Motor Trend Head2Head: GT350R vs. Z/28

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

The sound of the Ford doesn't tickle my girdle any more or less than the LS7...  They both sound great to me and I wouldn't be choosing one or the other based on their respective engine notes. 

 

 

Alone, perhaps not.,

But the many other virtues, like linear and instant throttle response, better steering feel, etc. might do it for you. No?

It's another example of Ford doing things differently, as opposed to necessarily doing it better. Full props for the rev range and sound, but it ain't invincible by a long shot.

 

 

It won, so, yeah.....better

 

 

Better steering feel and better braking feel, I'll give you.  But as they showed in the video, in terms of actual skill, the steering and brakes are pretty much unflappable in their performance in both cars.

 

The fast reving while not in gear doesn't impress me any.  The guy in the video talked about it in terms of "blip-ability".... and I'm thinking.... "so what? All you're doing it making noise, it doesn't really factor into the driving." When in gear, the transmission and what gear you're in are a far greater factor for how quickly the engine revs.

 

I guess these are the things that I think about with this comparison:

 

The brand new mustang beat an out of production Camaro that is riding on a chassis that began development in 1999 and the engine is from 2004-5... and yet in spite of the Mustang being brand new, it beat the mustang just barely and in no small part to non-performance related factors like engine sound and fast revving (as I addressed above).

 

 I'm a guy that likes sleepers.... swift and silent, where results matter more than showing off.   That either makes me a terrible judge of Hi-Po performance cars or an excellent one as I am not distracted by "flair".  In this case, the results are that a newly developed Mustang with just about every trick Ford has up its sleeve thrown at it just barely beat out an older out of production Camaro.  Yes it won, but don't expect me to jump out of my seat in excitement. 

 

I'm not the kind of guy that likes ostentatious displays of potential performance. Things like loud engines and blipping of throttles are demerits to me because they don't actually contribute anything  to the end result. Also, much of the time that performance is only any good in the hands of someone actually able to handle it..... most people can't even handle a Corolla at 7/10ths... so just sitting there revving an engine proves nothing.

 

 

I've driven the ATS-V and CTS-V multiple times. Both cars are a remarkable improvement over the Zeta car. On the track I can keep right with a professionally driven Z-06 Stingray (Except on the straights in the ATS) and while I'm trained, I'm not in any way practiced.  MT in another video calls the ATS-V the best balanced and best composed chassis ever built..... so I feel like I've had a sneak peek into what the Z/28 will be capable of. 

[El Kabong]

Yup.

It's a fair and square win. But for the reasons you said and more I don't expect it to hold the title for any length of time.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sorry if I am a bit repetitive in that last post, I'm typing in between cooking a second thanksgiving dinner for tonight and I don't feel like re-writing it. 

[surreal1272]

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? 

[ccap41]

I do not recall anyone saying that it didn't win the Head2Head.

But by the same token I'm not too concerned, either by the margin of victory or the time and manner in which GM can respond.

It's a nice victory. But let's not forget it was once again against an out-of-production car.

I actually don't think it's out of production yet. The video said it will be soon and it's still available on chevy's website.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

I do not recall anyone saying that it didn't win the Head2Head.

But by the same token I'm not too concerned, either by the margin of victory or the time and manner in which GM can respond.

It's a nice victory. But let's not forget it was once again against an out-of-production car.

I actually don't think it's out of production yet. The video said it will be soon and it's still available on chevy's website.

 

 

Production ended November 20th.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

[surreal1272]

 

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

 

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

 

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

 

 

I thought that's what you were doing.

Price of admission for the features needed to close that gap, that's why.

 

Z does it as well.

But Imaging paying far more yet for the Z on top of that R.

[ccap41]

I do not recall anyone saying that it didn't win the Head2Head.

But by the same token I'm not too concerned, either by the margin of victory or the time and manner in which GM can respond.

It's a nice victory. But let's not forget it was once again against an out-of-production car.

I actually don't think it's out of production yet. The video said it will be soon and it's still available on chevy's website.

 

Production ended November 20th.

Makes since then. They probably had the video and cars well before then, then. Thanks for the clarification, Drew!

[Frisky Dingo]

One other thing I'd like to note-

 

Once upon a time, MT did a Mustang GT vs BMW M3 test, and all the Ford fans were the first to talk about simply because the M3 was almost matched by the much cheaper GT's numbers, the M3 wasn't worth the price, and all the subjective things like 'feel', 'sound', 'quality', and the like were things that could easily be discounted. But now that we have a Ford here that sounds exotic, has a better interior, and more refined and livable drive, in other words, the 'intangibles', it's some kind of grand accomplishment. It's funny how quickly we change the bar we use to measure with when our product of choice is in question. 

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm late to the party here. I was brutally hungover most of yesterday then went out for thanksgiving dinner.

 

First off, congrats to the GT350R. Very impressive showing, I honestly did not know what to expect from the R after seeing the preliminary handling tests of the standard model. The upgrade in performance is staggering, and the carbon fiber wheels are every bit as important as the Z/28's carbon ceramic brakes. 3 mph trap speed improvement over the 1/4 mile is just crazy without upgrading the drivetrain. The lap time victory is undeniable proof of this Mustang's superiority at the track.

 

It's a shame the GT350R couldn't make it to Best Driver's Car because it would be awesome seeing consecutive years go to jaw dropping American pony cars.

 

Love seeing the LS7 dyno chart. That engine has always over-delivered, it's exceptional, and still my favorite engine note of all time. It sounds like the incredible hulk had a love child with a banshee from hell. If I had sh*t tons of money lying around, I'd seriously consider shopping for one of the heavily discounted Z/28s out there.

[El Kabong]

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

 

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

 

 

I thought that's what you were doing.

Price of admission for the features needed to close that gap, that's why.

 

Z does it as well.

But Imaging paying far more yet for the Z on top of that R.

 

So 1/20th more performance for 1/4th to 1/3rd more in price. That's all I needed to know.

 

BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do.

[Suaviloquent]

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

 

But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves.

 

They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation.

 

Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable....

[FordCosworth]

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"?

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R?

[cp-the-nerd]

 

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

 

But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves.

 

They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation.

 

Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable....

 

 

The Z/28 had hella expensive components. Hand built LS7, spool valve F1 style shocks, supercar wheels/tires, and carbon ceramic brakes.

[Suaviloquent]

Indeed CP. But I think the Zeta being a paid-off platform meant that they didn't have to spread the fixed costs for its development on each unit of the Camaro in its later years.

 

If the next Z/28 uses these same awesome components as well, it'll easily be the kind of vehicle people should be expected to pay a retail price of $100,000 or even more.

 

I probably did use the wrong word "hella" does not really fit now that I look at it again. Good catch CP. Anyways, I'm guessing the Z/28 didn't have the impetus to break-even nearly as much as the GT350 with a new engine and new suspension technology for the first time used by Ford.

 

I'll stop the profit banter now, as it's completely irrelevant as these are low-volume niche products...

 

GM and Ford, make money meng. Make as much possible, crush it meng.

 

(The unscrupulous businessperson in me salivates when companies make a profit and maximize it by charging an exorbitant market price for a truly quality product, easy-peasy lemon squeezy)

[El Kabong]

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

 

But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves.

 

They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation.

 

Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable....

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves.

They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation.

Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable....

The Z/28 is a bit different of a discount proposition because of the things that made it unique, I suppose. If you were a member of the "Ziploc-bag it for Barrett-Jackson in 30 years" club you would probably be drooling right now. But for GM it's just an old car that needs to be broomed, ASAP. Fancy parts or not, it's gotta go. It's made cash for the corporation. But the new ones about to debut in all likelihood, and it's going to inevitably be better.

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"?

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R?

 

Since you just jumped in without reading the follow up to that reply, I will just that maybe you should read what I said afterwards to Wings. Let me help you out so it doesn't take up too much of your valuable time. And I quote,

 

"BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do."

 

BTW, if you think that the GT350R is actually going to sell for MSRP, as opposed to the obvious $10K minimum mark up that will occur, then I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

Edited November 28, 2015 by surreal1272

[Frisky Dingo]

Again, in the real world- you know, where we all live (most of us, anyway)- the Z/28 is cheaper to buy than a GT350-R. Much cheaper.

[FordCosworth]

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"?

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R?

Since you just jumped in without reading the follow up to that reply, I will just that maybe you should read what I said afterwards to Wings. Let me help you out so it doesn't take up too much of your valuable time. And I quote,

 

"BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do."

 

BTW, if you think that the GT350R is actually going to sell for MSRP, as opposed to the obvious $10K minimum mark up that will occur, then I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

I could care less what YOU would buy. You said " if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? "

Using your line of questioning, I'll ask again, why would someone purchase a 13% more expensive Z/28 over a GT350R that performs better on the street, track and strip while costing less?

[FordCosworth]

Again, in the real world- you know, where we all live (most of us, anyway)- the Z/28 is cheaper to buy than a GT350-R. Much cheaper.

So GM is putting 20k on the hood?

[Suaviloquent]

Ford is using engineered exclusivity to help dealers have massive mark-ups. Everyone should know that. Does it matter for pricing, honestly, if a Z/28 beats GT3s and GT-Rs and the Shelby by precedent is capable of doing the same...

 

They're both still under-priced. 

 

But Z/28 for 50 to 60 large, that is exceptional value.

[FordCosworth]

Where are these brand new 15 - 20k of the 75k MSRP Z/28's?

[surreal1272]

 

 

What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R.  I love the tiered performance steps.  I wonder if GM will follow that path instead of one size fits all.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"?

 

 

Seriously?

 

A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford.

And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less.

That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car?

Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R?

Since you just jumped in without reading the follow up to that reply, I will just that maybe you should read what I said afterwards to Wings. Let me help you out so it doesn't take up too much of your valuable time. And I quote,

 

"BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do."

 

BTW, if you think that the GT350R is actually going to sell for MSRP, as opposed to the obvious $10K minimum mark up that will occur, then I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

I could care less what YOU would buy. You said " if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? "

Using your line of questioning, I'll ask again, why would someone purchase a 13% more expensive Z/28 over a GT350R that performs better on the street, track and strip while costing less?

Which was based of off Wings own "guesstimation", which was "What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R" and "A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford. And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less."

 

Maybe you missed the source of this "formula". And you you do care or you would have not bothered to respond.

 

Again, BOTH the Z/28 and GT350R are overpriced in respect to the next step down variants of BOTH cars. I am really not sure what you are having a problem with here other than to try and attack me.

Edited November 28, 2015 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Are you really equating asking you a question as attacking?

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[surreal1272]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

[FordCosworth]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

[surreal1272]

 

 

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

 

Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.

 

Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Edited November 28, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

Again, in the real world- you know, where we all live (most of us, anyway)- the Z/28 is cheaper to buy than a GT350-R. Much cheaper.

Oh, definitely. It's just the nature of the biz. Someone who's gotta have the new Shelby will pay more, someone looking for a screaming bargain on a 427 Camaro will pay less. Each one will be happy with their purchase, although neither one's logic will be flawless in the process.

Trust me on that last one-I BOUGHT an early Zeta SS

[FordCosworth]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.

Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.

Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ".

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[Suaviloquent]

Okay, I have to say it's a pretty bad question being asked.

 

There is a such a thing as product obsolescence at the end of a product cycle.

 

No one is going to be paying more for a Z/28 than a GT350R. Answer is no one.

 

MSRP is the manufacturer's suggested price, dealers can sell the Z.28 for lower, and FriskyDingo is a witness who can attest to reasons why because HE works in the dealership business. Why would a Z/28 have big discounts now? Uhh.. I can't explain such a simple thing.

 

Please drop the question, it's going no where. 

[El Kabong]

[self-edit, Suave beat me to it]

Edited November 28, 2015 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.

Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.

Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ".

Your lack of context and comprehension is evident and not my problem because you want to pick and choose what part of the conversation to make your argument.

Now about the video...

[FordCosworth]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.

Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.

Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ".

Your lack of context and comprehension is evident and not my problem because you want to pick and choose what part of the conversation to make your argument.

Now about the video...

Your comment was easy to comprehend. Now it's the old classic " do as I say, not do ". As in I threw your logic back in your face and now you flop around like a fish outa water.

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[El Kabong]

Yup, it was a nice video.

[FordCosworth]

Yup, it was a nice video.

Yes it was. Especially once ALL the numbers came in.

[surreal1272]

^^^^^

Way to say a lot while not answering my question.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.

Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.

Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.

Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ".

Your lack of context and comprehension is evident and not my problem because you want to pick and choose what part of the conversation to make your argument.

Now about the video...

Your comment was easy to comprehend. Now it's the old classic " do as I say, not do ". As in I threw your logic back in your face and now you flop around like a fish outa water.

No sir Mr. Bill. It is the classic "you are reading only what you want to read instead of reading it in its full context with all parties involved".

What you can't comprehend is the fact that I have not once that I even preferred the Z28, not once. You assumed I did hence your silly price difference statement using the Z28 as the negative. In case you missed it a month or so ago, I had already stated that,

A. The GT350R is the best Mustang by a country mile.

And

B. That the GT350R will beat the Z28.

I can't make it any clearer for you why your initial question was 100% irrelevant from the get go.

Edited November 28, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

Yup. Can't believe the hp numbers. Who do you suppose was off by 20hp in their claims?

The 0-60 number was pretty cool too. 65 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to an Alpha SS?

A nice win.

But so, so far from invincible

Edited November 28, 2015 by El Kabong

[FordCosworth]

Yup. Can't believe the hp numbers. Who do you suppose was off by 20hp in their claims?

The 0-60 number was pretty cool too. 65 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to an Alpha SS?

A nice win.

But so, so far from invincible

Everyone and their dog knows a chassis dyno is in no shape or form an accurate way to measure crank HP.

And 75 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to a GT350R and Alpha SS. And as Randy put it ( see minute 15:17 ) a little bit numb at its limit.

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[El Kabong]

Oh.

It appears you never watched the video closely enough.

The out-of-production Z/28 beat the 350R to 60 too.

Golly

:D

...and I'm terribly sorry. But identical weather, same time and location, identical dyno?...

Well... golly again

Edited November 28, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

Yup.

So, so far from invincible :D

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Yup. Can't believe the hp numbers. Who do you suppose was off by 20hp in their claims?

The 0-60 number was pretty cool too. 65 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to an Alpha SS?

A nice win.

But so, so far from invincible

Everyone and their dog knows a chassis dyno is in no shape or form an accurate way to measure crank HP.

And 75 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to a GT350R and Alpha SS.

 

 

Crank horsepower is important in weed wackers and lawn mowers, but for motors attached to transmissions, they fail to tell the whole story.  Drivetrain losses matter... that's the reason we measure car horsepower at the wheels in these types of tests.

 

When measuring two cars on the same dyno and they show large deficiencies from stated horsepower (Ford) or insufficient drivetrain losses from stated horsepower (Chevy) means there is something up and needs to be looked into.  

 

We won't get the answer the questions here, but they are questions worth asking.

[El Kabong]

Indeed.

And as I alluded to earlier: if this is a case of GM underrating their stuff, then who's to say they aren't doing it elsewhere? We already know the ATS-V's engine wound up more powerful than expected.

[FordCosworth]

Oh.

It appears you never watched the video closely enough.

The out-of-production Z/28 beat the 350R to 60 too.

Golly

:D

...and I'm terribly sorry. But identical weather, same time and location, identical dyno?...

Well... golly again

I dunno about that.. When they show 0-60 @ 3.9, the camera is focused on GT350R, when the show 0-60 @ 4.0, the camera is looking at the Z/28, all while the Shelby keeps pulling away.

But focus on some dyno graph. I'll focus on the better track time, better 1/4 mile time and speed, better street car all at a better MSRP.

Edited November 28, 2015 by FordCosworth

[El Kabong]

Oh.

It appears you don't know about something called video editing.

So sorry. But the 350R is slower to 60. For sure.

I defer to Drew on the dyno stuff. As he said, questions have been raised.

[Drew Dowdell]

Indeed.

And as I alluded to earlier: if this is a case of GM underrating their stuff, then who's to say they aren't doing it elsewhere? We already know the ATS-V's engine wound up more powerful than expected.

 

On the sport oriented stuff, GM has been under rating for a while.  If it has a supercharger on it and built in the last 10 years, it is probably underrated...... one assumes that will be the case for the sport oriented Turbo V6es and Turbo V8 that are here or coming.

[FordCosworth]

Oh.

It appears you don't know about something called video editing.

So sorry. But the 350R is slower to 60. For sure.

I defer to Drew on the dyno stuff. As he said, questions have been raised.

You might want to look at that video again. At no point is the Z/28 ahead in the straight line drag. The Shelby, from dead stop, was always ahead.

Why so focused on 0-60 anyways? That's not what either cars purpose is.

I'll make it simple. The Z/28 lost. It lost at both track and strip, and lost at being the better street car.