Beautiful Cars Appreciation Thread

[balthazar]

[balthazar]

[balthazar]

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

[balthazar]

[balthazar]

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Gotta Love stories about one off concept that engineers built. This is Sexy for the era.

General Motors Engineers Built A One-Off Buick Tire Shredder (jalopnik.com)

300 HP NorthStar FWD Riviera!!!

Here is one for @balthazar

Bagged 1960s Buick Riviera GS Has Saucy Candy Apple Red Land Yacht Digital Vibes - autoevolution

Have to say a modern touch on a classic here really works for me. Love the body flowing lines.

[balthazar]

^ Red resto-mod is a ‘66-67, but the bottom car is the ‘63-65 body; 2 different body shells. 
The white wheels are abominable, but the rest is pure Buick Styling : 

It’s incredibly hard to do any significant improvements, stylistically, to a ‘66-67 Riv. Tho not as popular or iconic as the ‘63-65s, they are near perfection in line, proportion and detail. Not that the earlier cars are easy to improve upon either…

[riviera74]

I'll take that mid-60s White Riviera, please.  The last ones (made in 1995-99) do nothing for me.  I would rather have a same model year Aurora over the last Rivieras.

[oldshurst442]

I like the exterior of those mid 1990s Rivieras.  I do prefer the Aurora tho. 

I like the design of the Riviera interior. It took great inspiration from the original interior.  I dont like the execution and materials chosen. (too plasticky and very very cheap looking)

The Aurora's interior is much better executed.  A peg or two above the Riviera's interior with slightly better materials. More refined and much more upscale in appearance and feel.

Too bad GM had to beancount that interior. The original Riviera interior was exquisite. 

 

versus

[riviera74]

I have to agree, oldshurst442.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

Love that Eldorado in Palm Springs pic.  The XJ... something? is neat too.

[oldshurst442]

mid to late '70s Jag XJC 5.3 V12

 

[Robert Hall]

On 4/7/2022 at 1:02 AM, balthazar said:

^ Red resto-mod is a ‘66-67, but the bottom car is the ‘63-65 body; 2 different body shells. 
The white wheels are abominable, but the rest is pure Buick Styling : 

It’s incredibly hard to do any significant improvements, stylistically, to a ‘66-67 Riv. Tho not as popular or iconic as the ‘63-65s, they are near perfection in line, proportion and detail. Not that the earlier cars are easy to improve upon either…

The E-bodies in '66-67 (Riv, Toro, and '67 Eldo) were a high point for GM design, IMO...beautifully styled cars.  

IIRC, the photo of the gold Eldo in Palm Springs is a photo from an article in Motor Trend Classic about 15 years ago (short-lived premium magazine from Motor Trend). 

Love the Citroen SM, Jag,  and Continental also.   The SM is one of my favorite '70s European cars. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

I had another posted another pic of the Citroen. I nicer pic. But I guess trademark rules applied.  The one I found will have to do. 

[Drew Dowdell]

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I like the exterior of those mid 1990s Rivieras.  I do prefer the Aurora tho. 

I like the design of the Riviera interior. It took great inspiration from the original interior.  I dont like the execution and materials chosen. (too plasticky and very very cheap looking)

The Aurora's interior is much better executed.  A peg or two above the Riviera's interior with slightly better materials. More refined and much more upscale in appearance and feel.

Too bad GM had to beancount that interior. The original Riviera interior was exquisite. 

 

versus

Those 90's Riv interiors look substantially better with the full-width wood treatment.

Even going back to the 80s

[Robert Hall]

I saw one of those Rivs at a car show once that had been modified with a carbon fiber dash/door/console trim..got the dry heaves just looking at it (I despise the use of carbon fiber for interior trim, whether it is real or faux)..

[oldshurst442]

An improvement for sure.  But not quite convincing of being a high end vehicle.  Especially when GM with Buick and Oldsmobile, at this point wanted to attract the younger, hipper crowd.

While the Riviera had a bigger font in the speedometer dials for the older generation to better see the numbers...the Riviera was  geared for the Audi A4,  Acura Legend types.  Much like the Aurora.  The all wood interior just chased the younger crowd away faster. 

Ironically, an all black plasticky interior would have benefitted the Riviera more than the beige (or god awful blue) or the all wood one.  That is what the Germans and Japanese did.  All black plastic. With a tiny strip of plood across the dash as an option. If any wood trim at all.

[Drew Dowdell]

17 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

An improvement for sure.  But not quite convincing of being a high end vehicle.  Especially when GM with Buick and Oldsmobile, at this point wanted to attract the younger, hipper crowd.

While the Riviera had a bigger font in the speedometer dials for the older generation to better see the numbers...the Riviera was  geared for the Audi A4,  Acura Legend types.  Much like the Aurora.  The all wood interior just chased the younger crowd away faster. 

Ironically, an all black plasticky interior would have benefitted the Riviera more than the beige (or god awful blue) or the all wood one.  That is what the Germans and Japanese did.  All black plastic. With a tiny strip of plood across the dash as an option. If any wood trim at all.

The upper end of Buick at the time was trying to be an American Jaguar in their styling... hamstrung entirely by the GM bean counters. It was Cadillac with their ill-conceived Catera that was to aim for the A4.  They tried and failed... but that was Cadillac's problem, not Buick's. Also... A4 and Legend were fairly different segments. A4 was Catera's job, Legend was Aurora's job.

When you consider that this would have been their benchmark, the full width wood,

it makes a lot more sense why the dashboard of the last Riviera looks empty without the wood.  And those woodkits look tacked on because they are... had they been from the factory, they would have looked better.

 

But this is really hard to deny what the goal was...

and this...

 

Even the LeSabre got in on the fun...even down to similar wheel styles...

And it goes both ways because look what Jaguar came up with style wise 4 years after the final Riviera debuted....

 

Now, I will fully concede that Buick was pretty restricted due to platform and powertrain constraints and also was making cars that were "American sized"... but when you consider that the LeSabre was also being shared with the Eighty-Eight and Bonneville, and the Park Ave was being shared with the Aurora, Deville, and Riviera.... I think Buick did a pretty darn good job from a styling perspective of trying to be an American Jaguar on a budget. You just don't get much closer than these without being in the same brand.

Buick wasn't aiming for Audi/Acura buyers at all. GM wasn't even playing in that market from any brand outside of the Catera and Aurora.... possibly... maybe... the Intrigue if it hadn't been tuned to drive like a grandma car with severely overboosted steering. They got the exterior styling on it right for the Audi/Acura set, but the interior, powertrain, suspension, and steering were all wrong. CTS didn't show up until 2003 as the first serious attempt.

 

[oldshurst442]

Yeah. Buick was trying to be the American Jag.  I agree.  And you clearly drove home the point.  I love your choice of pics to compare and contrast! 

The Aurora and Oldsmobile was the sporty German/Japanese alternative.  The Catera tried to right the wrong wheel drive approach to competing with the Germans when they introduced the 1990s STS.

But this is where the Aurora comes in. The G Platform (Aurora and Riviera) and the K Platform (Deville/Seville/Eldorado) were derivatives of each other.  Marketing for the Aurora, Riviera, Seville were all derivative of each other too.  To be alternative German and Japanese sporty and luxury competitors. 

The Riviera's historic past was more closely attached to be a natural rival to a Jag, and that is where Buick's marketing was tuned to, true, but also, the Riviera, JUST the Riviera, was also looking to go younger DESPITE having larger fonts for the speedometer.  Hence Audi.  Audi saw a renaissance. Buick with this Riviera, also saw a way to rejuvenate itself trying to younger.  And it helped that Oldsmobile did exactly that and sparked it off with the Aurora. The Riviera would ride that coat tail,  the coupe platform mate of the Aurora.

Cadillac would also get a THIRD try to entice  yuppies from buying BMWs.  The first was the Cimarron. The second try was the NorthStar STS, and the third try was the Catera.  

I mentioned the A4, because Audi too, was damned serious in dethroning the 3 Series.  But maybe I should have said the A6. But the A6 was a sedan and the Riviera was a coupe. But the Aurora definitely was aimed at the Audi A6 market.  Sure, the A4 was a sedan too,  but the Catera was more in tune to do battle with the 3 Series than it was rto do battle with the A4.  RWD. The A4 was FWD/AWD.  Riviera was FWD.

But yeah, everything in this class was a derivative of each other is what Im trying to say. Albeit not eloquently. 

It IS a good thing you dont charge by the word. LOL.  

Edited April 8, 2022 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

35 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But yeah, everything in this class was a derivative of each other is what Im trying to say. Albeit not eloquently. 

I guess the point I was trying to make (and failed) was that these are all different classes... or at least different niches.  I know @balthazar has started agreeing with @smk4565 lately in that two different cars in the same price bracket compete directly with each other even if they have vastly different purposes.... so he'd likely agree with you that this:

Was intended to compete with this:

Just because they were both in the mid-$30k range.

But even back in the early 90s, there were two very distinct classes of luxury cars.  There was the big, floaty, posh stuff that I like.... this would include stuff like the Seville/Deville, Park Ave, XJ, S-Class/E-Class, and Lexus ES/GS/LS.  This is where the woodgrain would be found.   And then there would be the stark, sports oriented luxury cars like the 3/5/7 Series, the Integra/Vigor/Legend, Infiniti J/M/Q.  I'm loathe to include the A4 here because all I see is a B-series Passat.... but I guess I have to... and the A6 to go with it.

Somehow... this 1995 5-series... manual rotary dials and all... became the benchmark of a luxury car when Buick not only was doing duel-zone automatic climate control, but had single zone automatic climate control for a decade and even had touch screens. Cadillac had been doing automatic digital climate as early as 1980... but here we are looking at a 1995 BMW with cable operated dials that is somehow superior.

To my mind, these are distinct classes of luxury car... one is Luxury the other was once called Luxury Sport (remember the time 10-15 years ago where EVERY sedan was a luxury sport sedan?... even ones that had no business trying to claim it?).  Unfortunately, the purist luxury car segment is mostly gone except for the extreme ends of the S-class line and, oddly, the G90.

The Aurora was probably GM's best initial effort at going after the new luxury-sport imports. Yes it was larger than a Legend or ES, but it was every bit as luxury as those and wore the new minimalist styling well. Plus you got a 250 hp / 260 lb-ft V8 instead of a mediocre 188 hp from the ES or 200 hp from the Legend.  Of course because it was a $31k car the rags compared it to the 328 and C-class even though it was so much more car than them.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I guess the point I was trying to make (and failed) was that these are all different classes... or at least different niches.  I know @balthazar has started agreeing with @smk4565 lately in that two different cars in the same price bracket compete directly with each other even if they have vastly different purposes.... so he'd likely agree with you that this:

Was intended to compete with this:

Just because they were both in the mid-$30k range.

But even back in the early 90s, there were two very distinct classes of luxury cars.  There was the big, floaty, posh stuff that I like.... this would include stuff like the Seville/Deville, Park Ave, XJ, S-Class/E-Class, and Lexus ES/GS/LS.  This is where the woodgrain would be found.   And then there would be the stark, sports oriented luxury cars like the 3/5/7 Series, the Integra/Vigor/Legend, Infiniti J/M/Q.  I'm loathe to include the A4 here because all I see is a B-series Passat.... but I guess I have to... and the A6 to go with it.

Somehow... this 1995 5-series... manual rotary dials and all... became the benchmark of a luxury car when Buick not only was doing duel-zone automatic climate control, but had single zone automatic climate control for a decade and even had touch screens. Cadillac had been doing automatic digital climate as early as 1980... but here we are looking at a 1995 BMW with cable operated dials that is somehow superior.

To my mind, these are distinct classes of luxury car... one is Luxury the other was once called Luxury Sport (remember the time 10-15 years ago where EVERY sedan was a luxury sport sedan?... even ones that had no business trying to claim it?).  Unfortunately, the purist luxury car segment is mostly gone except for the extreme ends of the S-class line and, oddly, the G90.

The Aurora was probably GM's best initial effort at going after the new luxury-sport imports. Yes it was larger than a Legend or ES, but it was every bit as luxury as those and wore the new minimalist styling well. Plus you got a 250 hp / 260 lb-ft V8 instead of a mediocre 188 hp from the ES or 200 hp from the Legend.  Of course because it was a $31k car the rags compared it to the 328 and C-class even though it was so much more car than them.

I think body style/vehicle type and size is where you start, then price point for comparisons.  The Honda Accord and E-class are the same size, but not competitors due to price.  
 

I wouldn’t say the A4 and Riviera were competition as one is 2 door and they almost 2 feet in length apart.

As far as the BMW goes, it was built with quality where as the Riviera for example had acres of GM plastic in it.  And the BMW could handle.

In actuality, it is Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus, Jaguar and maybe some others that made BMW and Mercedes the bench mark.  Mercedes and BMW haven’t really changed in 40 years other than it is SUVs instead of sedans and sedans instead of coupes.  It is cars like the Gen 1 CTS, Lincoln LS, Infiniti G37, Lexus GS300, etc that made BMW the benchmark because they were telling consumers a BMW-like car is what luxury is, and now all those cars are gone because people just kept buying BMWs.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

As far as the BMW goes, it was built with quality where as the Riviera for example had acres of GM plastic in it.  And the BMW could handle.

You look at the 1995 5-series picture and *dont* see acres of plastic and cheap Casio keyboard buttons to go with the hard plastic cable operated manual hvac?

[G. David Felt]

42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You look at the 1995 5-series picture and *dont* see acres of plastic and cheap Casio keyboard buttons to go with the hard plastic cable operated manual hvac?

Of course not, he has been drinking the German Koolaid far too long to see all that hard plastic and manual crap.

I honestly would go as far as to say that the 90's sucked for the Europeans as much as it did for the Americans IMHO.

[surreal1272]

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

As far as the BMW goes, it was built with quality where as the Riviera for example had acres of GM plastic in it.  And the BMW could handle.

No the hell it was not. It’s only selling point was performance. That thing, as evidenced by the pic above, had just as much plastic as anything from GM and that’s saying something. There was not one thing luxury about it. I know you now down to all things German but you need your eyes checked if you don’t see the plastic hell that was in those. 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You look at the 1995 5-series picture and *dont* see acres of plastic and cheap Casio keyboard buttons to go with the hard plastic cable operated manual hvac?

It isn't as good as an E-class of the era, W124 or W210, but was still better built than a Buick and it had real wood trim, not plastic wood like a 90s Park Ave.  I am not saying the 1995 5-series was anything great, the E39 made improvements all around, but Cadillac, Lincoln and Lexus all abandoned what they used to do to chase the E39, the G35 arrived to battle the 3-series.  That justified the BMW as the benchmark car and  in part caused the market shift.  And then they all gave up and went on to make front wheel drive crossovers and "American Luxury" basically died in the process, except in the Escalade which is big and plush and tacky/gawdy, in the vein of a 60-70s Cadillac and that is the only American luxury car that sells.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

No the hell it was not. It’s only selling point was performance. That thing, as evidenced by the pic above, had just as much plastic as anything from GM and that’s saying something. There was not one thing luxury about it. I know you now down to all things German but you need your eyes checked if you don’t see the plastic hell that was in those. 

Compared to this sea of monotone GM plastic, the BMW was better, although I am sure a 5-series cost more.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Compared to this sea of monotone GM plastic, the BMW was better, although I am sure a 5-series cost more.

Two things.

One: It still has a better design flow than any BMW or Benz of that era and even in monotone, it looks better than the 5 series mentioned above. 
 

Two: There were other color options that you, of course, ignored. 
 

 

And quite honestly, you are out of your German loving mind if you think it looks worse than these (slabs of plastic and all):

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

except in the Escalade which is big and plush and tacky/gawdy,

(Looks at your average blinked out G-Wagen and laugh at your Escalade assessment like it’s the only one capable of looking “tacky/gawdy”. 
 

Just astounds me the level off BS you resort to when putting down domestics yet ignore similar or worse issues with the Germans. Pathetic. 

[oldshurst442]

I have gone down a rabbit hole and came across this particular car.  I dont know much about it.  I think it was a Russian Oligarch company producing these things for very exclusive Russian Oligarch billionaires reminiscing about the  good 'ole Commie days. I dont think many were made though.  The looks are based off a Volga car of the '50s or '60s.  Dont know much about those originals either. Not that I care to know more about them.  The car is based on a  1980s/1990s BMW 850 using its V12 engine as well.  I think it was made in 2005.   Anyway, I think its a very pretty car and would have loved to own one.  

 

 

Looking at the interior, the Russians retained the 850's interior. But spruced it up with the always upscale and popular contrasting French stitching. 

 

And here is the 850. Which at the time, I thought it to be a grossly overrated car.  But as time has marched on and folk have largely forgotten about it, I now think its a car grossly UNDERRATED.  

Im always against the grain concerning BMW. 

 

[riviera74]

Regardless, GM failed to understand that if a customer wants a BMW, he/she will get one.  GM failed to understand this when they released the Cimarron in 1982, the original STS in 1992 and the original CTS in 2003.  Neither Buick nor Oldsmobile should have tried to turn Acura/Lexus owners over for the same reasons. 

I would argue that if Olds/Buick had a RWD large car (NOT the old B-Body!), I believe that both could have done better in the near-luxury market.  (An upgraded Intrigue and Regal would have helped too.) Wood (when done right) is good.  Why anyone my age or younger hates wood is beyond me.  Why would anyone settle for black plastic and maybe a little silver trim and call it luxury?  The Lexus (from an interior standpoint) did the luxury thing right, especially the LS and probably the ES as well.

The saddest part is that, if GM had any real foresight and imagination, Olds could have been saved (or repurposed as Aurora).  Buick had China already, so they would be OK from a sales standpoint.  Then again, Buick in China is arguably better than Buick here.

[oldshurst442]

[oldshurst442]

[oldshurst442]

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

 

[oldshurst442]

[oldshurst442]

Can I call these the Boston Bruins edition Mustangs instead of the Hertz Editions?

Dont care, these are the Boston Bruins Mustangs from now on!  

Perfection

Perfection Line

Edited May 10, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

There was once upon a time when shooting it up about cars surfin' the webs was an actual thing.  Eons ago, many posters were posting and chatting up fun little thread games. I done a lot of soul searching during these little thread games and learnt a lot about what kind of cars I truly liked and disliked.  I also learned a lot about cars I didnt know existed and other times,  simply had forgotten other cars that did exist.  Many different points of views were shared.  It truly was a blast.  

Anyway, 

I was just thinking about wagons the other day, and I posted this exact post in an attempt to resurrect a thread. The post went through but didnt make it.  Long story short, I copy/pasted it here with an edit for an explanation.  Anyway...

 I have learnt that I am not much of a wagon guy, but over the course of 120 years or so of the history of the automobile, there have been some wagons that I wouldnt mind owning to chauffeur my wife and kids around lugging our family's crap around.  

 

I dont remember all the wagons I chose in those threads  but these 5 wagons I know I truly liked then and I still like in 2022 and I know I will always like. 

1

2

3

4

5

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Edited May 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

I wanna know why, all of a sudden, the Nissan Z is so praised for its looks and profile  when it really is the same car as when it came out 15 years ago.  The Z I posted on top there, has the SAME profile. Its just a refreshed front and rear, the new one is...

 

OK, the rear hunches are massaged as well to have less child bearing hips. Its less of a Coke bottle design 

 

Am I the only one to prefer the refreshed 370Z version more than the re-refreshed 2022?

Original 350Z

 

I do prefer the newest version over the OG, though.

[Robert Hall]

I like the new Z, never cared for the 370.  I liked the 350.  My favorite Z is still the 90s 300ZX.    Alas, the rest of Nissan's current US lineup is mostly lame appliances w/ CVTs...