Motor Trend Head2Head: GT350R vs. Z/28

[El Kabong]

Never let it be said that I am not an even-handed kinda guy. They put the Zeta Z/28 against the GT350R and it lost, fair and square. 2 tenths slower in the quarter, 1.4 slower around the road course they used. Still not a bad showing for a five year-old car and a ten year-old engine tho.

...also, there's the small matter of ONE of these cars being off by 25hp or so on their actual hp numbers. Either that, or one uses raw bitumen as gear lube.

In any event, here's the link:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLA97180860447EE6A&v=vtdtGgf1BF0

Edited November 26, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

...well. It appears that the cheering is a bit subdued.

Ok then: from a GM perspective there is some interesting stuff to take away from this one. Most notable is the apparent discrepancy in power and torque numbers as shown by the chassis dyno.

GM claimed 505hp and 481lb/ft of torque for the last run of LS7 engines. The chassis dyno, not surprisingly, showed a power loss at the rear wheels:

469hp-36 less horsepower

437lb/ft-44 less torques

Conversely, Ford claims 526hp and 429lb/ft for the 5.2. The dyno numbers here were less flattering:

471hp-55 less horsepower

375lb/ft-54 less torques

Food for thought, fer sure

[El Kabong]

Oops, just checked out the curb weights. The Ford weighs 3,714, the Z/28 weighs 3,882. Good on Ford-stripping out the back seat and using carbon fibre wheels really helped get the weight down to roughly Alpha Camaro levels.

[Suaviloquent]

Some of the track components that both cars have might be adding weight too, like beefier stuffs and whatnots and tyres and stuffs.

 

Are both engines SAE rated?

 

I would hesitate to say the Z/28 Camaro is 5 years old. It was such a transformation of the Zeta chassis, using MultiMatic DSSV parts, and I'd like to think it's almost a cross between an Alpha and Zeta chassis.

 

Heck, the S550 is for the most part just a derivative of the S197. Even Ford decidedly did disclose that much. It's more like S197 2.0 

 

Zeta 2.0 maybe? Anyways, I guess they approached the Z28 as what can we do to make a production car that probably is more akin to a standardized regime of adding excellent parts to transform the chassis? To me, it's almost as if it Chevrolet found the best aftermarket parts equivalents in terms of amazing noticeable improvements from suppliers, and just hammered way to make a track package that no one could possibly make without way more time and expense. The in-house engineering, testing and QA plus factory warranty is almost like a service that GM is doing onto an existing donor Camaro, except it's not. It's the way I understand it though.

 

The GT350R is the exact same to me as well. I think the GT350R equipped as it was for $66k is pretty good. You do get a fresher and yet more livable and equally hard-core car.

 

I couldn't care any more that the GT350R actually was better in the performance tests. They're both excellent, but the GT350 throws in a different kind of aural experience and is just more refined. The price isn't much ado, the dealer markups on the GT350R are ludicrous while the Z/28, you don't really have to worry as much about the extra expense.

[El Kabong]

I understand that the Ford's interior is newer and therefore better. I get that magnetic ride is better when it's properly sorted. And if the Z/28 was still being built it would have a price disadvantage.

But I look at the Shelby's curb weight and think "carbon wheels and no back seats only get you to the weight of a stock SS?"

Then I look at the dyno sheets and think "is the Voodoo overrated or the LS7 underrated?"

Finally, I look at the margins of victory. Even if you only consider the Z/28 a three year-old car... It's a three year-old car. With a ten year-old engine.

Bottom line: Congratulations, Ford. But they really haven't advanced the state of the art that much. I think GM has this under control.

Edited November 27, 2015 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

The GT350R only lost 10.4% from engine to wheels. I think the z28 is underrated.

To me one of the most telling comments from them was the numbness in the steering in the Z.

I'd also like to say that I called the superior corner exit strength of the 5.2 and its power band. Gobs and gobs of low end and mid range torque are great for driving every day but when you're trying to put the power down at the limit its that much tougher. The progressive power band of a flat plane crank make it easier to get the power to the ground.

[Suaviloquent]

What we have to remember is that these hard core models have never been about being state of the art. Again, they're more of just a hell of a convenience for people who don't have to end up modding their cars with the benefits of a production car engineering, build quality, signature car styling and a warranty. No need to retro-fit, you get the track machine straight from the manufacturer of the base car.

 

So of course, what matters more is the platform underneath. I expect hi-po versions of the Alpha Camaro to be flawless when it comes to performance because of what Alpha is capable of, and possibly crushing the performance value quotient even further.

 

Now, for Ford to pull a last gen style Chevy SS 1LE performance victory over the current Mustang GT PP; against the Alpha Camaro SS, will require an indomitable amount of effort during their mid-cycle in 2018. 

 

But there is only so much that can be done to a D2C chassis already stripped and reworked for whatever Ford thought was modern in 2011/2. Because that's what the Mustang really is today. Chevy has pulled ahead by 2-3 model years at the bare minimum now. 

 

For the Mustang, it's going to be a long wait now for a crack at redemption, possibly what CD6 might bring, while Chevy prepares its 2017/18 Camaro variants.

[El Kabong]

Let us say for the sake of argument that Chevy does NOT debut some kind of engine upgrade over the LT1 for the Camaro in Detroit in January. What would it take to get it to go toe to toe with the 350R regardless?

Let's start with a 1SS six-speed. It weighs 3,670 pounds. Now, let's leave the carbon wheels to Ford and let them be the guinea pigs. Instead, just carry over the carbon ceramic brakes from the Z/28. That'll save 5 pounds per corner. While we're at it, let's also take 19" rims of similar width and construction too. Maybe another 2 pounds per corner? So we have about 30 pounds shaved off, at a price bump of, say, 8 grand over the 1SS. Then, screw it. Throw in the Zedder's Recaros too, for another 20 pounds lost.

Throw out the back seat. Another 20 pounds, and trim a bit of coin off the price. And just like that you're at 3,600 pounds, with upgraded brakes and tires, with no loss of electronic goodies and a decent stereo. All for about 45 grand.

Now, if you want to push it to 50, let's talk carbon fibre hood and trunklid for an expensive way to shave 20 pounds, and a smaller-amperage battery as a cheap way to shave another 10.

At this point you're comfortably 200 pounds lighter than a 350R. For fifteen grand less.

No worries.

[El Kabong]

Edit: make that 150 pounds or so. Still

[FordCosworth]

GT350R

 

Better.

[ccap41]

The 1SS does not come with the magnetic shocks will be necessary on the theoretic car. Add back, what, 5-10lbs a corner over a conventional shock/strut? Why do you think a larger overall wheel will weigh less than the aluminum wheels that are already on the car?

I don't think your weight loss goal is unrealistic but I think your pricing is unrealistic. This performance car you speak of will only cost a couple grand over a 2SS? I just don't think that is realistic. Personally, I think it would come in closer to GT350 price than 1SS price.

[El Kabong]

The 1SS does not come with the magnetic shocks will be necessary on the theoretic car. Add back, what, 5-10lbs a corner over a conventional shock/strut? Why do you think a larger overall wheel will weigh less than the aluminum wheels that are already on the car?

I don't think your weight loss goal is unrealistic but I think your pricing is unrealistic. This performance car you speak of will only cost a couple grand over a 2SS? I just don't think that is realistic. Personally, I think it would come in closer to GT350 price than 1SS price.

The pricing is pretty realistic as far as I can figure. The 1SS is a legit 37 large (or 36 depending on source). The brakes add 6-ish grand, the rims about an extra grand (smaller diameter offsets better alloy), the carbon fibre bits five grand. You save cash on the back seats going away, and you take that savings and throw it on another grand for the Recaros. The battery is small potatoes. Poof-50 large.

The 2SS costs what it does because of the bling it provides, as well as mass. Neither is desirable for a GT350R fighter (which, let's not forget, offers an electronics package as an option). Even if you want to throw in the added weight and cost of magnetic ride you're still looking at a 52-grand car that has a 140-ish pound advantage over MT's test Shelby.

And that's not even touching the engine.

[FordCosworth]

 a thread about how the GT350R is the better street car, better track car, and better ( even though neither are designed for it ) dragster. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by Drew Dowdell
removed re-trolling stuff

[surreal1272]

 

There is no surprise that the new GT350R beat the outgoing (and no longer in production) Z/28. It is a top notch drivers car that is oodles of fun on the track and the road. Going to be great to see what Chevy counters with in the next year or so. The SS is already close to that to begin with.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Drew Dowdell
Removed Re-Trolling

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

GT350R

 

Better.

 

This.

[Drew Dowdell]

Had to clean up a bunch of posts and hand out some warning points. Keep it about the cars, not about the people.

[El Kabong]

I do not recall anyone saying that it didn't win the Head2Head.

But by the same token I'm not too concerned, either by the margin of victory or the time and manner in which GM can respond.

It's a nice victory. But let's not forget it was once again against an out-of-production car.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

[Suaviloquent]

Again, It's Ford sliding right into a market that Chevy has left. Pretty simple for them, exceed the Camaro in every way and deliver it for a lower MSRP.

 

Plus I think they inflated the price because of the FPC. But they had to as well, it's a recent engine versus the LS7 which had already served duty for quite a while.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

No, it's Ford regaining the crown of a segment it created.

[El Kabong]

All well and good. But again, I see nothing about the new boss (ahem) that was a quantum leap ahead of the old boss. Indeed, I iust laid out a perfectly plausible scenario where GM could do a car of the 350Rs equal using leftovers, a bone-stock LT1, and a price tag well over ten grand less.

From a GM guy's perspective this is not a big deal at all. The most complicated part may be which method to use to regain the crown, and how soon do you want to do it.

Edited November 27, 2015 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that. There is no 2016 Z/28 and Chevrolet is just selling the remaining 2015 Z28s still on dealer lots.

Edited November 27, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

He appears to be upset that we are not upset. Strange.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

[surreal1272]

 

 

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

 

Don't try to change the argument that YOU started. You claimed that they are still in production, because they are still on Chevy's website, which means nothing and that has been proven. Don't get angry because you are wrong. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Angry?

My friend, I am pretty excited at yet another win for Mustang.

And I am not the one arguing semantics in this thread over and over.

 

Nice try though

Edited November 27, 2015 by Wings4Life

[El Kabong]

Nobody is arguing semantics.

The Mustang won over an outgoing model.

GM is in superb shape as far as options to respond.

I'm a happy camper. Indeed, I'm thrilled. After all, the dyno sheets appear to show that GM has discovered a way to underrate their engines again. As far as we know the SS may actually be a 475hp car.

Edited November 27, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Nobody is arguing semantics.

The Mustang won over an outgoing model.

GM is in superb shape as far as options to respond.

I'm a happy camper. Indeed, I'm thrilled. After all, the dyno sheets appear to show that GM has discovered a way to underrate their engines again. As far as we know the SS may actually be a 475hp car.

 

 

uhhh, yes he was....production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book.

 

 

But I do thank you for acknowledging the win.

[El Kabong]

Production and availability are not the same thing. Everyone knows the lots cannot clear before the production line does.

C'mon man

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Production and availability are not the same thing. Everyone knows the lots cannot clear before the production line does.

C'mon man

 

In the context of available competition from Chevrolet, they are clearly semantics.

 

Thanks for mirroring his efforts though

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

 

 

So I trust we will see no more posts on rumored future Ford products then?

 

The Z/28 is pretty much a given as most of the development work is done already. 

[surreal1272]

Angry?

My friend, I am pretty excited at yet another win for Mustang.

And I am not the one arguing semantics in this thread over and over.

 

Nice try though

So those previous three posts were not you arguing over and over again? Okay then. 

 

BTW, while the win is nice for the GT350R and well deserved given all the work that Ford put into it, it's the only Mustang variant to come away with a win (Best drivers car being the other). It sure hasn't been the GT or the Eco-Boost (I won't even bring up the rental model V6).

[El Kabong]

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

 

So I trust we will see no more posts on rumored future Ford products then?

 

The Z/28 is pretty much a given as most of the development work is done already.

And realistically we all know that. I have no problems with the best Mustang Ford can build beating something GM no longer builds. If I did, why would I start this thread?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

 

 

So I trust we will see no more posts on rumored future Ford products then?

 

The Z/28 is pretty much a given as most of the development work is done already. 

 

 

Weak sauce Drew.

GM advertises the ultra premium Z on the website, and that is what was compared and that is what we are discussing.  Talking future product is fine, and we all do it and we all know it.

 

I did not in any way suggest we should not.  

[Drew Dowdell]

Building the 2017 Camaro Z/28 in three easy steps:

1. Copy - Paste chassis and suspension setup from ATS-V

2. Copy - Paste 6.3 liter S/C V8 from Corvette Z06  (Detuned to 640hp..... on paper)

3. Delete rear seat, speakers, and radio.

 

Of course it's more involved than that in reality... but that will be the very basic formula.

 

And looking at the ATS-V, it would mean a Z28 with 600hp - 650hp at around 3800 lbs. (I'm estimating weight to be the same as the ATS because of increased engine weight, counter balancing weight reductions elsewhere). 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Building the 2017 Camaro Z/28 in three easy steps:

1. Copy - Paste chassis and suspension setup from ATS-V

2. Copy - Paste 6.3 liter S/C V8 from Corvette Z06  (Detuned to 640hp..... on paper)

3. Delete rear seat, speakers, and radio.

 

Of course it's more involved than that in reality... but that will be the very basic formula.

 

And looking at the ATS-V, it would mean a Z28 with 600hp - 650hp at around 3800 lbs. (I'm estimating weight to be the same as the ATS because of increased engine weight, counter balancing weight reductions elsewhere). 

 

I think they should keep the Z as NA.  It will no doubt include their monster 7.0L motor and with a bit more power combined with less weight, it should/could outrun the Shelby.  

 

But even when it does, I doubt we will see the type of speechless reactions witnessed in this video and pretty much any video whereby a drive gets behind the wheel of demonic flat plane screaming V8.  That is more than half the win for me.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

 

It it is out of production, then perhaps GM needs to change their Camaro perofrmance web page. It is front and center in fact.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that.

 

 

If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again.  And you know that.

 

 

So I trust we will see no more posts on rumored future Ford products then?

 

The Z/28 is pretty much a given as most of the development work is done already. 

 

 

Weak sauce Drew.

GM advertises the ultra premium Z on the website, and that is what was compared and that is what we are discussing.  Talking future product is fine, and we all do it and we all know it.

 

I did not in any way suggest we should not.  

 

 

Chevy also offers the 2015 Volt on their website even though it has been out of production for months. The Mustang won against an out of production but still offered for sale Camaro Z/28. Looking at that win and ignoring the fact that the Z/28 is coming is what is weak sauce. Maybe you'd like to post a comparison test between the GT350R and the old Pontiac GTO as well?  It would make as much sense if you posted a "win" in a match up between the C-Max Energi and the 2015 Volt while ignoring that the 2016 Volt is much improved.

[El Kabong]

Are there still old Rangers knocking around lots? Maybe they'll do a conparo versus the Canyon.

It's all a bit silly really

[El Kabong]

But even when it does, I doubt we will see the type of speechless reactions witnessed in this video and pretty much any video whereby a drive gets behind the wheel of demonic flat plane screaming V8.  That is more than half the win for me.

Ya. About that...

Cammisa stopped being speechless once he got those dyno sheets out and realized that either the Mustang was down 20hp or the Camaro was up 20hp. He mentioned it repeatedly. It's not much good to have sound and fury if it signifies nothing. Once it became apparent that the power was the same then it was the weight and chassis tune that became the obvious suspects in the win.

GM has a couple of ways to aporoach the problem. Whichever one it takes will be effective.

[surreal1272]

 

But even when it does, I doubt we will see the type of speechless reactions witnessed in this video and pretty much any video whereby a drive gets behind the wheel of demonic flat plane screaming V8.  That is more than half the win for me.

Ya. About that...

Cammisa stopped being speechless once he got those dyno sheets out and realized that either the Mustang was down 20hp or the Camaro was up 20hp. He mentioned it repeatedly. It's not much good to have sound and fury if it signifies nothing. Once it became apparent that the power was the same then it was the weight and chassis tune that became the obvious suspects in the win.

GM has a couple of ways to aporoach the problem. Whichever one it takes will be effective.

 

While that flat plane motor puts out a wonderful note, touting that so many times as such a big plus is the equivalent of being more impressed with dog's bark as opposed to the bite that does the real damage. I just don't get the hype of how something sounds over how it actually performs.

[Drew Dowdell]

The sound of the Ford doesn't tickle my girdle any more or less than the LS7...  They both sound great to me and I wouldn't be choosing one or the other based on their respective engine notes. 

[El Kabong]

It's another example of Ford doing things differently, as opposed to necessarily doing it better. Full props for the rev range and sound, but it ain't invincible by a long shot.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

The sound of the Ford doesn't tickle my girdle any more or less than the LS7...  They both sound great to me and I wouldn't be choosing one or the other based on their respective engine notes. 

 

 

Alone, perhaps not.,

But the many other virtues, like linear and instant throttle response, better steering feel, etc. might do it for you. No?

It's another example of Ford doing things differently, as opposed to necessarily doing it better. Full props for the rev range and sound, but it ain't invincible by a long shot.

 

 

It won, so, yeah.....better

Edited November 27, 2015 by Wings4Life

[El Kabong]

It beat an out of production car. I'm cool with that. You're the one who appears to be upset.

Edited November 27, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

Here's what we all have to keep in mind with the current Mustang-Camaro wars: this is perhaps the first time ever when both cars have had new platforms at the same time. Therefore, the "wait'll next year!" factor is going to fade away quite a bit shortly-the model slates for both cars will be filled and the chips will fall where they may.

We already know where they have fallen as far as the mainstream V8s go. We will have to see who will step up and do an EB vs. 3.6 comparo to see how that shakes out, as well as the base cars. But as a GM guy looking over the awards and praise the Camaro LINEUP is getting, and knowing what I know about their hi-po engines... Well, I think my guys have the better outlook.

[Frisky Dingo]

I wouldn't classify the Camaro's steering as numb. Not by a long shot. The Ford's may have more feel, but calling the Camaro's numb is just undue criticism to help justify the Mustang as the winner. At no other point have they levied such complaints at the Z/28. Overall, the car has great steering, at least to compared to other EPS systems on the market.

 

As for the comparo itself, I can't fault them for giving the Mustang the win. It performs as good or better, feels and looks more special, and it is undoubtedly more driveable on the street. Just no object, it's the one I'd have. Avalanche Gray sans stripes, thanks.

 

That said, I'd hope the R would beat the Z/28. As great as the Z is, it's using an outgoing platform, an engine that debuted 10 years ago, and has a replacement already undergoing development. For how big of an improvement the Z gained over the standard SS, and how good the new SS is, all we need at this point is an SS 1LE to have the GT350 covered. Then there's the whole isue of what it costs to buy these cars in the real world. You aren't going to be able to touch a new R for less than 10K mark up. And you can buy a new Z/28 for low 50's. Sorry, but you're not gonna make me think the Shelby is 25 grand better. At that point, I'll take the Camaro, throw in a more aggressive cam and heads, have the Mustang covered, and then by a DD with the left over.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

It beat an out of production car. I'm cool with that. You're the one who appears to be upset.

 

 

I am not the one who has distributed 3 pages of excuses as to why a certain product SOLD by GM is not up to snuff.

I am however the one who has a big smile on my face.

[El Kabong]

Why are you smiling? I think FriskyDingo nailed the outcome of the competition and gave a pretty good forecast as to what's going to go down.

[FordCosworth]

You can buy a new Z/28 for low 50k when they retail for 70+K?

 

In this video MSRP 66k for GT350R and 76k for Z/28

[El Kabong]

I wouldn't classify the Camaro's steering as numb. Not by a long shot. The Ford's may have more feel, but calling the Camaro's numb is just undue criticism to help justify the Mustang as the winner. At no other point have they levied such complaints at the Z/28. Overall, the car has great steering, at least to compared to other EPS systems on the market.

 

As for the comparo itself, I can't fault them for giving the Mustang the win. It performs as good or better, feels and looks more special, and it is undoubtedly more driveable on the street. Just no object, it's the one I'd have. Avalanche Gray sans stripes, thanks.

 

That said, I'd hope the R would beat the Z/28. As great as the Z is, it's using an outgoing platform, an engine that debuted 10 years ago, and has a replacement already undergoing development. For how big of an improvement the Z gained over the standard SS, and how good the new SS is, all we need at this point is an SS 1LE to have the GT350 covered. Then there's the whole isue of what it costs to buy these cars in the real world. You aren't going to be able to touch a new R for less than 10K mark up. And you can buy a new Z/28 for low 50's. Sorry, but you're not gonna make me think the Shelby is 25 grand better. At that point, I'll take the Camaro, throw in a more aggressive cam and heads, have the Mustang covered, and then by a DD with the left over.

GM has the deeper toolbox and the desire to use it. It worked for the SS, it's going to for the stuff about to debut. That simple

You can buy a new Z/28 for low 50k when they retail for 70+K?

 

In this video MSRP 66k for GT350R and 76k for Z/28

In the real world things are, how you say?... different