Tesla CEO Defends Model S After Consumer Reports Downgrade

[William Maley]

One thing you cannot call Elon Musk is a shrinking violet. The CEO of Tesla has taken to Twitter once again to defend the company. This time it deals with the results of Consumer Reports' annual reliability survey where the Model S, a vehicle which had earned the coveted Recommended rating, lost it this year due to a number of problems reported by owners. CR says the Model S likely to face a "worse-than-average" overall problem rate.

 

Musk said in his tweets that problems outlined in CR's survey were because of early production models and that new models have these issues ironed out. Musk goes on to say "Most important, CR says 97% of owners expect their next car to be a Tesla (the acid test)."

 

Source: Elon Musk Twitter, (2)

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[G. David Felt]

Good for him to defend his product. Wish others would take CR to task for a heavy hand on their review of american products.

[Guest Howie]

Good for him to defend his product. Wish others would take CR to task for a heavy hand on their review of american products.

Consumer Reports reliability survey is just that : reporting problems from a survey. Why blame the messenger ?

Musk defends his product but he doesn't deny the problems reported. He even acknowledge them but say they have been corrected.

I'm actually glad consumers have tool to take manufacturers to task instead of the other way around.

[Drew Dowdell]

CRs self reporting model has known issues and has for years.

[smk4565]

Didn't Consumer Reports say the Model S scored 103 points on a 100 point scale, and thus was a beyond perfect car?  Now they don't like it?  CR is full of crap and knows nothing about cars.  If you choose a car based on reliability ratings from a scale designed to judge washing machines then you might as well admit you have no goals or ambition in life and just pack it up and die.

[Drew Dowdell]

Didn't Consumer Reports say the Model S scored 103 points on a 100 point scale, and thus was a beyond perfect car?  Now they don't like it?  CR is full of crap and knows nothing about cars.  If you choose a car based on reliability ratings from a scale designed to judge washing machines then you might as well admit you have no goals or ambition in life and just pack it up and die.

 

You're talking about a vehicle review like we might do here that "broke" their scale.  The car reliability survey is different and is why they are rescinding their recommendation. 

[ocnblu]

Hopefully the geek squad over at CR has learned a lesson from this major miscalculation.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hopefully the geek squad over at CR has learned a lesson from this major miscalculation.

They didn't when the same thing happened with Toyota, I doubt they will now.

[Guest Howie]

 

Hopefully the geek squad over at CR has learned a lesson from this major miscalculation.

They didn't when the same thing happened with Toyota, I doubt they will now.

 

 

CR testing/ratings and the reliability survey are two very different things.

 

CR testing/ratings have Tesla S, Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Sonic, Lincoln MKZ, Buick Regal, Dodge Durango and Buick Enclave on top of their categories while CTS, Verano, LaCrosse are rated among the best. What's so geek about that ? Like for any testing, one has to give or take according to his own priorities.

 

The reliability survey is flawed like any survey (only from people willing to answer, thus probably more with things to report than not, no cue about condition of ownership - hence Buick appearing more reliable than Chevrolet counterparts - and tolerance to "glitches" like with infotainment systems). But some valuable indications. Toyota never dropped that much in those or any survey since, as for the GM ignition switch drama, a recall is still just one trip to the mechanic for the owner.

[Drew Dowdell]

CR's survey is unreliable because it counts on the customer making a judgement as to the severity of a defect. Customers are, in general, really really dumb.

Then there is the issue of CR giving two different ratings to two mechanically identical vehicles with different badges. It is virtually impossible for there to be a statistically significant difference between a Toyota Corolla and Chevy Prism. They were built on the same lines, with the same parts, by the same workers. Yet CR rated them differently.

There are other issues as well....

CR has a long history of being unreliable on car ratings. This is not a defense of Tesla but an indictment of CR.

[Suaviloquent]

Tesla probably has a very high (possibly approaching 100%) [recall?TSB?update?] service completion rate, as the company does over the air updates.

 

So you end up getting real mechanical failures that stand out...

 

For the price they charge for the vehicles, doing things such as replacing entire motors and going the extra mile is something that should be expected. 

 

But them doing this kind of extensive under warranty repair service for customers without a traditional dealer network is quite frankly, impressive. They have vehicles everywhere, now. I see so many of them here in Toronto. And a lot of the ones I spot are Dual Motor.

[Drew Dowdell]

A number of the early motor replacements likely weren't even needed, Tesla just wanted the parts back to study potential failures to avoid them in future. An engine replacement in a petrol car is a big deal. Swapping the motor out of a Tesla is simple, relative to a petrol car.

However, on a CR survey, it sounds pretty bad.

[ocnblu]

Excuse me?  The basic motive force of a $100k vehicle fails and it is not a big deal? 

[Drew Dowdell]

Excuse me?  The basic motive force of a $100k vehicle fails and it is not a big deal? 

Read it again.

[ocnblu]

If I am the owner of a vehicle and the basic motive force of that vehicle fails, whether it be an electric motor or a gasoline engine, it is a big deal to me, the person who bought said vehicle.  I don't care if it takes 10 minutes or a day to swap out the heart of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

If I am the owner of a vehicle and the basic motive force of that vehicle fails, whether it be an electric motor or a gasoline engine, it is a big deal to me, the person who bought said vehicle.  I don't care if it takes 10 minutes or a day to swap out the heart of it.

And still read it again. Tesla took some of those motors to study them. Not because they needed full motor swaps. It skews the results of the CR survey, but the owner got a new drive unit that they might not have actually needed so Tesla can make further adjustments to their design.

Tesla does rolling upgrades to their cars without waiting till the next model year, so as they find fixes to make, they go into production quickly.

It's a different and more nimble business model than the traditional car companies.

[ocnblu]

All customers are not equal though in a Tesla lover's world.  Tesla owners are tech savvy.  They are very smrt individuals who are on the cutting edge of consciousness.  Why would they report something that was irrelevant to them?  That was not fully explained to them by their God, Elon Musk?  These failures were noted, and not just by CR's skewed method.  They are facts.

[Drew Dowdell]

Because a lot of times, it is just the service advisor saying "We're just going to swap out the drive unit, it will be back to you on Thursday."

Simple, friendly, direct, exceptional customer service.

And while you might find it a big deal, I don't find swapping out a drive unit in a Tesla under warranty to be a big deal. It's a few wire harness clips and a dozen or so bolts.

But I work in technology... I understand that electronics are designed to be easily swappable. As long as the parts are replaced with equal or greater performance, it is no different than swapping out a dead hard drive on a $2,000 laptop.

[ocnblu]

OK yeah, call me old skool, but if Tesla cannot get the main drive motor right, what else will go wrong?  This is not a minor detail, Good Lord, it is everything.

[Drew Dowdell]

OK yeah, call me old skool, but if Tesla cannot get the main drive motor right, what else will go wrong?  This is not a minor detail, Good Lord, it is everything.

 

You're old skool.  You're thinking in terms of catastrophic engine failure, generally one of the only reasons a big legacy manufacturer would replace an engine under warranty.  They'll only do engine swap outs if the entire engine is toast.

 

That's not what is happening with these Teslas. Some of them just have the petrol equivalent of a check engine light on, but are still otherwise functioning.    

 

GM, for a number of years now, has been dealing with timing chain issues on the early versions of the 3.6 and 3.6 DI.  This covers the engine in the current Lambdas too.  The timing chains will stretch, cause very poor running conditions, and generally F-up the VVT.   Initially GM's response was to recall the unaffected cars and reprogram the Oil Life Monitor to go off at 5k - 8k instead of 10k -12k, but all that does is push the inevitable to outside the warranty time limit. GM did this because they were doing frequent timing chain replacements on vehicles with under 30k miles.  Imagine having to get your timing chain replaced on your Colorado next year.... how upset would you be?  To use your own language; "If GM can't get a timing chain right, technology that has been around for 100+ years, Good lord! What else will go wrong?!"

 

What Tesla is doing is swapping out the entire engine instead of replacing the timing chain because it is faster to just swap out the whole unit.  Do you get the distinction yet?

[ocnblu]

You don't understand my point.  Enjoy your Sunday though!

[Suaviloquent]

You don't understand my point.  Enjoy your Sunday though!

 

He does understand your point. You're looking from a systems perspective and saying that just one piece can be integral to the overall functioning of the vehicle.

 

But it can be boiled down to individual components.

 

People can interpret a great warranty policy as actually a poor product design. Or they think a very strict warranty policy with few documented fixes as a sign of quality. That's just a misinformed way of thinking without knowing the facts.

 

Tesla designed their car to be very modular. So it's kind of like a LEGO plug-and play kind of deal. 

 

And if GM can't get ignition switches right, such a catastrophic design flaw that disables all safety systems, what else could go wrong? If Toyota can't get floor mats and accelerator pedals and electronic throttle control units right, what else could go wrong? If VW cheats with a specific ECU control software to skirt the system, where else are they cheating? If Ford EcoBoost is a hit and a miss in fuel economy, how much are consumers overspending on fuel compared to the ratings? There's so many questionable actions by other automakers, not the least of which are LESS severe than what Tesla is doing.

 

It's easy to take that kind of approach to undermine an entire company. Put it this way. It's not hurting the buyer one bit to have their entire motor replaced no questions asked.

 

But automakers are known to cut corners. Tesla isn't. They are bearing a large cost of the few shortcomings their vehicles have. They can do this, and others can't. 

[FAPTurbo]

snip

You're arguing with an individual whose sole hangup is the powertrain, preferring a propulsion method littered with complexities and a ~20% average efficiency for reasons that are purely emotional and visceral.

FWIW, 97% of Tesla owners would buy one again, which is also mentioned in the same CR survey. There are companies that'd do terrible things (like cheating emissions tests) to get that kind of love.

[Drew Dowdell]

You don't understand my point.  Enjoy your Sunday though!

 

You're saying that swapping out the drive unit is a big deal.  I'm saying it's not and that it is likely not even necessary in many cases, but Tesla is doing it anyway to maintain top consumer satisfaction..... a warranty policy that other companies should consider emulating.  

 

But again, nearly everyone here reading this knows you have an agenda against electric vehicles and Tesla in particular. 

[ocnblu]

"NEARLY" everyone?  I'll have to try harder then. 

 

As far as Tesla bearing costs, where are they getting their money from?  Please explain.  Thank you!

Edited October 25, 2015 by ocnblu

[oldshurst442]

Same place where GM and Chrysler...twice for Chrysler...got theirs to prevent them from folding.

 

Same place where Ford got theirs for R&D in producing environmental friendly technology and engineering. That Fusion electric Hybrid supposedly benefited from that...

 

Same place where BMW and VW/Porsche got theirs to build factories in the USA to employ young Americans to produce gas guzzling SUVs....the opposite spectrum of green technology that Ford and Tesla represent...

 

BLU, you should be happy that an American automotive company is a threat to the Germans finally. A legit threat.

 

When was the last time that a German automotive company scrambled to produce a competitor to anything American?

 

In the last 20 years or so, 'tis the Americans that are chasing that German mojo...but with the Model S, Mercedes, BMW and especially Porsche's lederhosen is soiled with piss as they dont have anything that rivals it...

 

I dont get your hatred?

 

As far as the electric motor goes...dude, all that instantaneous torque should have you salivating....

 

Forget about gasoline, the thought of the only liquid and fluid you have to worry about is windshield washer fluid should have you giddy as a school girl...

 

Oh..I get it now...

You a mechanic....you rely on those oil changes and prestone filled radiators...it keeps the food on your table...if you was smart though, you would try to learn about rotors and stators because quite honestly, that is where the future is...

electric motors...they are everywhere today anyway...only to explode by conquering the automobile industry

[ocnblu]

I am not a mechanic.

[oldshurst442]

I thought you was one.

Sorry for the misunderstanding on that part of the equation...never the less, the rest of my post remains as is as you not being a mechanic bears no relevance to government subsidies of the American Automotive Landscape and fluid free electric vehicles...with much much much torque at one's disposal....instantaneous at that.  

[ocnblu]

Electric cars are like turning off the lights @ 2 a.m.

[G. David Felt]

 

You don't understand my point.  Enjoy your Sunday though!

 

You're saying that swapping out the drive unit is a big deal.  I'm saying it's not and that it is likely not even necessary in many cases, but Tesla is doing it anyway to maintain top consumer satisfaction..... a warranty policy that other companies should consider emulating.  

 

But again, nearly everyone here reading this knows you have an agenda against electric vehicles and Tesla in particular. 

 

There are many companies out there that are also working with Tesla once they pull a battery pack or electric motor and review it by engineering and then sell it cheap to places like EV West in California that will do EV conversions and you can have the Tesla Motor and battery pack used in your auto for the conversion.

 

Drew is correct, a small issue that probably does not require replacement is having Tesla swap out the motor so their engineering can look at it closer to better understand the failure or reduced performance. Tesla I believe knows they have to be better than anyone else if they are to survive long term.

[G. David Felt]

I am not a mechanic.

This guy deals with the body! He likes his steel bodies much better than the aluminum ones!

[G. David Felt]

Electric cars are like turning off the lights @ 2 a.m.

Clarify please?

 

Are you pointing to the 500EV, Nissan Leaf, Spark EV, etc. auto's that all have just 60-80 mile range? As posted in my EV conversion article, you can get 200 mile battery packs and even more all depending on the space you have to hold the batteries and if you are willing to pay for the higher capacity batteries. We now have batteries that can deliver much higher and long battery life so you could drive and enjoy a 2-3 day run before plugging in to charge again.

 

Even with east coast crazy cost of electricity, an EV is still cheaper to run than a petrol auto.

[oldshurst442]

 

I am not a mechanic.

This guy deals with the body! He likes his steel bodies much better than the aluminum ones!

 

Yeah. I did not forget about that. Its just that I automatically thought because he was a body man, he was also a full blown, all out mechanic.

 

Instead...he just bangs on them steel drums like a chimpanzee....

 

Blu... video kill the radio star

 

the electric car will kill the dinosaur car.

 

Better get used to driving down Electric Avenue

 

Being THUNDERSTRUCK by AC and DC

because where there is thunder, there is lightning!

 

I understand you though.

I see you going down in a Blaze of Glory...

 

 

because...the steel horse that you ride, is wanted dead or alive.

 

Times...they are a changin' buddy

 

the winds of change are upon us!

Edited October 26, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

North East cost of electricity is done dirt cheap.

 

At least in Quebec....

[ocnblu]

Are you maybe referring to thunder off Turd Point?

[regfootball]

i think a lot of the CR rap on the tesla was also related to symptoms of what i liken to kit cars.  Tesla hasn't mastered all the expertise that the seasoned carmakers of world have and to be honest if they were selling 30,000 dollar cars they could be forgiven.  But at 100k, those customers have the right to be picky on how trim goes together, things being precise and assembly quality lasting.

 

It sorta exposes the wisdom of whether one wants to be a guinea pig.  I imagine if a GM car had the foibles of the Teslas they would be raked over the coals.  In the meantime the VOlt has the highest satisfaction of any GM car.

[ocnblu]

Meantime I am still waiting on the Tesla parts guy to get back to me with some parts prices so I can finish my customer's estimate and get it in to his insurance company.  What great customer service is this.

[G. David Felt]

Back on Consumer Reports rating:

 

So I found the following story that is supposed to explain how CR tests their auto's and yet with reading it I find many things stated by CR to be a bit fuzzy and confusing.

 

This is a quote from the story:

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/buying-selling/consumer-reports-automotive-ratings.htm

 

Types of Consumer Reports Automotive Ratings

When you check into a vehicle, you'll be able to drill down to many different specific parts to see how they fared in tests and surveys. Here's a list of the various vehicle areas rated by Consumer Reports:

• Engine: major
• Engine: minor
• Engine: cooling
• Transmission and clutch: major
• Transmission and clutch: minor
• Drive system
• Fuel system
• Electrical
• Climate system
• Suspension
• Brakes
• Exhaust
• Paint, trim and rust
• Body integrity
• Body hardware
• Audio system

Consumer Reports requires a minimum sample size of 100 cars to publish auto reliability information; however, most models have much larger samples numbering into the thousands.

Over all it leaves one to believe they try their best but clearly work in a grey fuzzy world.

[Drew Dowdell]

Home Electricity and EV Charging discussion has been moved

[ocnblu]

We still do not have our Tesla parts.  What a great company to deal with.  Top notch service, seen by me first hand. 

[oldshurst442]

We still do not have our Tesla parts.  What a great company to deal with.  Top notch service, seen by me first hand. 

You are NOT the buying customer to have witnessed Tesla customer service...

And the reason why is answered via my question below...

 

Question.

 

The people that own that Tesla that brought it  for YOU to fix it, why didnt they just bring it to a Tesla Service Center?

 

I really dont care for the answer...

 

This aint the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, heck 1990s anymore...

 

Cooter does not have the right tools to work on high tech stuff...

 

Like he did when he worked on the General Lee...

 

 

You know...one does not work on a  Model S like one worked on 1960s muscle...  grab a hammer and start pounding...

 

So...maybe Tesla does not care about those owners as its clear that the owners dont care for their own car...

Or Tesla does not do business with garages that are not certified...

 

Is YOUR garage Tesla certified?

 

Besides...

There does exist Tesla Service centers...

I dont wanna hear how Tesla Service Centers are expensive....the Model S is a 100 000 DOLLAR car!

 

Besides...Tesla also gives you a loaner Model S...

 

Does YOUR garage give your customers a loaner?

I bet if the people have insurance only...

 

You wont find any sympathy from me with those people...so YOU could spin it any way you like...

Edited November 7, 2015 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

Blah blah blah... you don't have a clue of what you're talking about, so ZIP IT.

[oldshurst442]

Blah blah blah... you don't have a clue of what you're talking about, so ZIP IT.

I do...that is why you are behavin' like a child again...

 

Like the last time...

 

So...is YOUR garage Tesla Certified?

 

Probably NOT!!!

 

1. You never told us what you is fixin'

2. A suspension part?

3. the electical motors?

4. A front fender?

 

It dont matter even if its a simple front bumper clip replacement...or a trunk latch...

 

Like I said...Cooter is OBSOLETE when it comes to the Model S...sure...one could work on a simple front fender and do the job themselves...a garage is not even needed...but why even go down that road?

 

One decided to buy a high tech machine...one could go to a Tesla Service Center...

 

Hell...even a Chevrolet Volt owner takes his car to Mr. Goodwrench...

[ocnblu]

You are personally attacking me, my profession and my customer.  In response to me stating a fact.  Don't go down that road.

[oldshurst442]

Im not insulting YOU, nor your profession, nor your customer...

 

 

FACTS are FACTS...

 

Tesla Service Centers EXIST!!!

 

For YEARS now....DECADES...Mr. Goodwrench has MARKETED his way AROUND the Cooter types....

 

The Cooter types have been OBSOLETE since OBD II came to be...

 

So...

 

YOU want me to BELIEVE you and feel SORRY for your customer?

 

1. You still did not reveal what it is your fixin'

2. When in 2015, Camaro owners take their car in and have Mr. Goodwrench take care of whatever is ailing their Camaro and dont trust Cooter anymore, then Tesla Model S owners should be doin' the same...when they dont...they clearly feel the red tape that is involved...

 

Hell...when one leases a car...and the oil changes have NOT been made at a dealership....one has to produce the PAPERWORK that PROVES the RIGHT OILS and the RIGHT INTERVALS were made! 

 

And THAT is on SIMPLE OIL CHANGES!!!

 

 

So...

1. I KNOW you are hiding ALL the truth fro us as you have NOT divulged to us what is the REAL problem...

2. Like I said....the owner of that Tesla HAD an option that would have actually seen the REAL customer service....that owner wanted to circumvent the ideal situation to fix his car...that owner feels the pinch of bureaucracy...

 

PS: crappy bureaucracy is crappy bureaucracy anywhere...and I dont feel bad for him...nor you. 

[ocnblu]

Truth is this:  I posted a while back, and it is time stamped, when a customer dropped off his car to us for repair due to an accident.  Today I posted a relevant fact that contradicts what some sheep have been made to believe.  We have done all we can do for the customer until we get the parts that were ordered too many days ago.  I guarantee you we would have gotten parts for an $80k Benz, BMW, etc., within two days.  This is plain and simple $h!ty service.  And...  I am the customer in this case.  Not impressed with the treatment I've gotten so far.  The owner of the car should not have to suffer for this.  He should have his car back by now.  He is a local man who worked hard and bought an expensive car with his own money.  He did not want to send his car from York to Devon for a minor deer accident.  He should not have to.  The Tesla dealership did not have the necessary parts in stock... THEY HAD TO BE ORDERED FROM TESLA.  THE CAR WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIXED ANY QUICKER IF IT HAD BEEN SHIPPED ALL THE WAY TO DEVON for the repair.  Got it now?

[oldshurst442]

Truth is this:  I posted a while back, and it is time stamped, when a customer dropped off his car to us for repair due to an accident.  Today I posted a relevant fact that contradicts what some sheep have been made to believe.  We have done all we can do for the customer until we get the parts that were ordered too many days ago.  I guarantee you we would have gotten parts for an $80k Benz, BMW, etc., within two days.  This is plain and simple $h!ty service.  And...  I am the customer in this case.  Not impressed with the treatment I've gotten so far.  The owner of the car should not have to suffer for this.  He should have his car back by now.  He is a local man who worked hard and bought an expensive car with his own money.  He did not want to send his car from York to Devon for a minor deer accident.  He should not have to.  The Tesla dealership did not have the necessary parts in stock... THEY HAD TO BE ORDERED FROM TESLA.  THE CAR WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIXED ANY QUICKER IF IT HAD BEEN SHIPPED ALL THE WAY TO DEVON for the repair.  Got it now?

 

 

THEY HAD TO BE ORDERED FROM TESLA.  THE CAR WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIXED ANY QUICKER IF IT HAD BEEN SHIPPED ALL THE WAY TO DEVON for the repair.  Got it now?

So...if the parts are delayed....what difference is it compared to mainstream makers?

 

I know of a family who had to wait 3 months for an electric window motor that had to come from Germany for her 1994 Audi...back in 1996 or something...

I had to wait 7-8 months to fix a recall on my 2013 Ford Fusion...

 

 

What a joke your dilemma is...

Edited November 7, 2015 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

You are right about one tiny aspect of your argument.  It is a joke.  And you sound like Hillary Clinton...  "what difference is it..."?  Really?  This is a company that does not want you to look behind the curtain.  This is a company that holds themselves in great regard on every aspect of how they do business... but they cannot come up with a proper parts distribution network to service their customer.

Edited November 7, 2015 by ocnblu

[oldshurst442]

You are right about one tiny aspect of your argument.  It is a joke.

YOUR argument that is...

 

A parts supply issue...

 

NOTHING to do with CUSTOMER SERVICE...YOU said it YOURSELF, that even if the car was shipped to a service center...

 

Dude...an freakin electric window motor had to come from Germany....3-4 months...the lady drove her Audi...in Montreal winter with the window down....for a freakin electric window motor...

 

 

BLU....the more you complain about stuff, the more I see you as a child...

 

PS: You still did not say why your client did not take the car to Tesla...

 

Situations like these and Im sure Tesla has loaners...

 

Hell, I used to get loaners from GM when my cars were in the shop longer than what was supposed to be....free of charge...

 

That would be between MY dealer and myself...but still...CUSTOMER SERVICE is what THIS is about....

He decided to come to YOU....WHAT are YOU doing for YOUR customer now that his Tesla is out of commision....had he brouht HIS car to Tesla....well...I dont want to assume anything....but Im sure he would be driving a loaner Tesla....Parts availability is a fickle thing when it comes down to companies that are less than General Motors, Ford, Toyota manufacturing...

Edited November 7, 2015 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

That's her problem if she can't tape shut a window glass while she waits for a window motor.  That was in 1996.  This is 2015.  And Audi is not the high and mighty Tesla.  Tesla is portraying themselves as being on point... high tech solutions and all that, sooo superior to the rust belt and all that old school way of doing things.  PARTS DISTRIBUTION HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!  Stop acting like a n00b.  HILARIOUS.

 

Customer is in a rental car per the terms of his insurance policy (for military folks and their families) that he negotiated with them.  Customer's wife drives a 2015 Silverado High Country which she loves.  They are not hurting for transportation.  But part of owning an expensive (I hesitate to use the term "luxury" to describe Tesla) car is the understandable notion that you will be treated accordingly.  Customer is a very nice guy.  He chose us because his insurance company recommended us and he stated he was happy to hear their recommendation because he knows we are a quality shop.

 

For someone who prides himself on a job well done, it affects me when a car is sitting gathering dust.  I don't know how much more childlike I can be in my honesty.

Edited November 7, 2015 by ocnblu