VW News: EPA Alleges Volkswagen Used Software on Diesel Vehicles To Skirt Clean-Air Rules

[oldshurst442]

Well this is a very complex issue. In Some ways you want to hate them, Some ways you almost have to smile at how they did it and then you have to wonder that how many more things are automakers getting desperate about.

 

 

Yes...it is a very complex issue. Especially when there might be other automakers with diesel engines that may not be so clean...I have a feeling..VW may not be the only one to circumvent...however, they did get caught regardless if first and more automakers to come or the only ones...

 

However...contrary to how you and others feel about it...and yes..very clever...ingenious...but...

 

http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/audi-s-truth-engineering-ads-back-bite-amid-probe/300472/

 

 

That link contains a video clip link about an Audi commercial that aired during last week's Emmys...

 

It aint easy being green....touting the new Audi A3 hybrid...

 

Also...

 

The Green Police....Superbowl Commercial a while back...

 

I dont know about you...I dont enjoye being LIED too...being made FUN of...being TRICKED and FOOLED...

 

 

The truth is the government wants to legislate fossil fuel cars out but we are still not to the point with electrics that you could live a life not planed around charging cycles. No not even the Tesla before some Musk zealot chines in.

 

Well...the government HAS to legislate fossil fuel cars...look how VW is trying to circumvent...you say they are desperate...I say they arent trying hard enough...these are German engineers after all...nothing but the best, right? They did help get America to the moon, right? Rockets...Arthur Rudolph and Wernher von Braun were German engineers...*COUGH-NAZIs-COUGH*  that America hired after the war...to not only get to the moon, but ballistic missiles...I mean...if German engineering can get to the moon, surely a few MPGs may not be that hard to gain...after all, these NAZI minded VW engineers did think of a VERY SLY way to CIRCUMVENT...

A little bird told me that anabolic steroids were also of a NAZI regime era invention...and the East Germans totally used that during the Olympics FIRST....it seems to me that Germans are MASTERS of CHEATING!!! So there is that!

 

About Tesla and battery charging and not enough stations...

 

Quebec has thought of a nice plan...but I wont talk about Hydro-Quebec's solution...I read this past week of an ingenious way that the Brits are thinking about...and it involves a technology that is similar to wireless  charging systems for smart phones...

 

http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/advanced-cars/british-highway-will-recharge-your-batteries-as-you-drive

 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/uk-electric-cars-roads/

 

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/08/the-uk-is-testing-roads-that-recharge-your-electric-car-as-you-drive/401276/

 

Three links...choose and read one of them...

 

So...there is that also...

 

 

To take a chance like this VW has to be very pressed here. That is not unexcused but just an observation.

I know...Im just trying to give you an intelligent rebuttal....

 

 

In one way I have to almost smile as this was nearly a Smokey Yunick like trick. I loved Smokey and how he fought the system but you still have to pay the price when caught.

Yeah...it honestly put a small smile on my face...but my rebuttal to you is really how I feel...I dont like being duped and made fun of...especially when destroying the planet is concerned...yeah...those commercials are the culprit of my frustrations...

 

I am NOT a tree hugger....but I certainly dont condone pollution...but its this corporate marketing BS that I HATE the most...Green Police...It aint easy being green...while true dont lie that VW AG is a "green" company when KNOWINGLY you circumvent laws...

 

The painting of ALL Germans in 2015 as Nazis is just me being melodramatic...Im Greek after all...its what we do...

 

 

Im more or less in agreement with the rest of your post...

As far as VW/Porsche/Mercedes and Hitler...GM and Ford were also tied to Hitler....GM...through Opel...produced Nazi Germany's transport trucks...

 

The USA hired Von Braun...NASA, GM and Von Braun collaborated together...Id say the Nazi thing is played out enough...

 

 

PS...I more peeved at this world wide corporate culture society that lets corporate greed rule us than the actual VW emissions scandal...this corrupt corporate culture needs to stop world wide...

[smk4565]

 

The problem with the 11,000 deaths thing, is how much of the diesel pollution is from trucks and buses.  I would guess all the semi-trucks, Ford Super Duty Powerstroke diesels, school buses, city buses, delivery vans, etc out there are polluting a heck of a lot more than 500,000 Jettas and Golfs.  I get stuck behind buses that spew way more fumes than any 10 cars combined I'd guess, so where is the push for making city buses electric or natural gas only and outlawing diesel public transportation?  The whole thing is a double standard.

 

That being said, VW blatantly cheated the system and should be fined and punished for what they did.  I do think they'll get made an example of and their diesel sales may never recover, especially since to get the emissions they need it will add a lot of cost to the car and/or take away performance.

 

The problem with recalling these, is I think a lot of owners won't want to fix the car.  The fix is going to be to turn the emission control system on all the time and take away power and make the car feel slower and less fun to drive.  A lot of owners aren't going to want to give away performance and fuel economy just so the car meets emissions.

 

 

 

Looks like those BIllions U kept yammering on about Audi investing might be put on a weeee bit of hold. 

 

U kno what Smk.. go to your room.. and don't come out till your told. That German engineering U always hold so high, is as I have predicted for a life time it seems.. as being nothing but "Smoke and Mirrors.. NOX"

 

 Literally how a person feels after following a VW Diesel for too long >>> 

 

VW may have cheated the system, but BMW and Mercedes did not.  Mercedes engineering is still at the pinnacle of human achievement.

 

I would bet that a Silverado HD Duramax puts out more Nox emissions than a Jetta TDI.  If that is the case, GM should be fined whatever VW gets fined.  Because those Duramaxes and Ford Power Strokes are polluting the air just as bad.

 

I think for sure VW should get fined and they deserve what they get.   They misled and lied to the consumer, and their reputation should get shot too.  The fine wont' be $1 billion or more, if you look back at previous car company fines there were never that big and always in the millions.  GM knew it's ignition switches could lead to accidents and deaths, to me that is still worse than cheating an emissions test. 

 

I also think there should be one standard for emissions for all vehicles.  To me trucks should not be emission exempt or CAFE exempt, they should have to fall into the same equation.  Until you get to the Ford F700 medium duty level vehicles that are like 20,000 lb GVWR.

[smk4565]

 

 

PS...I more peeved at this world wide corporate culture society that lets corporate greed rule us than the actual VW emissions scandal...this corrupt corporate culture needs to stop world wide...

 

Agreed with that.  The greed is what breeds the corruption, and often to just make the investors and CEO's wealthier while the workers don't get anything.  Lots of other stuff causes pollution and no one cares.  So let's clean everything up then.

[El Kabong]

"Mercedes engineering is at the pinnacle of human achievement."

Uh... no.

I'll grant that there were a few Germans involved, but the Manhattan and Apollo projects are much, much greater than any mere automobile.

[smk4565]

To make an earlier point of mine more clear.  I think VW should be fined for cheating the emission test and lying to the consumer.  I don't think they should be fined for their emissions leading to respiratory problems, because there are a lot of other things that are probably causing more air pollution.

[oldshurst442]

To make an earlier point of mine more clear.  I think VW should be fined for cheating the emission test and lying to the consumer.  I don't think they should be fined for their emissions leading to respiratory problems, because there are a lot of other things that are probably causing more air pollution.

 

 

Sure...there are far worse things that cause far worse air pollution...but just because VW's 'clean' diesel pollutes less than other sources of air pollution...it DOES NOT MAKE IT LESS PROBLEMATIC therefore LESS PUNISHABLE...pollution is still pollution...

 

Ted Bundy is no less a monster than Adolf Hitler because the death count is less...

 

Like I said...I have more of a problem with corrupt corporate culture than the actual VW circumventing thing in itself...but...Im still peeved at the fact that VW promoted and marketed and sold to the citizens of the world that their diesels are actually compliant with the EXISTING laws...THEY LIED to the citizens of the world...THIS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY...its part of the corrupt corporate culture that we need to change...

Edited September 27, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

I ran out of editing time...

 

IE...VW CEOs should not only get the axe...THEY should get HEAVILY fined PERSONALLY (enough to bankrupt them personally, because they have bankrupted morals and ethics)  and sent to jail...ITS CRIMINAL what they did...to frauding the public with FALSE claims of what their products do and for KILLING the planet KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY...

[smk4565]

I do agree that the VW CEO, well the former one, should be fined personally.  Because he got paid something like $28 million as a retirement, or payoff or whatever it was on his way out the door.  Basically quitting your job and getting paid $28 million to sit at home is no punishment.  He should have to pay that money back.

 

And the punishment has to be for the lying and the cheating of the tests.  They should be fined for their actions to knowingly sell a non-compliant car and lie about it.  I don't think VW should be fined for polluting the air, because then you have to fine Gillig buses, Freightliner trucks, International, Caterpillar, etc who all make diesel engines.

[Sharpner46]

I drive a Volkswagen and was shocked when this story broke. Never expected this from a company like Volkswagen but I suppose they were getting desperate considering how poorly their sales were doing in the US. Over the long term I think they'll bounce back as most large companies do from scandals such as this. Volkswagen drivers buy their vehicles for their design and quality, not just because they're "clean". They definitely will have taken a huge hit financially though, not just from fines but from the delay in releasing their 2016 vehicles. I bet the old CEO is laughing his way to a luxurious retirement.

[hyperv6]

 

PS...I more peeved at this world wide corporate culture society that lets corporate greed rule us than the actual VW emissions scandal...this corrupt corporate culture needs to stop world wide...

You are thinking way too deep here. Nazi's and cooperate greed?

The truth is we each if put in the right place with the right temptation or pressure have the ability to do something of this nature or even something more sinister. It is in the nature of everyone born.

When it all comes down do you have the strength and caricature to choose wisely? Most people don't because they are worried about themselves or for the wrong reasons.

While this was a dishonest choice of a company I can show you people on the environmental side that have done things as bad or worse because they deemed it a worthy move like burning new building projects and God only knows how many Hummers were burned. Sorry but that is not any better either.

I am tired of people pointing the finger at Cooperate Greed. It is all of us. No matter if you believe in God or not we have taken right and wrong from our society and people do as they will with no shame or moral compass anymore.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Bosch supplied VW with the software in 2007 for testing only. They warned them it was illegal to install in vehicles sold to the public and it was for testing purposes only

 

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/timeline-events-vw-pollution-cheating-scandal-155214988.html;_ylt=AwrC1zFIfglWjSMAtZKTmYlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByamYyaDNyBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM4BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

[Cory Wolfe]

I guess now's the time to buy the used TDI of my dreams... 

[El Kabong]

And to think that all you used to have to worry about with old VWs was the electrical systems

[oldshurst442]

 

PS...I more peeved at this world wide corporate culture society that lets corporate greed rule us than the actual VW emissions scandal...this corrupt corporate culture needs to stop world wide...

You are thinking way too deep here. Nazi's and cooperate greed?

The truth is we each if put in the right place with the right temptation or pressure have the ability to do something of this nature or even something more sinister. It is in the nature of everyone born.

When it all comes down do you have the strength and caricature to choose wisely? Most people don't because they are worried about themselves or for the wrong reasons.

While this was a dishonest choice of a company I can show you people on the environmental side that have done things as bad or worse because they deemed it a worthy move like burning new building projects and God only knows how many Hummers were burned. Sorry but that is not any better either.

I am tired of people pointing the finger at Cooperate Greed. It is all of us. No matter if you believe in God or not we have taken right and wrong from our society and people do as they will with no shame or moral compass anymore.

Ill get back to the Nazis part...I did say melodrama...because Im Greek...meaning Im trolling...but not really...Ill explain later...

 

Listen...we cannot worry about what our neighbor does...if he wants to throw his Tim Hortons coffee cup on the ground...its his problem...and ours...but if a cop sees him...he will face a fine...

 

Of course its in all of us to sin.

To be envious...

To be gluttonous.

To covet thy neighbour's wife.

To pollute...

 

The problem is...

That most of us dont run a company...

 

I do. I own a restaurant.

I run my restaurant ethically and morally and WITHIN the laws...

 

I dont pollute...

I dont sell spoiled foods...

 

It is MY PERSONAL duties as well as my PROFESSIONAL duties concerning my community and my town and my planet...

 

It starts with us?

Of course it starts with you and me...so... I wont pollute and YOU dont pollute...

 

What about big corporations?

Well...its up to THEM NOT to pollute...

 

What is our recourse?

Well...thank GOD we have LEGAL entities like the EPA to protect us and OUR environment...

And hopefully drop the CRIMINAL CHARGES upon those that dont comply...

 

What else can we do?

Maybe boycott?

 

Sure...but that comes AFTER the fact...

We CANT boycott a company if we think that company is on the up and up...

 

 

And THIS is where the NAZI part comes in...

 

 

We are SOOOOOOO bloody quick to forgive and forget...

Edited September 28, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

And according to Bosch...VW was well aware...and Bosch warned them its ILLEGAL to install in the cars...

 

As per Casa's link...so...

 

yeah...stay sick and tired of people pointing fingers at corporate greed...but be EVEN MORE sick and tired of disgusting bankrupted morally CEOs and EXECs that take advantage of us...

[El Kabong]

Guy...

Not forgiving and forgetting in 1918 was largely what led to 1939.

And while VW screwed up royally, the Nazi stuff really is a bit much. If the Israeli navy can buy German U-boats for their ballistic missles then we all can buy Jettas with a clean conscience.

[oldshurst442]

Yeah...I know..

 

1918...Treaty of Versaille...leading to WW2...

 

I understand all that...

 

It took a helluva a looooong time for the Israelis to warm up to them Germans...

Maybe this had something to do with it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dont worry though...this Nazi argument I got going on is just for show...but not really...

 

The Jews might have forgotten...but THIS GREEK boy hasnt...

 

 

I did forget...for a little while...

 

But the last couple of years...memories kept coming back...

 

 

And all that...it aint because Greeks are corrupt people or lazy...

 

But German corrupt banking and politics that helped Greece sink...and the promise of the FIRST AUSTERITY measures did NOTHING to help Greece but ONLY help Germany...

 

OK..NOW I am taking this too far...but am I really?

 

I dont feel like protecting German jobs...

why?

1. Greece

2. I live in North America...Id rather buy American...Im just as proud to be Canadian as I am Greek...and Im just about as proud to wave the American flag over ANY Euro one...

 

And knowing that VW is screwing me, lying to me...I say phoque VW...and I say it quite easily I might add...

Edited September 28, 2015 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Buying North American is fine. No arguments there at all.

But, again, I'll be the wet blanket: whoever was in charge of Greece's finances was pretty dumb. And whoever rubber-stamped their financial plan in Brussels was pretty dumb. The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. And when everyone else's Euros were all burned through, they went to the Germans who, whatever issues they may have, are pretty good for work.

Now, Germany has what they have desired since the days of the Kaiser: control of Europe. And unlike the Kaiser or the Idiot, they did it accidentally, in the most boring way possible.

[oldshurst442]

This goes back to the 1990s....and the Euro-Zone wanting Greece to be in it...

 

Goldman and Sachs has something to do with that...as well as German Banks...

 

And ...the Euro-Zone...unlike in Canada...where the Provinces get transfer payments from the Federal Government and where ALL Provinces pitch in...and the Federal Government does its darndest to actually try get new jobs for the country and to equally displace these new found jobs...the Euro-Zone...mainly Germany were content to brain drain Greece and just make Greece live off of their fat of the land...you know...Tourism and Feta Cheese and Olive oil...

 

Greece is but a small country....how much olive oil do you think she makes?

How much do you think Germany pays for this olive oil?

 

How many VWs do you think Greek buy?

 

Who builds those VWs?

 

Fair trade?

 

Yeah...or I should say Ja!

Dont forget that Greece ALWAYS had a trade deficit...

 

Like I said...tourism goes down...BILLION dollar industry for Greece....and Greece is KAPUT...

 

WHat does Germany do to HELP Greece...NEIN!

Raise INTEREST RATES!!!

 

But Greeks dont work...because their economy is not an industrial one...

 

Sure...we could blame the hundreds of years BEFORE...the Ottoman Empire...and the corrupt crooked Greek politicians...the thing is...Greece is now part of the Euro-Zone...has been since 2002...never you mind the cooking of the books that Goldman Sachs did with German banks to squeeze Greece in ofr 2002...but of course...that SOLELY FALLS ON GREECE, right?

 

 

This is but a huge discussion...waaaaay beyong Volks ala Wagen...

 

And this thread IS about Volks ala Wagen...

 

So yeah...

just as how some Americans will NEVER forgive GM/Ford/Chrysler for the 1980s/1990s and for Pinto fires and Cobalt Igntion switches and K-Cars and the bankruptcy as I will NEVER forgive VW/Mercedes for WW2 and now for VW polluting...

 

Tit for tat is what I say...

 

And at the end of the day...buying a Veedub aint good for OUR economy...

Maybe for some models that are built in Mexico...but then again...TDi 'Clean' diesels aint so clean...

[hyperv6]

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

[hyperv6]

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

Winston Churchill

[oldshurst442]

And I guess you want to equate that to Greece...

 

You got lots to learn about why the Greek economy has failed in the Euro-Zone...

 

Coincidently on why the German one has SOARED since 2002...

 

France/Italy/Portugal/Spain/Greece....yup they are failing...

 

Blame socialism all you want...that is the EASY thing to do...

 

Like I said...it aint because Greeks are lazy...or their politicains corrupt...

 

But its OK...you are right...

 

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

 

 

Just dont tell that to  the Finns, Swedes, Norwegians and to a certain degree, Canadians...

 

Hell...even NAZI GERMANY...

 

Irony...a socialist program was called upon by Hitler for Germans to own that KDF VW Bug...

Edited September 28, 2015 by oldshurst442

[hyperv6]

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

Winston Churchill

You can spin socialism anyway you like but in the end the truth will be your undoing.

Sorry but Greece voted in their own problems and the devil has finally caught up to them. You can blame anyone you want but in the end when you let people vote the treasury you will be doomed to fail.

The fact is corporations have done much more good than bad. We all have generally progress from sitting in a hut somewhere to living in good homes. Well clothed and have luxuries our forefathers could never have considered.

This hate the rich and Corporations foolish. So many of them are good people and many have made their way from nothing. We should study them and learn what they did to make their lives successful honestly vs. sitting around bitching because someone did something wrong.

The fact is at VW only a couple people screwed up and they should be dealt with. But there are many honest hardworking people at VW that do a good job and with their wages help pay to let others like Greek restaurant owners who also make a good living thrive.

As for past wars and atrocities. Get over it. Remember what happened to not repeat it and forgive and move on. Dwelling on the sins of the past do nothing for all of us today. We share this planet and we are closer today then ever. This is a fact that can not be undone. If not we will face even worse atrocities.

As I fear now Europe is on the verge of some major issues. I see tough economic times. I see Religious and racial issues with the influx of Middle Easterners. This will all lead to major issue in the future. Again this will all be started by only a few of many people here.

[Guest wings4life]

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

 

One of my favorite quotes from the man.

used to have it as a sig, many moons ago.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[hyperv6]

A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

Winston Churchill

No that is not directed at Greece it was directed at your socialist rants.

As for VW they will survive.

If you're going through hell, keep going.

Winston Churchill

I have been reading a lot of Churchill of late.

And one last quote.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

Winston Churchill

I am done with this. You can make what ever case you want the but the reality of the truth is incontrovertible.

Finns, Swedes, Norwegians and to some degree Canadians are such small groups you can get away with it. As for larger groups like Russia, China, N Korea how are those working out for ya? Ever try to get on the internet in China?

Edited September 29, 2015 by hyperv6

[oldshurst442]

Like I said....you have no clue to why Greece's economy has failed...that are MANY reasons...

I aint blaming SOLELY Germany and NOT blaming Greeks and their decisions...but Germany's banks have had a stranglehold on Greece's economy for a loooong time...

 

I aint hatin' on the rich...

 

No where did I say I hate the rich...

 

You like to assume...

 

This is why you cant grasp the knowledge of why Greece's economy failing...you assume what you hear is correct...but dont care to learn the REAL truth...

 

You could give a pass corrupt corporate culture...and THAT is why in 2015 the planet is in the shytes...because YOU blindly defend the decisions some bankrupted morally individuals are doing...

 

No...I aint better than them...the thing is...my restaurant is run MORE ethically than VW execs...am I perfect? NO!

 

To say that I hate the rich...DUDE...I OWN A RESTAURANT...IM A BUSINESSMAN...You cant get more capitalist than that!!!

 

I wanna know though...

 

Is how Capitalism gets confused with I CAN DO WHATEVER THE PHOQUE I WANT, THE PHOQUE WITH WHAT THE LAWS SAYS AND THE PHOQUE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES?

 

THAT my friend is NOT what capitalism is...

 

A TRUE capitalist RESPECTS the LAWS of the land...and is MORAL and ETHICAL...

 

A CRIMINAL is NOT a CAPITALIST...

 

 

PS...You EVEN ADMITTED that to a degree...SOME socialist countries can and do succeed....so...there goes YOUR argument...

 

PSS: Winston Churchill was HATED the first time around he paraded in office...WW2 was the reason he was loved...LEADERSHIP qualities that the other guy did not have...ans so a GREAT PM...

 

PSSS:  The United States of America has MORE social programs than Canada has...

Edited September 29, 2015 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Some more boring/bland observations on a hot-button topic:

-Greece wanted in, otherwise it wouldn't be in.

-non-industrial economies can be lost in the shuffle if the population is also relatively small. Trust me-this one I know first-hand.

-"transfer payments between provinces" now mostly means money sent from Alberta, Sasketchewan, and Newfoundland (!) to Ontario and Quebec because governmental drunkenness and play-nice money, respectively.

-I love Northern Alberta. But I am not here because of the scenery. I am here to work. And while I understand that agriculture and whatnot are seasonal things, I am increasingly tired of throwing good money after bad. Needless to say, Trudeau and Mulcair will not be crossed off on my ballot in three weeks.

[oldshurst442]

- Euro-Zone wanted Greece...or else Greece would not have gotten in...

 

- non-industrial small countries...

This I agree...but...pertaining to Greece...Greece is in the Euro-Zone...what did the Euro-Zone do to help protect Greece from a world wide bank melt down?

 

The first austerity measures were put into place to help German Banks get outta trouble through the backs of Greeks...

 

With that aside...what else did the Euro-Zone do to not only to help Greece...but Spain, Italy, Portugal?

Let us not forget that Spain and Italy actually do have industry....

 

And what is France's problem?

You know...France is almost in the same danger as Greece...but they actually build shyte...and they also sell military hardware to anybody that wants to buy it...

 

Yeah..I know...socialism...

 

Quebec...social programs....actually...THAT is NOT what is KILLING Quebec...1 million plus Anglos leaving...many HQ corporations leaving Montreal to go to Toronto...because of the threat of separation and language laws...

 

Ontario...WTF is their problem? I dont know...Mayor Ford spent all that Ontario money on hookers and cocaine?

 

When the Province of Quebec and Montreal were THE economy of Canada...all things were well...and THAT includes Quebec GIVING to the West...so...the West MIGHT AS WELL GIVE BACK to the East today...

 

 

As far as Mulcair and Trudeau go...I wish one was Layton and the other Pierre Elliot....but since both are no longer with us...like you...both names will not be crossed off...I need to see which of the two corresponds with my vision of Canada better...

 

Quebec is on its way again...thanx to Couillard and Montreal too thanx to Mr Mayor Coderre...

[El Kabong]

As much as he was a lout, Rob Ford was, money-wise, the smartest mayor Toronto had in decades. If he didn't hit the pipe and get the cancer, he'd still be in that chair.

Quebec needs to be happy with Steven Harper's (politically risky for him, remember) admission that "Québécois are a nation within a united Canada." They can separate, but the money will then dry up. I'd rather not have a Canada United so cynically, all the same.

Finally, Greece, again: it takes two to tango. Neither side looks great, but sometimes you gotta struggle outta the crap. Just ask the Irish. Or the Newfies in Alberta...

[oldshurst442]

To be honest..I know not much about Ford. Only what we heard of him through the news...which was...of course..the bad stuff...

 

That is why I DONT want Harper...Quebecois and Quebec are NOT a nation within a United Canada....we are ALL effin' Canucks...no iffs, buts or ands..

 

No one Canadian is more Canadian then the next and no one Canadian is a special kind of Canadian...except me of course...Im special...

 

That and the F-35....He keeps pushing it...even when the US Air Force dont want it...

 

Yup...Greece now...has been given the tools to dig up their mess...its time for them to do some diggin'

 

The latest talks...Tsipras made some long term decisions that should benefit Greece...and Germany and Europe actually agreed to them...and to help...but it takes Greeks to do some very heavy lifting...in their own country...something that admittedly...did not do in the past...

 

Granted...Wars...independant freedom wars...civil wars, World Wars and foreign wars might have taken front and center...but like I keep on harpering...that is in the past...they are in the Euro-Zone...and finally, Europe is actually acting unified...

[El Kabong]

But this is where I'm actually happy with Harper: in that one statement, he was able to crystallize the place that Quebec truly has in Canada without nearly blowing up the country like Mulroney did with the Constitutional tweaking. They ARE a separate nation-people group- within a United Canada. As are the First Nations-people groups-within a United Canada.

Plus, the man is unspeakably boring. I find this perversely funny.

The F-35, sadly, is not shaping up to be what it was billed to be. This is not Harper's fault, or Trudeau's or Mulcair's for that matter. All I know is that our military-and those of many other places-will have to choose between stealth or agility as the prime criteria for a fighter. IMO, Harper's decision to push forward on buying them is probably the better idea.

[Suaviloquent]

The F35? Every detractor says its a pig; while the U.S. military brass and Lockheed say it's the best thing to come after I can't believe its not butter margarine.

 

The escalation of commitment by the U.S. DoD and concurrency have shredded the fighter apart. 

 

Now seriously, the thing has been in development for over a decade; and they have to retrofit every single one built thus far until they finally finish development. What a waste of time. It's the Acura's NSX of the Aviation industry. It's just never gonna be finished; because probably most of the design is compromised - either the Chinese or Iranians or North Koreans stole something about it; or some parts are already obsolete; or the fact that in order to keep cross-sections lower they lost some desirable characteristics of a fighter. It's a one size fits all solution. It's going to replace conventional fighters, assault aircraft, fighter bombers, and stealth reconnaissance planes.

 

It's not particularly fast, it's got a relatively short range; it's armament is reduced because of no fixed external hard points, and really it's only strength is stealth. In a world where technology evolves so rapidly and the disruptive nature becoming so apparent... if there's any advantage that this jet has; it won't last long against other, powerful nation states that could be potential combatants in the future. But sure, let's overkill the little mujaheddin fighter who stole a Mig-21 with a missile from miles away. 

 

I just think it's a hack. 

 

I don't particularly like Harper nor Mulcair; but I don't believe in Socialism; and Justin Trudeau... can someone show him the door please?

 

If the minor recession in Canada is being caused by oil only, then it's safe to presume boring Harper is the only sensible choice. What would Mulcair do? Tax the stuggling oil patche companies, and pander to unions or support disgusting Metrolinx. Neither are things I want.

[El Kabong]

Harper is the only logical choice, which is why he's a coin toss to get back in.

The closest example I can think of to the F-35 dilemma is the F-111 Aardvark. It kinda turned out well. Mostly. Eventually.

[hyperv6]

The true equal to the F-35 is the B1. It was over sold and under developed. The B1 was the safest place to be in the first Gulf War as they were not permitted to leave South Dakota.

They billions invested on electronic counter measurers fix a plane that should not have been fixed.

Culprit for the F-35 was Robert Gates as he pushed the Bush and then the Obama people away from the F-22 and to the F-35. There were such great political pressures to sell this plane globally vs. the F-22 in country. Also the price drove many to change their minds.

Today they are finding that they should have stayed with the F-22 as the price would have comedown with only a few more units and it was a much better plane. While it may not have had a vertical take off it was one plane that could take the place of 4 F-35 in the sky.

The real joke is China copies the F-35 and now has a poorer version. It look and flies like a F35 but has little of the electronics in it.

They will dump more billions in the F-35 to fix it and there are some moving to try to restart the F-22 line again. Time will tell.

What is sad as the F-35 would have never come from Lockheed under Kelly Johnson.