Lincoln News: Lincoln's Primary Focus: Core Segments

[surreal1272]

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

 

 

Camaro?

 

Wrong thread

 

Maybe you should read the entire conversation leading up to that statement before making silly accusations. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

 

 

Loooool

 

"3.       LS was a risk, and huge departure from the Town Cars of that day."

 

Terrible example. It was a risk that Ford immediately folded on and they haven't given RWD another shot since. One generation and they threw it away. This is the exact reason we have a line up of badge-engineered Lincolns. Meanwhile, Cadillac took a similar risk with the first gen CTS and built the brand's product renaissance off that RWD chassis.

 

"4.       Original EcoBoost was a Lincoln MKS, very risky too."

 

Putting a high output engine in a luxury car is not risky, it's par for the course. A risky ecoboost would be the last gen F150 with the 3.5EB. THAT was risk, and it was under the Ford brand. Lincoln didn't get the ecoboost Navigator until last year when Ford knew people would buy turbocharged trucks.

 

"5.       MKX was somewhat risky."

 

Building a luxury crossover when luxury crossovers are RAGING in the marketplace is about as risky as betting you'll hit sand if you fall off a Camel.

 

"7.       Hybrids"

 

Again, a badge engineered Ford is not in any way a risk. It's merely cost effective to spread their hybrid powertrain among multiple models.

 

"8.       400 hp sedans with sophisticated AWD systems are the latest."

 

Yes, it was... when Audi started doing it as a way to match BMW and Mercedes Benz. Was it risky when GM did it with the 410 hp XTS V-Sport two years ago? No. It's simply an expectation of luxury cars, and AWD is necessary without the benefit of RWD.

 

"9.       Aluminum bodied SUV soon."

 

Again, the risk was on the F150. Ford made sure it was a safe investment, now they'll apply it to other trucks/SUVs.

 

"11.   oh yeah, MKT was a huge risk."

 

The MKT was a badge engineered Ford Flex with the same powertrains as the MKS. I don't think you understand the concept of risk.

 

 

itemizing each opinion does not change the fact they were all risks to a degree.

 

And as far as the definition or risk, I would say that following the Germans lock-step is hardly a risk.

 

 

Lmao. You have provided no reasoning behind YOUR itemized list of "risks" and now you offer no rebuttal to my counterargument. I also see Drew has responded to your list in similar fashion.

 

You've made it abundantly clear you do not understand risk in the automotive industry. In fact, just about every move Ford makes with Lincoln is done to MINIMIZE risk:

 

-sharing platforms and powertrains

-testing any new technology on the Ford brand

-focusing on the highest profit luxury segments

-abandoning the unique split-wing design for the new derivative luxury mash-up design

 

Exactly. How is it a "risk" when they were never the first one in any of those developments he mentioned? Maybe he is confusing "risk" with "hey, let's follow Acura, Cadillac, and Lexus lead and put out a rebadged CUV and call it the MKX". 

[Suaviloquent]

I really can't take the comment that you are not a driveline kind of guy when you specifically tout driveline flexibility with the new platform, which is NOTHING new in the industry.

[Drew Dowdell]

The thing is... Lincoln will take risks when developing concept cars but they (so far) have completely failed to bring any of the most acclaimed concepts to market.

 

The 2002 Lincoln Continental Concept would have completely revitalized the brand's status. It was built on the DEW98 platform, and while some of the things like the rear doors and the trunk would not have made it into production, it would have been a fantastic flagship for Lincoln..... and it was completely buildable.  Had they built it, it probably would have come out as a 2004 and stolen a lot of thunder from the Chrysler 300 at the time.

 

 

Then there was the Lincoln MKR.  Also quite buildable and would have done a great job coming back as a Mark-Series.

 

 

 

 

 

Both of these show that Lincoln has the ideas... they just don't have the willpower. 

[El Kabong]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

One Ford: the millstone around Dearborn's neck. The glass ceiling that it cannot penetrate.

The Camaro is all the proof you need to know that the above statements are true.

Camaro?

Wrong thread

Maybe you should read the entire conversation leading up to that statement before making silly accusations.

Couldn't have said it better myself

The thing is... Lincoln will take risks when developing concept cars but they (so far) have completely failed to bring any of the most acclaimed concepts to market.

The 2002 Lincoln Continental Concept would have completely revitalized the brand's status. It was built on the DEW98 platform, and while some of the things like the rear doors and the trunk would not have made it into production, it would have been a fantastic flagship for Lincoln..... and it was completely buildable. Had they built it, it probably would have come out as a 2004 and stolen a lot of thunder from the Chrysler 300 at the time.

Then there was the Lincoln MKR. Also quite buildable and would have done a great job coming back as a Mark-Series.

Both of these show that Lincoln has the ideas... they just don't have the willpower.

Or perhaps the backing. Certainly they didn't when Mullaly was at the helm. Fields has promised D6 and that's a big improvement all by itself.

But it takes time. And time is definitely not on Lincoln's side anymore.

Edited November 25, 2015 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

This is the last chance Lincoln will ever get, that is for sure.

 

(Devil's advocate mode) Well, maybe being under the radar for this long is a blessing in disguise as a curse. For most lay people, Lincoln only carries the baggage of their decline, not their multiple revivals.

 

Then again, multiple revivals could themselves be indicator of decline. Right, scratch that blessing talk. 

 

So basically, they just have to do great, and doing great is by meeting hard arbitrary targets, that account for the future. 

 

Give us more horsepower than the rest, have absolutely the best fit and finish and carry a sense of shame in under-serving potential customers from the past. If you're not going for performance sedans, damn well give luxury that stands out. 

 

And this demand from picky luxury buyers doesn't mean trying to evoque the same reaction that someone gets by looking at BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes or Lexus or Jaguar or any other brand.

 

It means excellence of execution, excellence of exclusivity (depart from Ford as much as possible). And excellence in advancement in design and excellence in performance of intended function. 

 

For example, recent Cadillacs beat comparable BMWs in objective and subjective performance metrics.

 

Lincolns better have outstanding NVH, the softest and yet most durable cow-hide this side of a Maybach, have interior fit and finish of Lexus and Audi, and interior technology rivaling Volvo and Tesla.

 

Heck, Lincoln has to be an American Volvo for all intents and purposes. Anyways, if Lincoln fails, it'll be less a failure on their part, rather a telling sign how brands that are liberated from Ford do much better.

 

The last thing that needs to happen with the Continental and the products that follow, is for someone to say give Lincoln one more chance.

 

The Navigator better trounce the Champion that is the Escalade, not to mention thoroughly crush everyone else that the Escalade defeated. Not in sales. The Escalade has a reputation that took over a decade to build. 

 

That's a tall task, but for a brand to be revived, it has never been easy. Cadillac, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, have all had a product renaissance to varying degrees. 

 

And the disruptive CT6 must force Lincoln to be a price leader by significant margin in the flagship luxury sedan segment.

[smk4565]

If I were Lincoln I would make sure the Continaltal was nicer (more luxurious) than a Navigator (nicer than an Escalde even) and price it around $45,000.

I would want to sell the crap out of it because people buy what other people buy. The Lexus RX sells because it is popular. Suzy Mcmansion bought one, therefore Suzy SoccerMom must buy one. If they can make the Continental a hot car they can revive the brand.

I would make customers realize for the price of an RX350 you can get a flagship sedan and make it too good an offer to pass up. And I would be happy to lose money on every car sold to rebuild the brand.

[Suaviloquent]

If I were Lincoln I would make sure the Continaltal was nicer (more luxurious) than a Navigator (nicer than an Escalde even) and price it around $45,000.

I would want to sell the crap out of it because people buy what other people buy. The Lexus RX sells because it is popular. Suzy Mcmansion bought one, therefore Suzy SoccerMom must buy one. If they can make the Continental a hot car they can revive the brand.

I would make customers realize for the price of an RX350 you can get a flagship sedan and make it too good an offer to pass up. And I would be happy to lose money on every car sold to rebuild the brand.

 

That's the best scenario and Lincoln being rather out of touch with their recent product pricing isn't compelling me to think Lincoln is going to do what Lexus had to do to sell their LS.

[surreal1272]

If I were Lincoln I would make sure the Continaltal was nicer (more luxurious) than a Navigator (nicer than an Escalde even) and price it around $45,000.

I would want to sell the crap out of it because people buy what other people buy. The Lexus RX sells because it is popular. Suzy Mcmansion bought one, therefore Suzy SoccerMom must buy one. If they can make the Continental a hot car they can revive the brand.

I would make customers realize for the price of an RX350 you can get a flagship sedan and make it too good an offer to pass up. And I would be happy to lose money on every car sold to rebuild the brand.

You do realize that your price to luxury ratio (given your stated expectations by wanting it to be nicer than a $90K Escalade) has about a $40K gulf right? Hyundai can't do so I sure as hell know Lincoln can't at that price. That is simply pulling numbers and expectations out of thin air SMK. Could Mercedes do that for $45K?

Edited November 25, 2015 by surreal1272

[Suaviloquent]

Arrgh. Surreal, I hate to say this, but Lincoln needs volume for its sedans. Its crossovers sell decently enough. 

 

Selling as a price or loss leader for sedans, it's just an option that has to be on the table. 

 

Swallowing your pride is sometimes the only way to move forward. Cadillac did so. Why can't Lincoln? 

 

But everything we've been hearing from Ford recently is that they simply do not give a damn about unit volumes, they care about margins. But it's not going to propel their half-baked product into greatness. That's okay when you're serving a cash cow segment that you already lead. But it won't get product out the door, especially when it's considered inferior by everyone. Everyone. The odd Chinese buyer will get the keys to a Lincoln due to the same sentimental values its brings to them that historic American brands enjoy in China. Anyone else in America, they're again, it's sentimental at this point.

 

That's why an MKX with all the bells and whistles grazes $70,000. Let that sink in for a moment. There's a Volvo XC90 that does more with an even more "EcoBoost" in mentality engine and a finer interior and with a larger vehicle to boot. And it's priced less than $70,000 fully tilt. 

 

I will repeat how I was an unabashed Lincoln hopeful when the 2013 MKZ came out. I thought they would build on it. Instead we got 3 years of two stagnant product launches. No better or worse in terms of total vehicle concept and execution than the MKZ even though they were later model years.

 

If they had done a complete showroom overhaul with simultaneous launches of the MKZ,C, and X in 2013 as the vehicles are now, I'd be less harsh than I am now.

 

The Continental must either be a crazy hell of a vehicle and exclusive OR a concept at a production car price or a absolute price leader, and loss leader for the brand. 

 

It doesn't hurt to have it sell decently, because flagship sedan volumes have tumbled since the start of the millennium. 

[smk4565]

Lexus spent $1 billion in 1980s money to develop the LS, and they sold it at half the price of an S-class. It wasn't as good as an S-class, but it was close and far better than what Cadillac or Lincoln had in 1991. I am sure Lexus was losing money on every LS sold but they built the brand on it and look how by 2000 they had dethroned Cadillac and Lincoln.

Lincoln is in bad shape, even if they lose $10,000 on every Continental and sell 40,000 a year it is $400,000,000 loss. That could be the cost of jump starting the Lincoln brand and making it relevant again. $100 million per quarter won't sink Ford, and they will spend billions in product development and advertising anyway.

Cadillac isn't knocking on death's door. Cadillac also has far superior product to Lincoln. So Cadillac can undercut Lexus and the Germans slightly in price and try to compete that way to make up for image.

[surreal1272]

Lexus spent $1 billion in 1980s money to develop the LS, and they sold it at half the price of an S-class. It wasn't as good as an S-class, but it was close and far better than what Cadillac or Lincoln had in 1991. I am sure Lexus was losing money on every LS sold but they built the brand on it and look how by 2000 they had dethroned Cadillac and Lincoln.

Lincoln is in bad shape, even if they lose $10,000 on every Continental and sell 40,000 a year it is $400,000,000 loss. That could be the cost of jump starting the Lincoln brand and making it relevant again. $100 million per quarter won't sink Ford, and they will spend billions in product development and advertising anyway.

Cadillac isn't knocking on death's door. Cadillac also has far superior product to Lincoln. So Cadillac can undercut Lexus and the Germans slightly in price and try to compete that way to make up for image.

So what you are saying is that Ford should just lose money on a brand that is just now making them money? The face I am making right now is one of pure laughter. 

[surreal1272]

Arrgh. Surreal, I hate to say this, but Lincoln needs volume for its sedans. Its crossovers sell decently enough. 

 

Selling as a price or loss leader for sedans, it's just an option that has to be on the table. 

 

Swallowing your pride is sometimes the only way to move forward. Cadillac did so. Why can't Lincoln? 

 

But everything we've been hearing from Ford recently is that they simply do not give a damn about unit volumes, they care about margins. But it's not going to propel their half-baked product into greatness. That's okay when you're serving a cash cow segment that you already lead. But it won't get product out the door, especially when it's considered inferior by everyone. Everyone. The odd Chinese buyer will get the keys to a Lincoln due to the same sentimental values its brings to them that historic American brands enjoy in China. Anyone else in America, they're again, it's sentimental at this point.

 

That's why an MKX with all the bells and whistles grazes $70,000. Let that sink in for a moment. There's a Volvo XC90 that does more with an even more "EcoBoost" in mentality engine and a finer interior and with a larger vehicle to boot. And it's priced less than $70,000 fully tilt. 

 

I will repeat how I was an unabashed Lincoln hopeful when the 2013 MKZ came out. I thought they would build on it. Instead we got 3 years of two stagnant product launches. No better or worse in terms of total vehicle concept and execution than the MKZ even though they were later model years.

 

If they had done a complete showroom overhaul with simultaneous launches of the MKZ,C, and X in 2013 as the vehicles are now, I'd be less harsh than I am now.

 

The Continental must either be a crazy hell of a vehicle and exclusive OR a concept at a production car price or a absolute price leader, and loss leader for the brand. 

 

It doesn't hurt to have it sell decently, because flagship sedan volumes have tumbled since the start of the millennium. 

Arrgh? Really Sauve? The loss that SMK is asking Ford to take, based off of his own criteria about it being nicer than a $90K Escalade, is beyond unreasonable because basically he thinks Ford/Lincoln should build this $80-90K Lincoln and sell it for $46K (sorry but his $10K loss claim would not meet the luxury criteria he made for this mystical Lincoln so). Sorry, but NO company has done that and a profit driven company like Ford sure as hell won't do that. The big fix for them is just making Lincoln more unique and given them something that Ford itself doesn't have. Again, the sell at a loss argument just won't fly with Ford, nor anyone else for that matter.

 

Let me make it clear Suave, that I am not ragging on you here. Lincoln has issues beyond belief, despite what their fans may say but selling at a price loss is not the short term solution to a long term problem.

Edited November 26, 2015 by surreal1272

[Suaviloquent]

 

Arrgh. Surreal, I hate to say this, but Lincoln needs volume for its sedans. Its crossovers sell decently enough. 

 

Selling as a price or loss leader for sedans, it's just an option that has to be on the table. 

 

Swallowing your pride is sometimes the only way to move forward. Cadillac did so. Why can't Lincoln? 

 

But everything we've been hearing from Ford recently is that they simply do not give a damn about unit volumes, they care about margins. But it's not going to propel their half-baked product into greatness. That's okay when you're serving a cash cow segment that you already lead. But it won't get product out the door, especially when it's considered inferior by everyone. Everyone. The odd Chinese buyer will get the keys to a Lincoln due to the same sentimental values its brings to them that historic American brands enjoy in China. Anyone else in America, they're again, it's sentimental at this point.

 

That's why an MKX with all the bells and whistles grazes $70,000. Let that sink in for a moment. There's a Volvo XC90 that does more with an even more "EcoBoost" in mentality engine and a finer interior and with a larger vehicle to boot. And it's priced less than $70,000 fully tilt. 

 

I will repeat how I was an unabashed Lincoln hopeful when the 2013 MKZ came out. I thought they would build on it. Instead we got 3 years of two stagnant product launches. No better or worse in terms of total vehicle concept and execution than the MKZ even though they were later model years.

 

If they had done a complete showroom overhaul with simultaneous launches of the MKZ,C, and X in 2013 as the vehicles are now, I'd be less harsh than I am now.

 

The Continental must either be a crazy hell of a vehicle and exclusive OR a concept at a production car price or a absolute price leader, and loss leader for the brand. 

 

It doesn't hurt to have it sell decently, because flagship sedan volumes have tumbled since the start of the millennium. 

Arrgh? Really Sauve? The loss that SMK is asking Ford to take, based off of his own criteria about it being nicer than a $90K Escalade, is beyond unreasonable because basically he thinks Ford/Lincoln should build this $80-90K Lincoln and sell it for $46K (sorry but his $10K loss claim would not meet the luxury criteria he made for this mystical Lincoln so). Sorry, but NO company has done that and a profit driven company like Ford sure as hell won't do that. The big fix for them is just making Lincoln more unique and given them something that Ford itself doesn't have. Again, the sell at a loss argument just won't fly with Ford, nor anyone else for that matter.

 

Let me make it clear Suave, that I am not ragging on you here. Lincoln has issues beyond belief, despite what their fans may say but selling at a price loss is not the short term solution to a long term problem.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I meant the expression as the disgust of how I actually think of the Lincoln situation, not as a dismissal of your argument.

[smk4565]

I picked the Escalade and Navigator as examples. But let's say they use the Continental concept interior and 400 HP v6 base, I think $49,995 needs to be the price with destination charge.

Lincoln needs a splash. They are using a front drive platform so already they are behind all the other luxury cars in ride and handling. They need to produce the best American car interior ever with ridiculously aggressive pricing.

[surreal1272]

I picked the Escalade and Navigator as examples. But let's say they use the Continental concept interior and 400 HP v6 base, I think $49,995 needs to be the price with destination charge.

Lincoln needs a splash. They are using a front drive platform so already they are behind all the other luxury cars in ride and handling. They need to produce the best American car interior ever with ridiculously aggressive pricing.

You used them as a luxury example while ignoring their luxury price, which is far north of $49K, which is now $3K more than what you stated earlier as the baseline. 

 

 

Arrgh. Surreal, I hate to say this, but Lincoln needs volume for its sedans. Its crossovers sell decently enough. 

 

Selling as a price or loss leader for sedans, it's just an option that has to be on the table. 

 

Swallowing your pride is sometimes the only way to move forward. Cadillac did so. Why can't Lincoln? 

 

But everything we've been hearing from Ford recently is that they simply do not give a damn about unit volumes, they care about margins. But it's not going to propel their half-baked product into greatness. That's okay when you're serving a cash cow segment that you already lead. But it won't get product out the door, especially when it's considered inferior by everyone. Everyone. The odd Chinese buyer will get the keys to a Lincoln due to the same sentimental values its brings to them that historic American brands enjoy in China. Anyone else in America, they're again, it's sentimental at this point.

 

That's why an MKX with all the bells and whistles grazes $70,000. Let that sink in for a moment. There's a Volvo XC90 that does more with an even more "EcoBoost" in mentality engine and a finer interior and with a larger vehicle to boot. And it's priced less than $70,000 fully tilt. 

 

I will repeat how I was an unabashed Lincoln hopeful when the 2013 MKZ came out. I thought they would build on it. Instead we got 3 years of two stagnant product launches. No better or worse in terms of total vehicle concept and execution than the MKZ even though they were later model years.

 

If they had done a complete showroom overhaul with simultaneous launches of the MKZ,C, and X in 2013 as the vehicles are now, I'd be less harsh than I am now.

 

The Continental must either be a crazy hell of a vehicle and exclusive OR a concept at a production car price or a absolute price leader, and loss leader for the brand. 

 

It doesn't hurt to have it sell decently, because flagship sedan volumes have tumbled since the start of the millennium. 

Arrgh? Really Sauve? The loss that SMK is asking Ford to take, based off of his own criteria about it being nicer than a $90K Escalade, is beyond unreasonable because basically he thinks Ford/Lincoln should build this $80-90K Lincoln and sell it for $46K (sorry but his $10K loss claim would not meet the luxury criteria he made for this mystical Lincoln so). Sorry, but NO company has done that and a profit driven company like Ford sure as hell won't do that. The big fix for them is just making Lincoln more unique and given them something that Ford itself doesn't have. Again, the sell at a loss argument just won't fly with Ford, nor anyone else for that matter.

 

Let me make it clear Suave, that I am not ragging on you here. Lincoln has issues beyond belief, despite what their fans may say but selling at a price loss is not the short term solution to a long term problem.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I meant the expression as the disgust of how I actually think of the Lincoln situation, not as a dismissal of your argument.

 

No worries. I know that I can come off a little too direct. I can certainly understand the disgust.

[smk4565]

I originally thought there should be a 300 HP base engine at $45k and options,but I think everything should be standard for $49,995. Every available option from an MKX or Navigator should be standard on Continental. So the fully loaded price would also be $49,995.

[surreal1272]

I originally thought there should be a 300 HP base engine at $45k and options,but I think everything should be standard for $49,995. Every available option from an MKX or Navigator should be standard on Continental. So the fully loaded price would also be $49,995.

Again, not even close to reality. Every option from the navigator would push it far north of $60k and as it has been said a thousand turns already, Ford will not do the "losing money" on any car, much less a more than $10K loss per car. There are far more effective ways to improve that brand than becoming a price bottom feeder.

[smk4565]

Watch them nickel and dime the Continental to keep the price competitive, then they'll offer $5,000 cash back on it and fleet sale it to blow through inventory and not rebuild the brand and not make money anyway. No one has been successful selling a front wheel sedan over $50k. This is why XTS, Acura RLX and Volvo S80/S90 have been high $40s with awd. I don't think anyone is paying over $50k for a Continental.

[surreal1272]

The Continental will be sold with AWD for the record. Also for the record the Audi A6 comes in front and AWD and sell well north of $50K so don't act like it can't be done while you dog everything that is not German.

[Suaviloquent]

If it's a turd like the MKS then they'll be no need worry, Ford will butcher whoever was the internal sponsor for this vehicle.

 

The 2 vehicles that I think best compete with this are the upcoming S90 sedan and the Cadillac XTS.

 

It needs to be match for the S90 for an XTS price to be relevant.

 

It needs to exceed the S90 for an XTS price to be the vanguard of the resurgence.

 

The above need to happen while this vehicle at every trim just sizably undercuts the CT6. 

[ocnblu]

The CT6, even with its potentially wavy, problematic aluminum construction, is so far above the Continental in true and lasting luxury and prestige it is not even a contest.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I originally thought there should be a 300 HP base engine at $45k and options,but I think everything should be standard for $49,995. Every available option from an MKX or Navigator should be standard on Continental. So the fully loaded price would also be $49,995.

well, there already is a 300hp engine tat comes in around $40K.  Does it matter if it is base or not?

[smk4565]

I mean a 300 hp engine on Continental.  A 300 hp Continental could sell for around $44,000.  A 400 hp twin turbo V6 Black label for $49,995.  That's how I'd price them.   Because it is basically just a fancier Buick LaCrosse.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I mean a 300 hp engine on Continental.  A 300 hp Continental could sell for around $44,000.  A 400 hp twin turbo V6 Black label for $49,995.  That's how I'd price them.   Because it is basically just a fancier Buick LaCrosse.

 

You don't know what you are talkng about.

[cp-the-nerd]

 

I mean a 300 hp engine on Continental.  A 300 hp Continental could sell for around $44,000.  A 400 hp twin turbo V6 Black label for $49,995.  That's how I'd price them.   Because it is basically just a fancier Buick LaCrosse.

 

You don't know what you are talkng about.

 

 

Actually he's presented pretty logical posts all thread. If anyone lacks credibility, it's you. The Continental is a full size FWD/AWD vehicle. At best, it will use the torque vectoring system offered in the Focus RS and MKZ performance pkg. 

 

Funny thing about the Lacrosse: its going to be FWD/AWD and full size, and the AWD system is the same advanced torque vectoring system used in the Focus RS. If GM puts a turbocharged V6 under the hood, the market placement will be nearly identical to the Lincoln flagship. The Lincoln brand's alleged superiority to Buick and Acura in the luxury class is totally fabricated.

Edited November 28, 2015 by cp-the-nerd

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

I mean a 300 hp engine on Continental.  A 300 hp Continental could sell for around $44,000.  A 400 hp twin turbo V6 Black label for $49,995.  That's how I'd price them.   Because it is basically just a fancier Buick LaCrosse.

 

You don't know what you are talkng about.

 

 

Actually he's presented pretty logical posts all thread. If anyone lacks credibility, it's you. The Continental is a full size FWD/AWD vehicle. At best, it will use the torque vectoring system offered in the Focus RS and MKZ performance pkg. 

 

Funny thing about the Lacrosse: its going to be FWD/AWD and full size, and the AWD system is the same advanced torque vectoring system used in the Focus RS. If GM puts a turbocharged V6 under the hood, the market placement will be nearly identical to the Lincoln flagship. The Lincoln brand's alleged superiority to Buick and Acura in the luxury class is totally fabricated.

 

 

Today's Taurus SHO is more luxury perfrmance than any Buick sold today.

Pretty sure a 400hp Conti with advanced AWD and a ton of new tech will be as well.

 

I stand my remarks, that claiming Conti is equal to a Buick suggests people don't know what they are talking about.

 

I will align you with him in the credibility department if you like.

[smk4565]

I don't think there will ever be a turbocharged LaCrosse, nor should there be.  300 hp is plenty for a front drive vehicle, even if you do route it through an AWD system.  And for the demographic of that car, 300 hp is plenty.  People that want a 400 hp performance car will go to CTS or an Import.

 

This is Lincoln's problem though, they don't have the ride/handling of other cars because of the chassis, they can't put huge power in because of the chassis.  So all Lincoln has is interior to sell on.  And I doubt the Continental will be an S-class or A8 level interior.  Probably won't even be Mercedes C-class level.  Which you can get a C450 that does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and has the AMG 33/67 split and system for $50k, and $60k optioned up.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why can't they put huge power in the Continental? (or the Lacrosse for that matter?)  

 

The XTS does it and when you stomp on the gas the power goes to the rear wheels, so there is no issue with torque steer.  The MKZ, LaCrosse, and XT5 AWD system is even more advanced than the XTS.

[ocnblu]

Ohhh... XT5 V-Sport?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I don't think there will ever be a turbocharged LaCrosse, nor should there be.  300 hp is plenty for a front drive vehicle, even if you do route it through an AWD system.  And for the demographic of that car, 300 hp is plenty.  People that want a 400 hp performance car will go to CTS or an Import.

 

This is Lincoln's problem though, they don't have the ride/handling of other cars because of the chassis, they can't put huge power in because of the chassis.  So all Lincoln has is interior to sell on.  And I doubt the Continental will be an S-class or A8 level interior.  Probably won't even be Mercedes C-class level.  Which you can get a C450 that does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and has the AMG 33/67 split and system for $50k, and $60k optioned up.

 

Obviously you are wrong as MKS and XTSVS already put down a lot of torque using AWD.

 

AWD is what you want in a luxury car anyway. It is superior.  

[smk4565]

If the Continental was a real luxury car, they'd have the 5.0 liter V8 or the 5.2 liter flat plane crank V8 in there.

[cp-the-nerd]

If the Continental was a real luxury car, they'd have the 5.0 liter V8 or the 5.2 liter flat plane crank V8 in there.

 

And of course a proper platform that takes longitudinally arranged engines.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

If the Continental was a real luxury car, they'd have the 5.0 liter V8 or the 5.2 liter flat plane crank V8 in there.

 

Good save, deflecting the fact you were wrong with an opinion.

Although a bad one.  A screaming V8 FP engine makes sense to you for quiet luxury?

[ocnblu]

Put a muffler on it.  Problem solved.

[smk4565]

Most luxury cars offer a V8, even at the mid-size range, especially at the full size.  It is Lincoln and Cadillac that for some reason don't want to.  

 

It will be interesting to see the final product and pricing for the Continental.

 

And speaking of core segments, where is the small Lincoln luxury car?  The MKZ is 194 inches long, that is bigger than a 5-series, and a lot of people complain the 5-series is too big and bloated now.

Edited November 29, 2015 by smk4565

[ocnblu]

A small Lincoln luxury car?  Well, to paraphrase the title, "Lincoln's Primary Focusssss....."

[surreal1272]

Most luxury cars offer a V8, even at the mid-size range, especially at the full size.  It is Lincoln and Cadillac that for some reason don't want to.  

 

It will be interesting to see the final product and pricing for the Continental.

 

And speaking of core segments, where is the small Lincoln luxury car?  The MKZ is 194 inches long, that is bigger than a 5-series, and a lot of people complain the 5-series is too big and bloated now.

Cadillac offers a V8 in the mid-size CTS-V for the low 90s. MB only offers a V8 in the mid size E-Class when you fork over $100K for the privilege. Not sure what you are trying to prove here based on that simple fact.

Edited November 29, 2015 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

Most luxury cars offer a V8, even at the mid-size range, especially at the full size.  It is Lincoln and Cadillac that for some reason don't want to.  

 

It will be interesting to see the final product and pricing for the Continental.

 

And speaking of core segments, where is the small Lincoln luxury car?  The MKZ is 194 inches long, that is bigger than a 5-series, and a lot of people complain the 5-series is too big and bloated now.

 

Japanese -

Infiniti Q50 - No V8

Acura RLX - No V8

Lexus GS - No V8

 

Americans - 

Cadillac CTS - No V8, but the top V6 matches the 550i 0-60 of 4.5 seconds

Lincoln MKZ - No V8

Chrysler 300C - V8

Tesla Model S - No V8

 

Europeans - 

BMW 5-Series - V8

Mercedes E-Class - No V8

Audi A6 - No V8

Jaguar XF - No V8

Maserati Ghibli - No V8

 

 

So when you say "most manufacturers in the segment offer a V8" you really mean 2 out of the 12 (or 11 if you don't care to count Tesla) and one of them is a Chrysler..... that's most?  And you work for a bank?  No wonder bank fees are so high!

 

The moment you say "but but... AMG!... Audi S6!", I get to say CTS-V and your entire trolling argument gets trashed...... and if you don't want to count the extreme sport models, then only BMW and Chrysler offer V8s....   Of which the Cadillac Turbo V6 matches (the 550i) or beats (300C Hemi) in acceleration.

 

Cadillac DOES offer a V8 in the segment and the Twin Turbo Cadillac V8 is coming for the segments above the CTS ... stop saying Cadillac doesn't or won't offer V8s when you know that to be false..... last warning about the trolling.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Put a muffler on it.  Problem solved.

 

 

Ok then, what about the peaky power delivery?  Cam it down perhaps?  OK, so you muzzle an engine that needs to breathe and give it asthma with a weak cam, and your peak power is significantly reduced.....like significantly!!  So that 526hp engine is coming in slightly above the 5.0L coyote, which would also need to be muzzled btw.  So where are you at? 430hp or so and less torque than new 3.0L which will come in around 415ftlbs when said and done. And average torque (area under the curve) is far, far less as well.  

 

So what have you gained?  

Not much. Conti has a solid plan for their 'quiet luxury' marketing.  And although I would love to see (and will see in the future) a V8 engine option, I recognize this Conti for what it is....an excellent replacement of the defunct MKS, utilizing existing platforms while all new are simultaneously prepared.  

 

That is a solid plan, and a dam good one considering the resources they are currently saddled with.  So I am an optimist, and would rather look forward, then bitch about the mistakes of the past.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Wings4Life

[smk4565]

 

Most luxury cars offer a V8, even at the mid-size range, especially at the full size.  It is Lincoln and Cadillac that for some reason don't want to.  

 

It will be interesting to see the final product and pricing for the Continental.

 

And speaking of core segments, where is the small Lincoln luxury car?  The MKZ is 194 inches long, that is bigger than a 5-series, and a lot of people complain the 5-series is too big and bloated now.

Cadillac offers a V8 in the mid-size CTS-V for the low 90s. MB only offers a V8 in the mid size E-Class when you fork over $100K for the privilege. Not sure what you are trying to prove here based on that simple fact.

 

Unless you get an E550 coupe or convertible which are $60-65k with a V8.  I am not saying the V8 cars are value, but that other luxury makers offer them.  Luxury brands are supposed to offer the best and supposed to offer excess.  CT6 has no V8 when that the common engine for the large sedan segment.  

 

A turbo V6 is plenty for most, but I still think luxury and sports cars need that aspirational product too.  You don't see a turbo 4 or turbo v6 in a Corvette, even though it would make for adequate performance, because they know buyers want the most power they can get and will pay a premium for it.

 

I mentioned the V8 about the Continental.  The MKZ is bigger than an E-class or 5-series, the same length as an Infiniti Q70. The Continental will be as big as an LS460, K900, Genesis/Equus/G90 and those are V8 cars.

 

Oncblu is 100% right about the primary Focus.  You know it is coming eventually.  A Lincoln Explorer would have higher margins so they'll do that first.

Edited November 29, 2015 by smk4565

[smk4565]

I also originally said most luxury cars "offer" a V8, at the mid-size level.  The mid size Infiniti is Q70, that has a V8, Lexus GS-F, the AMG, M, Audi S models, Jaguar XF-R, Hyundai Genesis, and CTS-V as well.  Acura, Lincoln and Volvo do not, look at their status.

 

And I am all for the turbo V6 argument to replace the V8, or turbo 4 to replace a V6.  But then why is there no turbo V6 in a Silverado or Tahoe, GM still puts V8s in those.

Edited November 29, 2015 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

 

 

Most luxury cars offer a V8, even at the mid-size range, especially at the full size.  It is Lincoln and Cadillac that for some reason don't want to.  

 

It will be interesting to see the final product and pricing for the Continental.

 

And speaking of core segments, where is the small Lincoln luxury car?  The MKZ is 194 inches long, that is bigger than a 5-series, and a lot of people complain the 5-series is too big and bloated now.

Cadillac offers a V8 in the mid-size CTS-V for the low 90s. MB only offers a V8 in the mid size E-Class when you fork over $100K for the privilege. Not sure what you are trying to prove here based on that simple fact.

 

Unless you get an E550 coupe or convertible which are $60-65k with a V8.  I am not saying the V8 cars are value, but that other luxury makers offer them.  Luxury brands are supposed to offer the best and supposed to offer excess.  CT6 has no V8 when that the common engine for the large sedan segment.  

 

A turbo V6 is plenty for most, but I still think luxury and sports cars need that aspirational product too.  You don't see a turbo 4 or turbo v6 in a Corvette, even though it would make for adequate performance, because they know buyers want the most power they can get and will pay a premium for it.

 

I mentioned the V8 about the Continental.  The MKZ is bigger than an E-class or 5-series, the same length as an Infiniti Q70. The Continental will be as big as an LS460, K900, Genesis/Equus/G90 and those are V8 cars.

 

Oncblu is 100% right about the primary Focus.  You know it is coming eventually.  A Lincoln Explorer would have higher margins so they'll do that first.

 

Until this generation, the CTS-V was offered in a coupe as well so you are not making a very good case here. Again, you expose your bias when you expect companies, such as Lincoln and Cadillac, to sell something for dirt cheap (on top of that) that your own favorite brand doesn't even come close to doing.

I also originally said most luxury cars "offer" a V8, at the mid-size level.  The mid size Infiniti is Q70, that has a V8, Lexus GS-F, the AMG, M, Audi S models, Jaguar XF-R, Hyundai Genesis, and CTS-V as well.  Acura, Lincoln and Volvo do not, look at their status.

 

And I am all for the turbo V6 argument to replace the V8, or turbo 4 to replace a V6.  But then why is there no turbo V6 in a Silverado or Tahoe, GM still puts V8s in those.

Stop bringing trucks into this. Good lord, you love beating a dead horse. If you don't understand why their are not turbo V6s in GM's full size trucks (especially when their V8s do it better for less most of the time), then you have not been paying attention at all to the market.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is no more XF-R.... there is an R-Sport, but that's the S/C V6

 

The TurboV6 v. V8 replacement scenario is very segment specific.  Ford has been getting a lot of marketing traction with theirs in the F-150, but having driven a few, I'm not convinced of the advantage over a V8 in that application.   In the lighter mid-size sedan segment, the Turbo-6 makes a lot more sense as there is a lot less mass to be hauling around.   In the F-150, the Turbos spool up a bit more often just to keep the vehicle moving at highway speeds..... in the CTS the turbos are basically at near idle and 2 of the cylinders shut down.   The CTS V-Sport ends up being just as fast as the 550I but more fuel efficient.... a situation that is very likely to be repeated in the larger CT6 3.0TT.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Whoever it was that suggested smk was 'logical' I have disagree with 100%.

I see ZERO logic in his comments regarding the definition of a luxury brand.

[smk4565]

You can't be a luxury brand without rear wheel drive and a V8.  It is that simple.  (Tesla is rear drive and has 500-700 hp, electricity is the exception)

 

I never said Lincoln had to offer a V8 cheap.   Charge $85k for it for a rear drive V8 Lincoln for all I care, at least they would have an interesting product.   I originally said the Continental being a front drive chassis car, even with a turbo v6 and all wheel drive will have to be priced cheap to sell.   You can put as nice an interior as you want in these Lincolns, they still drive like Fords.  Acura is in the same situation, that is why Lincoln and Acura struggle selling sedans over $45k.  RLX and MKS sales are proof of that.   

 

I think this idea of the V8 is so expensive is ridiculous.  Ford and Chevy can put V8s into Camaros and Mustangs for $35,000.  Chrysler/Dodge do it also with their sedans.  So in Cadillac's case, they could put a V8 in more cars, they choose not to.  In Lincoln's case, they don't have the platform for it.

 

Without a real platform Lincoln will never be anything.  Trying to make front drive Lincolns compete with real luxury cars would be like building the Mustang on a Fusion platform, and putting a twin turbo V6 in with torque vectoring awd.  You could still get 400 hp in the car and put it on the ground, but a fwd chassis Mustang is not going to compete with a rear drive Camaro.  Just like these Lincolns won't compete with Cadillac, Lexus, the Germans, Jaguar, etc.

Edited November 29, 2015 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

You can't be a luxury brand without rear wheel drive and a V8.  It is that simple.  (Tesla is rear drive and has 500-700 hp, electricity is the exception)

 

I never said Lincoln had to offer a V8 cheap.   Charge $85k for it for a rear drive V8 Lincoln for all I care, at least they would have an interesting product.   I originally said the Continental being a front drive chassis car, even with a turbo v6 and all wheel drive will have to be priced cheap to sell.   You can put as nice an interior as you want in these Lincolns, they still drive like Fords.  Acura is in the same situation, that is why Lincoln and Acura struggle selling sedans over $45k.  RLX and MKS sales are proof of that.   

 

I think this idea of the V8 is so expensive is ridiculous.  Ford and Chevy can put V8s into Camaros and Mustangs for $35,000.  Chrysler/Dodge do it also with their sedans.  So in Cadillac's case, they could put a V8 in more cars, they choose not to.  In Lincoln's case, they don't have the platform for it.

 

Without a real platform Lincoln will never be anything.  Trying to make front drive Lincolns compete with real luxury cars would be like building the Mustang on a Fusion platform, and putting a twin turbo V6 in with torque vectoring awd.  You could still get 400 hp in the car and put it on the ground, but a fwd chassis Mustang is not going to compete with a rear drive Camaro.  Just like these Lincolns won't compete with Cadillac, Lexus, the Germans, Jaguar, etc.

Again, as Drew has told you at least hundred times now, Cadillac has a V8 option and a twin turbo V8 on the way. Just drop the misinformation you keep slinging.

[ocnblu]

I don't often agree with him when he talks smAk, but here, if I may translate, I believe he is advocating V8 engines in the less-than top-line trims.  A silent 400 hp V8 engine, with its attendant torque and lower revving qualities, would be a most welcome addition in a car like the CTS and CT6... they kept the V8 engine when they downsized in the 80's and went FWD, it was important to do so... Lincoln even stuffed a V8 in their FWD Continental for a few years, let alone the big daddy Town Car, and that car enjoyed a fervent following with 210 hp in a 4.6L straight out of a police car/taxicab.  There is nothing like the quiet authority of a V8 in a luxury car.  There is so much to admire in Ford's plan to bring back the storied Continental nameplate.  To hobble it with a FWD/AWD chassis and six cylinder engines is ensuring it will remain out of the top tier.

Edited November 29, 2015 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Let me ax you all a question:  what is that old saying about being doomed to repeat history?  Ford Motor Company is about to do just that.  Have they no memory?

 

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I don't often agree with him when he talks smAk, but here, if I may translate, I believe he is advocating V8 engines in the less-than top-line trims.  A silent 400 hp V8 engine, with its attendant torque and lower revving qualities, would be a most welcome addition in a car like the CTS and CT6... they kept the V8 engine when they downsized in the 80's and went FWD, it was important to do so... Lincoln even stuffed a V8 in their FWD Continental for a few years, let alone the big daddy Town Car, and that car enjoyed a fervent following with 210 hp in a 4.6L straight out of a police car/taxicab.  There is nothing like the quiet authority of a V8 in a luxury car.  There is so much to admire in Ford's plan to bring back the storied Continental nameplate.  To hobble it with a FWD/AWD chassis and six cylinder engines is ensuring it will remain out of the top tier.

 

Actually, the low rpm torque delivery of a small lightweight turbo V6 happens sooner than a V8 NA engine.  Lower rpm's means lower noise levels too.  

 

And a modern Conti with all the latest technology is hardly any hobbling go on, relative to the underpowered boats of yore, that handled like a UPS truck.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Wings4Life