise he'll end up in the 1.5T. 

 

Does it make absolute financial sense for him to go with the Hybrid? No, but then most car purchases don't. There are just going to be people the like the car and want to get the best fuel economy period.

Seems like the hybrid is a great choice for him.

I wouldn't call this co-worker a hypermiler, but with a commute like his, I understand why MPG is a priority.  I tried to talk him into a Volt as there is a garage connected to our building with chargers and he could just make it end to end without using gas, but he said it was too small for his family.

Underscores what I mentioned earlier.....voltec needs to go Malibu sized

[Drew Dowdell]

Voltec has battery packaging issues still. that was the deal killer for him with the regular Volt.

[hyperv6]

Voltec has battery packaging issues still. that was the deal killer for him with the regular Volt.

When it comes to todays technology not everyone wants Vanilla or even ice cream. Offer many options and there is something for everyone to latch on to.

Actually it is really like offering many models too. Not everyone wants a Cruze of Pick up.