Motor Trend Head2Head: GT350R vs. Z/28

[ccap41]

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

How is a cam and heads not a lot of investment? You're talking about a couple grand in parts.. Not saying it isn't very responsive to bolt ons(even though it already has an intake built by k&n) just that heads and a cam aren't really cheap and easy to do and will obviously require a tune.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

 

You are 100% wrong.

 

The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise.

GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor.  GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at.  

 

The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff.  There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed.  Hardly exotic.  Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium.  And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs.  Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners.  

 

 

 

You are welcome.

 

 

An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought.

 

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html

 

Throw the 0-60 times out the window, I can promise you the Z/28 feels stronger out on the street.

 

Again, cost-no-object, I'd take the Shelby, but it's a narrow victory for it, and I think whatever GM has coming will easily surpass it.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

 

 

The Shelby.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

How is a cam and heads not a lot of investment? You're talking about a couple grand in parts.. Not saying it isn't very responsive to bolt ons(even though it already has an intake built by k&n) just that heads and a cam aren't really cheap and easy to do and will obviously require a tune.

 

 

In the pushrod world, heads/cam is a fairly moderate upgrade. You're not opening up the engine to replace rods/pistons/crank/etc. It's a 3 grand cost if done right, yes. Still less than half the cost of forced induction, and still stock rotating assembly. And even if you wanna disregard that, even just intake, headers, and tune sees them picking up substantial gains- 50whp+.

[FordCosworth]

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

 

A) it matters about as much as a win over the Pontiac G8 GXP

B) or they were tied.

C) My mistake, I was thinking Camaro ZL1 that has the last gen MRC. 

 

I don't dispute that it was a win for the Mustang.....  the "barely" part comes down to the fact that the hard numbers were within the margin of error and the intangibles being... intangible.

A) By now pulling out a defunct car from a defunct brand, you really come across as trying to discredit the Shelby. It beat the Top Dog Camaro, fair and square, while having a 10k cheaper as tested price.

B) Lap after lap, that equal driver in the Z/28 is even further behind, he tries that much harder, and is now in the guard rail...

[ccap41]

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

 

You are 100% wrong.

 

The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise.

GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor.  GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at.  

 

The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff.  There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed.  Hardly exotic.  Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium.  And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs.  Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners.  

 

 

 

You are welcome.

 

An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought.

 

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html

Throw the 0-60 times out the window, I can promise you the Z/28 feels stronger out on the street.

 

Again, cost-no-object, I'd take the Shelby, but it's a narrow victory for it, and I think whatever GM has coming will easily surpass it.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

 

The Shelby.

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

[FordCosworth]

Cam swap in a OHV is not a simple swap. It's a pretty big tear down.

You need drain all fluids and remove; All wiring, plugs, oil pan, timing cover, timing cover seal, timing chain, water pump, fuel pump, valve covers, intake set, heads, push rods, cam...

Oh. Let's not forget pulling the engine.

It's almost like they've never done a cam/head change on an OHV pushrod engine.

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

 

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

 

A) it matters about as much as a win over the Pontiac G8 GXP

B) or they were tied.

C) My mistake, I was thinking Camaro ZL1 that has the last gen MRC. 

 

I don't dispute that it was a win for the Mustang.....  the "barely" part comes down to the fact that the hard numbers were within the margin of error and the intangibles being... intangible.

A) By now pulling out a defunct car from a defunct brand, you really come across as trying to discredit the Shelby. It beat the Top Dog Camaro, fair and square, while having a 10k cheaper as tested price.

B) Lap after lap, that equal driver in the Z/28 is even further behind, he tries that much harder, and is now in the guard rail...

 

 

A) you simply don't get it. I can't get that excited about this win by the mustang over a car that was very soon to be defunct at the time the video was made.... and is in reality defunct today.  You are cheerleading for the Mustang, but all I see is a new car beat an older car.  I expect the new car to beat the old car. But I because of all of the cheerleading that goes on in here about the Mustang, I expected it to beat that older car by a much larger margin.  It didn't.

 

B) Imagination is a good thing and I encourage you to try use it much more often... maybe then you'll be able to see more than one point of view.  The margin of driver error goes both ways in both cars.   Furthermore, a single lap does not have a sufficient set of data points to reach a conclusion.  Had they done 5 or 10 laps, and given the best of each or the total time, I would have been more convinced of the results. 

 

edit: And just try to get the Shelby GT350R out of the dealer's hands for anything less than $10k markup over MSRP.

[surreal1272]

production is one thing, advertising and selling is another.

So now there is a distinction because there wasn't one, according to you, back on page 2?

 

"production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book." (your exact words)

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

 

You are 100% wrong.

 

The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise.

GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor.  GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at.  

 

The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff.  There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed.  Hardly exotic.  Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium.  And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs.  Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners.  

 

 

 

You are welcome.

 

 

An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought.

 

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html

 

Throw the 0-60 times out the window, I can promise you the Z/28 feels stronger out on the street.

 

Again, cost-no-object, I'd take the Shelby, but it's a narrow victory for it, and I think whatever GM has coming will easily surpass it.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

 

 

The Shelby.

 

 

 

I responded to your claim that the LS7 made it's power "without a lot of investment."

They clearly did invest quite a lot, and it showed, and you even admitted it.

And yeah, lots of aftermarket tuners get to play by a much different set of rules than production.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Drew Dowdell

[FordCosworth]

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over?

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

You are 100% wrong.

The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise.
GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor. GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at.

The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff. There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed. Hardly exotic. Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium. And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs. Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners.



You are welcome.

An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html

 

 

Throw the 0-60 times out the window, I can promise you the Z/28 feels stronger out on the street.

Again, cost-no-object, I'd take the Shelby, but it's a narrow victory for it, and I think whatever GM has coming will easily surpass it.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

The Shelby.

I responded to your claim that the LS7 made it's power "without a lot of investment."
They clearly did invest quite a lot, and it showed, and you even admitted it.
And yeah, lots of aftermarket tuners get to play by a much different set of rules than production.

". And yeah, lots of aftermarket tuners get to play by a much different set of rules than production "

Exactly. Sure some aftermarket shop can build a N/A 500+ HP 5.3L OHV. But GM won't. GM must meet drivability, emissions, warranty etc etc. And in meeting those, an OHV 5.3L from GM cannot breath or rev enough to make 500+ without power adders. Edited November 28, 2015 by Drew Dowdell

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Anyway, aside from ignoring the many perpetual GM fans who do same or more, what do you think about Ford's ability to squeeze over 100hp per liter out of ther 5.2L?  Not bad huh.  Did you read my suggestions for more power? Any thoughts on that?

[Drew Dowdell]

Why is the GM 5.3 being brought up?  It's not a meant to be a high performance engine... it's meant for hustling Suburbans along swiftly and silently. 

[Frisky Dingo]

 

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

 

 

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

[FordCosworth]

Just like to point out that the LS7 gains huge power with not a whole lot of investment. A decent cam, heads, and supporting bolt-ons puts them then in the upper 500's to the tire. It's not like that engine is tapped out by any means. As for doing 'more with less', well, the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and most likely more efficient to boot.

 

Anybody got a price tag on this new 5.2 Ford fans are soiling themselves over? 

 

Also, again- the Z/28 does not have 'numb' steering. I've driven one back to back with my old E90, which had tons of steering feel, and did not find it numb. Did it offer AS MUCH feel, no. Was it numb? Far from it. And it certainly doesn't feel numb to drive. About as far from numb as you can get, really.

 

You are 100% wrong.

 

The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise.

GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor.  GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at.  

 

The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff.  There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed.  Hardly exotic.  Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium.  And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs.  Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners.  

 

 

 

You are welcome.

 

An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought.

 http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html

Throw the 0-60 times out the window, I can promise you the Z/28 feels stronger out on the street.

 

Again, cost-no-object, I'd take the Shelby, but it's a narrow victory for it, and I think whatever GM has coming will easily surpass it.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

 

The Shelby.

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

No he has not driven either Shelby variant.

[FordCosworth]

Why is the GM 5.3 being brought up?  It's not a meant to be a high performance engine... it's meant for hustling Suburbans along swiftly and silently.

Why was the Alpha SS brought up? Or a non existent gen 6 Z/28? Or a highly modified LS7?

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Why is the GM 5.3 being brought up?  It's not a meant to be a high performance engine... it's meant for hustling Suburbans along swiftly and silently.

Why was the Alpha SS brought up? Or a non existent gen 6 Z/28? Or a highly modified LS7?

 

 

Because those are at least in the same realm of topics as the Camaro5 Z/28.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

production is one thing, advertising and selling is another.

So now there is a distinction because there wasn't one, according to you, back on page 2?

 

"production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book." (your exact words)

 

 

Because the mods asked us not to bicker, I will not go into detail, but obviously it has to do with each context of each discussion -- which you cherry picked each from.

 

Now, about the comparison.

How do you think each manufacturer will up their game in the next rounds?

[Drew Dowdell]

CTS-V Motor in the Camaro Chassis with ATS-V suspension tuning

 

Edit: ATS-V suspension tuning as a base.... it will probably be stiffer than that car

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Had dinner with my nephew just last night, and this time he was driving a CTS-V.  Silver outside with blue leather and tan suede inserts. Interesting color combo.  Looked great. Sounded incredible. What a job that boy has.  

 

That said, yeah, why not bring forced induction to this segment. 

[ccap41]

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

 

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

[ccap41]

Speaking of forced induction.. Who do you think will bring a blown 6 to the segment first? And in what "variant"?

Could GM bring the new 3.0T somewhere or Ford put the 2.7 into the mustsng? Or 3.5?

[FordCosworth]

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

And they don't show gear ratios, throttle tip in, blind spots, sight lines, chassis reflexes, steering ease and accuracy, clutch engagement, brake feel... Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Speaking of forced induction.. Who do you think will bring a blown 6 to the segment first? And in what "variant"?

Could GM bring the new 3.0T somewhere or Ford put the 2.7 into the mustsng? Or 3.5?

 

Ford will have a very capable 3.5L GTDI next year.  I think it is a given that they will EcoBoost another stang.  The question then becomes, what power level....a base 450hp (or so) that will be found in the Raptor and other vehicles, or something closer to the GT with well over 600 hp.  Also, what do they call it?  I say call it a Mach III.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Wings4Life

[surreal1272]

 

 

production is one thing, advertising and selling is another.

So now there is a distinction because there wasn't one, according to you, back on page 2?

 

"production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book." (your exact words)

 

 

Because the mods asked us not to bicker, I will not go into detail, but obviously it has to do with each context of each discussion -- which you cherry picked each from.

 

Now, about the comparison.

How do you think each manufacturer will up their game in the next rounds?

 

Nothing was cherry picked. It was a direct correlation, but I digress.

 

Again, this win did not surprise me. Ford went all out on the GT350R and it shows. Now, next year we will see what GM has up it's sleeve, since it has already been caught testing the next possible ZL1/Z28 (depending on which source you want to use). It's a great time to be a fan of these cars.

Edited November 29, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like.

I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner.

Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest.

[ccap41]

From how I see it, it was a huge victory but that's because the z28 is that great of a car. Had the Z not been as spectacular of a car it wouldn't be such a good victory but beating a car of that caliber whether in production or not is huge. And as cars advance and times diminish to 60 and 1/4 mile 1 tenth of a second becomes a larger and larger margin of victory.

[El Kabong]

Really?

So then, what is the bigger victory: the 350R beating an out-of-production Z/28 by 2 tenths in the quarter, or an Alpha SS beating a 5.0 by 7 tenths?

The reason I ask is because regardless of what many folks here and other places say about these two cars, there are always some preposterous fatheads who don't want to admit that GM has all the cards. Maybe they really hate GM that bad, or maybe they don't want to admit that their brand of choice isn't that ambitious in this segment anymore.

Either way, it's not a good look for them, or their brand.

[ccap41]

Really?

So then, what is the bigger victory: the 350R beating an out-of-production Z/28 by 2 tenths in the quarter, or an Alpha SS beating a 5.0 by 7 tenths?

The reason I ask is because regardless of what many folks here and other places say about these two cars, there are always some preposterous fatheads who don't want to admit that GM has all the cards. Maybe they really hate GM that bad, or maybe they don't want to admit that their brand of choice isn't that ambitious in this segment anymore.

Either way, it's not a good look for them, or their brand.

That's a pretty easy answer.. The bigger victory is the alpha over the GT. But as times creep closer and closer to 11's the percentage of victory of 1 tenth will grow. A car winning by 0.1 running 10.0 is a greater percent than winning my 0.1 when running 15.0(extreme examples). So as they creep closer and closer to a "perfect" 0.0 second sprint to 60mph(which is impossible for street legal cars) a win by 0.1 becomes a greater victory than it was 10 years ago. When a blistering time was 5.0 and now it's 4.0. Next is 3.0 then 2.0? Eventually you cannot be faster than 0 seconds to any amount of speed.

I hope that makes sense.. I think I'm confusing what I'm trying to say.

I feel like you're using the "out of production" argument to your advantage and not crediting how freakin good the Z28 is. The Z got nothing but praise by everybody just a year ago in every performance metric out there and now the car gets discredited because it isn't produced anymore? That shouldn't take away got great it is still. A Mclaren F1 is no less a car just because it's out of production. Comparing a car to that and beating it is still an outstanding accomplishment.

Edited November 29, 2015 by ccap41

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

It's fun to become 'magazine racers' and talk up a product or two from your favorite brand of choice, especially when we are talking about $70K track biased cars that are all but useless for day to day commutes. And I think we are all honest enough here to recognize that each and every automakers best product in these segments is merely a function of their efforts put forth, not their actual abilities. 

 

But I am more excited about a portfolio of performance products that not only lifts an entire brand higher, but each and every segment that it offers customers an option in.  Especially when they offer performance in affordable segments that people can live with daily. And with 12-14 vehicles soon filling their portfolio, I would say they will soon be holding all the cards. Literally.

 

 

....and finally, if somebody wants more speed in the Mustang, there is plenty of price difference to accommodate them.

[FordCosworth]

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like.

I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner.

Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest.

Type of victory I'm content with? I was more content with the GT350R's victory over a Viper ACR, Corvette Z06, 488GTB, ATS-V, AMG GTS etc etc than having the GT350R beat up on a Z/28.

The GT350R has shown to be excellence of execution.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

This.

[FordCosworth]

GT350R!

Quicker, faster, better driving!

Booyah!

[El Kabong]

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like.

I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner.

Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest.

Type of victory I'm content with? I was more content with the GT350R's victory over a Viper ACR, Corvette Z06, 488GTB, ATS-V, AMG GTS etc etc than having the GT350R beat up on a Z/28.

The GT350R has shown to be excellence of execution.

Well then, if that's he victory you want to hang your hat on...

You're off topic. We have a thread for that already.

Sheesh. Youse guys :D

[cletus8269]

frankly its impressive that cars have gotten to this level of performance. i grew up in the 220hp v8 era when buicks were winning stoplight showdowns with their wolf in sheeps clothing turbo cars. the steady increase year after year is going to come to a head. the 94 z28 my dad bought new sitting in his garage still puts a smile on my face and yet it could handle what FoMoCo was dishing out in 99 with its humble lt1 optispark, nevermind the ls1's. but i also remember when the mighty 5.0's were a force to be reckoned with on any day that ended with y. the point is bragging rights come and go and theres always going to be a wait til next year argument. the mustang sounds great looks great, but the camaro wins in my book because i'd plunk money down on it before the mustang. unabashed brand loyalty (which deep down we all have), so what of it? heheh

[El Kabong]

My Mustang had a four-barrel V8 that threw down all of 190hp stock. But times move on.

[FordCosworth]

Drew,

It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

 

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done.  Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point.  It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine.

 

All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap?  That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap.

 2015-11-28.png

 

Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage?  I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang.  I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production.

B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is

2+ seconds behind on that specific lap.

C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system?

According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like.

I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner.

Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest.

Type of victory I'm content with? I was more content with the GT350R's victory over a Viper ACR, Corvette Z06, 488GTB, ATS-V, AMG GTS etc etc than having the GT350R beat up on a Z/28.

The GT350R has shown to be excellence of execution.

Well then, if that's he victory you want to hang your hat on...

You're off topic. We have a thread for that already.

Sheesh. Youse guys :D

Victories.

[surreal1272]

Yes, hang your hat on the NEW GT350R beating the outgoing Z/28. It was a well deserved showing by the GT350R and it is certainly a change from the NEW GT getting beaten by the NEW SS earlier this month (by more sizable performance margin than the other two). Now, we will see what GM has in store next year. Again, it's a great time to be a fan of these cars, no matter your allegiance. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

Yes, hang your hat on the NEW GT350R beating the outgoing Z/28. It was a well deserved showing by the GT350R and it is certainly a change from the NEW GT getting beaten by the NEW SS earlier this month (by more sizable performance margin than the other two). Now, we will see what GM has in store next year. Again, it's a great time to be a fan of these cars, no matter your allegiance.

I'm hanging my hat on the victory over the Z06, Viper ACR, ATS-V, 488GTB etc etc along with the victory over Z/28.

[surreal1272]

Some people can't even take a simple complement about their favorite car without a snide remark. Tsk tsk tsk.

[FordCosworth]

Some people can't even take a simple complement about their favorite car without a snide remark. Tsk tsk tsk.

Unlike your NEW GT/NEW Camaro bit, there was nothing snide about my comment.

[El Kabong]

Some people can't even take a simple complement about their favorite car without a snide remark. Tsk tsk tsk.

Unlike your NEW GT/NEW Camaro bit, there was nothing snide about my comment.

Well, that's open to debate. To say the least.

But as I said previously, this Head2Head is probably not a good thing to be crowing about so much. As far as your off-topic mention of the R&T drivers car thing, there was a guy who wrote a piece on the Camaro SS. He said that ya, the Mustang won, but that was before he drove the Camaro.

Dun-dun-dun.

[FordCosworth]

Some people can't even take a simple complement about their favorite car without a snide remark. Tsk tsk tsk.

Unlike your NEW GT/NEW Camaro bit, there was nothing snide about my comment.

Well, that's open to debate. To say the least.

But as I said previously, this Head2Head is probably not a good thing to be crowing about so much. As far as your off-topic mention of the R&T drivers car thing, there was a guy who wrote a piece on the Camaro SS. He said that ya, the Mustang won, but that was before he drove the Camaro.

Dun-dun-dun.

It shouldn't be open for debate. Snide this, snide that will turn this into a train wreck.

As far as me mentioning the R&T PCOTY Win. Well it does encompass one of the vehicles this here thread and the H2H Topic...Camaro SS, nope.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

 

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

 

 

 

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration.  Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

And they don't show gear ratios, throttle tip in, blind spots, sight lines, chassis reflexes, steering ease and accuracy, clutch engagement, brake feel...

 

 

Yeah, and none of those things except for the first two you mentioned have diddly squat to do with acceleration feel. The Z/28 has excellent throttle response. And it's geared well. So what, exactly, was the purpose of your post again?

[ccap41]

 

 

 

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

 

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

 

 

 

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration.  Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you.

 

When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that.

[Frisky Dingo]

It's fun to become 'magazine racers' and talk up a product or two from your favorite brand of choice, especially when we are talking about $70K track biased cars that are all but useless for day to day commutes. And I think we are all honest enough here to recognize that each and every automakers best product in these segments is merely a function of their efforts put forth, not their actual abilities. 

 

But I am more excited about a portfolio of performance products that not only lifts an entire brand higher, but each and every segment that it offers customers an option in.  Especially when they offer performance in affordable segments that people can live with daily. And with 12-14 vehicles soon filling their portfolio, I would say they will soon be holding all the cards. Literally.

 

 

 

....and finally, if somebody wants more speed in the Mustang, there is plenty of price difference to accommodate them.

 

Only a magazine racer who hasn't driven either car thinks they are useless for daily driving. With less aggressive rolling stock, I assure you they are totally capable of doing so.

 

Also, for about the bajillionth time, the price difference in reality is in the Camaro's favor. Big time.,

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

 

No, but I can read a dyno graph.

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

 

 

 

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration.  Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you.

 

When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that.

 

 

 

I'm going to do you a favor and pretend like you didn't just say any of that. In the interest of you still having credibility. Because I like you.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

 

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

 

 

 

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration.  Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you.

 

When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that.

 

 

 

I'm going to do you a favor and pretend like you didn't just say any of that. In the interest of you still having credibility. Because I like you.

 

Are you serious? When these high strung motors are spinning at 5000 rpm and up that torque advantage at 2000 rpm doesn't mean anything and when you're racing you're not just hanging out at 2000rpm. If your scenario was the case why did the GT350R  win the quarter mile sprint with a higher trap speed as well? It couldn't have just been the 150lb advantage. If low-mid range torque was that critical I don't think there would have ever been a flat plane crank v8 into production.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I enjoy talking extreme car smack like the rest of you, and please don’t bore us with claims you don’t.  This is why most of you are here, repeatedly.  And had the R been beat by the Z, and regardless of how close, this thread would be twice as long by now with the same cast of characters doing what they do.  And all of you know this.

 

Mustang got the win over the CURRENT Camaro being sold and profited from.

Best part is, Mustang owners have another $10G’s to play with to squeeze even more performance out of where Ford left off. 

And that could buy quite a bit of performance btw. 

So if GM follows up with something one day, we will have to then compare it to what Ford is selling at that time as well.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Wings4Life

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

 

Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.

And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

 

 

 

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration.  Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you.

 

When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that.

 

 

 

I'm going to do you a favor and pretend like you didn't just say any of that. In the interest of you still having credibility. Because I like you.

 

Are you serious? When these high strung motors are spinning at 5000 rpm and up that torque advantage at 2000 rpm doesn't mean anything and when you're racing you're not just hanging out at 2000rpm. If your scenario was the case why did the GT350R  win the quarter mile sprint with a higher trap speed as well? It couldn't have just been the 150lb advantage. If low-mid range torque was that critical I don't think there would have ever been a flat plane crank v8 into production.

 

 

As a heart attack. That torque gap is going to felt on the street in day-to-day driving. The only person talking about drag racing is you. 

 

Hell, even the regular 5.0 feels soft down low.