Go. All. The. Way: '16 Camaro Motortrend Car of the Year

[El Kabong]

I'm not sure how Motor Trend releases COTY winners online anymore. But if their link is anything to go by, only a split decision on the styling keeps it from being the perfect ponycar:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-camaro-2016-motor-trend-car-of-the-year-finalist/

[cp-the-nerd]

I think the new Civic could slip in and steal it. It's a clean sheet new gen like we haven't seen since the 2005 Civic (also a COTY winner) with a really strong design and great new engines. I want the Camaro to win, don't get me wrong, I'm just being objective. The new Civic is an excellent compact.

[El Kabong]

No worries man. Contrary to the image certain folks have been trying to pin on me I'm as rational as the next guy. Possibly moreso

If the styling turns out to be the dealbreaker for this car then it is what it is. The complaint from MT seems to be that it isn't evolutionary enough. Now, I get that that's one of the main criteria for COTY. But I'm also unclear on how they could evolve it further. What, use a periscope to drive the thing?

[Suaviloquent]

That's really not fair on the Camaro. Case-in-point: The new Golf isn't a shocker in exterior styling either. And the CR-V last year. 

 

Not much advancement in design either. And there's others that have also won with less: the 2012 Fusion, which I think is one of the few examples of a minor refresh that totally changed the whole car.

 

If the Civic wins, then I think I'm going to be disappointed with MT. We've had four straight sedans as winners. It's time a performance car that changes the whole breed win.

[Drew Dowdell]

I could see the Miata getting it, though it should be dinged for the same styling reason the Camaro did.

 

No to the TT - Audi is in timeout with VW at the moment.

No to the MB GTS - way too far out of the mainstream

Civic possibly, it probably will be the new best in class, but it doesn't blow me away.

No to the Mirai - it doesn't get sold anywhere

7-series - I guess it is possible, but again it doesn't change the equation from the last 3 decades of 7-series in styling.

 

So I think in reality it is down to Camaro, Miata, and Civic.... with the 7-series being a distant 4th. 

[El Kabong]

If it comes down to the Civic, Miata, and Camaro I think there's a real chance the Camaro's performance leap gives it the trophy. But we shall see.

[FordCosworth]

There's a fellow on another site saying " Camaro didn't win, Ed Loh said on Persiscope. "

[El Kabong]

Ah well.

If that's true, I guess we'll just have to settle for it beating Mustangs. After all, if you read the article I cited that's how MT describes it :D

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

...I mean, they just pulled no punches about it either: "we liked the Mustang-beating Camaro SS, too. 'World-class sports car performance and dynamics,' Angus MacKenzie said of the Camaro SS. Jason Cammisa agreed. 'I am absolutely in love with this car’s limit handling!'"

Sad sad sad for Mustang fans I reckon

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

There's a fellow on another site saying " Camaro didn't win, Ed Loh said on Persiscope. "

 

 

Say. It. Ain't. So.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

...I mean, they just pulled no punches about it either: "we liked the Mustang-beating Camaro SS, too. 'World-class sports car performance and dynamics,' Angus MacKenzie said of the Camaro SS. Jason Cammisa agreed. 'I am absolutely in love with this car’s limit handling!'"

Sad sad sad for Mustang fans I reckon

 

 Brings up Mustang in Camaro finalist award when it appears camaro did not win.

 

Noted.

[El Kabong]

Yes.

It's called "citing my own article."

So sensitive

[El Kabong]

Those numbers tho:

CURB WEIGHT (F/R DIST): 3,672 lb (54/46%)

ACCELERATION, 0-60 MPH: 4.0 sec

QUARTER MILE: 12.4 [email protected] mph

BRAKING, 60-0 MPH: 104 ft

LATERAL ACCELERATION: 1.00 g (avg)

MT FIGURE EIGHT: [email protected] (avg)

I mean, stats like those from a regular-production Camaro... and at a price well under forty grand. That's a tough combo to top, fer sure.

[El Kabong]

See? If you can cough up compelling numbers, the weaker arguments instantly go away.

And after looking at last year's winner the lack of styling innovation may not be an insurmountable thing. After all, secondhand reports on social media aren't always good sources to go on.

One way or another, it'll be an interesting reveal on Monday. And one way or another, they gushed over this car

[surreal1272]

 

...I mean, they just pulled no punches about it either: "we liked the Mustang-beating Camaro SS, too. 'World-class sports car performance and dynamics,' Angus MacKenzie said of the Camaro SS. Jason Cammisa agreed. 'I am absolutely in love with this car’s limit handling!'"

Sad sad sad for Mustang fans I reckon

 

 Brings up Mustang in Camaro finalist award when it appears camaro did not win.

 

Noted.

 

It is pulled directly from the article in question Jimmy Hoffa, so take it up with them if you have a issue.

It will most likely go to the Civic IMO, even though I am not impressed with it in the least (design wise anyway).

Edited November 14, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

They turbocharged it. For Honda, that's a radical step.

"Torque kicked in yo."

[ccap41]

...I mean, they just pulled no punches about it either: "we liked the Mustang-beating Camaro SS, too. 'World-class sports car performance and dynamics,' Angus MacKenzie said of the Camaro SS. Jason Cammisa agreed. 'I am absolutely in love with this car’s limit handling!'"

Sad sad sad for Mustang fans I reckon

Only sad to those who care more about numbers than the cars themselves. You can't lose buying either. Both leaps and bounds greater than cars 10-15 years ago. It's great we're in a time when these two are battling again. THAT brings the best out of both of them. Edited November 14, 2015 by ccap41

[El Kabong]

Uh... nope. The current Mustang GT PP, as has been pointed out by MT previously, is roughly the match for a previous-gen 1LE Camaro. So in reality, only one of these cars is leaps and bounds ahead.

The GT350R perfectly encapsulates Ford's dilemma in this segment right now: in order to be a noteworthy performer they have to do some pretty aggressive upgrades, which means they have to price it higher. Let's not forget that the car's R&T win is the S550's first comparo win against contemporary equipment, as opposed to a lame-duck model. And it took the 70-grand version to pull it off. The cooking models are quickly getting the cold shoulder from the mags as they begin to drive the Alpha Camaro and discover what a special car it is, even in ordinary form.

It's a nice win. But it's also a solitary one.

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

Can we keep that bickering to a single thread please?

[El Kabong]

I don't mind. Really, I don't. As long as the personal attacks are dealt with I can deal with dishing out numbers and the odd weirdo PMing me.

[ccap41]

Uh... nope. The current Mustang GT PP, as has been pointed out by MT previously, is roughly the match for a previous-gen 1LE Camaro. So in reality, only one of these cars is leaps and bounds ahead.

The GT350R perfectly encapsulates Ford's dilemma in this segment right now: in order to be a noteworthy performer they have to do some pretty aggressive upgrades, which means they have to price it higher. Let's not forget that the car's R&T win is the S550's first comparo win against contemporary equipment, as opposed to a lame-duck model. And it took the 70-grand version to pull it off. The cooking models are quickly getting the cold shoulder from the mags as they begin to drive the Alpha Camaro and discover what a special car it is, even in ordinary form.

It's a nice win. But it's also a solitary one.

C'mon, man. You've got to be kidding, right?

10-15 years ago there wasn't a Camaro and a Mustang GT had 260hp/290tq and a solid rear axle.

I don't know how one can honestly say either of these you're speaking of are bad cars and deserve talking down to. Interiors have improved ten fold, everyday drivability head and shoulders above the 10-15 year old cars, then the engines and transmissions are superior to even some super cars back then. 435-455hp is nuts for any car that is considered affordable to the masses.

[El Kabong]

What I am saying is that when the field consisted of one car, it was stagnant.

Now that the field consists of two (or three, depending on how you define it) cars, the same car that was stagnant when it was alone is lagging now.

That is what I am saying. You can say that it is better than it was a decade ago but who cares if there is precious little to prove it is better than it's current conpetition was five years ago?

The reality is that product-wise, the S550 Mustang is a full generation behind its major competitor. No amount of spin or PR or trolling or bitching can change that reality one iota. It simply is what it is.

If you want to play the sales/profit card, go for it. I have no issues with you or anyone else doing so. I get that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm sure that Ford's marketing and trim level strategy is going to make them money.

But let's not kid ourselves about what the better car is. And let's not kid ourselves about GM not having a plan to ensure that better car makes money on the terms they have set out. As I have noted already, it surely matters less to GM than Ford about fleet sales when GM knows it sells a variant of the Camaro's bones for nearly 100 grand.

Hey, if you don't mind having a car that has a bit more room, a bit less exhaust note, and a fair bit less go, that's perfectly fine. It takes all kinds to make a world. But don't try and use that preference to explain away why the performance discrepancy exists. It exists because GM is just that good, just that determined, and just that well-equipped.

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

So, once again, it seems an appropriate time to reiterate that no amount of distraction, PR, or other shenanigans will change the numbers.

And the numbers all break the Camaro's way.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

 

Cough....sales numbers.....cough    

[El Kabong]

^

 

Cough....sales numbers.....cough    

And as I said: if you consider winning the loyalty of Hertz to be a major priority, then that's ok. No doubt they will go with the fleet of the cheapest old buckets a minimum of dollars can buy.

However, for the purposes of his thread the only relevant numbers are the performance ones. And by that measure, Ford is getting checkmated pretty badly right now.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

^

 

Cough....sales numbers.....cough    

And as I said: if you consider winning the loyalty of Hertz to be a major priority, then that's ok. No doubt they will go with the fleet of the cheapest old buckets a minimum of dollars can buy.

However, for the purposes of his thread the only relevant numbers are the performance ones. And by that measure, Ford is getting checkmated pretty badly right now.

 

 

 

I believe the purpose of this thread, was to discuss possible candidates for COTY finalists.

You are the one who steered it in another direction, as you always do.

[El Kabong]

Nonsense.

But it has been amusing seeing you bring up sales numbers when I already pointed out that they mean bupkis to this thread.

Or perhaps COTY uses sales numbers as an awards criteria now.

*searches criteria*

...oops, 'fraid not.

wings wings wings... on topic, please? Yeesh

:D

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

What's even better is that the judges are already speculating about the possibilities this chassis opens up for Chevy:

"The Camaro SS handles better and is quicker than luxury competitors costing tens of thousands more—the very fact that it nearly ties the old Z/28 in every performance category and does it without the optional magnetic ride suspension makes us anxiously await the higher-performance models that are yet to come."

...wow. Sounds to me like if they offered carbon ceramics, Pilot Sport Cup 2s, and a 3.91 rear end as dealer-installed options they'd have a GT350R killer for about the same as a regular Shelby.

Wowzers

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-car-year-notes-two-legendary-car-guys/

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Nonsense.

But it has been amusing seeing you bring up sales numbers when I already pointed out that they mean bupkis to this thread.

Or perhaps COTY uses sales numbers as an awards criteria now.

*searches criteria*

...oops, 'fraid not.

wings wings wings... on topic, please? Yeesh

:D

 

 

"And the numbers all break the Camaro's way."

 

As I said, not all numbers.

Not by a Mustang Mile.

 

 

And it just occurred to me, you soooo jelly about Shelby win......that's what this is all about.

 

So obvious.

okeedokeee, stepping out for the evening.  tootles

Edited November 14, 2015 by Wings4Life

[El Kabong]

It's always a shame to see the last argument mustered being deliberately off-topic.

But numbers have a way of weeding out the weak arguments pretty quick. They certainly did this time.

Bonus points for "Mustang mile" though. That's just so... so

Edited November 14, 2015 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

*random thought(in wrong thread, knowingly*

I think it's funny that somebody else and myself can talk about Parks and Recs in a car thread and nobody bats an eye. Somebody mentions something that at least has to do with cars and gets told to get back on topic..lol at everybody.

Just curious, what's a "Mustang Mile"?

Edited November 15, 2015 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

...I mean, they just pulled no punches about it either: "we liked the Mustang-beating Camaro SS, too. 'World-class sports car performance and dynamics,' Angus MacKenzie said of the Camaro SS. Jason Cammisa agreed. 'I am absolutely in love with this car’s limit handling!'"

Sad sad sad for Mustang fans I reckon

 

 Brings up Mustang in Camaro finalist award when it appears camaro did not win.

 

Noted.

 

It is pulled directly from the article in question Jimmy Hoffa, so take it up with them if you have a issue.

It will most likely go to the Civic IMO, even though I am not impressed with it in the least (design wise anyway).

 

 

 

I believe the point was that he picked the article for a reason.

Duh!!!

 

And get your own joke material please, and stop stealing mine

Can we keep that bickering to a single thread please?

 

Soooo, you want the low rent trash talk over in the Mustang thread, as opposed to this one?

 

Whatever you have to tell yourself. I can steal whatever "jokes" I want especially since my joke was obviously tongue in cheek in reference. Trust me. You're not funny, not one bit so don't flatter yourself there. Fact is that you got pissy with Bong over something that was said by someone else and that is all there is to it. It has not jack to with what article he decided to go with. The Camaro is in consideration for COTY and him quoting directly from that very article is 100% spot on and relevant. Don't like it? Well, no one forced you to come to this thread and troll on about it.

[surreal1272]

 

Nonsense.

But it has been amusing seeing you bring up sales numbers when I already pointed out that they mean bupkis to this thread.

Or perhaps COTY uses sales numbers as an awards criteria now.

*searches criteria*

...oops, 'fraid not.

wings wings wings... on topic, please? Yeesh

:D

 

 

"And the numbers all break the Camaro's way."

 

As I said, not all numbers.

Not by a Mustang Mile.

 

 

And it just occurred to me, you soooo jelly about Shelby win......that's what this is all about.

 

So obvious.

okeedokeee, stepping out for the evening.  tootles

 

Says the person who was so jealous over the SS win against the GT the other week, that he had to start his own "Shelby coming in 2017" thread. Oh the irony of some of the stuff you say.

It's always a shame to see the last argument mustered being deliberately off-topic.

But numbers have a way of weeding out the weak arguments pretty quick. They certainly did this time.

Bonus points for "Mustang mile" though. That's just so... so

But those sales Bong, those wonderful wonderful sales! It just makes you want to sing to the heavens!

Edited November 15, 2015 by surreal1272

[El Kabong]

*random thought(in wrong thread, knowingly*

I think it's funny that somebody else and myself can talk about Parks and Recs in a car thread and nobody bats an eye. Somebody mentions something that at least has to do with cars and gets told to get back on topic..lol at everybody.

Just curious, what's a "Mustang Mile"?

I have a great punchline for the Mustang Mile thing, but I'll just sit on it for the sake of decorum.

My take on the off-topic stuff is pretty simple: if I think someone's trying to just stir the pot I'll use that to my advantage by digging at the weakness of the argument that usually underlies that type of thing. Since the intent is emotional, not rational, the pot-stirrer is usually too flustered to contribute anything useful anyhow. As was the case here.

But if you DID want to split hairs, the only sales info relevant to COTY is the on-sale date, which is Jan. 1 of the calendar year in question.

Edited November 15, 2015 by El Kabong

[FordCosworth]

*random thought(in wrong thread, knowingly*

I think it's funny that somebody else and myself can talk about Parks and Recs in a car thread and nobody bats an eye. Somebody mentions something that at least has to do with cars and gets told to get back on topic..lol at everybody.

Just curious, what's a "Mustang Mile"?

[surreal1272]

A "Mustang Mile" is the mile it still has to go after getting walked on by the Camaro at the track (I kid but hey, people were asking).

[regfootball]

I could see the Miata getting it, though it should be dinged for the same styling reason the Camaro did.

 

No to the TT - Audi is in timeout with VW at the moment.

No to the MB GTS - way too far out of the mainstream

Civic possibly, it probably will be the new best in class, but it doesn't blow me away.

No to the Mirai - it doesn't get sold anywhere

7-series - I guess it is possible, but again it doesn't change the equation from the last 3 decades of 7-series in styling.

 

So I think in reality it is down to Camaro, Miata, and Civic.... with the 7-series being a distant 4th. 

 

Having just driven the Civic, and reading that it is not being given to the Camaro, ...Civic is pretty good, not a revelation, but i just think the chances of them giving it to a sedan, and not to a 2 seater is what may give it to Civic.

 

If its C/D then i can see them giving it to a Camaro or Miata.

[ccap41]

A "Mustang Mile" is the mile it still has to go after getting walked on by the Camaro at the track (I kid but hey, people were asking).

Is that like the cool down mile it takes to get their excuses in their head so when they stop next to the 'Maro they have all sorts of excuses on deck?? Lol

Like..like..like.. The Camaro had an extra year of innovation!

The Camaro has more gear ratios!

The Camaro has less weight!

Hahaha

[ocnblu]

Colorado Duramax, 2016 Motor Trend Truck Of The Year!

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

Nonsense.

But it has been amusing seeing you bring up sales numbers when I already pointed out that they mean bupkis to this thread.

Or perhaps COTY uses sales numbers as an awards criteria now.

*searches criteria*

...oops, 'fraid not.

wings wings wings... on topic, please? Yeesh

:D

 

 

"And the numbers all break the Camaro's way."

 

As I said, not all numbers.

Not by a Mustang Mile.

 

 

And it just occurred to me, you soooo jelly about Shelby win......that's what this is all about.

 

So obvious.

okeedokeee, stepping out for the evening.  tootles

 

Says the person who was so jealous over the SS win against the GT the other week, that he had to start his own "Shelby coming in 2017" thread. Oh the irony of some of the stuff you say.

It's always a shame to see the last argument mustered being deliberately off-topic.

But numbers have a way of weeding out the weak arguments pretty quick. They certainly did this time.

Bonus points for "Mustang mile" though. That's just so... so

But those sales Bong, those wonderful wonderful sales! It just makes you want to sing to the heavens!

 

 

Business as usual with you, poorly policing my every remark.

 

Any thoughts at all on the subject matter?

Any at all?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

From the link:

 

We Don’t Like: Missed opportunity to further evolve the Camaro’s design

 

I think that really hurts the camaro's chances, both winning the award and beating Mustang where it clearly counts most, sales.

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

Nonsense.

But it has been amusing seeing you bring up sales numbers when I already pointed out that they mean bupkis to this thread.

Or perhaps COTY uses sales numbers as an awards criteria now.

*searches criteria*

...oops, 'fraid not.

wings wings wings... on topic, please? Yeesh

:D

 

 

"And the numbers all break the Camaro's way."

 

As I said, not all numbers.

Not by a Mustang Mile.

 

 

And it just occurred to me, you soooo jelly about Shelby win......that's what this is all about.

 

So obvious.

okeedokeee, stepping out for the evening.  tootles

 

Says the person who was so jealous over the SS win against the GT the other week, that he had to start his own "Shelby coming in 2017" thread. Oh the irony of some of the stuff you say.

It's always a shame to see the last argument mustered being deliberately off-topic.

But numbers have a way of weeding out the weak arguments pretty quick. They certainly did this time.

Bonus points for "Mustang mile" though. That's just so... so

But those sales Bong, those wonderful wonderful sales! It just makes you want to sing to the heavens!

 

 

Business as usual with you, poorly policing my every remark.

 

Any thoughts at all on the subject matter?

Any at all?

 

Nothing was poorly policed except in that biased mind of yours. 

 

DO you actually have any thoughts on the matter? All I have seen is pure trolling here on your part while you complain about that very thing on your GT350R thread. 

 

BTW, I already stated that the Civic will probably win. Guess you missed that part, which is not surprising since all you do is focus on the negative.

[surreal1272]

From the link:

 

We Don’t Like: Missed opportunity to further evolve the Camaro’s design

 

I think that really hurts the camaro's chances, both winning the award and beating Mustang where it clearly counts most, sales.

Now does this rule apply to all cars? The reason why I ask is that you were singing a completely different tune a few months ago in regards to the Expedition vs. Tahoe. Why do sales only matter when Ford is winning but they don't matter when they losing badly? It's a simple question.

 

And again with you focusing only on the negative when it suits you. Per the same article:

"We Like: Lightweight new platform, screaming engines."

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

From the link:

 

We Don’t Like: Missed opportunity to further evolve the Camaro’s design

 

I think that really hurts the camaro's chances, both winning the award and beating Mustang where it clearly counts most, sales.

Now does this rule apply to all cars? The reason why I ask is that you were singing a completely different tune a few months ago in regards to the Expedition vs. Tahoe. Why do sales only matter when Ford is winning but they don't matter when they losing badly? It's a simple question.

 

And again with you focusing only on the negative when it suits you. Per the same article:

"We Like: Lightweight new platform, screaming engines."

 

 

sales always matter. how do you not know this?  especially in a segment that lives or dies by those sales.

I am concerned that poor sales could take away what is Mustangs only real competition.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

Says the person who was so jealous over the SS win against the GT the other week, that he had to start his own "Shelby coming in 2017" thread. Oh the irony of some of the stuff you say.

 

 

 

"And the numbers all break the Camaro's way."

 

As I said, not all numbers.

Not by a Mustang Mile.

 

 

And it just occurred to me, you soooo jelly about Shelby win......that's what this is all about.

 

So obvious.

okeedokeee, stepping out for the evening.  tootles

 

But those sales Bong, those wonderful wonderful sales! It just makes you want to sing to the heavens!

 

 

Business as usual with you, poorly policing my every remark.

 

Any thoughts at all on the subject matter?

Any at all?

 

Nothing was poorly policed except in that biased mind of yours. 

 

DO you actually have any thoughts on the matter? All I have seen is pure trolling here on your part while you complain about that very thing on your GT350R thread. 

 

BTW, I already stated that the Civic will probably win. Guess you missed that part, which is not surprising since all you do is focus on the negative.

 

 

 

Yeah, and I also made many comments on the subject matter, of which you totally ignored too.

[El Kabong]

If sales always mattered then how come the F-150 didn't win TOTY the last time it was eligible?

Yeesh

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I don't know what GM's obligations are to it's shareholders, but Ford puts profits 

 

If sales always mattered then how come the F-150 didn't win TOTY the last time it was eligible?

Yeesh

topic please, which is camaro not quite winning an award....not F-150 winning pretty much everything.

[El Kabong]

[self-edit]

Edited November 15, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Uh huh, anyway.....I have now seen the Civic. Not bad.  I have cast a silent vote.

[surreal1272]

I don't know what GM's obligations are to it's shareholders, but Ford puts profits 

 

If sales always mattered then how come the F-150 didn't win TOTY the last time it was eligible?

Yeesh

topic please, which is camaro not quite winning an award....not F-150 winning pretty much everything.

Except MT truck of the year, but hey, who's counting (other than you).